Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:The Passage/Archive 1

2006-12-10T04:25:08Z

Boonton: /* Tether? */

== I cried ==
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means ''it'' was '''really''' good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:You weren't the only one, Shane. You weren't the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says "we'll learn more about a character in this episode," prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :'( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Tether? ==

Why didn't Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn't lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don't know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn't occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while ''outside'' of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Likely for the same reason Galactica has to close flight pods: Each ship's ftl drive is only capable of allowing it to jump, dragging a raptor along likely is no more possible the for galactica to jump with deployed flight pods. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

I'm sorry but this part of the story still doesn't make sense to me. Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates? If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Likely because the Raptor's sensors cant operate from inside a metal, radiation shielded landing bay... They werent designed for that type of use. Also, it may be very likely that many ships lack a landing bay, instead relying on airlocks to connect to other ships. --[[User:Ghilz|Ghilz]] 21:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

:It still doesn't make sense to me. Why not weld the raptor directly to the out hull of the civilian ships? If the rapter's computers are so well shielded why not just wrap the computers of the civilian ships in protective armour. Clearly the jump computers are small enough to be contained in a small rapter so the amount of material necessary to harden them couldn't be all that much

==Did Kat Die?==
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378
:It's glaringly obvious that she died. We didn't need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat's leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show's writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I'd say it's better that we didn't see her actual death. Death scenes ''can'' a clicé if not done right. Just showing its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)

U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but it probably "confirms" her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there's no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)

:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear.
:* We're told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat's turns black twice
:* Kara gives her "sleeping pills ... enough"
:* When Adama tells Kat he's promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she's not making it out of sick bay. He does.
:* Kat isn't present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn't available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.
:So, the answer to the question "Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?" is "so the audience would know that she died".
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)

She was A good Character, Snorkel378

:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

No doubt, Kat's dead. All the reasons above. The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick. And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation. Most people don't realize how dangerous radiation is because we don't deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you. I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat. There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.

Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story. Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D'Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story. Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Anti-Radiation Meds ==

Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds. I'm not sure why the returning rapters & pilots were subject to decontamination washing. I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material. A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine. I've read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure. But washing wouldn't solve the problem. The 'hot' ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Fourth squadron leader ==

As we saw at the end of this episode, ''Galactica'' has four squadrons of pilots under the command of CAG. The squadron leaders were (before Kat's death, of course): Starbuck, Kat, Two Times and... Did anyone notice who was the fourth? -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 20:44, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Two Times was the name of the third squad leader? Could only make out the word "Times" :) You've got better eyes then I do.
::It was Ricky "Two Times" Richardson. I'm currently completely updating the List of Pilots page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:The Passage/Archive 1

2006-12-10T02:22:01Z

Boonton: /* Anti-Radiation Meds */

== I cried ==
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means ''it'' was '''really''' good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:You weren't the only one, Shane. You weren't the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says "we'll learn more about a character in this episode," prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :'( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Tether? ==

Why didn't Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn't lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don't know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn't occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while ''outside'' of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)

I'm sorry but this part of the story still doesn't make sense to me. Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates? If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Kat Die?==
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378
:It's glaringly obvious that she died. We didn't need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat's leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show's writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I'd say it's better that we didn't see her actual death. Death scenes ''can'' a clicé if not done right. Just showing its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)

U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but it probably "confirms" her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there's no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)

:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear.
:* We're told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat's turns black twice
:* Kara gives her "sleeping pills ... enough"
:* When Adama tells Kat he's promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she's not making it out of sick bay. He does.
:* Kat isn't present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn't available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.
:So, the answer to the question "Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?" is "so the audience would know that she died".
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)

She was A good Character, Snorkel378

:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

No doubt, Kat's dead. All the reasons above. The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick. And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation. Most people don't realize how dangerous radiation is because we don't deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you. I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat. There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.

Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story. Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D'Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story. Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Anti-Radiation Meds ==

Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds. I'm not sure why the returning rapters & pilots were subject to decontamination washing. I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material. A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine. I've read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure. But washing wouldn't solve the problem. The 'hot' ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:22, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Talk:The Passage/Archive 1

2006-12-10T02:21:31Z

Boonton: /* Anti-Radiation Meds */

== I cried ==
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means ''it'' was '''really''' good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:You weren't the only one, Shane. You weren't the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says "we'll learn more about a character in this episode," prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :'( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Tether? ==

Why didn't Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn't lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don't know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn't occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while ''outside'' of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)

I'm sorry but this part of the story still doesn't make sense to me. Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates? If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Kat Die?==
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378
:It's glaringly obvious that she died. We didn't need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat's leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show's writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I'd say it's better that we didn't see her actual death. Death scenes ''can'' a clicé if not done right. Just showing its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)

U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but it probably "confirms" her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there's no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)

:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear.
:* We're told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat's turns black twice
:* Kara gives her "sleeping pills ... enough"
:* When Adama tells Kat he's promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she's not making it out of sick bay. He does.
:* Kat isn't present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn't available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.
:So, the answer to the question "Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?" is "so the audience would know that she died".
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)

She was A good Character, Snorkel378

:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

No doubt, Kat's dead. All the reasons above. The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick. And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation. Most people don't realize how dangerous radiation is because we don't deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you. I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat. There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.

Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story. Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D'Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story. Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Anti-Radiation Meds ==

Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Perhaps this section should be titled just radiation rather than anti-radiation meds. I'm not sure why the returning rapters & pilots were subject to decontamination washing. I was under the impression the cluster had intense radiation because of so many stars so close together....not because it was filled with radioactive material. A ship inside the cluster would be exposed to intense radiation but as soon as it jumped out it would be fine. I've read the neutron bombs feed metal an intense amount of neutron s and metal objects like tanks could give off residual radiation up to two weeks after exposure. But washing wouldn't solve the problem. The 'hot' ships would have to be put aside until they cooled down.

Talk:The Passage/Archive 1

2006-12-10T02:15:37Z

Boonton: /* Tether? */

== I cried ==
When I watched the episode tonight, I cried at the end. It was a really sad ending. If an episode makes me cry, that means ''it'' was '''really''' good. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:31, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:I was just left in shock. What a way to die...and to do it knowingly while saving a civilian ship... [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:46, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:You weren't the only one, Shane. You weren't the only one. Note to Self: When an episode summary says "we'll learn more about a character in this episode," prepare for mourning. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:42, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I love Kat, I also shed a tear. :'( --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Tether? ==

Why didn't Galactica just tether the Raptors to their ships? Or use the magnetic clamps that Raptors have to literally attach to the ships? They wouldn't lose any ships, it would save time, and be safer all at the same time. - [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 09:21, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Jumping is precise, but not that precise. We don't know if a Jump between tethered ships, if they didn't occur simultaneously, would be a fatal move, or do nothing. In any case, the intense heat and buffeting in the cloud would likely make a tether snap or melt and be worthless. Magnetic clamping might have been possible given that Vipers that perform combat landings hold themselves fast within Galactica. However, performing a Jump while ''outside'' of another ship (which is also Jumping) is probably a Bad Idea. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)

I'm sorry but this part of the story still doesn't make sense to me. Why did the raptors have to be outside of the ships to give them jump coordinates? If radiation would fry the civilian ship computers why not simply park a raptor in their landing bays and let their computers do the work.--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 20:15, 9 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Kat Die?==
I know this is a stupid question but why did starbuck a picture of her in the memorial hall? Snorkel378
:Yes, she died because she received a twice-fatal dose of radiation --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:10, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Then WHy did Adama Still MAke Her CAG? WHo would make someone who is dead Be A CAG. And We never saw her die. snorkel378
:It's glaringly obvious that she died. We didn't need to see her last breath to know it. She received two fatal doses. She was dying in sickbay. Kara gave her pills if she wanted to comitt suicide, because dying from radiation poisoning is extremly ugly.
:The promotion is a honorary and morale thing. It was merely posthumous, but Apollo is still the acting CAG. Adama thought that Kat's leadership and bravery are a good example for the crew --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:19, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:Kat does die; there is no way for her to survive extreme radiation poisoning. However, the show's writers do not show this to enhance the drama of the moment. (Oh, Snorkel, to make an automatic signature, place four tilde characters (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) at the end of your entry.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::I'd say it's better that we didn't see her actual death. Death scenes ''can'' a clicé if not done right. Just showing its impact on the other character was far better and more effective IMO --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:27, 9 December 2006 (CST)

U guys know that this is a thery, we would have to ask the writer. Come on what if she is still insickbay some later episode in rehab? then waht would you guys say. OO and KAra gave Kat Skin rebuilds she even said that in the scene. So u might be alive but we should not be so quick to say she died because there is no ground proof. Snorkel378 P.S. i dont give a damn about an automatic signature
:She gave her an overdose of sleeping pills. And I haven't listened to the podcast yet, but it probably "confirms" her death --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Yep, the podcast confirms that Kat died. Just got done listening. And Snorkel, there's no need to get ratty, we just try to help :) --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:41, 9 December 2006 (CST)

:While the podcast does make it explicit, the story as aired makes it clear.
:* We're told that flying after the tag turns black is lethal. Kat's turns black twice
:* Kara gives her "sleeping pills ... enough"
:* When Adama tells Kat he's promoting her, she asks him herself if he knows that she's not making it out of sick bay. He does.
:* Kat isn't present when her promotion is announced. This would only happen if not only she wasn't available at the time but she never would be. If she will recover, you wait until she can be present.
:* Finally, Starbuck posts her picture on the memory wall.
:So, the answer to the question "Why did Starbuck put her picture on the wall?" is "so the audience would know that she died".
:What makes the show so appealing to me is the quality of the writing. They take the time to tell the story through the character interaction, the emotional moments. They could have had her die on screen when she collapsed and made it explicit. But instead, they write it more powerfully. --[[User:Brons|Brons]] 11:45, 9 December 2006 (CST)

::Excellent points, Brons. Another example of writing that sets BSG above other shows. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:49, 9 December 2006 (CST)

She was A good Character, Snorkel378

:Agreed. She was one of my favourite characters :( --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 11:37, 9 December 2006 (CST)
::Poor Kat :( *wipes away tears* --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 12:07, 9 December 2006 (CST)

No doubt, Kat's dead. All the reasons above. The wall is a memorial for those who are dead, not those who are sick. And it was even in the news a former Russian spy just got wacked (assasinated by Russia) a couple weeks ago with just a small dose of radiation. Most people don't realize how dangerous radiation is because we don't deal with it on a day-to-day basis, but just a little bit can kill you. I feel that all those pilots were getting more than a small dose, other than just Kat. There could be reprocutions for all of them in the future as their health deteriorates over time.

Kat dying in this way, they could have nixed the B side story to flesh out her story. Kat was a very compelling character and her going out, well, the whole D'Anna dying over-and-over thing and the Baltar 3-way is getting boring and tedious so they could have spent more time with the Kat story. Even thus, They still did a good job of making a dramatic finish even if the story could have used a few more details.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 13:01, 9 December 2006 (CST)
:The Baltar and Three storyline is neither boring nor tedious and had only four short scenes in this episode. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:18, 9 December 2006 (CST)

== Anti-Radiation Meds ==

Part of the summary here suggests that there were no anti-rad doses to go around for any of the pilots. I thought that at some were given to the skeleton crews of the civilian ships. Am I right on this one? [[User:Steel viper|Steel viper]] 18:38, 9 December 2006 (CST)

A Measure of Salvation

2006-11-13T15:55:46Z

Boonton: /* Questions */

{{Episode Data
| title= A Measure of Salvation
| image= Amos.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 7
| guests= [[Lucy Lawless]] as [[Number Three]]
| writer= [[Michael Angeli]]
| story=
| director= [[Bill Eagles]]
| production= 307
| rating=
| US airdate= November 10, 2006
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= 41,420
| prev= [[Torn]]
| next= [[Hero]]
}}

== Overview ==
:''[[Lee Adama|Apollo]] and [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] are dispatched to interrogate the dying [[Cylons]] on board the infected baseship, and learns how [[Baltar]] is helping their adversaries; the virus inspires [[Lee]] to come up with a new strategy.''

== Summary ==
=== On ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' ===
*A boarding party comprising of [[Raptor]]s and [[Viper Mark VII|Vipers]] investigate the derelict [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]]. Among the boarding party are [[Lee Adama|Apollo]] and [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]].
*Aboard the derelict, [[marines]] explore the corridors, finding the [[Cylon agent|Cylons]] dead. Athena attempts to access the derelict basestar's [[Hybrid]], but is unsuccessful.
*Some "skinjobs" around the control center revive and advise the boarding party of the situation regarding the probe and subsequent infection of the Cylons. One of the infected Cylons, a [[Number Eight]], addresses Athena as "traitor."
*The boarding party and prisoners are en route back to ''Galactica'' when the basestar self-destructs.
*''Galactica'' quarantines the boarding party and prisoners while Dr. [[Cottle]] finds out if the virus affects humans. The human members of the boarding party are cleared while Athena is ordered to stay put, as her blood work hasn't been done. [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] is infuriated, but wants to be notified as soon as her results are available.
*Dr. Cottle's investigation identifies [[Lymphocytic encephalitis|a virus]] that can be treated, but not cured for Cylons. [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]], [[William Adama|Admiral Adama]], Lee Adama, and Helo discuss the idea of taunting the vaccine in exchange for information. A [[Simon]] is brought before them, and informs them that the entire baseship was abandoned, because [[Resurrection (RDM)|resurrection]] would infect the others. He also mentions that [[Gaius Baltar]] provided the information on the path to [[Earth]].
*Aboard ''[[Colonial One]]'', Lee Adama suggests a plan to eliminate the entire Cylon race by executing their prisoners in range of a [[Resurrection Ship]], where the downloaded consciousnesses would infect the remaining Cylons, because according to [[Simon]] the virus carries a bioelectric feedback component that could spread it even through the download process. Helo scoffs at the idea, considering it genocide.
*Aboard ''Galactica'', Athena finds she's immune because of antibodies generated within her body by carrying her daughter, [[Hera]]. Helo tells her of the Fleet's plan, and Athena understands.
*Admiral Adama shows slight dissent about the plan, indicating regulations that forbid him to proceed without presidential order. Despite the ethical ramifications, the President authorizes the biological attack.
*''Galactica'' jumps to a Cylon supply line, and launches Vipers and Raptors to attract the Cylon fleet. In the midst of this, Helo initiates a plan to thwart the execution, unplugging what looks like a standard power connector from an environmental control box.
*The Cylons jump into the area, with Resurrection Ship in tow. Adama orders the execution of the prisoners.
*Lee Adama leads a team to execute the prisoners, but finds that all the prisoners have been killed prior to the Resurrection Ship arriving. Adama orders a recall, and ''Galactica'' escapes without sustaining any major damage.
*Helo converses with Athena about his actions. He maintains that what he did was right, regardless of the consequences.
*Aboard ''Galactica'', Adama reports that the prisoners were suffocated due to a failure in the environmental controls. Roslin is quick to point out one or two might be responsible, but Adama closes the issue. Subsequently, the virus was most likely an accidental exposure, similar to one reported 3000 years ago. Adama points out that they're on the right track to Earth, but Roslin notes that the Cylons are on the right track as well.

=== On a [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] ===

*Aboard the bastestar, Baltar is being interrogated by Three and Caprica-Six, knowing about the beacon. Three and Caprica-Six imply that Baltar is connected to the virus and to Galactica. Baltar attempts to reconcile, only to be confronted by Centurions.
*In his "projection", his mental Six tells him to relax. Meanwhile, his body is being subjected to torture; Caprica Six is visibly disturbed by the torture and backs away.
*Baltar's torture continues as Three continues to interrogate Baltar regarding his supposed involvement with the virus. In his mind, he attemps to avert the pain by making love to his mental Six. Despite extreme pain, Baltar endures.

== Questions ==

* If [[Adama]] had brought the beacon aboard, what kind of information would it have given them about the location of Earth?
* Will [[Caprica-Six]] continue to stand by and permit Baltar's mistreatment at their hands?
* Where is Caprica-Six's own internal Baltar in all of this?
* Of the Cylons, which type told the basestar to self-destruct: The [[Hybrid]] or a [[Cylon agent]]? Considering her odd look after the destruction, might it have been [[Athena]]?
* What kind of new start are the [[Cylon]]s planning for [[Earth]]? Just a new home planet, an attempt at human Cylon relations not tainted by the destruction of the Twelve Colonies, or something else?
* Why did an entire Cylon fleet (including a [[Resurrection Ship]]) jump to the encounter with ''Galactica''? Why was the [[Resurrection Ship]] not left behind somewhere else, as it was done in previous battles?
* Is D'anna in love with Baltar?
* Why is [[Gaeta]] so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?
* Why does [[Simon]] so quickly claim science can not provide a solution to the infection?
* Why wasn't the execution squad in place and waiting with the prisoners so the plan could have been implemented in a timely manner?
* Since the plan was to execute the prisoners then jump away, why wasn't the jump drive already spun up and ready?
* The environmental controls seem to have been circumvented by [[Karl Agathon]] pulling a single plug. In a combat ship aren't there cascading fail safe systems to protect against such catastrophic failures from simple system malfunctions?
* In his discussion with [[Laura Roslin]] at the end of the episode, [[Admiral Adama]] is aware that sabotage was involved in the death of the Cylon prisoners, yet he states there will be no investigation. While he might be relieved that the plan wasn't carried out, wouldn't he be seriously concerned and want to aggressively pursue this matter?
*Why was Sharon Agathon kept in quarantine after Cottle determined that humans were immune? Whether infected or not, she couldn't have transmitted the disease to anyone else, other than Cylon agents that may still be in the fleet.
* The half-human fetal cells that gave her protection could have worked in reverse, the virus could have mutated into a version that 'jumped species' and attacked humans as well as cyclons. Even with immunity it makes sense to limit contact with those cyclons that may be ill or on their way to becomming ill.
*[[Baltar]] calls the [[Number Three]] torturing him "D'anna". Is she, or at least does Baltar believe she is, the same number 3 that was previously masquerading in the fleet as a reporter?
*Has Starbuck regained full flight status, because she tried to pull her life together at the end of "[[Torn]]", or does she participate in the battle due to a pressing need for pilots?
*Will there be any consequences of the sabotage for Helo and Athena from other crewmembers who may figure they are behind said sabotage? How will this affect Helo's reputation as a Cylon-lover or his credibility as XO.
*Since the Cylon prisoners died after the jump, did they download and spread the infection despite Helo's sabotage? Raiders generally operate within range of a Resurrection Ship and Galactica encountered two raiders immediately after the jump.

== Analysis ==

*The Cylons could have cured themselves of this plague relatively quickly, if ''Galactica'' had succeeded in infecting them. It was quickly noted in the episode that Sharon was immune herself because fetal cells from [[Hera]] created effective antibodies against the virus. Hera is immune to the virus because she is a hybrid Human-Cylon. Now that she is in custody of the Cylons, Baltar could have utilized her immunity, as he previously did on Roslin, as capital to further his self-preservation amongst them.
**It can be assumed that executing the captured Cylons will send them back to the Resurrection ship, thus infecting the Cylon network. However, the Human-Cylon hybrid has no extra copies on the Resurrection ship to transfer into, thus the antibodes will not be spread into the Cylon Network.
*The wider implications of such an event could have been religiously meaningful to the Cylons. Cylons have time and again shown religious deference by sometimes overlooking rational explinations. By saving the Cylon race Hera could have been elevated to messiah status, if her very creation has not already ordained her as one to the Cylons because their God proclaimed her creation.
**The presence of Hera is profound enough to the Cylons, which could be preventing them from seeing that Hera could be used as a tool.
*There is a fundamental flaw in the plan [[Lee Adama|Apollo]] develops: Even if the virus successfully infects the [[Resurrection Ship]], the other Cylons would isolate that individual ship, thus preventing a widespread epidemic. The resulting impact on the Cylon fleet would be no greater than previous destruction of the Resurrection Ship in "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]".
**Apollo's plan is based on an account of the Cylon analysis of the threat; he could simply assume they are correct and that the virus can spread like wildfire from one Resurrection Ship to another.
**Also, by infecting a greater mass of ships, Galactica could board the ships, take much needed resources and more infected Cylons for further use as biological weapons.
*The science of the virus is somewhat questionable. While the biological aspect is sound, the existence of a "bioelectrical feedback component" appears to be technobabble. It would be impossible for a biological virus (i.e. a physical pathogen) to be transmitted by download to the Resurrection Ship. Such a feedback - scrambling the brainwave patterns - could disturb the download process, but it is unclear how it could spread the virus itself on the other side.
**From Dr. Cottle's dialogue, it would appear that the problem lies with how the Cylon's immune systems react with the virus, more than the virus itself. If this is the case it is likely that the immune system's reaction would carry though the download and possibly pass to other Cylons through the network. Or this could all be reading too much into a simple plot device.
*Adama's reaction to the premature death of the prisoners is yet another example of what are simultaneously his greatest virtues and most glaring flaws - his dedication to those under his command, and his need to keep his conscience clear.
*In this episode, [[Raptors]] are shown loaded to the teeth with weapons systems. In the past ([[Miniseries]], [[The Hand of God]]), Raptors have rarely been depicted in actual combat, preferring instead to hang back while coordinating battlefield logistics. They have been shown armed in a few prior episodes ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]], [[Fragged]]), but this is by far their most prominent combat role to date. The Raptors are using the external missile pods and cannons introduced in "Exodus, Part [[Exodus, Part I|I]] & [[Exodus, Part II|II]]" and engage in the same maneuver used to launch the decoy drones during the Battle of New Caprica.
*The genetic pool the Cylons were created from predates the human immunity to the plague from just a couple hundred years ago, yet the Cylons, even as a class of machines, are only 40 to 60 years old. This indicates another, non-Colonial, source for the DNA.
*The genetic pool need not be so old. Because humans had been completely immune to this virus for hundreds of years, the Cylons may have simply overlooked it while creating their humanoid models.
*It seems this virus could also be a fairly reliable (although not conclusive) litmus test to for Cylons in the Colonial Fleet.
*Dr. Cottle explains that Cylons carry antibodies that break down the RNA of his proposed vaccine. However antibodies have no degradative functionality, and indeed only prime recognised pathogens for phagocytosis. Also as vaccines are developed from the pathonogenic organism (or a close relative) it would be impossible for Cylon's to carry antibodies specific for the vaccine RNA (or for the products it encodes) or otherwise they would be immune to the pathonogenic virus itself.
*It seems reasonable to assume that if Baltar is not infected with the virus, he is not a Cylon, likewise for all members of the Galactica crew that boarded the Base Ship.
**Baltar was in an isolation suit the entire time he was on the basestar. Using standard biohazard procedures, he would have remained in the suit which would have been disinfected from the outside before he took it off.

== Notes ==
*[[Survivor count|Fleet population]] is 41,420. Barring any births, there is an unaccounted loss of at least two since "[[Torn]]".
*The story behind the Lion Nebula beacon and the virus may have been inspired by the lunar lander [[wikipedia:Surveyor 3|Surveyor 3]]. Before launching in 1967, its camera was accidentally contaminated by a common bacterium. When the camera was recovered by Apollo 12 astronauts, the microbes returned to life, having survived two and a half years of vacuum, radiation, and temperature extremes.
*This is the first episode in which [[Saul Tigh]] has not appeared, more than likely due to his promise to William Adama at the end of "Torn" after Adama's confrontation with both Tigh and Kara Thrace. Currently, the only characters to have appeared in every episode are [[Laura Roslin]] and [[William Adama]].
*Helo has been promoted to the rank of Captain, as evident in both dialogue and costuming.
*Starbuck appears to have returned to flight status following her decision to pull herself together at the end of "[[Torn]]".
*Dr. Cottle identifies the disease as [[Lymphocytic encephalitis]], however [[w:encephalitis|encephalitis]] is a condition (swelling of the brain) that can be caused by a pathogen, not a pathogen itself. More likely the pathogen is [[wikipedia:Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus|Lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus]].

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==

* [[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief Petty Officer [[Galen Tyrol]]
* [[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Captain [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
* [[Alessandro Juliani]] as Lt. [[Felix Gaeta]]
* [[Kandyse McClure]] as [[Anastasia Dualla]]
* [[Rick Worthy]] as [[Simon]]
* [[Callum Keith Rennie]] as [[Leoben Conoy]]
* [[Donnelly Rhodes]] as Doctor [[Cottle]]
* [[Matthew Bennett]] as [[Number Five]]
* [[Bodie Olmos]] as Lt. [[Brendan Constanza|Brendan "Hot Dog" Constanza]]
* [[Leah Cairns]] as Lt. [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
* [[imdb:nm0669826|Eileen Pedde]] as Sgt. [[Mathias]]
* [[imdb:nm0461101|Tiffany Lyndall-Knight]] as [[Hybrid]] (credited)

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Michael Angeli]]
[[Category:RDM]]

A Measure of Salvation

2006-11-13T15:47:53Z

Boonton: /* Questions */

Talk:A Measure of Salvation/Archive 1

2006-11-13T15:39:04Z

Boonton: /* Some Poor Writing */

==Picture?==
Is that picture from A Measure of Salvation? I don't remember Three and Six projecting themselves into a forest. The outfits they are wearing look like what they wore while torturing Baltar, so maybe it's from a deleted scene. Unless I've forgotten the scene for some reason, shouldn't we get a picture that actually came from the episode? -- [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 12:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Some Poor Writing ==

Attention to detail is what has set BSG apart from so many other science-fiction shows - including Mr. Moore's Star Trek franchises. So I was very disappointed last night to see the sloppy errors piling up deep. I'd have to see the epsiode again to list them all, but mainly them problems concerned the virus.

The scene where potentially infected Galactica crew are "quarantined", together with Sharon, in a room with cold-storage plastic flaps was ridiculous.

It's preposterous to think that a cylon would casually betray his race for the anti-viral drug. He has no assurance that he won't be double-crossed, and he certainly - even after torture - wouldn't spell out the danger the virus poses to the cylon fleet. The audience isn't stupid and neither should the Galctica crew be. Seeing Lee with a dim little lightbulb over his head was just insulting to us all.

Past episodes have cleary shown that cylon ressurection occurs over significant distances, (greater than FTL jumps), and that calls into question the fundemental logistics of Adama's infection plan.

There would be no reason to jump Galactica itself, just sending one raptor with a cylon transponder and one infected cylon would have done the trick. (Nevermind the ease with which two cylon raiders almost instantly materialize into a whole cylon fleet with a resurrectionship conveniently in tow.)

The analysis on the episode summary page provides an excellent plot device allowing the raid to "succeed" thus justifying the major build-up of the two part story. In fact, it would have made a superb three part arc.

Hypothetical episode 3: Spend some realistic period of time finding a reasonably sized cylon fleet, infect them, virus begins spreading throughout area covered by the "local" resurrection ship. Cylons scramble to head off disease, Baltar gains points by developing Hera vaccine, cylons survive but with major "body-blow" giving Galactica and fleet some breathing room as they prepare to investigate the new lead to Earth.

Please don't get me wrong, I love this show, but sci-fi writing has always been done on the cheap and it make my eyes roll as I struggle to care about characters forced through non-sensical plot contortions. Please, Mr. Moore, DON'T LET BSG SINK TO THE SAME SAD FATE! I'm trusting that this was just a hiccup not a trend.

--[[User:IanB|IanB]] 13:08, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:In defense of the writers, I think you are wrong on two points:
:*Jumping Galactica makes sense. In [[Scar]] Cylon Raiders are engaging in skirmishes despite the absence of a resurrection ship. A Raptor is not a big enough threat to guarantee the presence of a resurrection ship. If one isn't in range by accident the Cylons would probably engage the Raptor without it and take a minor risk of permanently loosing a few raiders. And after [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]] the Cylons could be exspected to take a closer look to any unexpected Raptors with a Cylon transponder showing up. If they destroy it without a resurrection ship in range, the plans failed. Also Racetrack stated last episode that there is a shortage of Raptors in the fleet, noone is going to be eager to sacrifice one. Jumping Galactica ensures the Cylon require lots of forces, expect lot's of casualties and have a resurrection ship nearby, though I could have done without seeing it arrive on the battlefield, that's bad and inconsistent strategy, just to make sure the audience knows that it is in range.

:*There is probably a greater timespan between arrival of the patrol and that of the strikeforce then shown onscreen. Helo manipulates the oxygen-system after the jump, nevertheless the prisoners are already dead by the time the resurrection ship appears, indicating a least a few minutes have passed. The process can be seen in [[Flight of the Phoenix]] in the firing range scene (it's likely that Helo manipulated the same system).

:Two more plotholes I noticed: How do the Colonials know the Cylon supply lines? And given that they know Athena is immune because she's given birth to a hybrid child, they should wonder if there a more human-cylon hybrids. Even without knowing that Hera is still alive, if the massive Cylon effort to create hybrids resulted in creating at least one more hybrid the cylons would take a blow, but would not be exstinct. By the way it would be nice if we would hear something about these efforts. When Hera is shown for the first time in Cylon hands would be a good opportunity to close that chapter with a throwaway line that all these efforts were fruitless and stopped. [[User:Nevfennas|Nevfennas]] 11:24, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: That's an interesting question -- one that I had myself, actually. Even if the effort didn't destroy the Cylon race (and I think that goal is overly optimistic), the virus would have given a serious blow to the Cylons, which would only serve to give the survivors more breathing room -- not to metion the increase in general morale, which the survivors seriously need after the farce at New Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I would have to agree the writing is poor. The series seems to be drifting from its roots and moving into the Hollywood PC political statement world. This season has already thrown in suicide bombing and implied it was acceptable, now there is a drift into making political statements about biological weapons (even though nuclear weapons have been freely used in the past.) It seems the writers are abandoning their science fiction roots and reaching to make their own personal social or political commentary. I do hope they get back to what I considered truly exceptional science fiction and stop these editorials.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 00:06, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Followup: According to and article on the Gateworld site ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/10/season_three_ratings_slip_from_premiere.shtml]) the ratings have been slipping. As much as I truly love this show, I know my wife and I were both rather disgusted with the previous inclusion of the suicide bombers and now the “loss of humanity” references associated with the potential use of biological weapons. I have also heard complaints from two of our friends. I’m concerned that if this direction is continued it will not only ruin the show, it will also drive away viewers resulting in cancelation. As a long time science fiction fan (I even remember watching the original showings of Lost in Space and the first Star Trek) this has been my all time favorite show up until now. I would hate to see it have an early demise. As I mentioned above, I hope the writers can return to science fiction and entertainment.--[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 16:13, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:: Ratings have been slipping for ''SG-1'' and ''Atlantis'' as well; neither have the strong allegories to today's world, or the world of yesteryear for that matter. So I don't fully buy that there's a direct correlation between the creative direction BSG is going and the loss in viewership. Actually, one could probably argue (more successfully in my informed opinion) that the loss of ratings has more to do with Sci-Fi's scheduling decisions of breaking up the "Three Amigos" (''Stargate SG-1'', ''Stargate Atlantis'' and ''Battlestar Galactica''). As for the "loss of humanity" and suicide bombing themes, these have existed since the miniseries (Number Five's suicide bombing attempt in "[[Litmus]]" and Adama's speech in the miniseries and platitudes since then). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:53, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::: In my very informed opinion, I would have to disagree on several points. While time slots and lineup can affect ratings, this usually is reflected in those of the shows with the weaker individual draw. Galactica is a cornerstone show which should draw up the ratings for those around it rather than have such a slump from a lineup change.

::: As for the previous Friday lineup, SG-1 ratings have steadily declined since the departure of Richard Dean Anderson. His departure also seemed to coincide with decline in the quality of the writing, though I’m not convinced the two were related rather than just coincidental. I have always believed the SG Atlantis was the weak link in that lineup and was carried by its position between SG-1 and BSG. As mentioned in the article I referenced above, Dr. Who, which leads into BSG, has had poor ratings this season. I believe the replacement of the very likable actor playing the title role, though consistent with the original BBC series, was a detriment to this series. In addition, this season’s writing has seemed less creative and entertaining. I greatly enjoyed their first season, but have found the current one to be rather dull and uninteresting. This certainly doesn’t help with the Galactica ratings, but I don’t believe it is the major factor in the decline.

::: The introduction of controversial topics into plot lines is often risky, particularly with science fiction which is typically considered pure escapism, even when it has a dark element like BSG (i.e.: The potential extermination of the human race and the continued threat from the Cylon.) Generally, Sci-Fi fans want to escape the real world and be entertained, not lectured on the writers’ political or social views of modern events. While any controversial topic is a risk, the introduction of those that are currently so polarizing is almost a guarantee of distancing a significant portion of your fan base.

::: You associated the bombing executed by a Cylon against those carried out by human suicide bombers. The two aren’t even remotely comparable. The first was not executed by a human, was not condoned by the humans, and was executed by an individual who (as already had been established) would be reborn (“downloaded”) into a new body, but as the same individual. The later was not only condoned by members of the upper human leadership, it was presented as a reasonable and acceptable approach in a given situation – a strong statement considering current world events. (As someone who’s nephew’s squad was attacked by the first suicide bomber in the gulf war, killing many of his squad just a few yards in front of him, I will freely admit to strong personal feelings in this matter. None the less, such controversial plot elements are invariably going to strongly offend a significant number of viewers.) The inference that the humans must limit their use of weapons against an enemy bent on the genocide of humanity is another PC component. Biological weapons as a plot element would have been better completely left out rather than used as a mechanism for additional political commentary. Remember, people watch for entertainment, not a reminder of current events or a thinly disguised lecture from Hollywood writers on their political and social opinions.

::: It is also rather telling that the ratings dropped rather significantly after the season 3 premiere (where suicide bombings by humans were introduced and condoned.) I’ll be interested in seeing how the ratings are affected after this latest one sided (read: “PC”) foray into contemporary controversial issues.

::: --[[User:GeorgeW|GeorgeW]] 20:40, 12 November 2006 (CST)

::::I doubt that the suicide bombings in Occupation and Precipice were "condoned" by the show. Roslin didn't like them. Tigh, who planned them, thought they were bad. Even Baltar (who's been developing a conscience this season, thank the Gods) didn't like them. The first was a waste of life and counterproductive, causing a massive Cylon freakout that would have killed off Roslin, Zarek, Cally and a bunch of other people if the resistance hadn't saved them in the last minute. The second took down the power grid, which was more helpful, but it should be noted that in this case the bomber didn't kill any civilians, just herself and some Cylons. Tigh is still suffering because of the choices he made on New Caprica, and it doesn't look like he's coming out of those moral woods anytime soon.

::::Furthermore, I don't think the show has condemned the use of the Cylon virus, either. Roslin was all about it, after all, and I don't think there's anything less PC than a schoolteacher with a Messiah complex jonesing for some genocide. --[[User:Noindiecred|Noindiecred]] 22:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)

:::: The use of nuclear weapons are logical in a space setting where great distances are involved and ships are heavily armoured. I would suspect, though, that a Presidential order would have been required to use nukes on the surface of a populated planet. The use of bio-weapons would probably have similiar restrictions because of their nature. I disagree that this show was PC. The weapon that the humans stumbled upon had a unique ability to wipe out the entire race of cyclons. To use it does carry far more ethical problems than simply using a nuke on a basestar. To use a rl analogy even during WWII the US would have been reluctant to have used a weapon that would have destroyed every Japanese person on the planet--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 09:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)

== Explanations ==

A note about the Resurection ship jumping into the battle... it would seem that this is actually a good tactical move from the Cylon perspective. After Pegasus and Galactica easily destroyed the first resurrection ship and it's escorts, it would be prudent for the Cylons to keep the new ship with their fleet... even if this means taking it into battle with them. From their point of view it might look as if Galactica was trying to sucker the baseships away from the resurrection ship so the colonials could attack it. They've already used the "sucker" strategy a number of times, we could just be seeing a Cylon reaction to that strategy. Bringing the ship with them would negate such a threat as several basestars (more than enough to hold galactica off) would be able to cover for it.

As far as supply lines, it would figure that Galactica would know about this. Basic military strategy is to harass or at least keep an eye on enemy supply lines.

Also a note about the raptors and their missiles. The colonials may have found, after the battle over new caprica, that the missile attachments for the raptors were effective and could be adapted for other (combat) uses as well. It would also figure that after the loss of Pegasus, the colonials would be trying everything they could to increase firepower. This is probably just a jury-rig solution for increasing galactica's firepower.

== About Gaeta ==
Looking at the question here:

: Why is Gaeta so surprised to hear that Baltar is alive, given the fact that he was actually there when D'Anna offered Baltar to be evacuated from New Caprica?

Er, well, the last time Gaeta saw Baltar, he gave him a gun and told him his last chance at redemption was to stop Three from setting off the nuke. Given that the nuke didn't go off, it isn't unreasonable to believe Baltar was successful, and that in succeeding he would have either died or been stranded on New Caprica. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 02:50, 13 November 2006 (CST)

:Gaeta knew that he was chummy with the Cylons. For him to convince them not to detonate the nuke (not hard, given that it would be at best a symbolic gesture) and still make it off the planet alive is well within the realm of possibility. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:56, 13 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Downloaded/Archive 1

2006-03-11T22:13:36Z

Boonton: Count

If this episode has been dropped so Resurrection can be split into two, then aren't we still missing an episode? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 00:06, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Yes. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:: I've heard new rumors that this ISN'T the Cylon POV episode; that this episode covers the fate of Galactica-Sharon, but the "totally" Cylon POV episode was another one entirely. There may be hope yet. Besides, I think at the least Lawless has actually filmed scenes for it; I don't know if the one that was scrapped ever went past script phase.

:::RDM says in the downloaded that this '''is''' the cylon POV episode. Plus, theres no time left for one this season, the season finale starts next week. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 17:52, 26 February 2006 (EST)

However, new developments: I got a link to a scan of the February edition of Scifi Magazine, in which they answer questions from the official messageboard: http://pics.livejournal.com/reedfem/pic/0008a1hf ---->I can't tell if Grace Park is being SARCASTIC or if she was serious. (BTW, like 5 of these questions are from me, notably the Blade Runner one, the Geena Davis one, and the "new evil Sharon?" one). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:51, 5 December 2005 (EST)
::For those interested, the full set of scans can be found here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/reedfem/158883.html?page=1 --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:34, 5 December 2005 (EST)

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I saw a copy of Simon in the cafe on Caprica. I'm removing the "possibly archival footage" thing. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:24, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:They're saying it was a body double on TWOP. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:27, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::It's possible it might have been a different actor. What does TWOP stand for? --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:35, 24 February 2006 (EST)

This episode was very good. I have one problem with it: Not Enough Leoben Conoy. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:37, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yeah, I was suprised we didn't see him on Caprica. I mean, they even had Simon (or at least who I believe is Simon).

:Someone claimed Leoben was on Caprica: where? I did not see him, though I will rewatch it. I will delete this info until it can be confirmed. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:58, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::You're totally right... he wasn't there. Not sure why, but he wasn't. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 01:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::The TWOPers found a body double wearing his miniseries costume [http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9672/cap0118pd.png here]. ([http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3136156&view=findpost&p=4607381 link to post]) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 25 February 2006 (EST)
*He was there. He walked by 6 several times, and was sitting in the cafe. You don't see his face because they couldn't get the actor. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 01:15, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Blade Runner reference
I about fell off the couch when the cylons were referred to as "skin jobs"--George w chomsky

:Trust me, they know that we know. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:16, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Is it really Apollo in the picture of the Galactica crew that Sharon holds in her appartment? Because it's so small I can't be sure. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:30, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Can we get Roslin's "if I wanted to airlock a baby..." comment in the dialogue section? (both for its hilarity and the likelihood of it coming up later) I'd do it myself but I don't have a tape for the exact wording. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 14:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Added that quote. Maybe these two questions should be added as well, but I'd like to know how others think about it: - Why did Roslin eventually decide to have the baby adopted instead of killing it? Why Was Baltar not notified of the baby being kept alive? Roslin never shared her suspicions of Baltar being a Cylon sympathizer. Were Admiral Adama and Col. Tigh even notified of this? --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 16:26, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:Check the Analysis sections: Roslin has no real "evidence" against Baltar, so she's not going to bring her suspicions into the open yet. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:48, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::That's my point, really. Roslin didn't even inform her vice-president. Even if she's doing it because of the presidential elections it wouldn't make sense, because Baltar seems opposed to abortion (and so he could use the accusation of Roslin being a baby killer against her).... --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 06:01, 26 February 2006 (EST)
:::Actually, I think Roslin didn't tell Baltar far more because she suspects he's involved with the Cylons, than because she's worried about the election. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:59, 2 March 2006 (CST)

After viewing the episode I have one serious question, where did they get a "fake" baby to fool Sharon 2 and Helo? A parent would notice if the body wasn't their own child. While a friend of mine suggested body used was resultant of the offscreen abortion from "The Captains Hand", this wouldn't work, as that fetus was only 4 months along, and would have been far less developed, and only 1/3rd the size (approx.) of baby Hera. Is their a master Wax Sculpter somewhere in the fleet?--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:I don't think there's a canonical answer yet (and there may never be one). Some people have speculated that they use the baby of Hera's new adoptive mother (who mentioned that she had recently lost a child). At any rate, I think at this point they're all guesses (though the [[fumarella leaf]] origami theory hasn't gained much headway recently). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:22, 2 March 2006 (CST)

==Lucy Lawless character's name==
Last episode, she was "D'Anna Biers"; this episode we find out that her Cylon name is "Number Three". In dialog, she actually constantly refers to herself as "Three" "Number Three", etc. (well, they don't actually say "Number" aloud, but still). The scifi.com episode guide credits her for "Downloaded" as "D'Anna" but I think that's just miscommunication/they're easing into calling her "Number Three". Either way, I think we here on the wiki consider her "Number Three" now more because A) it is cooler, B) individual Cylons can have fake human names, but this refers to the individual, not the model. I.e. "Galactica-Three" = D'anna, but other Threes do not. Thoughts?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:42, 2 March 2006 (CST)
: I see you noticed my change. :) My thought on this was that we should refer to the specific character (i.e. the model with Galactica's fleet) as D'anna. ALl others should be Three or Number Three (the single number would bemore preferable). I liked how in the beginning of the episode synopsis she is referred to by her "D'anna" guise, but as soon as we find out her model number, she's referred to by that exclusively. It lets our reader know that THIS was the moment of change. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 14:53, 2 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, that's what I intended when I wrote it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:55, 2 March 2006 (CST)
:::An excellent plan... [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 15:00, 2 March 2006 (CST)

== Cars inside the parking lot ==

About the cars parked on the building, one of them is a DS, of course, but I think that the one that is seen on the left when you see the parking the first time is a Citroen SM. You can compere the car on the movie (21:15 inside the chapter, without commercials) with this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_P6 and this other http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroen_SM. As you can see, P6 wing is narrower on the side that is close to the front door. Front doors of both cars are very similar, of course. There is another car at the right of the DS, parked in a shadow zone, that could be the P6, but I'm not sure. you can have a better look at it at 24:48. About the 3 headlamp thingie (4 cars parked there?) I don't remember to have seen it on the citroen prototype pictures I have seen (you can see a lot of them at http://62.95.94.132/gallery/Citroen-Conservatoire). Front side of the car looks like VW Beetle. Of course there was a Citroen 2CV prototype with central headlamp, but it has only one headlamp, not three. --[[User:citroengs|Joaquin Gallardo]] 0:43, 3 March 2006 (CET)

The 3 headlamp vehicle seems most likely to ba a Tatra 87 as displayed here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_(car)

== Sharon is handcuffed to the resurrection tub ==

Did you notice that sharon is actually handcuffed to the resurrection tub, while number six is not?--Thomask77
:Yes, most likely because Sharon was a sleeper agent and they thought she'd take the shock of downloading and being a Cylon a little bad....which, what with all the screaming, is exactly what happened. She could have done more danage if not restrained. Makes sense entirely, not a goof.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:58, 3 March 2006 (CST)

==Cylons and Age==
Philwelch writes:
:Based on the assumption that model number corresponds with age, Leoben Conoy — whose age is close to that of D'anna Biers — is probably Number Two or Number Four, while Simon is likely either Number Four or Number Seven.

I removed this because I don't consider this a productive or interesting line of questioning - we just don't have enough data to make that age assumption. If it turns at that Brother Cyvill is #2 or something, then your argument would be bolstered enough to revisit (in my opinion), but at present, we really have no reason to believe it. Cylon copies are clearly created fully grown anyway - if they wanted to make a copy of #11 as an old man, it stands to reason that they could do it just as easily as making #6 a fully grown woman. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:31, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:The idea of Cylon model number corresponding with apparent age isn't anything I made up, it's plainly in the Analysis section already. If we already have that idea in the Analysis, I see no reason *not* to use it for further speculation. You're being inconsistent. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:50, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:As for "not enough data", as the Analysis says, Number Three is apparently older than Number Five, who appears older than Number Six, who appears older than Number Eight. That's four confirming data points. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 16:55, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::They are all fairly young, in their 20s and 30s. This does not indicate a strong correlation to me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:52, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::And what if TPTB completely go against this speculative convention and cast a teenager as Number Two, or cast someone Dr. Cottle's age (or, worse, Dr. Cottle!) as Number Ten? Where will your theory stand? I don't see the Article Page as being the locale for speculation and conjecture... that's what this Talk page is for. Let the series unravel as the writers write it, and let's take it in enjoyably, rather than galavanting off on theories that are tentatively founded at best, and the writers are under no obligation to uphold. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 11:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::If we're not allowed to speculate, than let's go back and delete most of the Analysis and Questions sections. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 14:59, 5 March 2006 (CST)

: I think people are forgetting that we are talking about ''Cylons'' here, not humans. Age has nothing to do with it; being as that may, I honestly doubt the Cylons have a gerontocracy here. It is far more likely that the whole number scheme is what model was first off the production line, which makes logical sense from the Cylon POV. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:27, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::There's still *apparent* age--Boomer appears to be a 22-24 year old woman while Leoben Conoy appears to be in his late 30's. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:38, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::That doesn't make any difference at all. In fact, the actor who portrays Leoben Conoy (Number ?a) is the oldest of the KCA (Known Cylon Agents) at 45/46. The actor portraying Simon (Number ?b) is 38/39... and just months older than Lucy Lawless at 37/38 (and Lucy Lawless has a bod & appearance that can put most 22-year-olds to shame). So, based on your theory, that ''forces'' the storyline to put Leoben Conoy at Number 2 (or 1) and Simon at ... wow. Will you look at that? Where ''do'' you put Simon in this, based on the idea that he's older than Number 3?
:::I'm not saying that you're/we're ''not allowed'' to speculate, I'm just of the emphatic opinion that it's counterproductive and unnecessary. This isn't "our" series, it's the writers' series, to do with as they warrant. I don't think half of the Analysis and Questions material on the episode pages should be there, but the moderators of this Wiki feel it should be there, so who am I to defy them? The basis of the Wiki is to make sure the information is '''''right''''', not who is right first, whether in speculation or fact. And, the only source of "right-ness" is the writers... and they don't feel it necessary to divulge this information yet. No amount of speculation, conjecture, or deduction on our parts is going to change that. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:11, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Cylon Models Present on Caprica ==

I removed the following entry/question from the Question section:
: Why does Caprica only have 4 cylon models on it? Would you not expect all 12 models to be cohabitating the planet?

Firstly, the question in and of itself is incorrect, because there are 5 models seen (in fact, RDM insinuates that all 6 models are visible by using computer-generated-effects projections and composites of the two actors who could not be in attendance for the episode's shooting). Secondly, RDM goes into great length to explain that it would incise into the storyline's drama and tension to reveal the other six models of Cylon on Caprica. He concedes that it doesn't make much sense to ''not'' see all twelve models, but that it is ultimately a writer's/producer's decision for the good of the story/show. Thirdly, and with that point in mind, it is not our place to explain or conject why the other six models are not present — it might be revealed later in following episodes, or it may never be — since any answer on our parts is either unfounded, speculative, or flat-out wrong. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:37, 6 March 2006 (CST)

I noticed in the background a white male, with a bald head. As we do not currently know of a Cylon that is bald this adds a little bit of possible speculation. Just something to think about. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No, that was just bad lighting/glare.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:04, 10 March 2006 (CST)

You sure about that? Hmmm, I'll have to watch the episode again, and pay more closer attention. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 00:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Count ==

I noticed the survior count has not increased at all in either this episode or Lay Down your Burdens Part I. What's up with the baby? She doesn't count?

Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I

2006-03-11T22:07:34Z

Boonton: Altered the answer on abortion, Laura made it clear that she did not want to ban abortion and was doing it out of population concerns, not religion

{{Episode Data|
Image = [[Image:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I.jpg|300px]]
| Title= Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I
| Series= [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|The Re-imagined Series]]
| Season= [[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode= 19
| Guests= [[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]] [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0874001/ Michael Trucco] as [[Samuel Anders]] [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001777/ Dean Stockwell] as [[Cavil|Brother Cavil]]
| Writer=[[Ronald D. Moore]]
| Story=
| Director=[[Michael Rymer]]
| Production=
| Rating=
| US Airdate=March 3, 2006
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=
| Population= 49,579
| Prev= [[Downloaded]]
| Next= [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]
}}

== Overview ==
''As the presidential election looms just weeks away, the accidental discovery of a habitable planet sparks debate in the Fleet: Colonize? Or keep seeking Earth? Meanwhile, Starbuck leads a rescue mission of Raptors back to Caprica to save Anders and his resistance''.

== Summary ==
*[[William Adama|Adama]] has finally given [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] the go-ahead to plan a rescue mission to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Caprica]]. On [[Pegasus (RDM)|''Pegasus'']], she lays out their plan: they will use ''all'' of their remaining [[Raptor|Raptors]] — 20 in all — and use the navigation computer/organ from one of the captured [[Heavy Raider]]s to calculate the Jumps back to Caprica. Using this, they can make it back to Caprica in a series of 10 Jumps. They will go undetected when they reach Caprica by making a risky jump to just a few klicks above the surface, within the atmosphere itself, below [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] [[DRADIS]]. Their biggest obstacle to doing this was actually interfacing with the Heavy Raider's navigation "computer", but now they will take [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|''Caprica''-Sharon]] along in Starbuck's Raptor with it; Sharon will directly interface with the computer (by inserting a fiber-optic cable into her arm, like she did in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]").
*The presidential election is two weeks away, and [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]] is ahead in the polls. The only real arguments that [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] has against her that give him any ground are when he accuses her of pandering to the religious fundamentalists (i.e. her recent policy switch on abortion) and guiding the Fleet based on the scriptures alone. Conferring with his campaign manager [[Tom Zarek]] in his lab, Baltar realizes he'll need more than this to turn the fleet againt Roslin. Meanwhile, Roslin is doing a little rehearsal ritual for the presidential debate with Adama in his quarters.
*On the hangar deck, [[Galen Tyrol|Chief Tyrol]] is sleeping on the floor and twitching convulsively, having a nightmare. [[Cally]] searches around the deck to find him, and is confused by the sight when she finds him. Cally tried to wake Tyrol up, but snapping right out of his nightmare he attacks Cally, punching her in the face until she is a bloody pulp and unconscious. Realizing where he is and what's going on, Tyrol is horrified, and carries Cally in his arms to sickbay.
*[[Lee Adama|Apollo]], now commander of ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', has conflicting feelings about Starbuck's mission to rescue Anders, but wishes her good luck in finding him.
*[[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and ''Caprica''-Sharon travel in Starbuck's Raptor. Sharon is still deeply depressed about her daughter [[Hera]]'s seeming death, and has been shutting herself out. Helo tells her that he won't let her do that and won't give up on her. Sharon tells him that she has the feeling that something bad will happen in the future; not on the mission to Caprica, but something else.
*On the very first jump out of the series of ten, [[Margaret Edmonson|Racetrack]]'s Raptor jumps to the wrong set of coordinates. Starbuck's orders were to keep going ahead until they lose 3 Raptors, so they go on ahead, while Racetrack prepares to follow her orders to return to [[Galactica (RDM)|''Galactica'']] if separated. Her Raptor jumped into the middle of a gas cloud with a lot of interference, and upon clearing it, a new planet is found. Scanners indicate that it is a human-habitable planet. She returns to ''Galactica'' with news of the discovery.
*The crew goes over the scans from the planet; it can sustain human life and subsequent scouting shows that in contains animal and vegetative life; they could indeed settle here. However, it is a cold world and somewhat harsh; only a temperate band around the equator covering about 20% of the surface would be habitable. After some prodding from [[Six]], Baltar and Zarek realize that they can use this as their wedge issue to turn the people against Roslin: offer them permament colonization on this planet.
*[[Tory Foster|Tory]] goes over new poll numbers with Roslin on [[Colonial One]]: Baltar has been gaining ground with his new offer to stop running from the Cylons and stay here. The planet is hidden by interference from the gas clouds, and many people want to just stop their constant chase in the refugee fleet. Roslin points out that if the Colonials could find the planet, the Cylons could just as easily. Also, life on the planet would be harsh. Tory points out that Baltar is pandering to the people's hopes, giving them false ones that they greatly desire, while Roslin is pointing out justifiable fears that they simply don't want to hear; people will vote their hopes.
*Shocked by his attack on Cally, Chief Tyrol has asked for religious counselling, and meets with a priest named [[Cavil|Brother Cavil]]. Tyrol explains that it is because he doesn't believe that psychoanalysis works, but is himself a very [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies|religious]] man. Cavil is somewhat loose and sarcastic in his counseling, leaving Tyrol a little pertubed and confused. Cavil tells Tryol that he must look for the problem in himself and questions Tyrol, and when Tyrol denies that he has been having disturbing dreams, Cavil can see through it, so Tyrol relents.
*For weeks, Tyrol has been having the recurring dream that he walks onto the upper level of the hangar deck, climbs over the railing and kills himself by jumping to his death. Cavil says it is because Tyrol has a subconscious desire to kill himself. Tyrol explains that he has had the gnawing worry since [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica''-Sharon]] died that he might himself be a [[Cylon agent|Cylon]]. ''Galactica''-Sharon never really knew she was a Cylon, even up to the point that she died, but reported strange fears that something bad was going to happen and she had to stop herself: how would Tyrol, or anyone else, really ''know'' if they were a Cylon sleeper agent or not? Tyrol is frightened by the prospect.
*Cavil assured Tyrol that he is not a Cylon, sarcastically quipping that he knows because he is a Cylon himself, and hasn't seen Tyrol at any of the meetings. Tyrol feels ashamed to go back to the hangar deck crew after the accident, but Cavil assures him that they're the only family he has left, and they love him. Cally most of all.
*At the final presidential debate, Baltar's charisma and hopes of finally giving up their run from the Cylons starts to pull him ahead in the polls, and Roslin's warnings that this planet is not safe and determination to keep searching for Earth do not gain wide support. Baltar apparently wins the final debate. Roslin tells him to go frak himself.
*The Raptors rescuse mission makes the final jump to Caprica. [[Raptor 612]] is lost because it jumps right into the middle of a mountain. The remaining Raptors continue on, then Starbuck, Helo, Sharon and the marines continue on foot.
*One klick away from the resistance's base camp, they see movement, and find [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] and his whole group. Starbuck is overjoyed to see him, but Anders warns that the Cylons are right behind them; the resistance's base was ambushed that morning, and half of Anders' men are dead.
*The [[Colonial Marine Corps|marines]] and [[Resistance (movement)|resistance]] members start coming under Cylon artillery fire. After running briefly, they reach a point where the arc of the artillery shells is right above them, and cannot hit them. However, the artillery's killzone is now between them and retreat back to the Raptors. To be continued...

== Questions ==
*Did [[Raptor 612]] Jump "into" the mountain by crashing into it, or did they jump ''inside'' of it?
**RDM confirms in the podcast that by "jumped into the mountain" it doesn't mean "they jumped close to it and thus crashed", it means, exactly like a Star Trek transporter accident, that they materialized from the Jump into solid rock, "half-phased".
*If Raptor 612 was destroyed by jumping into a mountain, how was their transponder still operational?
**Perhaps that part of the Raptor was in an air pocket in the rock, and thus not phased into it. RDM says in the podcast that the Raptor Jumping into the mountain wasn't like "swapping" spatial matter between two points: like a teleporter accident, the Raptor and its crew were horrifically merged into the rock itself.
*Is the previous distance limit for Colonial [[FTL]] jumps on account of something like mathematical calculations? Have any of the other Raptors, besides the lead Raptor, been modified, or do they just receive coordinates from the one Raptor with Caprica-Boomer and the Cylon device?
**No, or at least, not entirely. Based on Starbuck's jump back to Caprica in a Cylon Raider and other comments made in season 1, the Cylon FTL drive is far more capable to begin with. Colonial navigation systems would not be designed to take advantage of a markedly superior FTL drive because there would have been no need. Even by using the Cylon navigation computer, with its much better calculations, they needed ten jumps to return to Caprica.
***The dialog after Racetrack's Raptor gets waylaid hints at a firmware error. This hints at the possibility that all the Raptors were upgraded to take advantage of the “better” FTL jump calculations from the salvaged Cylon organ/computer. Previously, Starbuck jumped back to Caprica in her converted Raider in one jump, where the Raptors need to take 10 jumps. However, we do not know of the fleet's current position compared to where it was during the events of "[[Kobol%27s_Last_Gleaming%2C_Part_II]]". Therefore it is not possible to determine, assuming the best possible FTL jump calculations, whether Cylon or human ships can jump further.
*Does the fleet have the resources to sustain long term settlements on the newly found planet?
**Shelter could be taken care of by canabalizing the ships of the fleet for building materials. But the question of how many homes can be made for how many of the 49,000+ survivors simply by recycling the materials availible still remains. Even if ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'' themselves were recycled, would there be enough materials, or would the Battlestars still be necessary for orbital defence?
**The planet itself may have natural resources—in "[[Scar]]", a mining ship collected metals to build new Vipers, so mining the planet itself may be possible. In this case it would be unnecessary to cannibalize the fleet.
*Zarek says the people have been cooped up in metal boxes since the attack. How literally does he mean this—for instance, are people living inside converted cargo holds as they were in the original series?
**Judging from RDM's podcast, he just meant being stuck inside of cramped ships in general, i.e. even the ''Galactica'' crew (who have dedicated crew quarters).
*How was the Raptor able to jump back to the fleet if their FTL navigation computer was not working properly?
**Racetrack's navigator says she gave him the coordinates, so it is possible that she relayed them incorrectly rather than a malfunction in the computer. Alternatively, they could have tracked down any fault and repaired it. In any case, the coordinates for the Raptor's original jump point would probably still be in the system.
*What about the Cylons hiding within the fleet? With the possible settlement of the planet being openly debated can the Cylon infiltrators not contact the Cylon fleet and inform them of the Colonials intentions?
**Perhaps the interference around the planet is blocking long range communications?
**Caprica-Sharon implies that there are Cylons amongst the fleet by telling Adama she would not identify them if asked.
*Laura states that Baltar does not have a key issue besides the "religious angle." What about the abortion issue from "[[The Captain's Hand]]"?
**Presumably Baltar charged that Laura's decision to ban abortion was to appease the Gemenese religious.
*When exactly did the Raptors leave for Caprica? If the episode lasts about two weeks, did it take that long to get to Caprica?
**From the dialog it appears that the Raptors can make a jump within 10 minuites, so the entire trip back likely took less than two hours.
***It sounded like they were going to leave at least a week, maybe more, before the elections (since Six said the elections were two weeks away). And according to the timelines, it took them 10 days to make the trip.
*Why did it take so long, about 10 days according to the timeline, to make the trip?
**FTL Jumps cannot be used instantaneously mant times and over large distances like Warp technology on ''Star Trek'': it takes time for Navigation computers to calculate Jump coordinates. Although in "[[33]]" this could take under half an hour for ''short'' Jumps, it takes a much longer time to calculate long-distance Jumps like this, and they stated in the briefing that this was the longest set of Jumps ever attempted in history.

== Analysis ==
*Timeline:
**According to [[Six]], on the night of the first debate the election is still "two weeks away".
**At the beginning of the first debate, [[James McManus]] states Baltar declared his bid for presidency a month ago. This took place at the end of "[[The Captain's Hand]]".
**Zarek states that the people of the fleet have been "cooped up in metal boxes for nine months", putting this episode not long after "[[Downloaded]]" around Day 270.
**At the conclusion of the second debate, the polls will open in three days.
*[[Margaret Edmonson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmonson]] is apparently assigned to ''Pegasus'' at present, since Dualla refers to her mission as the "Pegasus survey team".
**She could have been flying a ''Pegasus'' Raptor.
*[[Lee Adama]] is now wearing a wristwatch, perhaps [[Barry Garner]]'s from "[[The Captain's Hand]]".
*It is safe to emerge from a hyperspace jump inside a planetary atmosphere at 2km, but not within solid rock. For comparative purposes, the density of air at 2km in an earth-like atmosphere is about 1 kg/m3, while the density of silica rock is about 2,600 kg/m3.
*When Tyrol's counseling with Cavil is coming to an end, Cavil notes to Tyrol that Cally "especially" loves him. Tyrol is apparently oblivious to this obvious fact up to that point.
*''BattlestarWiki'' has been trying for some time to reconcile on the [[Timeline (RDM)|Timeline]] the apparent jump from 3 months to 6 months that occured at the beginning of Season 2.5, a part of which was that back in "[[Bastille Day]]" it was stated on screen that the presidential elections were due in '''seven''' months. However, over 7 months passed by the end of "[[Scar]]", and there wasn't even talk of the elections until "[[The Captain's Hand]]". In the podcast for this episode, Ron Moore appears to reveal that he has simply forgotten this point. When he refers to the fact that "elections were promised back in "Bastille Day"", Moore says that he remembers that the line in "Bastille Day" was '''nine''' months, not seven. This is more than a one-episode goof, becuase one month after "Bastille Day" in "[[Colonial Day]]", it was stated that the elections were six months away. In the podcast it seems that Moore is truly and simply mistaken, and there is no explanation for the descrepancy betwen the "seven months after the attack" figures given in "Bastille Day" and "Colonial Day", and the new "nine months after the attack" figure at the end of season 2.5. It is simply a mistake.
*In this episode they refer to "the captured Heavy Raider", singular. This would imply that only the one Starbuck brought back from Caprica in "[[Home, Part I]]" was still functional at all, and the one that crashed into ''Galactica'' in "[[Scattered]]" was damaged beyond salvage or repair.

== Notes ==
*The re-cap for this episode includes scenes not actually shown in previous episodes—for instance, Starbuck demanding to the dying Roslin circa "[[Epiphanies]]" that they go back and rescue the Caprica resistance.
*When Baltar sarcastically quips that Zarek (and Six) expect him to just sit around and wait for "The Hand of God" to deliver them something they can use to their advantage against Roslin, he is of course referencing the previous episode titled "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]". Ironically, Baltar considers himself the hand of God in that episode. Further, a "chance serendipitous event" (namely the discovery of an inhabitable planet) does deliver them something they can use against Roslin.
*Likewise, when Apollo wishes Starbuck "good hunting", there's a tone of concern, and he seems to pause before saying it, as if Apollo meant to say something else but changed his mind. This may be a reference to "[[33]]", when Starbuck tells Apollo to say "good hunting" instead of "be careful out there".
*This episode has many parallels to "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]" and "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]": the discovery of an inhabitable planet, Gaeta plotting a Raptor jump dangerously close to a planet surface, Starbuck's use of captured Cylon technology to return to Caprica, the intercutting of several plot threads in the teaser, a character contemplating suicide out of fear of being a Cylon, and difficulties between Helo and Sharon. In addition, Tyrol's assault of Cally is something of a parallel to Helo shooting Sharon in "Kobol's Last Gleaming"—in both cases, a man driven to rage physically and emotionally wounds a woman who loves him.
*When Lt. Gaeta takes his shirt off in the head, he can be seen to still be sporting the tiger tatoo that we first saw in "[[Final Cut]]".
*The combined Colonial fleet had 20 Raptors in this episode, of which 1 was destroyed before the end. Previously, ''Galactica'' was confirmed to have at least 5 left ([[The Farm]]), with the suggestion that there may be as many as 8 ([[Resistance]]). Doubtlessly, ''Pegasus'' brought at least an equal number of Raptors with it when it joined the Fleet, but 20 is still a high number for this. Perhaps a disproportionately large number of Raptors escaped to [[Ragnar Anchorage]] during the [[Miniseries]]. Or perhaps like in real life with American Nimitz class Aircraft Carriers that carry a larger number of fighter aircraft compared to older Forrestal class carriers, the Pegasus, being a larger and more modern Battlestar than Galactica, it has the capability to carry a larger complement of Raptors. Unlike Vipers, Raptors do have FTL drives. We actually saw Boomer and Helo escaping the destruction of their Viper squadron, because Raptors do not engage in frontline combat, and because they have an extenstive ECM suite which Helo was trying to jam the Cylon virus signal with. Indeed, [[Crashdown]] was a Raptor ECO, but Boomer stated that he was not from ''Galactica'', but a refugee "from Triton" (either a battlestar or a planet).
**Also, more Raptors could have been built with extra materials after the Viper squadrons were manufactured ([[Scar]]).
*The jump error that landed the Raptor in the nebula was attributed to a "firmware error" by the crew. This may be an indication that there was firmware upgrade to deal with the increased FTL jump distances provided by the Cylon computer.
*When Cavil is consoling Tyrol's fears that he might unknowingly be a Cylon sleeper agent, just like Boomer was, Tyrol asks him how he can know for sure. Cavil sarcastically answers that it's because maybe he's a Cylon, and he hasn't seen Tyrol at any of the meetings: Number Six also sarcastically remarked to Baltar in the Miniseries that [[Aaron Doral]] could not be a Cylon, because she hadn't "seen him at any of the good Cylon parties"...but of course, Doral actually ''was'' a Cylon, implying that Cavil is truly more than he seems.
*Tory actually paraphrases the title of this episode aloud, saying that the new planet offers people in the Fleet the hope that they can "lay down their burdens" and stop running.
*During the premiere airing of this episode on the Sci-Fi Channel, before the Teaser segment a "Parental Discretion Is Advised" black and white message was inserted. At the end of the Teaser, Tyrol beats Cally to a bloody pulp.
*Lee Adama is now wearing a new uniform as Commander of ''Pegasus'': it is a Commander's uniform, denoted by the new red trim (with gold inner trim), and it has a white "''Pegasus'' BSG-62" patch, replacing his old gold "''Galactica'' BSG-75" patch.
*Dualla's photo of Adama is the left half of a group shot with Kara Thrace and his brother Zak Adama. The original belongs to Thrace, and she has kept it in her locker on ''Galactica'' since the miniseries.
*Dualla refers to "rivers of milk and honey" on the newly discovered planet. The phrase "land of milk and honey" is a common epithet for the promised land in the Torah, appearing in Exodus 3:8, 3:17, 13:5, 33:3, Leviticus 20:24, Number 13:27, 14:8, 16:13-14, and Deuteronomy 6:3.
*Commander Lee Adama is seen eating noodles with chopsticks in his quarters, just like his father in "[[33]]", etc.
*In the podcast, RDM states that originally instead of Starbuck, Helo, and Sharon leading the other Raptors in another Raptor, they would have been flying in the captured Heavy Raider itself. However, the 2 part season finale went overbudget and cuts had to be made, and the cost of building the Heavy Raider interior was deemed prohibitively expensive. Thus, they bring the Heavy Raider computer/organ with them in a normal Raptor. Moore said he believed that fans "wouldn't miss" an actual appearance by the Heavy Raider.
*Col. [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] appears in this epsiode twice but doesn't speak a single line.
*This is the first time since the [[Mini Series]] that Helo is seen fulfilling his duties as an [[ECO]].
*Apollo quips that if they find a habitable planet, he'll build the pilots a bar on it. Actor Jamie Bamber has said in interviews that part of Apollo's backstory is that he didn't know what he was going to do with his life; he's in the Colonial Fleet reserves, not a full-career commitment, etc. He said that right before the attack, Apollo was supposed to be considering leaving the service and just openning up a bar somewhere.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==
*''Chief Tyrol is worried that like'' Galactica''-Sharon, he could just as well be another Cylon sleeper agent:''
:'''Chief Tyrol:''' How do you know I'm human?
:'''Brother Cavil:''' Oh, well, maybe because I'm a Cylon and I've never seen you at any of the meetings.

*'''Brother Cavil:''' Do you know how useless prayer is? Chanting, and singing, and mucking about with old half-remembered lines of bad poetry? And you know what it gets you? Exactly nothing.

*'''Gaius Baltar:''' I'm not sure if you're aware, [[Tom Zarek|Tom]], but the mob isn't usually in the habit of electing ungodly apostates who denegrate people of faith.

== Official Statements ==

*''In an interview in issue #197 of TV Zone, James Callis (Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]]) said:'' "the arrival of the Pegasus has helped galvanize our characters into who they are and who they’re trying to be. These later episodes [in Season 2] also further drive home the fact that the Galactica’s crew could be exterminated by its own kind, meaning that Humans are potentially far more terrifying an enemy than perhaps the Cylons."

== Guest Stars ==

*[[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0874001/ Michael Trucco] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001777/ Dean Stockwell] as [[Cavil|Brother Cavil]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Aaron+Douglas Aaron Douglas] as CPO [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Nicki+Clyne Nicki Clyne] as Specialist [[Cally]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Leah+Cairns Leah Cairns] [[Margaret Edmonson|Racetrack]]
*Rekha Sharma as [[Tory Foster]]
*Alisen Down as Jean Barclay
*Colin Lawrence as "Skulls" McCall
*[http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0443286/ David Kaye] as [[James McManus]]

{{Episode List}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Ronald D. Moore]]

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I/Archive 1

2006-03-08T20:50:12Z

Boonton:

Since, according to IMDB, Dean Stockwell has been credited with the role of Brother Cavell (not Cavill) ... should this page be modified? Apparently, one more cylon has been identified.

:Not sure. All the ep guide says is that Cavell is a Humano-Cylon priest. IS it possible that the spoiler is wrong and he's really just a religious leader (possibly replacing Elosha) who is promoting a Human-Cylon peace? --Ltcrashdown 22:19, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've been spoiled, and can tell you that he is indeed a Cylon (unless he has an identical twin brother). [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:49, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Ummm... dude, thanks for spoiling me. Grrr.... --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 10:38, 6 March 2006 (EST)

Found some pics - Spoiler Warning - http://pics.livejournal.com/ravenclawdrew/gallery/0000wa1h - [[User:Lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 12:30, 11 February, 2006

::Yeah I saw those too; it's what I based the info about Baltar running for President on (look really hard).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:40, 10 February 2006 (EST)

I am starting to think these spoilers were to throw us off the track...

Corrected a number of spelling mistakes - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

Note to everyone: I tend to make a lot of spelling mistakes because I'm hurrying, and worrying about spelling makes it harder for me to concentrate and focus on the information, and slows me down alot; I usually try to proofread my stuff when I'm "done" with an episode (after most of the notes and stuff around done) but I still tend to leave a typo here or there. I appreciate the spelling help. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:55, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Merovingian, don't worry, the quality article makes "up" for it ;) i do the same thing as well when it comes to writing up an article - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

:Yeah I usually only worry about spelling around Sundays, by which time we're more or less done. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)

::I think this is the right approach. We obviously want the capsule summaries sooner rather than later. And we don't criticise authors' typos as English may not be their native tongue and in any event if we waited for perfection we'd still be on the miniseries. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 08:14, 4 March 2006 (CST)

Does anyone know the music playing the the background from the first few scenes of this episode? --[[User:PioneerCreative|PioneerCreative]] 23:33, 3 March 2006 (CST)

How many Raptors are lost in the misjump into the mountain? One or two? I only thought it was on when I watched the episode and edited the summary to reflect this, but it seems '''everybody''' else seems to think it was a pair. Starbuck did say two names, but I interpreted those to be the pilot and ECO of a single Raptor. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 01:29, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:Helo says they have 17 Raptors left. They already lost Racetrack's. They then say two names, and Starbuck says "we lost Raptore six twelve"; Now, this sounds confusing, but I don't think she said "Raptor 612"; I think she said "Raptors 6, 12" out of 20. Plus she did say two names; in addition, it wasn't just pilots but also marines, so one name wouldn't make as much sense. Although a little fuzzy, this still fits the "19-17=2" thing, instead of us jumping to believe that another Raptor got lost in a completely undocumented event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 01:36, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::I remember hearing Helo say they had seventeen left after (I thought) a single one had been lost in the mountain and thinking nineteen was an odd starting number, having missed the earlier reference to the entire complement being twenty. If the starting force did indeed number twenty, it seems clear two Raptors were indeed lost in the final jump and I was mistaken. I will point out, however, that Starbuck would be much less likely to know the names of marines lost on board a ship, while it's almost a given she would know who the flight crew were. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 02:01, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::Helo actually says, "Wait a minute, we lost ''another'' Raptor. I'm only reading 17 ''out there''." His DRADIS screen doesn't display the Raptor they are in - that behavior was shown clearly in Scattered. Galactica's DRADIS was completely empty when they were seperated from the fleet, it didn't show Galactica itself as a single contact. So, clearly, Helo is talking about there being 17 other Raptors, in addition to the one he, Starbuck, and Sharon are in. In addition, Starbuck clearly says Raptor, not Raptors, and it is extremely unlikely that she would verbally separate a list of two numbers with an implied comma rather than the word 'and'. Not to mention, Raptors are commonly referred to by their 3-digit flight number. So only two Raptors were lost - Racetrack's miscalculated jump, and Raptor 612, which jumped into the mountain. Eighteen landed safely on Caprica. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 09:00, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::Xenophon is right on the money. Oh well, this means I don't have to right all that. I suddenly want to read "The Ten Thousand" again... --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:24, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::And just to chime in, if there were only 17 raptors, then Kara would have had to scrub the mission, so 18 did land on Caprica. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 23:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)

BTW: in case anyone was wondering later; in the podcast, RDM confirms that by "jumped into the mountain" he doesn't mean "they jumped close to it and thus crashed", he means, exactly like a ''Star Trek'' transporter accident, that they materialized from the Jump "in solid rock" like a transporter accident. Cool. (It's what I assumed too).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:39, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::If the FTL drive works by opening up a wormhole then it seems like jumping into a mountain would create a sphear of rock that would be 'jumped' into space while the raptor swapped places with it. Likewise a puff of air would be seen if you were observing the spot from which the the raptors made their final jump into the atomosphere. If that was the case it would be possible for the unfortunate raptor to just jump itself out of the mountain. On the other hand perhaps opening up the wormhole w/one end in the mountain perhaps the raptor collided with the rock that was being 'jumped out' leaving its transponder intact inside the mountain but the raptor & its crew would be smashed up. If this is the case FTL's could make useful mining tools. If some valuable ore is buried at the center of a planet or star just use an FTL to open up a wormhole and let it come out. Say your water tanks are empty. Just open up a wormhole inside the tank with the other end in some fresh water lake & the water will pour out and fill you up. -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

:::Oh man, you're getting into quantum physics, and while that makes for a fascinating discussion (appropriate for here, if you wish), I'll prefix this by saying that RDM has stated, several times, that he's not one for techno-babble-geekiness. Let's just figure the folks in that Raptor got "rocked" (sorry, bad pun... I could have said "stoned") and won't be seen again. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:49, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:::Fair point. I love that RDM has kept away from geeking the series up with psuedo-science but the mind can't help but wonder about these things. --[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 14:09, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Is the planet in this episode [[Earth]]? -- [[User:John-1107|John-1107]] 09:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:No. The leaders know roughly where Earth is, and it's very far away from their current position. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 09:13, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::Not to mention that Earth is neither barren nor hidden in a nebula. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:47, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Not now, at least. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 15:30, 4 March 2006 (EST)

Hey all, I find it interesting that the discussion automatically focuses on counting Raptors and figuring out how the technical things work. Can we perhaps add some discussion about the actual events of the show, and the characters? To me, the draw of the show is the fact that it's actually a character drama that just happens to be set in space... Ron Moore has said many times that he doesn't feel the need to explain how everything works, and I think that goes a long way in making it a successful show. The last time I really saw that was the original Star Wars. With no explaination of all the sci-fi tech, you more readily accepted "their" world and just went along for the ride, instead of getting caught up on minutia of how FTL works, etc. Thoughts? Or am I just out there...? -- [[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 10:23, 7 March 2006 (EST)

:: I agree, this episode put forth some interesting ideas about religion. Brother Cavell, who I would expect to be putting forth a stelth version of the cyclon religion, more or less ripped apart the idea of praying to the gods for help. Is he trying to weaken the colonials faith in polytheism in order to pave the ground for a cyclon conversion effort to monotheism?

::In politics I found the camapaign by Baltar to settle the planet to be odd. How many modern people could be dropped off in untamed wilderness and make a settlement from scratch? I for one would rather have the comfort of a modern ship to live in until we find a world pre-populated with friendly people.

::Finally the rescue mission struck me as odd as well. This seems like an incredibly risky mission to send the best of the best on in order to achieve the slim hope of recuing a handful of people. Will Galactica and the fleet just wait around for them to return? What if they all get killed, how long can the fleet wait to see if this gamble pays off?--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 14:32, 7 March 2006 (CST)

==Raptor Count==
Questions:
#Did we get the 20 raptor count in dialog?
#We lost Racetrack on the first jump and Raptor 612 on the last. The SAR team had 17 raptors after that, so if they started off with 20, they lost one other in between. Only Raptor 612 got up close and personal with the mountain. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:51, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:No, Farago. She said "RaptorS 6, 12". They lost 2 in the final jump, 1 when Racetrack got lost, and none in between. Starbuck lists off two names. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:12, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:Counting the one they're in (Helo said something like "there are only 17 Raptors '''out there'''") it would have to be Raptor 612 (they've paused like that before in dialogue "Raptor 6..12").
*17 other survivors
*Starbucks (one with Heavy Raider brain)
*612 (in mountain)
*Racetracks
=20
::Helo is in Starbuck's Raptor, which would not show up on his screen. The correct count is Helo/Starbuck's ship, + Racetrack, + Raptor 612 (lost in the mountain), + 17 others = 20. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 09:28, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::Yes, but are we ''certain'' there were 20 raptors to begin with? It's not given in dialog, and I haven't been able to get a good count from any CGI shots. According to sadgeezer, these are the pilots that checkin with Starbuck over wireless:
:::#Headcase
:::#Swordsman
:::#Shoestrap
:::#Scumball
:::#Milko
:::#Skylar
:::#Ronin
:::#Brake
:::#Boulion
:::#Steaker
:::#Hamster
:::#Bo
:::#Chaser
:::#Godama
:::#Charlieman
:::#Starcloud
:::#Racetrack
:::#Callon
:::#...and Starbuck.
:::I suppose the raptor piloted by "Toughguy" and "Carousel" makes 20. I also hear an unintellgable name between "Swordsman" and "Shoestrap", but I can't actually hear "Toughguy" either - they might be the same person. I think it's worth noting that [[Stubbs]] isn't on this list - this reinforces my opinion that he was the pilot killed in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I", but I suppose it's possible that he's still around and just opted out of the mission.
:::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:00, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::::I'm confused - I don't remember hearing that many checkins. The only time I recall them doing it, I heard at most a couple followed by Racetrack and then they were done. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 22:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

The checkins were in the background while Helo talked to Sharon. Additionally, they did only lose one Raptor (Helo continually refers to losing one Raptor, in the singular) and his exact line was "they jumped inside the mountain". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 12:38, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Raptor Reconciliation ==

In Scar the mining ship was mining metals for Pegas's production teams to construct new vipers. Isn't it possible they produced some raptors as well?
:It might be, but just like an automobile factory, it would probably take substantial effort and material to re-tool the ''Pegasus'' viper factory for raptors. Switching to another variety of the same vehicle (Corollas to Camrys, or Mark II vipers to Mark VII) takes some doing; this would be a much bigger change. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 5 March 2006 6:08 p.m. (EST).
::Well, the Pegasus has the capablility to build one craft in it's air wing. Logically, she should also be able to produce other ones. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:59, 5 March 2006 (CST)
::Actually many automobile assembly lines are being designed now to allow for multiple models to be built at the same time. For example, BMW's new plant in Leipzig can produce all 10 BMW models on the same assembly line. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 22:59, 6 March 2006 (CST)

==Noodles note==

I think the noodles note on this went on far longer than it should; just leave it with "this is something his father did too": pointing out all of the superstitions and stuff just ran on--->unless RDM himself mentions this kind of thing in the podcast, she should not use it here; RDM indeed did not mention it in the podcast for LDYB part I. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:05, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Spoiler's Right or Wrong ==

So were the spoilers that were posted before the episode aired a red herring? The planet was not offered by the cyclons as part of a peace initive. Since one of the selling points of this planet is that it is supposedly unlikely to be found by the cyclons wouldn't any of them showing up in part 2 basically spoil the whole idea? -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I/Archive 1

2006-03-07T20:32:31Z

Boonton:

Since, according to IMDB, Dean Stockwell has been credited with the role of Brother Cavell (not Cavill) ... should this page be modified? Apparently, one more cylon has been identified.

:Not sure. All the ep guide says is that Cavell is a Humano-Cylon priest. IS it possible that the spoiler is wrong and he's really just a religious leader (possibly replacing Elosha) who is promoting a Human-Cylon peace? --Ltcrashdown 22:19, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've been spoiled, and can tell you that he is indeed a Cylon (unless he has an identical twin brother). [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:49, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Ummm... dude, thanks for spoiling me. Grrr.... --[[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 10:38, 6 March 2006 (EST)

Found some pics - Spoiler Warning - http://pics.livejournal.com/ravenclawdrew/gallery/0000wa1h - [[User:Lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 12:30, 11 February, 2006

::Yeah I saw those too; it's what I based the info about Baltar running for President on (look really hard).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:40, 10 February 2006 (EST)

I am starting to think these spoilers were to throw us off the track...

Corrected a number of spelling mistakes - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

Note to everyone: I tend to make a lot of spelling mistakes because I'm hurrying, and worrying about spelling makes it harder for me to concentrate and focus on the information, and slows me down alot; I usually try to proofread my stuff when I'm "done" with an episode (after most of the notes and stuff around done) but I still tend to leave a typo here or there. I appreciate the spelling help. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:55, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Merovingian, don't worry, the quality article makes "up" for it ;) i do the same thing as well when it comes to writing up an article - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

:Yeah I usually only worry about spelling around Sundays, by which time we're more or less done. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)

::I think this is the right approach. We obviously want the capsule summaries sooner rather than later. And we don't criticise authors' typos as English may not be their native tongue and in any event if we waited for perfection we'd still be on the miniseries. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 08:14, 4 March 2006 (CST)

Does anyone know the music playing the the background from the first few scenes of this episode? --[[User:PioneerCreative|PioneerCreative]] 23:33, 3 March 2006 (CST)

How many Raptors are lost in the misjump into the mountain? One or two? I only thought it was on when I watched the episode and edited the summary to reflect this, but it seems '''everybody''' else seems to think it was a pair. Starbuck did say two names, but I interpreted those to be the pilot and ECO of a single Raptor. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 01:29, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:Helo says they have 17 Raptors left. They already lost Racetrack's. They then say two names, and Starbuck says "we lost Raptore six twelve"; Now, this sounds confusing, but I don't think she said "Raptor 612"; I think she said "Raptors 6, 12" out of 20. Plus she did say two names; in addition, it wasn't just pilots but also marines, so one name wouldn't make as much sense. Although a little fuzzy, this still fits the "19-17=2" thing, instead of us jumping to believe that another Raptor got lost in a completely undocumented event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 01:36, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::I remember hearing Helo say they had seventeen left after (I thought) a single one had been lost in the mountain and thinking nineteen was an odd starting number, having missed the earlier reference to the entire complement being twenty. If the starting force did indeed number twenty, it seems clear two Raptors were indeed lost in the final jump and I was mistaken. I will point out, however, that Starbuck would be much less likely to know the names of marines lost on board a ship, while it's almost a given she would know who the flight crew were. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 02:01, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::Helo actually says, "Wait a minute, we lost ''another'' Raptor. I'm only reading 17 ''out there''." His DRADIS screen doesn't display the Raptor they are in - that behavior was shown clearly in Scattered. Galactica's DRADIS was completely empty when they were seperated from the fleet, it didn't show Galactica itself as a single contact. So, clearly, Helo is talking about there being 17 other Raptors, in addition to the one he, Starbuck, and Sharon are in. In addition, Starbuck clearly says Raptor, not Raptors, and it is extremely unlikely that she would verbally separate a list of two numbers with an implied comma rather than the word 'and'. Not to mention, Raptors are commonly referred to by their 3-digit flight number. So only two Raptors were lost - Racetrack's miscalculated jump, and Raptor 612, which jumped into the mountain. Eighteen landed safely on Caprica. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 09:00, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::Xenophon is right on the money. Oh well, this means I don't have to right all that. I suddenly want to read "The Ten Thousand" again... --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:24, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::And just to chime in, if there were only 17 raptors, then Kara would have had to scrub the mission, so 18 did land on Caprica. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 23:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)

BTW: in case anyone was wondering later; in the podcast, RDM confirms that by "jumped into the mountain" he doesn't mean "they jumped close to it and thus crashed", he means, exactly like a ''Star Trek'' transporter accident, that they materialized from the Jump "in solid rock" like a transporter accident. Cool. (It's what I assumed too).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:39, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::If the FTL drive works by opening up a wormhole then it seems like jumping into a mountain would create a sphear of rock that would be 'jumped' into space while the raptor swapped places with it. Likewise a puff of air would be seen if you were observing the spot from which the the raptors made their final jump into the atomosphere. If that was the case it would be possible for the unfortunate raptor to just jump itself out of the mountain. On the other hand perhaps opening up the wormhole w/one end in the mountain perhaps the raptor collided with the rock that was being 'jumped out' leaving its transponder intact inside the mountain but the raptor & its crew would be smashed up. If this is the case FTL's could make useful mining tools. If some valuable ore is buried at the center of a planet or star just use an FTL to open up a wormhole and let it come out. Say your water tanks are empty. Just open up a wormhole inside the tank with the other end in some fresh water lake & the water will pour out and fill you up. -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

:::Oh man, you're getting into quantum physics, and while that makes for a fascinating discussion (appropriate for here, if you wish), I'll prefix this by saying that RDM has stated, several times, that he's not one for techno-babble-geekiness. Let's just figure the folks in that Raptor got "rocked" (sorry, bad pun... I could have said "stoned") and won't be seen again. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:49, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:::Fair point. I love that RDM has kept away from geeking the series up with psuedo-science but the mind can't help but wonder about these things. --[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 14:09, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Is the planet in this episode [[Earth]]? -- [[User:John-1107|John-1107]] 09:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:No. The leaders know roughly where Earth is, and it's very far away from their current position. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 09:13, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::Not to mention that Earth is neither barren nor hidden in a nebula. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:47, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Not now, at least. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 15:30, 4 March 2006 (EST)

Hey all, I find it interesting that the discussion automatically focuses on counting Raptors and figuring out how the technical things work. Can we perhaps add some discussion about the actual events of the show, and the characters? To me, the draw of the show is the fact that it's actually a character drama that just happens to be set in space... Ron Moore has said many times that he doesn't feel the need to explain how everything works, and I think that goes a long way in making it a successful show. The last time I really saw that was the original Star Wars. With no explaination of all the sci-fi tech, you more readily accepted "their" world and just went along for the ride, instead of getting caught up on minutia of how FTL works, etc. Thoughts? Or am I just out there...? -- [[User:stealthboy|stealthboy]] 10:23, 7 March 2006 (EST)

:: I agree, this episode put forth some interesting ideas about religion. Brother Cavell, who I would expect to be putting forth a stelth version of the cyclon religion, more or less ripped apart the idea of praying to the gods for help. Is he trying to weaken the colonials faith in polytheism in order to pave the ground for a cyclon conversion effort to monotheism?

In politics I found the camapaign by Baltar to settle the planet to be odd. How many modern people could be dropped off in untamed wilderness and make a settlement from scratch? I for one would rather have the comfort of a modern ship to live in until we find a world pre-populated with friendly people.

Finally the rescue mission struck me as odd as well. This seems like an incredibly risky mission to send the best of the best on in order to achieve the slim hope of recuing a handful of people. Will Galactica and the fleet just wait around for them to return? What if they all get killed, how long can the fleet wait to see if this gamble pays off?--[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 14:32, 7 March 2006 (CST)

==Raptor Count==
Questions:
#Did we get the 20 raptor count in dialog?
#We lost Racetrack on the first jump and Raptor 612 on the last. The SAR team had 17 raptors after that, so if they started off with 20, they lost one other in between. Only Raptor 612 got up close and personal with the mountain. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:51, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:No, Farago. She said "RaptorS 6, 12". They lost 2 in the final jump, 1 when Racetrack got lost, and none in between. Starbuck lists off two names. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:12, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:Counting the one they're in (Helo said something like "there are only 17 Raptors '''out there'''") it would have to be Raptor 612 (they've paused like that before in dialogue "Raptor 6..12").
*17 other survivors
*Starbucks (one with Heavy Raider brain)
*612 (in mountain)
*Racetracks
=20
::Helo is in Starbuck's Raptor, which would not show up on his screen. The correct count is Helo/Starbuck's ship, + Racetrack, + Raptor 612 (lost in the mountain), + 17 others = 20. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 09:28, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::Yes, but are we ''certain'' there were 20 raptors to begin with? It's not given in dialog, and I haven't been able to get a good count from any CGI shots. According to sadgeezer, these are the pilots that checkin with Starbuck over wireless:
:::#Headcase
:::#Swordsman
:::#Shoestrap
:::#Scumball
:::#Milko
:::#Skylar
:::#Ronin
:::#Brake
:::#Boulion
:::#Steaker
:::#Hamster
:::#Bo
:::#Chaser
:::#Godama
:::#Charlieman
:::#Starcloud
:::#Racetrack
:::#Callon
:::#...and Starbuck.
:::I suppose the raptor piloted by "Toughguy" and "Carousel" makes 20. I also hear an unintellgable name between "Swordsman" and "Shoestrap", but I can't actually hear "Toughguy" either - they might be the same person. I think it's worth noting that [[Stubbs]] isn't on this list - this reinforces my opinion that he was the pilot killed in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I", but I suppose it's possible that he's still around and just opted out of the mission.
:::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:00, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::::I'm confused - I don't remember hearing that many checkins. The only time I recall them doing it, I heard at most a couple followed by Racetrack and then they were done. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 22:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

The checkins were in the background while Helo talked to Sharon. Additionally, they did only lose one Raptor (Helo continually refers to losing one Raptor, in the singular) and his exact line was "they jumped inside the mountain". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 12:38, 7 March 2006 (CST)

== Raptor Reconciliation ==

In Scar the mining ship was mining metals for Pegas's production teams to construct new vipers. Isn't it possible they produced some raptors as well?
:It might be, but just like an automobile factory, it would probably take substantial effort and material to re-tool the ''Pegasus'' viper factory for raptors. Switching to another variety of the same vehicle (Corollas to Camrys, or Mark II vipers to Mark VII) takes some doing; this would be a much bigger change. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 5 March 2006 6:08 p.m. (EST).
::Well, the Pegasus has the capablility to build one craft in it's air wing. Logically, she should also be able to produce other ones. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:59, 5 March 2006 (CST)
::Actually many automobile assembly lines are being designed now to allow for multiple models to be built at the same time. For example, BMW's new plant in Leipzig can produce all 10 BMW models on the same assembly line. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 22:59, 6 March 2006 (CST)

==Noodles note==

I think the noodles note on this went on far longer than it should; just leave it with "this is something his father did too": pointing out all of the superstitions and stuff just ran on--->unless RDM himself mentions this kind of thing in the podcast, she should not use it here; RDM indeed did not mention it in the podcast for LDYB part I. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:05, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Spoiler's Right or Wrong ==

So were the spoilers that were posted before the episode aired a red herring? The planet was not offered by the cyclons as part of a peace initive. Since one of the selling points of this planet is that it is supposedly unlikely to be found by the cyclons wouldn't any of them showing up in part 2 basically spoil the whole idea? -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I/Archive 1

2006-03-06T20:09:19Z

Boonton:

Since, according to IMDB, Dean Stockwell has been credited with the role of Brother Cavell (not Cavill) ... should this page be modified? Apparently, one more cylon has been identified.

:Not sure. All the ep guide says is that Cavell is a Humano-Cylon priest. IS it possible that the spoiler is wrong and he's really just a religious leader (possibly replacing Elosha) who is promoting a Human-Cylon peace? --Ltcrashdown 22:19, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've been spoiled, and can tell you that he is indeed a Cylon (unless he has an identical twin brother). [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:49, 4 March 2006 (EST)

Found some pics - Spoiler Warning - http://pics.livejournal.com/ravenclawdrew/gallery/0000wa1h - [[User:Lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 12:30, 11 February, 2006

::Yeah I saw those too; it's what I based the info about Baltar running for President on (look really hard).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:40, 10 February 2006 (EST)

I am starting to think these spoilers were to throw us off the track...

Corrected a number of spelling mistakes - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

Note to everyone: I tend to make a lot of spelling mistakes because I'm hurrying, and worrying about spelling makes it harder for me to concentrate and focus on the information, and slows me down alot; I usually try to proofread my stuff when I'm "done" with an episode (after most of the notes and stuff around done) but I still tend to leave a typo here or there. I appreciate the spelling help. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:55, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Merovingian, don't worry, the quality article makes "up" for it ;) i do the same thing as well when it comes to writing up an article - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

:Yeah I usually only worry about spelling around Sundays, by which time we're more or less done. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)

::I think this is the right approach. We obviously want the capsule summaries sooner rather than later. And we don't criticise authors' typos as English may not be their native tongue and in any event if we waited for perfection we'd still be on the miniseries. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 08:14, 4 March 2006 (CST)

Does anyone know the music playing the the background from the first few scenes of this episode? --[[User:PioneerCreative|PioneerCreative]] 23:33, 3 March 2006 (CST)

How many Raptors are lost in the misjump into the mountain? One or two? I only thought it was on when I watched the episode and edited the summary to reflect this, but it seems '''everybody''' else seems to think it was a pair. Starbuck did say two names, but I interpreted those to be the pilot and ECO of a single Raptor. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 01:29, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:Helo says they have 17 Raptors left. They already lost Racetrack's. They then say two names, and Starbuck says "we lost Raptore six twelve"; Now, this sounds confusing, but I don't think she said "Raptor 612"; I think she said "Raptors 6, 12" out of 20. Plus she did say two names; in addition, it wasn't just pilots but also marines, so one name wouldn't make as much sense. Although a little fuzzy, this still fits the "19-17=2" thing, instead of us jumping to believe that another Raptor got lost in a completely undocumented event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 01:36, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::I remember hearing Helo say they had seventeen left after (I thought) a single one had been lost in the mountain and thinking nineteen was an odd starting number, having missed the earlier reference to the entire complement being twenty. If the starting force did indeed number twenty, it seems clear two Raptors were indeed lost in the final jump and I was mistaken. I will point out, however, that Starbuck would be much less likely to know the names of marines lost on board a ship, while it's almost a given she would know who the flight crew were. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 02:01, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::Helo actually says, "Wait a minute, we lost ''another'' Raptor. I'm only reading 17 ''out there''." His DRADIS screen doesn't display the Raptor they are in - that behavior was shown clearly in Scattered. Galactica's DRADIS was completely empty when they were seperated from the fleet, it didn't show Galactica itself as a single contact. So, clearly, Helo is talking about there being 17 other Raptors, in addition to the one he, Starbuck, and Sharon are in. In addition, Starbuck clearly says Raptor, not Raptors, and it is extremely unlikely that she would verbally separate a list of two numbers with an implied comma rather than the word 'and'. Not to mention, Raptors are commonly referred to by their 3-digit flight number. So only two Raptors were lost - Racetrack's miscalculated jump, and Raptor 612, which jumped into the mountain. Eighteen landed safely on Caprica. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 09:00, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::Xenophon is right on the money. Oh well, this means I don't have to right all that. I suddenly want to read "The Ten Thousand" again... --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:24, 4 March 2006 (CST)

BTW: in case anyone was wondering later; in the podcast, RDM confirms that by "jumped into the mountain" he doesn't mean "they jumped close to it and thus crashed", he means, exactly like a ''Star Trek'' transporter accident, that they materialized from the Jump "in solid rock" like a transporter accident. Cool. (It's what I assumed too).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:39, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::If the FTL drive works by opening up a wormhole then it seems like jumping into a mountain would create a sphear of rock that would be 'jumped' into space while the raptor swapped places with it. Likewise a puff of air would be seen if you were observing the spot from which the the raptors made their final jump into the atomosphere. If that was the case it would be possible for the unfortunate raptor to just jump itself out of the mountain. On the other hand perhaps opening up the wormhole w/one end in the mountain perhaps the raptor collided with the rock that was being 'jumped out' leaving its transponder intact inside the mountain but the raptor & its crew would be smashed up. If this is the case FTL's could make useful mining tools. If some valuable ore is buried at the center of a planet or star just use an FTL to open up a wormhole and let it come out. Say your water tanks are empty. Just open up a wormhole inside the tank with the other end in some fresh water lake & the water will pour out and fill you up. -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

:::Oh man, you're getting into quantum physics, and while that makes for a fascinating discussion (appropriate for here, if you wish), I'll prefix this by saying that RDM has stated, several times, that he's not one for techno-babble-geekiness. Let's just figure the folks in that Raptor got "rocked" (sorry, bad pun... I could have said "stoned") and won't be seen again. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:49, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:::Fair point. I love that RDM has kept away from geeking the series up with psuedo-science but the mind can't help but wonder about these things. --[[User:Boonton|Boonton]] 14:09, 6 March 2006 (CST)

Is the planet in this episode [[Earth]]? -- [[User:John-1107|John-1107]] 09:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:No. The leaders know roughly where Earth is, and it's very far away from their current position. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 09:13, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::Not to mention that Earth is neither barren nor hidden in a nebula. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:47, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Not now, at least. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 15:30, 4 March 2006 (EST)

==Raptor Count==
Questions:
#Did we get the 20 raptor count in dialog?
#We lost Racetrack on the first jump and Raptor 612 on the last. The SAR team had 17 raptors after that, so if they started off with 20, they lost one other in between. Only Raptor 612 got up close and personal with the mountain. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:51, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:No, Farago. She said "RaptorS 6, 12". They lost 2 in the final jump, 1 when Racetrack got lost, and none in between. Starbuck lists off two names. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:12, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:Counting the one they're in (Helo said something like "there are only 17 Raptors '''out there'''") it would have to be Raptor 612 (they've paused like that before in dialogue "Raptor 6..12").
*17 other survivors
*Starbucks (one with Heavy Raider brain)
*612 (in mountain)
*Racetracks
=20
::Helo is in Starbuck's Raptor, which would not show up on his screen. The correct count is Helo/Starbuck's ship, + Racetrack, + Raptor 612 (lost in the mountain), + 17 others = 20. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 09:28, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::Yes, but are we ''certain'' there were 20 raptors to begin with? It's not given in dialog, and I haven't been able to get a good count from any CGI shots. According to sadgeezer, these are the pilots that checkin with Starbuck over wireless:
:::#Headcase
:::#Swordsman
:::#Shoestrap
:::#Scumball
:::#Milko
:::#Skylar
:::#Ronin
:::#Brake
:::#Boulion
:::#Steaker
:::#Hamster
:::#Bo
:::#Chaser
:::#Godama
:::#Charlieman
:::#Starcloud
:::#Racetrack
:::#Callon
:::#...and Starbuck.
:::I suppose the raptor piloted by "Toughguy" and "Carousel" makes 20. I also hear an unintellgable name between "Swordsman" and "Shoestrap", but I can't actually hear "Toughguy" either - they might be the same person. I think it's worth noting that [[Stubbs]] isn't on this list - this reinforces my opinion that he was the pilot killed in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I", but I suppose it's possible that he's still around and just opted out of the mission.
:::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:00, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::::I'm confused - I don't remember hearing that many checkins. The only time I recall them doing it, I heard at most a couple followed by Racetrack and then they were done. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 22:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Raptor Reconciliation ==

In Scar the mining ship was mining metals for Pegas's production teams to construct new vipers. Isn't it possible they produced some raptors as well?
:It might be, but just like an automobile factory, it would probably take substantial effort and material to re-tool the ''Pegasus'' viper factory for raptors. Switching to another variety of the same vehicle (Corollas to Camrys, or Mark II vipers to Mark VII) takes some doing; this would be a much bigger change. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 5 March 2006 6:08 p.m. (EST).
::Well, the Pegasus has the capablility to build one craft in it's air wing. Logically, she should also be able to produce other ones. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:59, 5 March 2006 (CST)

==Noodles note==

I think the noodles note on this went on far longer than it should; just leave it with "this is something his father did too": pointing out all of the superstitions and stuff just ran on--->unless RDM himself mentions this kind of thing in the podcast, she should not use it here; RDM indeed did not mention it in the podcast for LDYB part I. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:05, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Spoiler's Right or Wrong ==

So were the spoilers that were posted before the episode aired a red herring? The planet was not offered by the cyclons as part of a peace initive. Since one of the selling points of this planet is that it is supposedly unlikely to be found by the cyclons wouldn't any of them showing up in part 2 basically spoil the whole idea? -- ''attributed to'' [[User:Boonton|Boonton]] ''@ unknown time''

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I/Archive 1

2006-03-06T19:42:11Z

Boonton:

Since, according to IMDB, Dean Stockwell has been credited with the role of Brother Cavell (not Cavill) ... should this page be modified? Apparently, one more cylon has been identified.

:Not sure. All the ep guide says is that Cavell is a Humano-Cylon priest. IS it possible that the spoiler is wrong and he's really just a religious leader (possibly replacing Elosha) who is promoting a Human-Cylon peace? --Ltcrashdown 22:19, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've been spoiled, and can tell you that he is indeed a Cylon (unless he has an identical twin brother). [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:49, 4 March 2006 (EST)

Found some pics - Spoiler Warning - http://pics.livejournal.com/ravenclawdrew/gallery/0000wa1h - [[User:Lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 12:30, 11 February, 2006

::Yeah I saw those too; it's what I based the info about Baltar running for President on (look really hard).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 20:40, 10 February 2006 (EST)

I am starting to think these spoilers were to throw us off the track...

Corrected a number of spelling mistakes - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

Note to everyone: I tend to make a lot of spelling mistakes because I'm hurrying, and worrying about spelling makes it harder for me to concentrate and focus on the information, and slows me down alot; I usually try to proofread my stuff when I'm "done" with an episode (after most of the notes and stuff around done) but I still tend to leave a typo here or there. I appreciate the spelling help. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:55, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Merovingian, don't worry, the quality article makes "up" for it ;) i do the same thing as well when it comes to writing up an article - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 3rd March, 2006

:Yeah I usually only worry about spelling around Sundays, by which time we're more or less done. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)

::I think this is the right approach. We obviously want the capsule summaries sooner rather than later. And we don't criticise authors' typos as English may not be their native tongue and in any event if we waited for perfection we'd still be on the miniseries. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 08:14, 4 March 2006 (CST)

Does anyone know the music playing the the background from the first few scenes of this episode? --[[User:PioneerCreative|PioneerCreative]] 23:33, 3 March 2006 (CST)

How many Raptors are lost in the misjump into the mountain? One or two? I only thought it was on when I watched the episode and edited the summary to reflect this, but it seems '''everybody''' else seems to think it was a pair. Starbuck did say two names, but I interpreted those to be the pilot and ECO of a single Raptor. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 01:29, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:Helo says they have 17 Raptors left. They already lost Racetrack's. They then say two names, and Starbuck says "we lost Raptore six twelve"; Now, this sounds confusing, but I don't think she said "Raptor 612"; I think she said "Raptors 6, 12" out of 20. Plus she did say two names; in addition, it wasn't just pilots but also marines, so one name wouldn't make as much sense. Although a little fuzzy, this still fits the "19-17=2" thing, instead of us jumping to believe that another Raptor got lost in a completely undocumented event. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 01:36, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::I remember hearing Helo say they had seventeen left after (I thought) a single one had been lost in the mountain and thinking nineteen was an odd starting number, having missed the earlier reference to the entire complement being twenty. If the starting force did indeed number twenty, it seems clear two Raptors were indeed lost in the final jump and I was mistaken. I will point out, however, that Starbuck would be much less likely to know the names of marines lost on board a ship, while it's almost a given she would know who the flight crew were. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 02:01, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::Helo actually says, "Wait a minute, we lost ''another'' Raptor. I'm only reading 17 ''out there''." His DRADIS screen doesn't display the Raptor they are in - that behavior was shown clearly in Scattered. Galactica's DRADIS was completely empty when they were seperated from the fleet, it didn't show Galactica itself as a single contact. So, clearly, Helo is talking about there being 17 other Raptors, in addition to the one he, Starbuck, and Sharon are in. In addition, Starbuck clearly says Raptor, not Raptors, and it is extremely unlikely that she would verbally separate a list of two numbers with an implied comma rather than the word 'and'. Not to mention, Raptors are commonly referred to by their 3-digit flight number. So only two Raptors were lost - Racetrack's miscalculated jump, and Raptor 612, which jumped into the mountain. Eighteen landed safely on Caprica. --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 09:00, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::::Xenophon is right on the money. Oh well, this means I don't have to right all that. I suddenly want to read "The Ten Thousand" again... --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 09:24, 4 March 2006 (CST)

BTW: in case anyone was wondering later; in the podcast, RDM confirms that by "jumped into the mountain" he doesn't mean "they jumped close to it and thus crashed", he means, exactly like a ''Star Trek'' transporter accident, that they materialized from the Jump "in solid rock" like a transporter accident. Cool. (It's what I assumed too).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:39, 4 March 2006 (CST)

::If the FTL drive works by opening up a wormhole then it seems like jumping into a mountain would create a sphear of rock that would be 'jumped' into space while the raptor swapped places with it. Likewise a puff of air would be seen if you were observing the spot from which the the raptors made their final jump into the atomosphere. If that was the case it would be possible for the unfortunate raptor to just jump itself out of the mountain. On the other hand perhaps opening up the wormhole w/one end in the mountain perhaps the raptor collided with the rock that was being 'jumped out' leaving its transponder intact inside the mountain but the raptor & its crew would be smashed up. If this is the case FTL's could make useful mining tools. If some valuable ore is buried at the center of a planet or star just use an FTL to open up a wormhole and let it come out. Say your water tanks are empty. Just open up a wormhole inside the tank with the other end in some fresh water lake & the water will pour out and fill you up.

Is the planet in this episode [[Earth]]? -- [[User:John-1107|John-1107]] 09:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:No. The leaders know roughly where Earth is, and it's very far away from their current position. [[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 09:13, 4 March 2006 (CST)
::Not to mention that Earth is neither barren nor hidden in a nebula. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:47, 4 March 2006 (EST)
:::Not now, at least. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 15:30, 4 March 2006 (EST)

==Raptor Count==
Questions:
#Did we get the 20 raptor count in dialog?
#We lost Racetrack on the first jump and Raptor 612 on the last. The SAR team had 17 raptors after that, so if they started off with 20, they lost one other in between. Only Raptor 612 got up close and personal with the mountain. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:51, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:No, Farago. She said "RaptorS 6, 12". They lost 2 in the final jump, 1 when Racetrack got lost, and none in between. Starbuck lists off two names. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:12, 4 March 2006 (CST)
:Counting the one they're in (Helo said something like "there are only 17 Raptors '''out there'''") it would have to be Raptor 612 (they've paused like that before in dialogue "Raptor 6..12").
*17 other survivors
*Starbucks (one with Heavy Raider brain)
*612 (in mountain)
*Racetracks
=20
::Helo is in Starbuck's Raptor, which would not show up on his screen. The correct count is Helo/Starbuck's ship, + Racetrack, + Raptor 612 (lost in the mountain), + 17 others = 20. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 09:28, 5 March 2006 (CST)

:::Yes, but are we ''certain'' there were 20 raptors to begin with? It's not given in dialog, and I haven't been able to get a good count from any CGI shots. According to sadgeezer, these are the pilots that checkin with Starbuck over wireless:
:::#Headcase
:::#Swordsman
:::#Shoestrap
:::#Scumball
:::#Milko
:::#Skylar
:::#Ronin
:::#Brake
:::#Boulion
:::#Steaker
:::#Hamster
:::#Bo
:::#Chaser
:::#Godama
:::#Charlieman
:::#Starcloud
:::#Racetrack
:::#Callon
:::#...and Starbuck.
:::I suppose the raptor piloted by "Toughguy" and "Carousel" makes 20. I also hear an unintellgable name between "Swordsman" and "Shoestrap", but I can't actually hear "Toughguy" either - they might be the same person. I think it's worth noting that [[Stubbs]] isn't on this list - this reinforces my opinion that he was the pilot killed in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I", but I suppose it's possible that he's still around and just opted out of the mission.
:::--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:00, 5 March 2006 (CST)

::::I'm confused - I don't remember hearing that many checkins. The only time I recall them doing it, I heard at most a couple followed by Racetrack and then they were done. -[[User:CWD|CWD]] 22:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Raptor Reconciliation ==

In Scar the mining ship was mining metals for Pegas's production teams to construct new vipers. Isn't it possible they produced some raptors as well?
:It might be, but just like an automobile factory, it would probably take substantial effort and material to re-tool the ''Pegasus'' viper factory for raptors. Switching to another variety of the same vehicle (Corollas to Camrys, or Mark II vipers to Mark VII) takes some doing; this would be a much bigger change. [[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 5 March 2006 6:08 p.m. (EST).
::Well, the Pegasus has the capablility to build one craft in it's air wing. Logically, she should also be able to produce other ones. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:59, 5 March 2006 (CST)

==Noodles note==

I think the noodles note on this went on far longer than it should; just leave it with "this is something his father did too": pointing out all of the superstitions and stuff just ran on--->unless RDM himself mentions this kind of thing in the podcast, she should not use it here; RDM indeed did not mention it in the podcast for LDYB part I. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:05, 5 March 2006 (CST)

== Spoiler's Right or Wrong ==

So were the spoilers that were posted before the episode aired a red herring? The planet was not offered by the cyclons as part of a peace initive. Since one of the selling points of this planet is that it is supposedly unlikely to be found by the cyclons wouldn't any of them showing up in part 2 basically spoil the whole idea?

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I/Archive 1

2006-03-06T19:22:23Z

Boonton: Spoiler's Right or Wrong

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I/Archive 1

2006-03-05T14:02:53Z

Boonton: Raptor Reconciliation