Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Gaius Baltar

2006-05-14T19:28:29Z

Barce: /* Gaius as President */ fixed typo and spelling

:''This page discusses the unwitting betrayer of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]]. For information on the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] character that intentionally betrays the [[The Twelve Colonies (TOS)|Twelve Colonies of Man]], see [[Baltar (TOS)|Baltar]].''
{{Character Data|
|photo= [[Image:Gaius Baltar promo.jpg|200px]]
|age=
|colony= [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]
|birthname= Gaius Baltar
|callsign=
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status= Single, in a relationship with a [[Cylon-Related_Hallucinations#Baltar.27s_Internal_Six|hallucination of Number Six]]. Previously involved with [[Caprica-Six|the "real" Number Six]] and [[Gina]].
|role= President of [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|the Twelve Colonies]]
|rank=
|actor= [[James Callis]]
|cylon=
|name=
}}
__TOC__
== Background ==

Dr. '''Gaius Baltar''' was formerly a lead defense systems developer working for the [[Colonial Ministry of Defense]] and was widely considered a genius and celebrity throughout [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|the Twelve Colonies]]. Baltar came to prominence as a computer technology designer having won three [[Magnate Prize]]s. Baltar was born on [[The_Twelve_Colonies_(RDM)#Sagittaron |Sagittaron]] and attracted to [[The_Twelve_Colonies_(RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] by the Defense Ministry{{ref|birthplace}}. He networks with others well, and became personal friends with President [[Adar (RDM)|Adar]]. Baltar becomes responsible for the design of the critical [[Command Navigation Program]] (CNP) used throughout the [[Colonial Fleet]]. Baltar's scientific prowess seems strongest in the medical and biological fields. As a result of his lesser (although still advanced) computer programming skills, he seeks the help (and as a byproduct, the affections of) a young woman named [[Number Six|Natasi]] to aid him with the CNP.

Elegantly dressed and aesthetically handsome, with the affected humility of the truly arrogant, Baltar is nonetheless a deeply flawed person and almost pathologically narcissist. Beneath his outstanding abilities lurks a dramatic weakness of character. Self-absorbed, sly, guileful, lecherous and utterly dedicated to his own self-preservation, Baltar carried on a two-year affair with Natasi-- even to the extent of using code she herself wrote to overcome shortfalls in his CNP -- and thus allowed her unrestricted access to some of the most sensitive systems of the Colonial defenses.

Baltar is currently President of the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], succeeding President [[Laura Roslin]].

== [[Cylon Attack]] ==
[[image:Mini-Baltar_Six.jpg|thumb|left|300px|[[Gaius Baltar]] and [[Caprica-Six|Number Six]] kissing in the [[Miniseries]]. (C. SciFi Channel)]]
When the Cylons launch their attack, Baltar becomes horrified to learn that his "corporate spy" lover is in fact a new type of Cylon -- a [[Cylon agent|Cylon in human form]], able to mimic human beings down to the smallest detail -- and that she altered his CNP as a gateway to make all integrated Colonial computers and defense systems vulnerable to a Cylon virus that subverts their command and control systems.

Appalled by the fact that his sexual folly has led to the virtual holocaust of humanity, Baltar is nevertheless determined not only to survive but also avoid having his unintended treachery revealed.

Rescued on Caprica following the forced-landing of a Colonial [[Raptor]] -- at the cost of [[Karl Agathon|one of the crew staying behind]] ([[Miniseries]]) -- he is pleased to find himself treated with the same esteem he enjoyed back on Caprica. His only problem is that [[Number Six]], his former "lover" -- herself ostensibly destroyed in the shock wave of a nuclear blast -- now appears to him in visions, and he cannot be sure whether this is a result of his own guilt at his actions or whether -- as she initially claims -- she is part of a chip that has been implanted in his brain{{ref|chip}}.

Shortly after Baltar's arrival on ''Galactica'', Commander [[William Adama]] learns that Cylons can mimic human form, and Baltar is put to work trying to devise a means of detecting these humanoid Cylons. By an educated guess (and an apparent attempt to distract those who suspected him of treachery), he exposes [[Aaron Doral]] -- a PR executive who co-ordinated the media coverage of ''Galactica's'' decommissioning -- as a Cylon agent ([[Miniseries]]), using little more than invented [[technobabble]] to convince [[Saul Tigh|Colonel Tigh]]. Despite his protestations of innocence, Doral is marooned at [[Ragnar Anchorage]], but soon a team of Cylon agents appear to pick up the stranded Doral. Baltar's educated guess was correct--Doral was indeed a Cylon agent.

Due to his unique abilities, Baltar is charged with turning his initial "[[Cylon detector]]" into a working machine capable of screening everyone in [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]]. While he at first balks at this task, events such as the sabotaging of ''Galactica's'' water reserves ([[Water]]) force him into a position where he can no longer procrastinate over the detector -- despite his fear that such a device might somehow expose him as the original traitor among humans. Gaining aid from a most unusual source -- his "virtual" Six ([[Bastille Day]]), who gets him to request a nuclear warhead for the detector -- Baltar eventually develops a genuine detector; which functions by exposing cell samples to the warhead's radiation, because it has already been demonstrated ([[Miniseries]]) that Cylons are more susceptible to certain kinds of radiation. This, together with his survival of a foiled attempt to expose him as a traitor ([[Six Degrees of Separation]]), firmly establishes his credentials within the Fleet's hierarchy.

With this new-found trust, and despite his willingness to deliberately conceal vital information, such as [[Sharon Valerii#"Boomer" Valerii|Lieutenant Valerii's]] true status as a [[Cylon agent]] ([[Flesh and Bone]]), Baltar willing enters the realm of political leadership, first as the Representative for [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] on the [[Quorum of Twelve]], and then as the newly-elected Vice President of the Colonies ([[Colonial Day]]).

== Cylon Manipulations ==

The Cylons commenced their direct manipulations of Baltar some two years prior to the attack on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]], by bringing him into contact with their agent, [[Number Six]], who started a torrid affair with him while at the same time using him to access vital Colonial command and control systems within the Ministry of Defense ([[Miniseries]]).

This manipulation continues even after the Doctor leaves Caprica behind, with Six appearing to him in sensory perceptions, possibly through an implant in his brain ([[Miniseries]]) or perhaps even through a series of psychotic hallucinations as the doctor struggles to reconcile his guilt and his desire of self-preservation.

Regardless of the cause of her appearances, Six continues to help and hinder Baltar, gradually drawing him to a point of near-open acceptance and participation in Cylon plans and activities ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). The majority of this manipulation has been through religious intrigue, linked to physical threats to Baltar's well-being or that of other humans. These manipulations include:

* Using the threat of Baltar's former colleague, Dr. [[Amorak]], attempting to contact [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] with information on a "traitor" within Colonial circles -- and only "removing" this threat once Baltar has "repented of his sins" ([[33]])
* Using the threat of direct accusation (in the form of "[[Shelly Godfrey]]") coupled with "photographic evidence" -- and only "removing" this threat once Baltar has "accepted" [[God]] into his life ([[Six Degrees of Separation]])
[[image:Scattered-Baltar_Six.jpg|thumb|[[Gaius Baltar]] and [[Number Six]] seeing "the shape of things to come" in "[[Scattered]]". (C. Universal Studios)]]
Baltar's near-acquiescence to the [[God|Cylon religion]] comes when he goes through a process similar to the [[wikipedia:Evangelicalism|evangelical Christian]] belief in "rebirth" through adult baptism. In this, the new believer in the Christian faith is baptized (generally through full immersion in water), symbolizing the "death" of the "old" self and "birth" of the "new" Christian self. In "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]", Baltar apparently undergoes "death" at the hands of his inner Six when she "breaks" his neck -- and is "reborn" in his real life as the "instrument of God", able to point-out precisely where Colonial forces must strike in order to eliminate the Cylon base preventing them from accessing supplies of [[Tylium|tylium]] ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

This act leaves Baltar ripe for the final revelation of his role within Cylon expectations, when "the future" is revealed to him by Six on [[Kobol]], in the form of the first of "God's new generation of children" ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Baltar is not particularly pleased by this, especially when he learns that he is to be the father and that the mother will be Six ([[Scattered]]). Despite this, when he believes Commander Adama is trying to kill the child in one of his dreams, he tries to stop this ([[Valley of Darkness]]).

==Survival on Kobol==
[[Image:Baltarixvalleydarkness.jpg|Number Six showing Baltar the clearing filled with human bones, telling him they were from human sacrifices.|thumb]]
While stranded on Kobol, Baltar "awoke" in a clearing filled with human bones. Number Six tells him the bones were from human sacrifices, and that all of the myths about the gods of Kobol and the paradise on Kobol were a lie to hide the true brutality of man, which increases Baltar's cynical opinion of humanity. Number Six also warns that one of the survivors of Baltar's crash would turn against the others.

The Raptor crash survivors, consisting of Baltar, Chief [[Galen Tyrol]], [[Cally]], [[Seelix]], and ranking crew member [[Crashdown]], a lieutenant, are faced with [[Cylon Centurion]]s building a missile battery that will destroy any rescue ships trying to save them. Crashdown, obsessed with success after the deaths of [[Tarn]] and [[Socinus]], orders the team to make a suicidal attack on the Cylon position. Baltar has never fired a weapon in his life and feels it could not be done. Due to the fact that he was the only non-military member of the survivors, he insists that they put it to a vote before Tyrol shouts him down to follow the chain of command.

On starting the attack, Cally freezes in terror, unable to create the needed diversion. Crashdown points his gun at her head and threatens to kill her if she does not obey the order. Immediately, Tyrol levels his gun at Crashdown. A tense standoff ensues. Just as Crashdown is about to fire, Baltar shoots him in the back, killing him instantly{{ref|killing}}. The group successfully carries out the alternate plan of attacking the Cylon's [[DRADIS]] dish, and are rescued by the Raptors. Baltar tells the [[SAR]] team that Crashdown died a hero in the fight, and Tyrol reluctantly corroborates his story ([[Fragged]]).

==Return to ''Galactica''==

Back on ''Galactica'', Baltar insists that if Roslin's presidency was terminated, as Vice President he should then succeed her in command, but Col. Tigh dismisses the notion because he has instituted martial law in [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]]. Later, Cally blackmails Baltar into making it a priority to prove that Chief Tyrol is not a Cylon, as Col. Tigh suspects, or Cally would reveal to all that it was really Baltar that killed Crashdown. Baltar pushes Cally against the wall and lectures her sternly, but she refuses to back down, telling him to "help the Chief [by] help[ing] [him]self." Incensed at this ingratitude, Baltar heads to the [[brig]] to take a blood sample from Tyrol, located in the same cell as [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Boomer]], but actually injects him with a toxin that will kill him in seconds without an antidote. Baltar uses Tyrol's importance to Boomer to coerce the panicked Cylon agent to disclose how many remaining humanoid Cylons are hiding in the Fleet. He gambles that, even if Valerii was programmed to think she was human, on a subconscious level she truly ''would'' know the answer as a Cylon operative. With time running out, she shouts out "Eight!" Baltar revives Tyrol. Baltar plans to perform a series of experiments on Boomer, but she is soon killed by Cally ([[Resistance]]).
[[image:brainscan.jpg|Baltar recieves his brain scan from Dr. Cottle, as Six watches on in amusement.|thumb]]
Some time later, as Commander Adama attempts to retrieve President Roslin and reunite the Fleet, Baltar yells at his internal Number Six for her increasingly ridiculous random changes in appearance, even questioning her actual existence. She responds by simplifying her appearance and attitude and told him that he truly had gone crazy, claiming there is no "computer chip" in his head with her personality, and that she is indeed a hallucination brought on by his guilt-ridden subconscious. Baltar has a brain scan performed in [[sickbay]] by Dr. [[Cottle]] (despite ''interference'' from Six), which confirms no "foreign objects" are present in his head. Baltar is ready to believe that he is truly insane when he hears [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Sharon]] discuss Valerii's pregnancy with a Cylon/Human hybrid child from his observation room. Six told Baltar earlier that "their child" would be born in that cell, and this leads Baltar to realize that Six ''must'' be real because his subconscious couldn't have known that. Number Six says that she is indeed real and not a hallucination. While she still denies the presence of a chip in Baltar's head, she claims to be "an angel of God sent here to protect [Baltar]". Six tells Baltar that by "their" child she is referring to Caprica-Valerii's biological child: Six considers herself the mother, and Baltar the father ([[Home, Part II]]).

When [[D'anna Biers]] films a documentary about life aboard ''Galactica'', Six urges Baltar to give an interview to try to win people over to thinking that he should be running the Fleet. Baltar performs badly as he begins his interview but, fortunately, his interview is interrupted by a Cylon attack that Biers chooses to film instead ([[Final Cut]]).

Baltar aids in trying to overcome the Cylon [[logic bomb]] which devastates ''Galactica's'' [[computers]]. Tigh's dislike of Baltar's involvement in this problem makes the scientist edgy enough to retort, "I'm sorry. Do you want to survive this one or not, Colonel?" ([[Flight of the Phoenix]])
[[image:baltargina.jpg|Baltar with Gina, the Cyclon prisoner from ''Pegasus''.|thumb]]

==Arrival of ''Pegasus''==

When battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' reunites with the Fleet, Commander Adama requests that Baltar examine ''Pegasus' '' own Cylon prisoner to see what information he could glean from it. Upon arrival in the ''Pegasus'' brig, Baltar is horrified to discover the Cylon was a terribly abused and tortured copy of Number Six named "[[Gina]]". Baltar vows to help her in any way he could, and begins by having her restraints removed and bringing food to her. The inhumane treatment of Gina by the ''Pegasus'' crew likely makes Gaius more critical of humanity's worth ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).

Over the course of his examination of Gina, he uncovers both her wish to die and the secret of the Cylon [[Resurrection Ship]]. He passes this information to Adama and [[Helena Cain|Admiral Helena Cain]], who develop an [[Attack on the Resurrection Ship|operation to destroy it]] ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

Baltar continues to spend time with Gina, growing closer to her despite Six's pleas to the contrary and eventually helps Gina escape from the brig. He tells Gina that he can hide her, and also that he loves her. Gina goes on to kill Cain and escapes from the ''Pegasus'' through unexplained means, although it is probable that Baltar had something to do with it ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]).

==Serving Everyone, but No One==

To many others, Dr. Baltar's personality appears to exhibit more odd behavior than what may be considered the expected eccentricity of a genius. Crewmembers on ''Galactica'' find him mumbling with himself or discovering him in places they do not expect, such as aboard battlestar ''Pegasus'' to see its new commander, [[Jack Fisk]]. Torn between the "flesh and blood" copy of the [[Number Six]] copy, Gina, the demands of his internal Number Six, and his continuing attempt to cover his own multiple duplicities, Baltar becomes more aggressive and confrontational. With President Roslin's advice to abort the Cylon-hybrid fetus of the incarcerated [[Sharon Valerii]], Baltar reacts to defend it as if it were his own child (as does his internal Six, who threatens him on the problem). Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] admonishes Baltar, telling him that, on Roslin's death, he will become President and that he needs to behave like one.

Desperate to save Valerii's fetus, Baltar reviews Dr. [[Cottle]]'s medical tests and performs experiments of his own, learning a striking revelation: the blood of the fetus can destroy cancer and repair its damage to human tissue. With Admiral Adama's permission, he injects the dying President Roslin with some of the fetal blood, which works miraculously, saving both Roslin and Valerii's child by circumstance.

After saving Roslin's life, Baltar reads the letter given to him in the event of her death, in which she says he lacks compassion and asks him to open his heart if he becomes president. Furious, and goaded on by Six who tells him that Roslin doesn't trust him, Baltar delivers the nuclear warhead used for the Cylon detector to Gina and her militant [[Demand Peace]] movement. ([[Epiphanies]]).

Baltar keeps his [[fumarello]] supply fresh by trading in the [[black market (organization)|black market]] through new ''Pegasus'' Commander [[Jack Fisk]]. Not realizing that Fisk had been murdered, the scientist visits Fisk's quarters, only to meet Captain [[Lee Adama]], who has starten an investigation on the black market and Fisk's murder. Baltar truthfully tells Adama that he knows nothing of Fisk's murder, but Adama correctly deduces Baltar's association with Fisk and the black market since the "Caprica Imperials" fumarellos are a known favorite of Baltar's.

Baltar is also unaware that his involvement in the destruction of the Colonies is partially revealed. In ''Galactica's'' sickbay, Laura Roslin recalled those final days on Caprica, and remembered Baltar in the company of a woman on Caprica who she knows now is a [[Number Six|Cylon agent]]. Baltar is summoned to ''[[Colonial One]]'', where Roslin offers him, without explanation, the chance to resign from the Vice Presidency to return to his studies. Baltar becomes immediately suspicious (and frightened) in Roslin's succinct and direct vote of no-confidence in her vice president. Realizing that the Vice Presidency now has greater importance (if nothing other than to save his own hide), Baltar turns down what Roslin calls a "one-time offer" to save himself as he saved Roslin on her
deathbed ([[Black Market]]).

== Gaius as President ==
[[Image:Baltarlaydownburdensii.jpg|Gaius Baltar as President, from ''Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II''.|thumb]]
Dr. Baltar decides (with no small influence from Six and [[Tom Zarek]]) to run for President in the coming Colonial Elections ([[The Captain's Hand]]).

Roslin is declared the winner of the elections, but is caught by Adama for manipulating the tally, and Baltar is declared president. Though Baltar demands an investigation initially, he backs down under Adama's glare. President Baltar orders the Fleet to return to the marginally habitable planet [[New Caprica]] seconds after his inauguration. Baltar shows incompetency as president a few days later, when he orders the colonization of the planet rather than further investigation into the destruction of ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' and two other ships (he correctly guesses that the conflagration was started by [[Gina]]).

A year passes. On [[New Caprica]], Baltar indulges in women, appears unsympathetic to the supply and resource problems plaguing the new colony, whose inhabitants continue to live in tents. The public appears displeased with his administration. The Cylon armada finds the planet, which prompts the return of the dormant virual Number Six, who observes it to Baltar as "judgement day" at last. Copies of a [[Number Five|Five]], [[Number Six]], and [[Number Eight|Eight]] meet with Baltar and his cabinet, recommending surrender. Baltar soon realizes, after she speaks, that the Number Six copy appearing before him was in fact [[Caprica-Six]], the reincarnated personality he had a relationship on Caprica (and who was the key agent in the compromising of the [[CNP]]). The Cylon agents (or leaders, as the case may be) claim that they found the planet by accident, due to trace radiation from a nuclear explosion; the one caused by the bomb Baltar donated to [[Gina]] ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

== Speculation: The Real Baltar? ==

There is speculation that Gaius Baltar could be a Cylon agent himself. See the [[Cylon agent speculation#Gaius Baltar?|Cylon Speculation]] article for the pros and cons of this theory.

==Notes==

#{{note|chip}}The idea that Six is an actual chip in Baltar's head was dismissed by Dr. [[Cottle]]'s image scan of Baltar's head. See [[Gaius Baltar#Speculation: The Real Baltar?|the section on alternate reasons for Six's existence]] for more.
#{{note|killing}}The act of killing Crashdown appears to have led to a dramatic change in Baltar's attitude toward hurting anyone directly. When Cally tries to blackmail him after they return from Kobol, Baltar is somewhat rough with her. When he visits Tyrol and Boomer in the brig, he does not hesitate to inject Tyrol with fatal drugs to blackmail Boomer into giving Cylon secrets. Baltar's humanitarian acts to the Six copy known as Gina also suggests Baltar's attitude in the care of Cylons is further changing. More and more, Baltar appears to prefer direct intervention and is less cowardly in his attitude.
#{{note|birthplace}} Baltar's planet of birth and recruitment by the Colonial Defense Ministry to Caprica are according to SkyOne. However, information from SkyOne may not be canonical at all.

Here is SkyOne's summary of Baltar:

:''Scientific genuis Gaius is one of the greatest minds humanity has to offer. Unfortunately, his abundance of intellect is counterbalanced by a complete lack of ethics. His moral weakness allows the Cylons to infiltrate and neutralize the defences of the 12 Colonies.''

:''Gaius Baltar was born on a farm on the colony of Sagittaron.''

:''His family had worked the land for three generations and even as a boy, Gaius hated farm life. Fortunately, his parents owned a large and sprawling agri-business controlling millions of acres across the planet; Gaius found a different use for farm life and used it to study science and maths.''

:''Gaius became more than a good student - he was a genuis at 14.''

:''By the age of 21 he had his first doctorate under his belt. Soon he was being hotly pursued by every major university to set up a research lab.''

:''Gaius' speciality was theoretical physics, but his true passion was computer science. He saw the prevailing anti-technological edicts as short-sighted, and believed in advancing human technology that the Cylons could not infiltrate.''

:''Because of his achievements, Gaius' help was needed by the Defence Ministry on top-secret projects. Gaius soon found himself the keeper of secrets, a position that flattered his already impressive ego.''

:''Still it wasn't enough; he hungered for a chance to work on a true artificial intelligence project. He then meets a smart and beautiful woman who seemed to understand him in a way no other had. She shared his passion of A.I. systems. The relationship lasted for two years and during this time she provided him with new and innovative ideas. Only one thing was missing; Gaius could not find out anything about her. Was it the perfect relationship he once thought it was?''

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=''(unknown)''|title=Caprican delegate to the [[Quorum of Twelve]]|after=''(unknown)''}}
{{succession box (spoiler-aft)|before=''(unknown)''|title=[[Government|Vice-President of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol]]|after=[[Tom Zarek]]}}
{{succession box|before=[[Laura Roslin]]|title=[[Government|President of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol]]|after=Incumbent}}
{{end box}}

{{Characters}}

{{featured article}}

[[Category:A to Z|Baltar, Gaius]]
[[Category:Characters|Baltar, Gaius]]
[[Category:RDM|Baltar, Gaius]]
[[Category:People from Caprica|Baltar, Gaius]]

User:Barce

2006-05-07T00:23:35Z

Barce:

Hi, I've been a fan of Battlestar Galactica since the Original Series. My favorite episodes so far are: "The Hand of God," "Scar," and the whole Pegasus story arc.

I keep a philosophy and food blog here: http://www.cyphgen.com/philo/

User:Barce

2006-05-06T23:13:10Z

Barce:

Hi, I'm new here.

Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad

2006-05-06T23:12:32Z

Barce: /* Oppose */

*[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01|Archive 1 (September 29th, 2005 to Present)]]:

:[[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Citation Consistency|Citation Consistency]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Request for name change|Request for name change]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#BSG: The Magazine|BSG: The Magazine]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Citation Format|Citation Format]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Character Ages|Character Ages]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Railguns|Railguns]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Twelve Lords of Kobol|Twelve Lords of Kobol]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Magazine Content|Magazine Content]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#To Do|To Do]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#BSG Books|BSG Books]], [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad/Archive01#Sources namespace|Sources namespace]]


==Koenigrules / Hollywood North Report==
"Koenigrules" (KR) is the alias of Jim Iaccino, a popular reporter of BSG spoilers, whose reports are often cited and reposted by other sources. [http://lvpodcasts.autopodcaster.com/download.php?filename=Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3/Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3 Recent comments] made on the "[http://www.subject2discussion.com/ Subject 2 Discussion]" segment of the "[http://www.lvrocks.com/ LV Rocks]" radio program (transcribed at [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 11 April 2006]]) raised the possibility that KR is merely re-reporting publically available information, and does not appear to be a credible primary source.

[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] investigated this possibility, and posted his findings to [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]]. [[User:Peter Farago|I]] raised the possibility of instating a policy against citing KR's reports as credible sources on Battlestar Wiki, which was seconded by [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]].

Consequently, I am opening a formal vote here on the matter. Please review [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 11 April 2006]], its putative [http://www.nowcasting.com/sides/Episodic/BATTLESTAR%20GALACTICA/301%20Occupation/Selloi_Dedona_4pgs.pdf source material], and The Merovingian's comments on [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]] prior to casting your vote, and feel free to raise any questions below. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:18, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update:''' Koenigrules has responded to a number of our concerns via e-mail. You can read my correspondence with him at [[Sources:Correspondence with Jim Iaccino]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 2:''' I will be transcribing KR's appearance on tonight's Subject 2 Discussion either later tonight or early tomorrow, and offer my considered opinion afterwards. I may request that the current "blacklist" vote be closed and recast as a more general discussion on the appropriateness of anonymous sources at battlestar wiki. Rebuttals will be welcome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:05, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 3:''' KR's latest appearance has been transcribed to [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 25 April 2006]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:45, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 4:''' My final opinion is available at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad#From Peter]]. I have changed my vote to "Oppose" and have supported Joe's suggestion of closing this vote and moving the topic of discussion to the appropriateness of anonymous sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:25, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 5:''' This poll was closed by Joe on May 2, 2006, in favor of "The Rumor Vote" below. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:27, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

===Blacklist Vote===

====In favor of a policy against citing KR as a primary source====
*<del>[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:36, 19 April 2006 (CDT) - I feel like this guy betrayed us. And it's getting worse; 4-5 news sites report things he says as fact; he is not helping at all. Dogger said: "''He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail.''"-->He put that more clearly than I could. Way to go Dogger. :)</del>
*<del>[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:11, 20 April 2006 (CDT) If he originates nothing, we lose nothing by not citing him.</del>
*<strike>[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:34, 20 April 2006 (CDT) - We do NOT claim to be a primary source here, and everything that is stated as fact should be citable elsewhere. Our sources are therefore our foundation, so they should be held to a high standard.</strike>
#[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:30, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:21, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:16, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I'm against the publication of anything except the facts.
# [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 17:12, 21 April 2006 (CDT) This is site is a reference, it would be misleading to publish anything other than citable information. I would vote the same no matter who we were talking about and spoilers without a named source seem to be a chance of forever cataloging misinformation. If this were a vote about sources and not a person I would be more comfortable but as it stands, I don't feel I can change my vote in good faith. I think spoilers except ones coming directly from writers or cast should be left off all together. If there is a more appropriate way for me to express this than this vote, I will consider changing it if not this is my input.-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 12:00, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 17:15, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I must concur. Too much flotsam.
#*[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 20:38, 21 April 2006 (CDT) <del>I've never heard KR 'reveal' anything that I haven't already seen from another source. I have always seen him as just somebody who reads the same things I read and then repeats them in another venue, but with an extra helping of certainty.</del> He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail. <del>Perhaps what he does might have some value as a 'digest' of what is being talked about, but I don't see why anyone but the most naive listener would consider him as a primary source.</del>
#*I have struck out parts of my comments that seem to have been proven wrong by some of the history presented in the thread on Skiffy. However, I cannot in good conscience change my vote because of the simple fact that I don't think that anyone claiming an anonymous source should really be considered a primary source, even if that source is genuine. Perhaps 'blacklist' is the wrong word. I simply see this as a test case for what is the appropriate kind of evidence that should be cited as authoritative. Singling out KR is probably unfair, but that doesn't change what I honestly think to be not an appropriate primary source for a wiki. If there were a vote to have a policy against citing any anonymous source as a primary source, then I would be in favour of that too. I consider this vote to be just an example of what I think should be an overall principle. For example, if KR were to name his source, then I don't see any reason not to consider citing that information. The problem I have is not with KR's honesty in particular -- it's with the idea of citing a source without giving the reader the benefit of evaluating its reliability, and that includes anonymity as well as the mixing of facts with speculation.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 19:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#*<del>[[User:Gouge|Frankie Gouge]] 02:20, 22 April 2006 (EDT) Credibility is too hard to earn to risk needlessly. Plenty of other sites to get speculative spoilers. </del>
#[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 14:31, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
#[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:40, 25 April 2006 (CDT) I listened enough to the radio show. (All Annoymous Sources too...)

====Opposed====
#[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:41, 26 April 2006 (CDT) Individual blacklisting is not appropriate for this case.
#[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 13:49, 26 April 2006 (CDT) It seems he does originate things after all.
#[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:09, 26 April 2006 (CDT) Let's not single out KR on the issue, but we do need to address the issue of anonymous sources (see below).
#[[User:Adedward|Adedward]] 23:28, 28 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:06, 2 May 2006 (CDT) - This discussion kind of evolved into the more generic discussion about anonymous sources in general, and I no longer support a ban on KR specifically. I think we already said it had changed and stuff last week, but I forgot to formally change my vote.

====Abstain====
#[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:33, 23 April 2006 (CDT) Changed to abstain because I don't feel I know enough about this issue to choose either way.
#[[User:Quig|Quig]] 10:09, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:53, 20 April 2006 (CDT) After reading the unfortunate thread on the Skiffy board and the dialgoue established between Peter and KR, I will abstain until I determine whether or not this whole thing was worth the heartache for all concerned.
#[[User:Gouge|Frankie Gouge]] 16:05, 24 April 2006 (EDT)
#[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:58, 26 April 2006 (EST)

===Motion by The Merovingian===
While KoenigRules and several of his collleagues insist that he does indeed have access to some sort of spoilers, all of them still will not confirm the veracity of these sources. Seeing as this is what they would do both if they were REAL and if they were NOT REAL sources, we thus arrive at an impasse. Therefore, I want to find some civil compromise over this: I'm a Uniter, not a Divider, and if we start turning on each other Rick Berman's new crackpot scheme to make Star Trek XI: Starfleet Academy will eat us BSG fans alive. '''Proposal''': If KoenigRules promises to be more careful in the future in his interviews, to *'''make it clear'''* when he is giving away '''direct information from his source(s)''', and when he is making a '''speculation''' ''based'' on either this purported source material, ''or'' just his own personal '''opinion''', we will reverse our decision to hold a vote to reject him as a reliable source. For example, if KoenigRules says in an interview "I think Baltar is a Cylon", he should really make it clear that that is just his opinion and not supported by any spoiler source information that he might have, as news sites might miscontrue his comments and lead to a world of trouble. However, the matter of HollyWoodNorthReport itself, which has come under frequent attack from many sites for improperly forgetting to use citations when they source material from other fansites, should be considered a separate matter.

I hope we can all agree to this.

:I don't think this subissue needs a vote. Koenigrules has indicated to me that he'll be able to reply here by monday. If he can adequately address the concerns we've raised, then naturally, the above discussion will be re-evaluated in light of that. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

====Support====
#--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:48, 22 April 2006 (CDT)

====Oppose====

== On anonymous sources ==

In lieu of all this, I am thinking of further clarifying the section defining what sources we should and should not use on the wiki. In particular, sources that are anonymous should not be referenced (this is fairly common sense, but isn't explicitly stated0. Also, for reference, we should probably add a definitive list of sources, grouped by categories from "uses anonymous source" to "trusted primary sources". (We have a list such as this already on the Citation page, though it could be better defined in my mind. ) Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:49, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:I agree (though I don't know how to set that up using wiki code).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:46, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
::We would set it up just like the "Image tagging policy" page. The only question is how do we define what is legit and what is not? If we consider how big the internet and how vast information can be found, anyone who reports on infomration at a regular basis could be considered legit, as long as the information is true. (i.e. Gateworld vs. HNR). This would also not benifit the little people. So I am not really a fan of this, but in light of the problem with spoilers vs. fact, this might be needed. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:02, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Well it now seems likely that KR does indeed have a source: he's been heavily involved since the Miniseries, and was on the original nuBSG fan page. What threw me in all of this is that that site **no longer exists**, so when I was trying to fact check his credibility it didn't come up. He still cannot reveal his source without compromising it, so I think Joe's "annonymous source" spoiler tag idea might be best. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I think anytime something can be better defined, it is a plus to the accuracy of the project. =)-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 12:02, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

Everyone I think this has been resolved after our contact with KoenigRules, and we should bring down the site notice on the Main Page that there's a vote going on regarding KR, as I think things have been resolved already and this would only confuse newcomers. KR seems entirely on the level to me now, and we should put this past and move on to other work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:40, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

:Absolutely not. This remains an important issue. Tomorrow night, I will transcribe his appearance on S2D and offer my final opinion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:13, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

===From Peter===

Alright then. Having spoken with KR and listened to his latest podcast, the following is now clear to me:
*KR is not merely re-reporting information gleaned from other sources available to the public. The overlap between the information in the Selloi Dedona casting side and the report made on the 11th is remarkable, but the information he supplied on the 25th cannot be accounted for in light of other publicly available material.
*KR asserts that he has a single, anonymous source for all his reports.
*KR has complied with every request we've made of him, clearly separating his personal speculation from information supplied by his source.

It is therefore my opinion that he has done everything we can reasonably expect him to do, considering the anonymity of his source. I therefore believe that singling him out for blacklisting is inappropriate. I am changing my opinion on the above vote to "oppose", and I support Joe's desire to let the matter drop and refocus the discussion on the nature of our sources.

The [[Battlestar Wiki:Spoiler Policy|Spoiler Policy]], arrived at by grudging compromise last autumn, makes the following statement:

<blockquote>All spoiler information must have a source, whether in the form of a [[Wikipedia:URL|URL]] or a printed publication text, on the ''talk page'' of the spoilerific article. For printed publication text, a copy must be scanned and uploaded to the wiki in the form of a [[Wikipedia:JPG|JPG]] or [[Wikipedia:PNG|PNG]], and posted on the talk page of the article containing the spoilerific content.</blockquote>

Naturally, this arises from a desire for Battlestar Wiki to be a reliable source. The nature of a wiki allows anybody to contribute news and information, which must be checked by a policy such as this. It would obviously be unacceptable to allow anybody to pass off ungrounded speculation as reported fact, bolstered in reputation by dint of its presence on the wiki.

However, the very nature of spoiler reporting renders impossible the goal of maintaining perfect accuracy while reporting on episodes not scheduled to air for months to come. Even the very best sources we can hope to come by - legitimate casting sides and call sheets, for example - may refer to script elements that end up being cut from the final broadcast. Set reports may refer to scenes which are filmed but not included, or be reported out of context.

This is an inevitability to which we must resign ourselves if we intend to report on spoilers at all. However, it can be mitigated by requiring attribution to individual reporters. The real problem with KR's reports is the anonymity of his source. Casting sides and call sheets which arrive in their original format are unlikely to be forged, and set reports substantiated by photographic evidence, but all we have to go on with regard to KR is his good reputation.

I find it awkward to judge submissions here based on such a nebulous concept as the reporter's reputation, which is why my personal preference leans to reporting only information which can be backed up by tangible evidence or sourced to individuals involved in production. However, it should be acknowledged that by excluding anonymous reports such as KR's, we will be depriving ourselves of a prolific source of timely and apparently reasonably accurate information.

Because I consider this a real and important dilemma, I want to solicit comment form other users on the issue of anonymous sources. Particularly relevant questions:
*Should they be allowed at all?
*If so, should we discriminate between different sources on the basis of reputation?
*If so, how should reputation be determined, and who should be responsible for determining it?
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:22, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

: '''(Intro)''' First of all, I listened to the podcast live. There was quite a number of people in the chat channel inclduing myself. Along with KR, was merv, Ribby, and a few other people that were in the orginal flame war on SciFi.com.
: '''(Question 1)''' anonymous Spoliers are the worest. First of all, they are considered [[Wikipedia:Hearsay]] which means the context of the spolier or information can change and exaserations can be made by the reporter. '''(From the Podcast on Question #1)''' When I listened last night he said he took through notes on what his source said, to make sure he kept the information straight. Usually I have pretty good ears, but I didn't hear any paper's or him lean away from the phone.
: '''(Question 2)''' If gateworld to report this as a spolier, and like this podcast OR link even us as the source with US sourceing it as an annoymous source, [http://gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/04/secondandthirdepisodetitle.shtml Gateworld] did not list this current radio cast as the source for them knowning the new title. This page was posted a good few hours before the radio show. They have yet to cite or deem these current spoliers on the website.
: '''(Question 3)''' I can not answer this, because I think offical sites, offical news orginzations, are the best place. If this came from Katte's website, or Apollo's then I would be OMG, but it didn't. It came from a source that can not even verify if the spoliers are correct. Teasers are '''offical spoliers''', you can choose to watch them or not, but they are offical. RDM podcasts are offical, RDM blog. etc... etc..
: '''(Conclustion)''' If he was to go on the show stright till october, we would know all of Season 3 BEFORE it happened. For this, I voted to not allow KR be a source, even if another "anonymous" soruce, and only allow '''offical spoliers''' to be reported. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 13:45, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:I'm not that keen on using anonymous sources at all. I don't think it's realistic for us to be everything to everyone, and would rather see us strive to be the concise, accurate, organized repository of BSG knowledge (and let the new sites and forums handle the spoiler info). I could see maybe having a "news" pages with links to such spoilers, but actually putting content into the article that we have no way of verifying (and could prove to be false) seems like a stretch.
:Maybe there's a way for us to be able to "report" the information, without compromising our accuracy. We could, for example, limit spoiler postings to spoiler news areas (which nobody updates anyway), and obvious spoiler pages (like the next season, and upcoming episodes). People reading those pages '''expect''' spoiler information, as there is no canon information available yet. The important thing to keep in mind would be making sure that once the page passes out of the realm of spoilers into to normal article space (by having an airdate, etc), all normal citation requirements must apply. It is a double standard, but there's a clearly demarcated line that could be observed/enforced, and if the spoilers end up being false it only ends up affecting the temporal accuracy of that particular spoiler page, and not the long-term accuracy of the page once aired. I would still prefer not seeing any anonymous sources in the regular article space, though, as the maintenance issues involved would potentially leave false spoiler information in place after the event occurs.
:Also, I'd like to see the above vote closed (since the context since it's opening has changed quite dramatically). I'd rather not change my vote, I'd vote that way again given the same information, but "re-voting" based on the new information seems a bit of the Monday-morning quarterbacking ("I'd a double bagged it.")--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:47, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

::Spoilers are already quarantined into the episode guide pages; quarantining anonymous spoilers somewhere else seems excessive to me. I think we just need to decide one way or another. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:55, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::I didn't realize that was the case. I think I was remembering character pages like [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Helena_Cain&oldid=23108 this] that had spoiler boxes, and it's hard to edit them without running into the spoilers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
::::I'm mistaken. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:02, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

Having read everything you guys said and listening to the last show, here's my thoughts:
I entirely agree with the three points about KR Peter said; he met our requests and was careful about saying "I guess" "that's what I think", etc., and he incorporated it into his interview smoothly (didn't stop in his tracks and say "everyone be warned this is just what I think, websites shouldn't etc etc etc) which was good for him, not affecting his interview drastically. I think that worked out well for everyone. Nextly, I am actually now quite possitive that '''he does indeed have some sort of spoiler source''', the exact nature of which is of course unknown, but still it is now clear to me that he isn't just basing all of his information on casting sides and public information, but has a source no one else does. The real problem, then, has changed: how do we address spoilers which are based on a reporter who has a ''reputation'' of providing on the whole accurate spoilers ''in the past'', and uses an ''anonymous source'' which nonetheless seems to be a "real" source?
:"Should they be allowed at all? If so, should we discriminate between different sources on the basis of reputation? If so, how should reputation be determined, and who should be responsible for determining it?"
This was an important set of questions Peter, and I think that a new subsection on our sources policy page should be openned up to discuss these questions raised in more detail. '''Further, I agree entirely with you and Joe's feelings that this vote here should be "wiped", singling out a single person would be inappropriate, that we should "let the matter drop and refocus the discussion on the nature of our sources."'''

KR's sources thus seem to ''generally'' be real and he's not just making things up, but that raises all sorts of questions; as said above, these sources tend to be based on early ideas or scripts and are subject to change even if the reports on them were truthfully saying what the production team ''thought'' they were going to do, or might be scenes that even get filmed, but ultimately deleted and possibly becoming deleted scenes that are in fact contradicted by scenes that appear in the final episode rendering them totally non-canonical; i.e. what if someone was on the set and saw the alternate cut of "Pegasus" where Boomer ''actually'' gets raped, then left the set and did not see that ''another'' take of this was filmed where she gets saved at the last minute?...this spoiler source would honestly report that they saw a scene where Boomer gets raped...however even though this scene was filmed, another scene was filmed which completely contradicted it and it is no longer real (as opposed to like, the deleted scenes such as when Roslin gets "Lest We Forget" from Billy in "33", which it appears CAN be thought of as more or less canonical and RDM said was only deleted for time reasons). So, the thing we really need to do is open '''another, more generic discussion on what to do about sources and spoilers'''.

My thoughts on the subject: Generally, we should keep spoiler information confined to news and season 3 pages; by it's very nature the season 3 page is right now filled with spoilers, and people going there are looking for them, and can see the spoiler sign on top. Also, *individual episode entries* for episodes that have not aired yet, such as "Occupation", are obviously going to contain spoilers and people go there to look for them, although even then *gigantic* spoilers should be in a highlighted spoiler-text box so you have to highlight ''specific'' plot information to see it. Once and a while there will be some exceptions where we ''can'' keep spoiler info on a character page, i.e. {{spoiltext|Number Three where Lucy Lawless says she'll be a character like God, and do this for a MAJOR 10 episode arc.}}

We should be very sparing about allowing spoiler info like this off of the upcoming season and news pages. ***Still, '''I think our current spoiler warning policy is more or less okay in turns of placement'''.

What we need to really focus on is tagging our sources.

{{spoiltext|I mean, Lucy Lawless said the above thing in ''an interview'' and thus it is okay to add to a page. However, KR's recent comments about what Starbuck is doing in various season 3 episodes should '''definately not be added to the Starbuck page until they are confirmed by production photos''', but still will appear on season 3, news, and season 3 episode pages. }}

Ultimately, I think we actually have to run KoenigRules' spoilers: Gateworld, Galaticastation, and most other Battlestar Galactica news sites all tend to run them within a few days. We'd be seen as less reliable about our info if someone could get better info from somewhere else. ***I think the best idea would be to '''run these annonymous source spoilers only *after* an official news site like Gateworld or Galacticastation has already run them''', like the day after they run them, we report that "Gateworld reported this story, it came from a radio interview which gave news from an anonymous source".

Sort of like the "Citation needed" tag, which appears in the article but as a little super-script? I think we need a new one of those which says "Information from an anonymous source, not confirmed" or something to that effect. Well those are just my early thoughts on the subject. Bottom line: ESSENTIALLY, KR does seem to have a real spoiler source, though he won't reveal it. We need to figure out how to handle anonymous sources like this. We should remove this vote as new information we've gotten has shed more light on the matter, and we should refocus this onto a more ''generic'' "who do we handle anonymous spoilers" discussion on our sources page. I agree with Farago and SteelViper. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:49, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:Maybe you should wrap the actual spoiler content in the above in spoiler tags. I hadn't read some of that yet (and try to avoid it).--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Merv writes: ''I think that a new subsection on our sources policy page should be openned up to discuss these questions raised in more detail.''
:The Citation Jihad ''is'' our sources policy page, and we're having that discussion right now. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:14, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

::I meant a new subheading. (I will find those spoiltexts SV...)--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:19, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:::If we allow a spolier to be listed like this it would be moot to what we are. This is not even offical. Spoliers with cast memebers are offical. We become something we are not supposed to be. If I reported annoymously that I heard BSG Wiki was closing and it was annoymous source, it could be anyone, however int his case, Joe is the only one. So a reported would ask joe is BSG closing, or joe would see it and he would look to see who spread that rumor because the fact is not true. Just put yourself in RDM shoes. What would he say to the production staff. Please do not leak spoliers. Actors are bound by the [[Wikipedia:SAG]] contracts in which they why can't reveal sources otherwise they can be seriously fined. They do comment on the show and what their characeter does, but not the spolt details itself. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:31, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::All spoilers should be sourced. If that source is anonymous, that should probably be specifically, explicitly noted, but I cannot see how it would hurt to include them if they are so marked. Each reader can then judge how much stock to put in an anonymous source individually, since it's a point on which reasonable people can differ. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 15:53, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::: If you don't mind spoiler's read the two reports. One is from The [[Season 3 (2006-07)]] page and the other is from the new discussion.

{{spoiltext|According to Ron D. Moore's podcast of the Captain's Hand, Apollo will continue to be the Commander of the Pegasus well into Season 3.}}
This goes totally against
{{spoiltext|

KR: It's not— I don't think you're going to have a Galactica spinoff

SO: Uh oh. Well, I mean, they could've done a spinoff with the Pegasus if they'd wanted to, they could've done some other things, but I mean even that as fan fiction—

KR: Did you say "Pegasus"?

SO: Uh oh.

KR: Did you say "Pegasus"? Episode 303.

SO: Uh oh.

KR: Pegasus is destroyed.

SO: Oh no, you're kidding me! Who's on it when it gets destroyed?

KR: Don't know. But it is sent— my source says it is sent on a collision course to a Cylon base ship so that the Galactica can get away.

}}
Goes totally against an offical spoiler. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:13, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:Possiblities: (1) Plans have changed since RDM made that podcast, (2) Plans have not changed, the producers feel that three episodes are enough to show Lee's ups and downs of command, (3) Keonigrules' source is flatly mistaken or (4) didn't get the details right (it's a Pegasus Viper that is sacrificed, or something like that). --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:58, 26 April 2006 (EST)

=== From Joe ===

Well, I've created {{tl|spoileranony}} with the following wording:

{{spoileranony}}

Basically, I feel that as long as we can cite a source for the rumor, we should report it as such. Care must be taken to ensure that we inform our readers that this information is rumor and speculation. Here are the criteria I'd prefer we use:

# As so long as it is reported on a valid news source (Gateworld, HNR, S2D), we can report it as well.
# We must take care to indicate that these are rumors. Therefore they may or may not be accurate. (Templates such as {{tl|spoileranony}} reflect this view.)
# We must make sure that we are not the primary source for these rumors -- we aren't a news and rumors site. We're a reference. We summarize and scrutinized what's been reported, nothing more, nothing less. (I guess I'm repeating point 1, but I don't think I can emphasize this enough.)

I think we may have to create a page specifically dealing with rumors, such as [[Battlestar Wiki:Rumor Policy]]. Thoughts?

So that's what I have to say on that subject... Unless anything else comes to mind. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:34, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Page takes a second to create... :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:41, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
::{{tl|Episode List}} - needs to be updated. I posted a suggestion to split up the three seasons because spoliers and title names should be inclduded. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:46, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree with the three points Joe has listed here. I'm unsure on precise implementation though but we'll be hammering that out for a while. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 16:50, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:First, let me address some of your points above:
:#What the heck is a valid news source? Anyone can start a blog and be a "valid news source". This goes back to the credibility/reputation problem.
:#If we do decide to permit anonymous spoilers, an ostentatious warning banner is the last thing we need. This is alread taken care of by the spoiler and spoiltext tags we already have. The anonymity of the source should simply be noted in the citation.
:I'm afraid I'm still against anonymous sources. If we report anonymous spoilers, we ''must'' take into account the reputation of the poster. Since we ''cannot'' do this in an objective and non-arbitrary manner, we therefore cannot report anonymous spoilers.
:Lastly, there is nothing that we would cover in a "Rumor" policy that we couldn't cover here. Let's not spread ourselves thin. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

: "What the heck is a valid news source?" A very good question indeed. In fact, you do raise many interesting points above and I believe we should consider very carefully whether or not we cite spoilers. I'm starting to reconsider that. Anyone else want to chime in? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:19, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:: I dislike spoilers and only read them because it's an effective necessity to edit here; they don't add anything that wouldn't be there after the episode anyway. My opinion on anonymous sources for them (under the assumption that spoilers in general will be cited) is above. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 20:43, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

Joe, I think it's time to wrap this thing up. Let's formally close the blacklist vote and come to a conclusion about our policy on anonymous sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:57, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

== The Rumor Vote ==

I am calling a vote on this issue; the '''blacklist vote is closed'''. Since it seems to be the consensus that we will not blacklist anyone, I am calling for a different vote, so as to make thing clear.

Here's the text of what we are voting on:

: Battlestar Wiki's primary goals do not include discerning which unofficial sources have valid information. Our primary goal is to report valid information in an encyclopedic medium. Due to this, we will not be citing rumors from any sources other than official channels (SCI-FI Channel, Ronald D. Moore, and current cast and crew). Any information from sources other than those in the list will be immediately removed from the wiki; actions which lead to the repeated reintroduction of said unofficial and unverifiable material will be dealt accordingly by an on-duty administrator.

Voting will end '''May 9, 2006 at 23:00 UTC'''.

=== Support ===

# [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:13, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
# [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:04, 2 May 2006 (CDT) Could not agree more.
# [[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:24, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
# [[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:52, 3 May 2006 (CDT)
# --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 00:53, 3 May 2006 (CDT) (If I'm understanding this right, we won't be ''reporting'' the rumors, let alone citing them?)
#*Well, that's my understanding Day, though I could be wrong. BTW, what if something like TVGuide gets word of such super-spoilers or from a different source entirely, then runs a story with them that has anonymous sources? I think that if a major publication runs it, the lid on such a spoiler would be blown so wide open that we can't contain it as its common knowledge. I mean they ran a story that Apollo would kiss Starbuck in "Home, Part I" a week before it happened, with a picture and everything. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:25, 3 May 2006 (CDT)
#**A picture would be pretty incontrovertible. I'm less inclined to take their word for it in the absence of corroborating evidence. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:39, 3 May 2006 (CDT)
#***Agreed. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 01:47, 3 May 2006 (CDT)
#**Even in that case, unless it was corroborated by RDM or someone close to the production, then we wouldn't quote it. It's safer that way anyway. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:20, 3 May 2006 (CDT)
# Absolutely! -- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 09:44, 3 May 2006 (CDT)
# [[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 11:44, 3 May 2006 (EDT)
# [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 11:48, 3 May 2006 (CDT) ditto
# [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 11:50, 3 May 2006 (CDT) This should make life easier, as it's a nice, sharp delineation.
# [[User:Geckomind|Geckomind]] 13:13, 3 May 2006 (CDT) BTW, am I right in assuming that the "Purple! Green!" at the top comes from the B5 Episode "Geometry Of Shadows"?
#: Yep. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:50, 4 May 2006 (CDT)
# [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:25, 3 May 2006 (CDT)
# [[User:Brecchie|Brecchie]] 21:05, 4 May 2006 (CDT)
# [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:15, 5 May 2006 (EST)
# [[User:Jasonbondshow|Jasonbondshow]] 01:18, 6 May 2006 (EST)

=== Oppose ===

# [[User:barce|barce]] -- Perhaps the list of official sources can be broadened by a bit? For example, if Newsweek does a piece on Battlestar Galactica and say Arthur C. Clark is on the set and comments on something he sees there, isn't that still a good, yet unofficial source? 06 May 2006, 16:40:55 PDT

=== Neutral ===