Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

2008-02-01T02:42:38Z

Baltarstar: /* Possible Cylon ploy */

== Promo Image ==

I took the image into photoshop (I do minor image tweaking at my job), did everything I could to enhance it, just for fun. And I'd like to make a grandiose speculation that the Five look, well, slightly mutilated...or mutated. Botched Cylon experiments, torutred and insane minds!!! I don't know, That one "fellow's" hand reaching to Three looks awefully stumpy...of course it could always be some foreshortening.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Yup, totally convinced they are mutilated and grotesque, their faces, albiet shrouded are just a little odd and produce strange shadow tones.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 11:17, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:It is also possible that the show is intentionally masquerading their faces to allow the show to cast anyone in these roles at a later time, rather than fixing the faces of the characters right away. In any case, any interpretations of these promo shots are too speculative to make a valid assessment. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:38, 3 January 2007 (CST)

We should get rid of the main picture - we don't know for sure that they are in fact the Final Five, they may be simply a hallucation on the part of D'eanna when she resurrects/is boxed.
Or perhaps the five temple priests who are not Cylons. Point is, we don't know --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:26, 10 January 2007 (CST)
:Writer's often portray canon information through a character, in this case D'Anna. That is the same vision she always has when she dies, we've already seen a part of the scene on "Hero", and it's what she's been seeing again and again. Her sketches and such are merely her representations of what she saw, this picture is what she actually saw. Anyways, even if you choose to not believe D'Anna, and even if you doubt the only logical explanation, I think David Eick confirmed that it's them she sees on a EW article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:53, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== ID ==

Looking at the high resolution picture, I can identify most of the actors in these robes. Whether they actually are the Final Five Cylons or whether this is just a dream sequence and they grabbed whoever was convenient is not clear. From the left to the right:

# Aaron Douglas, better known as Chief Tyrol. The stature and facial features are a perfect match.
# Tahmoh Penikett, better known as Helo. This isn't as certain, but the lower face and stature both match.
# Unidentified female
# Unidentified female
# The big, bald Asian pilot who's always in the rec room.

[[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:32, 9 January 2007 (CST)

No two cylons can have a child which makes Tahmoh Penikett wrong. Don't know about the others, though the "Chief" guy is certainly too short --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:21, 10 January 2007 (CST)

:Major kudos if you are correct, cause I cartainly can't see it myself :P -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:27, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::They're just stand-ins, they don't release promo pics at random, and they wouldn't reveal anyone in such a way when having a chance to do it on screen. But as said before, those faces are vague enough to be almost anyone. They might have similarities, but a lot of people in the world can have similar features without looking the same. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:32, 10 January 2007 (CST)

::The thing of it is, is; we're all going to see what we want in them untill we actually see them. I'm pretty sure I'm not right (above comment) and fairly sure when they did these Promo pics and ambiguous #3 "in the hinterlands of Cylon death land" dreams, that they wouldn't have cast definite actors...it's a pretty significant choice to make of who should play the roles...so, stick some people in robes and shrouds to stand in and any old person will do for the snippets, clips, dream scenes and teaser tastys. we won't know 'till we know--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:42, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:Personally I think the show would be smart to not put all of their eggs in one basket on this whole final five thing. At least one of the five should be someone we've never seen, one should be someone who is alive and in the fleet and at least one should be someone who was in the fleet that has been dead for a while. Making all of the five sleepers who are in the fleet or making them all dead characters or all new characters wouldn't be very cool. Making it a balance between the three would be nice. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 19 January 2007.

I hate to repeat what's been stated, but I think Philwelch is looking way too hard because I see no one - and I mean ''no one'' familar in that image. Not even a vague similarity. I'm certain they're just stand-ins, but I find it odd that they'd release an image that shows so much, but also expect us not to see a match when the five are revealed. You'd figure they'd put more effort in hiding the faces, just to cover the bases. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:43, 22 January 2007 (CST)

== Reason for Locking ==

I don't want the server to flood or 4k people trying to edit this page. Take your time and finsh everything else first. Unprotect this at Midnight. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:21, 21 January 2007 (CST)

== Interpretation question ==

After thinking about this, there are only two individuals that believe that what D'anna/Three has seen is actually images of the final five Cylons: herself, and Baltar. The Colonials scripture know that the Temple of Five was human-built, long before the Cylons existed, and was related to five priests who may have worshiped someone different from the Lords of Kobol. There's plenty of inference (with Kara Thrace, Leoben, [[Dodona Selloi]], and the Threes) that there is a connection between the Lords of Kobol and the Cylon God. My problem is that, while the notion that the final five Cylons has been established, there isn't information ''between'' the characters that verifies that what Three has seen are actual Cylon or human figures.

For that reason, I am going to rewrite this article with a level of neutrality that does not support only Three's belief since there is Colonial connections that exist. The final five represent five human priestly people (blessed, cursed or otherwise cited) or five Cylons (boxed, or related somehow to the origin of the new Cylon, which, after "Rapture," is not clear-cut. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:Well....RDM called them "The Final Five" in his podcast...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 10:03, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::The podcast doesn't elaborate on their nature, and Ron has twisted the truth before to keep the storyline a mystery until aired. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:06, 27 January 2007 (CST)

==Three wasn't the Only One==
I think we should also mention that Number Three wasn't the only Cylon to believe they were the Final Five. The Cavils believed it well enough to try to shoot her and even box her. So I think we should at least mention that they too believed Three was seeing the Final Five, enough to essentially eliminate 1/3 of their known female population. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:00, 27 January 2007 (CST)

The light that shines down as the Nova goes is real, and D'anna starts bleeding and dies for no other apparent reason. If it's an illusion in her mind, these things don't match.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 21:22, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:It didn't seem like an illusion, but rather a simple isolate hologram, which wouldn't be surprising since that's the kind of tech these things ususally have in them. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:35, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::The podcast supports the assumption that Three saw the actual Final Five, although I don't think it's explicitly stated. As for the device in the temple, there's quite a few possible explanations and I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer about which one is correct. The device could've triggered both Three's death and the visions directly, the device could've triggered Three's death, resulting in a vision just like her previous deaths did or the device could've triggered the visions, resulting in Three's death due to some hypothetical built-in failsafe in Three. Each of those three possibilities also has a number of explanations (for example, if the device caused the visions, it may have been a technological substitute for [[chamalla]], it may have been designed to unlock repressed memories or in may have been programmed with the images of the Final Five at any time in the past 4000 years). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:17, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::: It seems that [[projection]] would be a likely technology behind a vision seen only by here. Why a 4,000 year old temple would be able to do that is nor more a mystery than why it would be able to insert a vision any other way. Further reflection shows this image to possibly be different from the image in the Temple of Athena, which was more holodeck like, and seen by all.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:47, 2 February 2007 (CST)

==Warning - possibly big spoiler below==
I was watching Final Five photo, when I noticed face similarity to one of main characters face. I made some photo mainpulating, and results is below.

[http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9007/finalfivespoilerzq0.png] <-- POSSIBLE HEAVY SPOILER

It gives me around 60-70% sure, that this char is one of Final Five. Yet there are two other things - first - it's possible, that director didn't thought of that, and put this actor there to "fill the gap".

Second - as I've searched through characteristic of this one, I haven't even found slight connections to Cylon, and it would mess with storyline pretty badly.

What do you think about that? --[[User:XLII|XLII]] 16:41, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Again, don't take that picture too literally. It did not actually appear in the episode after all, and they chose not to show the faces in detail at the end. We don't know if it was actually shot that way at all and just cut, or if they are just stand-ins for a test shot or something. In any case, since we don't see the five in the episode, we can't draw any conclusions --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:58, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Also remember how much Leoben likes mixing truth and lies... "Adama is a Cylon." [[User:Wynler|Wynler]] 11:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
::XLII your idea was a good one, but there's a flaw in your comparison. As you darken the image of the actor, that face overtakes the face of the Final Five. The jawlines match up, which makes it look like it's the same person, but watch the chin and the upper lip (and the 5 o'clock shadow) in pics 1&2 and 4&5. They're different. --[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 19:44, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Even if you forget for a moment that the people in the promo picture are just stand-ins Lee Adama is most defintly '''not''' a Cylon anyway we already worked that out. Because he is the son of someone else who is most definitly not a cylon and the Cylons are not copies of already existing people. See [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]] and [[Characters eliminated from suspicion]] --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::::Not to mention that Lee has his fat makeup on there. Even if the images matched up, it wouldn't be a true likeness of Lee/Jamie Bamber.--[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 18:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)

What if the final five aren't cylons at all, but in fact are part of the priesthood. The whole question "what defines a Cylon" opened by the writers had me thinking... the final five aren't "final" they are the "first" five. They are neither Cylon, nor human and possibly are some related faction to the 13th tribe whom were left behind to fulfull and manipulate things behind the scenes. I do not like the idea of certain main characters being cylons and I believe that this will be the only way to mitigate that unplesant "revelation". I've been pushing hard on the crossroads' talk pages that the final five aren't necessarily cylons and that Tigh certainly is not. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 22:23, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:I agree with the idea that they are NOT Cylons but for different reasons. The first problem is the aging/immortality issue since it has been established that the current batch of cylons will live forever (as long as they are not boxed and are in range of a Ressurection Ship or the Cylon Homeworld). My thought is that the main characters who think they are cylons are NOT but rather descendants of the one or more copies of one or more of the models of the Final Five (thus fufulling RDM's promise of "bluring the line between Human and Cylon"). But we will soon see... [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 22:30, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Agreed, I actually was trying to clarify that. I think the final five are actually priests, five priests who continue the tradition of prophecies. Remember, Tyrol's father was a priest AND his mom was an Oracle. HE found the Eye. And finally, and this bugs me, people seem to ignore or overlook the fact that the Cylon Biers had stepped into the Eye's chamber when it was meant for a HUMAN to. SHE saw the final five and had explained that she had made a mistake and apologized. Now... I assume those five priests are the "final five" so-called cylons. But why am I the only person who gets that the other seven models do not KNOW who or WHAT the final five truly are? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 23:02, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

I'd actually go with the idea that they are not the FINAL Five, but the FIRST Five. I think the Enemy Seven are the Children of the Cylon group. They don't know about the first 5 also, they don't know who programmed them.--[[User:James968|James968]] 04:51, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

== D'Anna's Apology ==

Right now this article lists Saul Tigh as being the leading suspect of who D'Anna saw, but I'm not sure if this information should really be included; it's complete speculation on one hand, and on the other... I'm not sure that it really holds merit. Certainly Tigh has endured the most of all the final five at the hands of the Cylon, but D'Anna never really had much involvement with him; on the other hand, she attacked and nearly killed Anders in Downloaded. He would seem to me a more likely suspect of who she saw and felt compelled to apologize to. At the very least, my speculation is no more off bat then the theory that it's Tigh, and that really calls for some change here. [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 03:59, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

:I think she's talking to Anders, as they have had a [[Downloaded|face-to-face conflict with eachother before]]. She was pretty abusive to him in that episode, and if she saw that he wasn't Human, but a member of the [[Final Five]], she would probably be pretty apologetic....[[User:Zach dax|Zach dax]] 23:51, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::So much to apologize for. Tigh's eye (though that seemed a Cavil project). Putting Tyrol's wife on a death list. Beating up Anders. Outside, her centurions are shooting at Anders and Tyrol, and shot and seriously injured Anders' wife. Only Foster brings nothing to mind. However, I don't think it was any of them, and while we can list reasons like the ones I cite, the line "I had no idea" suggests it is somebody bigger. Because she certainly would have had an idea that the F5 were infiltrating the fleet, where else would they be, after all? But no, we can't list who the apology is to quite yet, and since she started a war that killed everybody's families and friends, it's hard to find somebody she could not apologize to.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

== D'Anna's sketches ==
The two on the right are, in retrospect, clearly Tigh and Anders. I'm not sure about the other ones. The one on the far left is vague enough to be anyone with long hair, or anyone with short hair wearing a hood, and the one in the middle is vague enough to be any woman with a slim face, narrow jawline and straight, shoulder length or longer hair. The one to the near left depicts someone with dark hair and a widow's peak, however no major character other than [[Number Five]] meets those criteria, however they are rough sketches based on blurry memories, so it could be a distorted portrait of Tyrol, Baltar or Roslin. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:12, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:I dunno, but SkyOne HD already aired this episode, so if anyone has a higher resolution cap of the sketches then it would greatly help the article I think, if at least visually. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

== Ironies and references ==

The revelation of the identities Fantastic Four (as I like to call them) brought up some interesting ironies. I thought I'd list them here for entertainment purposes, along with other early references to their Cylonness:
* On several occasions throughout the show, [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] plays with the idea of committing suicide. Not only is this considered a mortal sin by the Significant Seven, it also won't solve his problems, as he'll just be resurrected.
* In "[[33]]", Tigh gives [[William Adama|Adama]] his 10 minutes rest, because Adama is more tired. Interestingly, [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] also suffered less from the sleep-depriving conditions than anyone else.
* In "[[Litmus]]", [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] is interrogated for conspiracy with a Cylon.
* In the episodes "[[Scattered]]" through "[[The Farm]]", a Cylon has been in command of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]].
* In "[[Fragged]]", Tyrol leads an attack on five Cylon [[Centurion]]s
* [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] has been [[Caprica Resistance|fighting the Significant Seven]] ever since the [[Fall of the Colonies]].
** When Anders' group ambushes [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] and [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], Anders assumes they are Cylons, while he's a Cylon himself.
* In "[[Resistance]]", Tigh accuses Tyrol of being a Cylon. Not only is Tigh right, he is also a Cylon himself.
* After his release, Tyrol talks about how he saw [[Sharon Valerii]] slowly realizing her Cylon identity, not knowing the same will happen to him (although his realization is much faster).
* In "[[Home, Part II]]", Adama orders Tyrol to guard fellow Cylon [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Tom Zarek|Zarek]] and Helo.
* In "[[Final Cut]]", [[Number Three|D'Anna Biers]] tries to implicate Tigh in the [[Gideon]] incident, not knowing he's a Cylon just like her.
* In "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Tyrol builds a stealth craft that successfully avoids Cylon DRADIS.
* In "[[The Captain's Hand]]", [[Tory Foster|Tory]] is very closely involved in the plot to hide [[Hera]], who is actively searched for by the Seven and connected to the [[final five]] on some occasions.
* In "[[Downloaded]]", a Three threatens to kill Anders, not knowing he's a Cylon as well.
* In "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]", Tyrol is the first to identify [[Cavil]] as a Cylon.
* Tigh, Tyrol and Anders were the three leading figures of the [[New Caprica Resistance]].
** They were also members of [[The Circle]] that [[Collaborators|executed]] collaborators after the Second Exodus.
** Tory also helped the resistance by organizing evacuation exercises disguised as fire drills.
* In "[[Hero]]", Tigh is the one to realize Bulldog was manipulated by the Cylons to kill Adama.
* In "[[Rapture]]", when Three finds the Temple in order to see the final five, two of them (Tyrol and Anders) are just outside (credit to someone else on this Wiki).
* In "[[A Day in the Life]]", Tyrol suffers far less from the explosive decompression than [[Cally Tyrol|Cally]] does.
* In "[[Dirty Hands]]", Tory only suffers a minor injury when a [[Raptor]] crashes into ''[[Colonial One]]'' close to her.
* In the same episode, Tyrol points out to [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] that choice sets them apart from the Cylons.
* The irony of ironies occurs in "[[Crossroads, Part II]]": a Cylon (Tigh) orders three fellow Cylons (Anders, Tory and Tyrol) to help defend the ship from attacking Cylons.
:Great list. I noted the temple because this is around the first point that these are deliberate ironies. RDM has admitted he didn't pick who would be the final 5 until during this season, so the ironies prior to the exodus are probably unintentional. (Also, just like rain on your wedding day, not all these are ironies :-) For example, Tyrol's decompression is much more clearly a plain-old clue, it was in his clue list. We don't know if the F5 were picked during [[Collaborators]] but that is also an interesting irony if they were.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:00, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
::I know they're not all ironies (that's why this section is titled "Ironies ''and references''"), and they can't all have been intentional. I just suddenly realized the one in "Resistance" (still one of my favorites in this list), and built the rest of the list around it. It's actually funny to see how many of these ironies/references can be found in the first two seasons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

=="What about Ellen?"==
I think the line can be interpreted in ways other than how it was interpreted in this page. I for one thought he was more likely questioning whether she (along with all the other things he mentioned) were real. After all, he had just learned he was a Cylon, which meant something about his life was different.

This is what I thought anywyas, and it makes a little more sense to me. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 04:09, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

:Yeah, we know that Ellen Tigh wasn't a false memory, but Saul Tigh has no way of knowing which parts of his life are false memories or some programmed delusion. I still think it's more likely that he was revisiting his regrets about her death or considering the possibility that Ellen may be a Cylon. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:43, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
::Was mostly just documenting the fact that they don't know yet about their being special Cylons, as revealed in the Podcast. I have edited the text to be more a reporting of facts than a speculation of his motives.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 16:22, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Perfect! Thanks :) .--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:59, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

::I believe [[Ellen Tigh]] is a [[Cylon]]. While there is evidence she has a sister in [[Valley of Darkness]], she fits being a Cylon and she is a female that can fit the profile. [[Number Three]] may have apoligized for her being killed by Tigh.--[[User:CoreyDanian|CoreyDanian]] 20.19, 2 July 2007

== Proper Noun or not? ==

I think we need some kind of standard here. Either it's "Final Five" or "Final five", but not both. Same with "Significant Seven". Personally I could go either way, but I think most people tend to capitalize the numbers. That would be easier then. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:I'd go with Final Five. Shane can probably bot-edit once we've reached consensus on the capitalization. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 16:02, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::I agree, since they are sometimes referred only as "The Five" I think the second should be capitalized as well. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:17, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Yup, Final Five. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:23, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::::For consistency's sake, OK. Same for "Significant Seven" (although that is a production term and not an aired canonical one). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:47, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

== Possible Repercussions Against the Seven ==

Once the fourth seasons of Galactica begins, I, for one, would be thrilled to see what sort of consequences would befall the Cavil models for their actions against Saul; particularly their torturing him mentally and physically.

This, of course, would be provided that whatever repressed memories/programming within them, that is Saul and the other three of five remaining, does not altogether supress the personalities we are familiar with.

And what of Sam regarding the Conoy models' mental torture of Starbuck on New Caprica? Will retribution or amnesty befall Conoy if such a plot or subplot were contemplated by the producers?

I could only imagine how Cally and Kara would react to discovering their spouses are two of the Final Five. I even wonder moreso how Bill (Admiral Adama) will react toward Saul's true race.

Granted, those last two paragraphs had little to do with the possible retribution or amnesty toward the known seven at the hands of Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders; but they are still possibilities worth contemplating.
- {{unsigned|Murrdawg 316}}
:Yeah, the Fantastic Four are in an awkward position. My personal prediction is that the Colonials will meet a Final Five fleet, sending a Tigh copy as a liaison (or a Tyrol/Anders/Tori copy for that matter). That Final Five fleet could appear pretty early: it could be the fleet that jumped into the Ionian System at the end of "[[Crossroads, Part II]]", or they could jump in and defend the Colonials. And we almost forgot to mention Starbuck: she'll have some explaining to do as well. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:59, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

== Further Flipping of the original Battlestar Galactica's Script ==

Okay, seeing as such changes in the redefined and more immensely popular version of Battlestar Galactica have occurred as (1) gender reversals of the original Boomer, Starbuck, Cain, and -- if I am not mistaken -- Number Six, (2) making Cain superior in rank to the elder Adama, and (3) making the Cylons self-aware AND humanoid right out of the gate. Wouldn't it also be logical to give Earth the possible advantage of not only being as advanced if not moreso than the Twelve Colonies of Kobol AND also made both peaceful and military resolutions to problems the Colonials had to learn the hard way with the Cylons where the creation of self-aware, replicated humanoids or androids of their own are concerned?

It would be fascinating to hope that Earth, like and yet unlike the Colonies, not only created artificial life, but acknowledged their sentience and right to exist as an equal and independent race either beside or separate from humans; thus being added contributors to the resolution of the Cylon/Colonial conflict as the series meets its eventual end.

Please let me know what you think.

--[[User:Murrdawg 316|Murrdawg 316]] 05:12, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

:Based on the episode events, there is some truth in your fiction. Ron uses the Original Series as a template, but has obviously grown away from most of the storylines that appeared there (and seriously "warps" what he does use). There is one premise that does permeate throughout the Re-imagined Series, whether the Cylons or humanity itself harass the Fleet: "We have seen the enemy, and they are us." Some [[Sacred Scrolls|elements of return and origin]] (a serious plotline of the show) have bigger complications, not only with [[Hera Agathon]] or the Five, but the [[The Destiny|mysterious destiny and return of Kara Thrace]] and the prophecies and involvement of the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Lords of Kobol]]. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:00, 29 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contrib Skillz]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|Edit Skillz]])

:There are clues that Earth did not have a peaceful creation of its own AIs. The writings of Pythia who "wrote of the exile and rebirth of the human race" 3,600 years BCH are ambiguous, because they are written in the past tense (implying such an exodus in her past) but also treated as prophecies by the colonials for their future. There is not supposed to be any time travel in this show, but there is definitely a theme of repeated cycles of history. However, RDM refuses to answer questions about what Earth is like, though he has worked it out in his internal notes. All we actually have confirmed about Earth (as opposed to learn from colonial mythology) is that whoever took Starbuck brought her there, that its night sky was displayed in the [[Tomb of Athena]] and that it's real and not too far from the [[Ionian nebula]] on a Galactic scale.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:44, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

== S3 cliffhanger tag ==

Is the presence of this tag still justified (now that the Four Revealed section has been added)? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:13, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:It would be cool to just edit it to "events are under scrutiny...". We no longer need to warn people about edit conflicts and such though. But we could also strike it entirely. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
::From my point of view, the tag used to mean the article was no longer correct and/or needed to be cleaned up in light of the [[Crossroads, Part II]] events. That issue has now been resolved. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 08:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:::The tag (which I created) was primarily to stem the crisis of edit-conflicts, fanwanking, and the like, especially given how the revelations made everything we know almost wrong. It can be removed if the article is now up to date. However, we need to ensure that the [[Humanoid Cylon]] article is noted and how the Final Five contrast and compare, specifically noting how "fundamentally different" they are. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:51, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

== Mevenstar's edit ==

Moved from the article. Please discuss here:

: #1 The Jealous God, #2 Cylon God and #3 One Whose Name cannot be spoken all hint toward a RDM incarnation of Iblis, but as no metaphysical being has been shown yet to exist, nor any AI before the cylons introduced, it seems feasible each of these three descriptions may depict more than one Kobol Lord or the cylon god. There are judeo christian montehists that do not believe in speaking the name of their god Jahovah. The Jealous God can be a lucifer or hades like charcter that has set himself up as the Cylon God, The One whose name cannot be spoken can be a kobol lord that has assumed a Johavah like role in exile with the the thirteenth tribe, and the remaining Kobol Lords are in some way connected to the colonials as pantheon similar in form to Mt. Olympus. They may be real or imagined, metaphysical or AI...and all three groups, colonials, 13th tribe and cylons could be in effect worshipping the same being with radically different interpretaions as to the nature of that being, just like muslims, christains and jews.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 10:27, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

== Resurrection and multiple copies ==
There's no conclusive evidence supporting multiple copies or resurrection for the Final Five, but there's no conclusive evidence refuting the possibility either. Is there an interview in which it's implied that they cannot resurrect or don't have additional copies? If not, I would prefer a more neutral statement about the lack of evidence either way. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:23, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
:Sometime in season 3([[Escape Velocity]]) is rumored that after the Significant Seven become aware that the Final Five(well, at least four) reside in the fleet, they propose to cease attacking them as it is unknown if these Cylons have the ability to resurrect. If they were to die, no where in the Colonial Fleet or Cylon Fleet can the Five, if even, resurrect... Of course, no one knows for sure. -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 22:04, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
::Thanks for pointing it out, I'll add a cite and tweak the note. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:58, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
:::Great! :-) -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 01:43, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

== Possible Cylon ploy ==

----
The whole notion of the final five being based on the two sketches may have more weight than the musical programming but a still a far cry from being reliable. I belive the "fantasitc four" or the "quartet" (hey it's music that drives them) were manipulated by some Cylon psychic or psychological tampering. I mean how is it that now the Cylons are able to follow Galactica? And how then does the non-ressurrectable final 5 come perilously close to being killed (Tyrol about 5 times), Anders (who knows how many times), Tigh (Abused and tortured by the other cylons)...

No I think the Cylons when they captured these at some point had implanted some tracking beacons on them. When Tigh thought the music was coming from the ship he was close, he probably thought there was a tracking device.

I admit I can't find a good explanation for the sketches. But 2 out of 4 of them are recognizeable. And because she was a CYLON, she was not meant to see the true faces of the final 5, maybe what she saw was a distortion and false information.

--[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:41, 31 January 2008 (CST)

Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

2008-02-01T02:41:25Z

Baltarstar: New section: Possible Cylon ploy

== Promo Image ==

I took the image into photoshop (I do minor image tweaking at my job), did everything I could to enhance it, just for fun. And I'd like to make a grandiose speculation that the Five look, well, slightly mutilated...or mutated. Botched Cylon experiments, torutred and insane minds!!! I don't know, That one "fellow's" hand reaching to Three looks awefully stumpy...of course it could always be some foreshortening.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Yup, totally convinced they are mutilated and grotesque, their faces, albiet shrouded are just a little odd and produce strange shadow tones.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 11:17, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:It is also possible that the show is intentionally masquerading their faces to allow the show to cast anyone in these roles at a later time, rather than fixing the faces of the characters right away. In any case, any interpretations of these promo shots are too speculative to make a valid assessment. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:38, 3 January 2007 (CST)

We should get rid of the main picture - we don't know for sure that they are in fact the Final Five, they may be simply a hallucation on the part of D'eanna when she resurrects/is boxed.
Or perhaps the five temple priests who are not Cylons. Point is, we don't know --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:26, 10 January 2007 (CST)
:Writer's often portray canon information through a character, in this case D'Anna. That is the same vision she always has when she dies, we've already seen a part of the scene on "Hero", and it's what she's been seeing again and again. Her sketches and such are merely her representations of what she saw, this picture is what she actually saw. Anyways, even if you choose to not believe D'Anna, and even if you doubt the only logical explanation, I think David Eick confirmed that it's them she sees on a EW article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:53, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== ID ==

Looking at the high resolution picture, I can identify most of the actors in these robes. Whether they actually are the Final Five Cylons or whether this is just a dream sequence and they grabbed whoever was convenient is not clear. From the left to the right:

# Aaron Douglas, better known as Chief Tyrol. The stature and facial features are a perfect match.
# Tahmoh Penikett, better known as Helo. This isn't as certain, but the lower face and stature both match.
# Unidentified female
# Unidentified female
# The big, bald Asian pilot who's always in the rec room.

[[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:32, 9 January 2007 (CST)

No two cylons can have a child which makes Tahmoh Penikett wrong. Don't know about the others, though the "Chief" guy is certainly too short --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:21, 10 January 2007 (CST)

:Major kudos if you are correct, cause I cartainly can't see it myself :P -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:27, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::They're just stand-ins, they don't release promo pics at random, and they wouldn't reveal anyone in such a way when having a chance to do it on screen. But as said before, those faces are vague enough to be almost anyone. They might have similarities, but a lot of people in the world can have similar features without looking the same. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:32, 10 January 2007 (CST)

::The thing of it is, is; we're all going to see what we want in them untill we actually see them. I'm pretty sure I'm not right (above comment) and fairly sure when they did these Promo pics and ambiguous #3 "in the hinterlands of Cylon death land" dreams, that they wouldn't have cast definite actors...it's a pretty significant choice to make of who should play the roles...so, stick some people in robes and shrouds to stand in and any old person will do for the snippets, clips, dream scenes and teaser tastys. we won't know 'till we know--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:42, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:Personally I think the show would be smart to not put all of their eggs in one basket on this whole final five thing. At least one of the five should be someone we've never seen, one should be someone who is alive and in the fleet and at least one should be someone who was in the fleet that has been dead for a while. Making all of the five sleepers who are in the fleet or making them all dead characters or all new characters wouldn't be very cool. Making it a balance between the three would be nice. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 19 January 2007.

I hate to repeat what's been stated, but I think Philwelch is looking way too hard because I see no one - and I mean ''no one'' familar in that image. Not even a vague similarity. I'm certain they're just stand-ins, but I find it odd that they'd release an image that shows so much, but also expect us not to see a match when the five are revealed. You'd figure they'd put more effort in hiding the faces, just to cover the bases. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:43, 22 January 2007 (CST)

== Reason for Locking ==

I don't want the server to flood or 4k people trying to edit this page. Take your time and finsh everything else first. Unprotect this at Midnight. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:21, 21 January 2007 (CST)

== Interpretation question ==

After thinking about this, there are only two individuals that believe that what D'anna/Three has seen is actually images of the final five Cylons: herself, and Baltar. The Colonials scripture know that the Temple of Five was human-built, long before the Cylons existed, and was related to five priests who may have worshiped someone different from the Lords of Kobol. There's plenty of inference (with Kara Thrace, Leoben, [[Dodona Selloi]], and the Threes) that there is a connection between the Lords of Kobol and the Cylon God. My problem is that, while the notion that the final five Cylons has been established, there isn't information ''between'' the characters that verifies that what Three has seen are actual Cylon or human figures.

For that reason, I am going to rewrite this article with a level of neutrality that does not support only Three's belief since there is Colonial connections that exist. The final five represent five human priestly people (blessed, cursed or otherwise cited) or five Cylons (boxed, or related somehow to the origin of the new Cylon, which, after "Rapture," is not clear-cut. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:Well....RDM called them "The Final Five" in his podcast...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 10:03, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::The podcast doesn't elaborate on their nature, and Ron has twisted the truth before to keep the storyline a mystery until aired. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:06, 27 January 2007 (CST)

==Three wasn't the Only One==
I think we should also mention that Number Three wasn't the only Cylon to believe they were the Final Five. The Cavils believed it well enough to try to shoot her and even box her. So I think we should at least mention that they too believed Three was seeing the Final Five, enough to essentially eliminate 1/3 of their known female population. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:00, 27 January 2007 (CST)

The light that shines down as the Nova goes is real, and D'anna starts bleeding and dies for no other apparent reason. If it's an illusion in her mind, these things don't match.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 21:22, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:It didn't seem like an illusion, but rather a simple isolate hologram, which wouldn't be surprising since that's the kind of tech these things ususally have in them. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:35, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::The podcast supports the assumption that Three saw the actual Final Five, although I don't think it's explicitly stated. As for the device in the temple, there's quite a few possible explanations and I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer about which one is correct. The device could've triggered both Three's death and the visions directly, the device could've triggered Three's death, resulting in a vision just like her previous deaths did or the device could've triggered the visions, resulting in Three's death due to some hypothetical built-in failsafe in Three. Each of those three possibilities also has a number of explanations (for example, if the device caused the visions, it may have been a technological substitute for [[chamalla]], it may have been designed to unlock repressed memories or in may have been programmed with the images of the Final Five at any time in the past 4000 years). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:17, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::: It seems that [[projection]] would be a likely technology behind a vision seen only by here. Why a 4,000 year old temple would be able to do that is nor more a mystery than why it would be able to insert a vision any other way. Further reflection shows this image to possibly be different from the image in the Temple of Athena, which was more holodeck like, and seen by all.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:47, 2 February 2007 (CST)

==Warning - possibly big spoiler below==
I was watching Final Five photo, when I noticed face similarity to one of main characters face. I made some photo mainpulating, and results is below.

[http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9007/finalfivespoilerzq0.png] <-- POSSIBLE HEAVY SPOILER

It gives me around 60-70% sure, that this char is one of Final Five. Yet there are two other things - first - it's possible, that director didn't thought of that, and put this actor there to "fill the gap".

Second - as I've searched through characteristic of this one, I haven't even found slight connections to Cylon, and it would mess with storyline pretty badly.

What do you think about that? --[[User:XLII|XLII]] 16:41, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Again, don't take that picture too literally. It did not actually appear in the episode after all, and they chose not to show the faces in detail at the end. We don't know if it was actually shot that way at all and just cut, or if they are just stand-ins for a test shot or something. In any case, since we don't see the five in the episode, we can't draw any conclusions --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:58, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Also remember how much Leoben likes mixing truth and lies... "Adama is a Cylon." [[User:Wynler|Wynler]] 11:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
::XLII your idea was a good one, but there's a flaw in your comparison. As you darken the image of the actor, that face overtakes the face of the Final Five. The jawlines match up, which makes it look like it's the same person, but watch the chin and the upper lip (and the 5 o'clock shadow) in pics 1&2 and 4&5. They're different. --[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 19:44, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Even if you forget for a moment that the people in the promo picture are just stand-ins Lee Adama is most defintly '''not''' a Cylon anyway we already worked that out. Because he is the son of someone else who is most definitly not a cylon and the Cylons are not copies of already existing people. See [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]] and [[Characters eliminated from suspicion]] --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::::Not to mention that Lee has his fat makeup on there. Even if the images matched up, it wouldn't be a true likeness of Lee/Jamie Bamber.--[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 18:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)

What if the final five aren't cylons at all, but in fact are part of the priesthood. The whole question "what defines a Cylon" opened by the writers had me thinking... the final five aren't "final" they are the "first" five. They are neither Cylon, nor human and possibly are some related faction to the 13th tribe whom were left behind to fulfull and manipulate things behind the scenes. I do not like the idea of certain main characters being cylons and I believe that this will be the only way to mitigate that unplesant "revelation". I've been pushing hard on the crossroads' talk pages that the final five aren't necessarily cylons and that Tigh certainly is not. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 22:23, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:I agree with the idea that they are NOT Cylons but for different reasons. The first problem is the aging/immortality issue since it has been established that the current batch of cylons will live forever (as long as they are not boxed and are in range of a Ressurection Ship or the Cylon Homeworld). My thought is that the main characters who think they are cylons are NOT but rather descendants of the one or more copies of one or more of the models of the Final Five (thus fufulling RDM's promise of "bluring the line between Human and Cylon"). But we will soon see... [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 22:30, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Agreed, I actually was trying to clarify that. I think the final five are actually priests, five priests who continue the tradition of prophecies. Remember, Tyrol's father was a priest AND his mom was an Oracle. HE found the Eye. And finally, and this bugs me, people seem to ignore or overlook the fact that the Cylon Biers had stepped into the Eye's chamber when it was meant for a HUMAN to. SHE saw the final five and had explained that she had made a mistake and apologized. Now... I assume those five priests are the "final five" so-called cylons. But why am I the only person who gets that the other seven models do not KNOW who or WHAT the final five truly are? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 23:02, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

I'd actually go with the idea that they are not the FINAL Five, but the FIRST Five. I think the Enemy Seven are the Children of the Cylon group. They don't know about the first 5 also, they don't know who programmed them.--[[User:James968|James968]] 04:51, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

== D'Anna's Apology ==

Right now this article lists Saul Tigh as being the leading suspect of who D'Anna saw, but I'm not sure if this information should really be included; it's complete speculation on one hand, and on the other... I'm not sure that it really holds merit. Certainly Tigh has endured the most of all the final five at the hands of the Cylon, but D'Anna never really had much involvement with him; on the other hand, she attacked and nearly killed Anders in Downloaded. He would seem to me a more likely suspect of who she saw and felt compelled to apologize to. At the very least, my speculation is no more off bat then the theory that it's Tigh, and that really calls for some change here. [[User:ColonelKevin|ColonelKevin]] 03:59, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

:I think she's talking to Anders, as they have had a [[Downloaded|face-to-face conflict with eachother before]]. She was pretty abusive to him in that episode, and if she saw that he wasn't Human, but a member of the [[Final Five]], she would probably be pretty apologetic....[[User:Zach dax|Zach dax]] 23:51, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::So much to apologize for. Tigh's eye (though that seemed a Cavil project). Putting Tyrol's wife on a death list. Beating up Anders. Outside, her centurions are shooting at Anders and Tyrol, and shot and seriously injured Anders' wife. Only Foster brings nothing to mind. However, I don't think it was any of them, and while we can list reasons like the ones I cite, the line "I had no idea" suggests it is somebody bigger. Because she certainly would have had an idea that the F5 were infiltrating the fleet, where else would they be, after all? But no, we can't list who the apology is to quite yet, and since she started a war that killed everybody's families and friends, it's hard to find somebody she could not apologize to.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 03:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

== D'Anna's sketches ==
The two on the right are, in retrospect, clearly Tigh and Anders. I'm not sure about the other ones. The one on the far left is vague enough to be anyone with long hair, or anyone with short hair wearing a hood, and the one in the middle is vague enough to be any woman with a slim face, narrow jawline and straight, shoulder length or longer hair. The one to the near left depicts someone with dark hair and a widow's peak, however no major character other than [[Number Five]] meets those criteria, however they are rough sketches based on blurry memories, so it could be a distorted portrait of Tyrol, Baltar or Roslin. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 22:12, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:I dunno, but SkyOne HD already aired this episode, so if anyone has a higher resolution cap of the sketches then it would greatly help the article I think, if at least visually. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

== Ironies and references ==

The revelation of the identities Fantastic Four (as I like to call them) brought up some interesting ironies. I thought I'd list them here for entertainment purposes, along with other early references to their Cylonness:
* On several occasions throughout the show, [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] plays with the idea of committing suicide. Not only is this considered a mortal sin by the Significant Seven, it also won't solve his problems, as he'll just be resurrected.
* In "[[33]]", Tigh gives [[William Adama|Adama]] his 10 minutes rest, because Adama is more tired. Interestingly, [[Sharon Valerii|Boomer]] also suffered less from the sleep-depriving conditions than anyone else.
* In "[[Litmus]]", [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] is interrogated for conspiracy with a Cylon.
* In the episodes "[[Scattered]]" through "[[The Farm]]", a Cylon has been in command of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]].
* In "[[Fragged]]", Tyrol leads an attack on five Cylon [[Centurion]]s
* [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] has been [[Caprica Resistance|fighting the Significant Seven]] ever since the [[Fall of the Colonies]].
** When Anders' group ambushes [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] and [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], Anders assumes they are Cylons, while he's a Cylon himself.
* In "[[Resistance]]", Tigh accuses Tyrol of being a Cylon. Not only is Tigh right, he is also a Cylon himself.
* After his release, Tyrol talks about how he saw [[Sharon Valerii]] slowly realizing her Cylon identity, not knowing the same will happen to him (although his realization is much faster).
* In "[[Home, Part II]]", Adama orders Tyrol to guard fellow Cylon [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]], [[Tom Zarek|Zarek]] and Helo.
* In "[[Final Cut]]", [[Number Three|D'Anna Biers]] tries to implicate Tigh in the [[Gideon]] incident, not knowing he's a Cylon just like her.
* In "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", Tyrol builds a stealth craft that successfully avoids Cylon DRADIS.
* In "[[The Captain's Hand]]", [[Tory Foster|Tory]] is very closely involved in the plot to hide [[Hera]], who is actively searched for by the Seven and connected to the [[final five]] on some occasions.
* In "[[Downloaded]]", a Three threatens to kill Anders, not knowing he's a Cylon as well.
* In "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]", Tyrol is the first to identify [[Cavil]] as a Cylon.
* Tigh, Tyrol and Anders were the three leading figures of the [[New Caprica Resistance]].
** They were also members of [[The Circle]] that [[Collaborators|executed]] collaborators after the Second Exodus.
** Tory also helped the resistance by organizing evacuation exercises disguised as fire drills.
* In "[[Hero]]", Tigh is the one to realize Bulldog was manipulated by the Cylons to kill Adama.
* In "[[Rapture]]", when Three finds the Temple in order to see the final five, two of them (Tyrol and Anders) are just outside (credit to someone else on this Wiki).
* In "[[A Day in the Life]]", Tyrol suffers far less from the explosive decompression than [[Cally Tyrol|Cally]] does.
* In "[[Dirty Hands]]", Tory only suffers a minor injury when a [[Raptor]] crashes into ''[[Colonial One]]'' close to her.
* In the same episode, Tyrol points out to [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] that choice sets them apart from the Cylons.
* The irony of ironies occurs in "[[Crossroads, Part II]]": a Cylon (Tigh) orders three fellow Cylons (Anders, Tory and Tyrol) to help defend the ship from attacking Cylons.
:Great list. I noted the temple because this is around the first point that these are deliberate ironies. RDM has admitted he didn't pick who would be the final 5 until during this season, so the ironies prior to the exodus are probably unintentional. (Also, just like rain on your wedding day, not all these are ironies :-) For example, Tyrol's decompression is much more clearly a plain-old clue, it was in his clue list. We don't know if the F5 were picked during [[Collaborators]] but that is also an interesting irony if they were.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:00, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
::I know they're not all ironies (that's why this section is titled "Ironies ''and references''"), and they can't all have been intentional. I just suddenly realized the one in "Resistance" (still one of my favorites in this list), and built the rest of the list around it. It's actually funny to see how many of these ironies/references can be found in the first two seasons. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 15:58, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

=="What about Ellen?"==
I think the line can be interpreted in ways other than how it was interpreted in this page. I for one thought he was more likely questioning whether she (along with all the other things he mentioned) were real. After all, he had just learned he was a Cylon, which meant something about his life was different.

This is what I thought anywyas, and it makes a little more sense to me. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 04:09, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

:Yeah, we know that Ellen Tigh wasn't a false memory, but Saul Tigh has no way of knowing which parts of his life are false memories or some programmed delusion. I still think it's more likely that he was revisiting his regrets about her death or considering the possibility that Ellen may be a Cylon. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:43, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
::Was mostly just documenting the fact that they don't know yet about their being special Cylons, as revealed in the Podcast. I have edited the text to be more a reporting of facts than a speculation of his motives.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 16:22, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Perfect! Thanks :) .--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:59, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

::I believe [[Ellen Tigh]] is a [[Cylon]]. While there is evidence she has a sister in [[Valley of Darkness]], she fits being a Cylon and she is a female that can fit the profile. [[Number Three]] may have apoligized for her being killed by Tigh.--[[User:CoreyDanian|CoreyDanian]] 20.19, 2 July 2007

== Proper Noun or not? ==

I think we need some kind of standard here. Either it's "Final Five" or "Final five", but not both. Same with "Significant Seven". Personally I could go either way, but I think most people tend to capitalize the numbers. That would be easier then. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:43, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:I'd go with Final Five. Shane can probably bot-edit once we've reached consensus on the capitalization. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 16:02, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::I agree, since they are sometimes referred only as "The Five" I think the second should be capitalized as well. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:17, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Yup, Final Five. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:23, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
::::For consistency's sake, OK. Same for "Significant Seven" (although that is a production term and not an aired canonical one). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:47, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

== Possible Repercussions Against the Seven ==

Once the fourth seasons of Galactica begins, I, for one, would be thrilled to see what sort of consequences would befall the Cavil models for their actions against Saul; particularly their torturing him mentally and physically.

This, of course, would be provided that whatever repressed memories/programming within them, that is Saul and the other three of five remaining, does not altogether supress the personalities we are familiar with.

And what of Sam regarding the Conoy models' mental torture of Starbuck on New Caprica? Will retribution or amnesty befall Conoy if such a plot or subplot were contemplated by the producers?

I could only imagine how Cally and Kara would react to discovering their spouses are two of the Final Five. I even wonder moreso how Bill (Admiral Adama) will react toward Saul's true race.

Granted, those last two paragraphs had little to do with the possible retribution or amnesty toward the known seven at the hands of Tigh, Tyrol, and Anders; but they are still possibilities worth contemplating.
- {{unsigned|Murrdawg 316}}
:Yeah, the Fantastic Four are in an awkward position. My personal prediction is that the Colonials will meet a Final Five fleet, sending a Tigh copy as a liaison (or a Tyrol/Anders/Tori copy for that matter). That Final Five fleet could appear pretty early: it could be the fleet that jumped into the Ionian System at the end of "[[Crossroads, Part II]]", or they could jump in and defend the Colonials. And we almost forgot to mention Starbuck: she'll have some explaining to do as well. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:59, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

== Further Flipping of the original Battlestar Galactica's Script ==

Okay, seeing as such changes in the redefined and more immensely popular version of Battlestar Galactica have occurred as (1) gender reversals of the original Boomer, Starbuck, Cain, and -- if I am not mistaken -- Number Six, (2) making Cain superior in rank to the elder Adama, and (3) making the Cylons self-aware AND humanoid right out of the gate. Wouldn't it also be logical to give Earth the possible advantage of not only being as advanced if not moreso than the Twelve Colonies of Kobol AND also made both peaceful and military resolutions to problems the Colonials had to learn the hard way with the Cylons where the creation of self-aware, replicated humanoids or androids of their own are concerned?

It would be fascinating to hope that Earth, like and yet unlike the Colonies, not only created artificial life, but acknowledged their sentience and right to exist as an equal and independent race either beside or separate from humans; thus being added contributors to the resolution of the Cylon/Colonial conflict as the series meets its eventual end.

Please let me know what you think.

--[[User:Murrdawg 316|Murrdawg 316]] 05:12, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

:Based on the episode events, there is some truth in your fiction. Ron uses the Original Series as a template, but has obviously grown away from most of the storylines that appeared there (and seriously "warps" what he does use). There is one premise that does permeate throughout the Re-imagined Series, whether the Cylons or humanity itself harass the Fleet: "We have seen the enemy, and they are us." Some [[Sacred Scrolls|elements of return and origin]] (a serious plotline of the show) have bigger complications, not only with [[Hera Agathon]] or the Five, but the [[The Destiny|mysterious destiny and return of Kara Thrace]] and the prophecies and involvement of the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Lords of Kobol]]. -- [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:00, 29 April 2007 (CDT) ([[User_Talk:Spencerian|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Spencerian|Contrib Skillz]] - [[Special:Editcount/Spencerian|Edit Skillz]])

:There are clues that Earth did not have a peaceful creation of its own AIs. The writings of Pythia who "wrote of the exile and rebirth of the human race" 3,600 years BCH are ambiguous, because they are written in the past tense (implying such an exodus in her past) but also treated as prophecies by the colonials for their future. There is not supposed to be any time travel in this show, but there is definitely a theme of repeated cycles of history. However, RDM refuses to answer questions about what Earth is like, though he has worked it out in his internal notes. All we actually have confirmed about Earth (as opposed to learn from colonial mythology) is that whoever took Starbuck brought her there, that its night sky was displayed in the [[Tomb of Athena]] and that it's real and not too far from the [[Ionian nebula]] on a Galactic scale.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:44, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

== S3 cliffhanger tag ==

Is the presence of this tag still justified (now that the Four Revealed section has been added)? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:13, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:It would be cool to just edit it to "events are under scrutiny...". We no longer need to warn people about edit conflicts and such though. But we could also strike it entirely. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
::From my point of view, the tag used to mean the article was no longer correct and/or needed to be cleaned up in light of the [[Crossroads, Part II]] events. That issue has now been resolved. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 08:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
:::The tag (which I created) was primarily to stem the crisis of edit-conflicts, fanwanking, and the like, especially given how the revelations made everything we know almost wrong. It can be removed if the article is now up to date. However, we need to ensure that the [[Humanoid Cylon]] article is noted and how the Final Five contrast and compare, specifically noting how "fundamentally different" they are. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:51, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

== Mevenstar's edit ==

Moved from the article. Please discuss here:

: #1 The Jealous God, #2 Cylon God and #3 One Whose Name cannot be spoken all hint toward a RDM incarnation of Iblis, but as no metaphysical being has been shown yet to exist, nor any AI before the cylons introduced, it seems feasible each of these three descriptions may depict more than one Kobol Lord or the cylon god. There are judeo christian montehists that do not believe in speaking the name of their god Jahovah. The Jealous God can be a lucifer or hades like charcter that has set himself up as the Cylon God, The One whose name cannot be spoken can be a kobol lord that has assumed a Johavah like role in exile with the the thirteenth tribe, and the remaining Kobol Lords are in some way connected to the colonials as pantheon similar in form to Mt. Olympus. They may be real or imagined, metaphysical or AI...and all three groups, colonials, 13th tribe and cylons could be in effect worshipping the same being with radically different interpretaions as to the nature of that being, just like muslims, christains and jews.--[[User:Mevenstar|Mevenstar]] 10:27, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

== Resurrection and multiple copies ==
There's no conclusive evidence supporting multiple copies or resurrection for the Final Five, but there's no conclusive evidence refuting the possibility either. Is there an interview in which it's implied that they cannot resurrect or don't have additional copies? If not, I would prefer a more neutral statement about the lack of evidence either way. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 21:23, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
:Sometime in season 3([[Escape Velocity]]) is rumored that after the Significant Seven become aware that the Final Five(well, at least four) reside in the fleet, they propose to cease attacking them as it is unknown if these Cylons have the ability to resurrect. If they were to die, no where in the Colonial Fleet or Cylon Fleet can the Five, if even, resurrect... Of course, no one knows for sure. -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 22:04, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
::Thanks for pointing it out, I'll add a cite and tweak the note. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:58, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
:::Great! :-) -- [[User:Veepz|Veepz]] 01:43, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

== Possible Cylon ploy ==

----
The whole notion of the final five being based on the two sketches may have more weight than the musical programming. I belive the "four" were manipulated by some Cylon psychic or psychological tampering. I mean how is it that now the Cylons are able to follow Galactica? And how then does the non-ressurrectable final 5 come perilously close to being killed (Tyrol about 5 times), Anders (who knows how many times), Tigh (Abused and tortured by the other cylons)...

No I think the Cylons when they captured these at some point had implanted some tracking beacons on them. When Tigh thought the music was coming from the ship he was close, he probably thought there was a tracking device.

I admit I can't find a good explanation for the sketches. But 2 out of 4 of them are recognizeable. And because she was a CYLON, she was not meant to see the true faces of the final 5, maybe what she saw was a distortion and false information.

--[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:41, 31 January 2008 (CST)

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-05-15T16:34:18Z

Baltarstar: /* The Music */

== Promo Pics ==
Are [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000aaqbh here]. Hard believe that's the last for Season 3. However, they may release a few more for this episode. At least there's the 2-hr movie between seasons. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:03, 27 February 2007 (CST)

That promo pic of Six, Baltar, and Hera appears to be shot in the "Final Five" room. Anyone else notice this? [[User:Paulmooreparks|Metalnose]] 19:57, 28 February 2007 (CST)

: Yes, indeed I did. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:02, 28 February 2007 (CST)

::Baltar's been having visions of Six and Hera in the opera house since season 1, so it's not necessarily connected to the Final Five. Since this episode will reveal 1 or 4 of the Final Five depending on which interview you go by, there's a pretty good chance that it relates to them as well. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:16, 28 February 2007 (CST)

:::Am I completely off-base in thinking that that's Virtual Baltar alongside Virtual Six? Because the other photos of that episode show the "real" Baltar still quite disheveled with a thick beard while that Baltar is clean-shaven, not unlike Caprica's Baltar. Didn't Ron Moore say something about the two alter-egos being key figures in the last episodes of the season? --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 04:50, 3 March 2007 (CST)

::::Not really "off base", in fact I think that's the most popular theory in general. So unless we're all off base.....which is admitedly possible :P --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 07:37, 3 March 2007 (CST)

:::::If they are able to interact with eachother it would have significant implications regarding their nature. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 17:50, 7 March 2007 (CST)

::::::The virtual Baltar normally wears the unique pinstripe suit from the Miniseries, which I don't see here. I do believe this is a visualization and that is Virtual Six, for the Opera House doesn't exist. If the two alter-egos do somehow directly interact, some Serious Shit will ensure, but damned if I can really glean what. This is as big of a season stumper as season 2's cliffhanger. And, no, Kara Thrace will NOT be one of the Five. But it may be, in my guess, one of these three, although they don't realize it: Dualla, Tigh, or Gaeta. I still hold exception to the fact that what Three saw may be the five priests of the Temple of Five, who just so happen to have incarnations in the current timeline. (Note the monkey that exited my anus and is waving at you). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:44, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

==Predictions==
Well, it's early, and I don't care to step on Slander's toes, but I have forseen an event in Crossroads, Part II. The top 5 American Idol contestants cameo as... '''THE FINAL FIVE!''' --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:06, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
*I'd like to make a motion that all Predictions in Talk pages be deleted as they are assinine and serve no other purpose than to promote the person making the prediction. Predictions should be in Forums and chatrooms or discussion groups, not here.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:29, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
**Dude... they're friggin' jokes. No need to be so uptight. You're reminding me of Merv. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:07, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
*** Motion denied. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 12:04, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

OK. The purpose of a talk page is for ''brief'' discussions and questions about the article. Generally, the humorous "predictions" in other talk pages have not detracted from the talk page's purpose or grown in size, and honestly have given me a chuckle, although my feelings on the matter aren't the sole vote about it. Provided that we don't get into numerous predictions from many users to the talk page in some way, I don't see a problem with it at this time. If there's still a problem about it, a silly page could have a bulleted series of such humor if approved by consensus (although I doubt this would work, [[BW:NOT|we're not a forum]]). Sometimes, predictions are fun ''and'' on-topic: See [[Talk:Exodus, Part II]] where I made a good guess. Now, what's considered "funny" is very subjective. I don't think BB's jest is nearly as humorous as, say, the shining white Final Five being revealed as the ''Jackson Five'' or something. Jokes are OK. If it's a bad one, ignore the poster. If a talk page gets too long, ask an admin to moderate if you can't get others to end a pointless or irrelevant topic. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:00, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:Damn I should've thought of the Jackson Five... --20:10, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::[http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/Slanderpanic/1tito.jpg Tito rules!] On a more serious note, if people object to my predictions, I'll stop doing them. Honestly, this sort of in-joke is inevitable when an Internet community develops. In my opinion, it's healthy for us to not take things ''too'' seriously, or we turn into a bunch of elitists. (If anyone in the history of anything has ever needed a collective wedgie, it's Wikipedia's editing community.) Anyway, as there are currently two "Predictions" topics on this Talk page, I think I'll take the rest of the year off, until it comes time to speculate about the DVD-movie and season four. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:19, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

==the commercial==

hey the commercial has anders voice syaing "yeah we're cylons" WTF --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 21:07, 19 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378
:I don't know whose voice it is, but the line is definitely "It's true, we're Cylons". -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:12, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:At first, I thought it was Anders speaking, just because his face appeared at the same moment. {{spoilli|On subsequent viewing, I think it's...drum roll...Chief Tyrol!}} --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 12:26, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::Read the thing linked below. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:41, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

==Predictions-part 2==

I was surfing on the internet, trying to find some spoilers (lol) for the 3rd season finale, and came across this baby: http://www.thetvremote.com/battlestar-galactica-season-finale-spoilers/ (huge spoilers, so don t go there if u don t wanna read em). So, the text reveals who are the 4 of the final 5. As we already know, without the websites help, some of the final five are living and working in the colonial fleet. The 4 that are in question have a past, and we even saw a few times their memories, and we know that they lived in the colonies for quite some time. That being said, the website isn’t really convincing. But then, we know that the final five are special. We don t know what they are, we could suppose that they are more than the other cylon models, much more. We could even think that they are some sort of gods, now that too being said, I can t help but to think that those final 5, being special could have been planted in the colonies before the attacks of the miniseries. There is also a thing about Starbuck and a thing about finding earth on the website. I don t know what are their sources but the text seems very interesting and gives some very interesting ideas. {{unsigned|DedMed}}

:Many of the spoilers fit with what occurred in "Crossroads, Part II," but it brings up many new questions, too. If true, the information completely wrecks or substantially modifies what we thought Cylons were and when they came about. It should be an interesting episode, to say the least. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

::HOLY FRAKKIN FRAK! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:54, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

:::The spoilers from part 1 were correct, adding some credibility. The really shocking part is that one of the alledged final five was around during the Cylon War (yes, you heard it right, the [[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]] is a Cylon, I'm surprised no one made the connection when we've known that she has at least a dozen copies since the miniseries :D). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:27, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

::I kind of wish I hadn't read them, but I couldn't help myself. Goddamit! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 12:26, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Goddamnit is exactly the word. ''Goddamnit!'' --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:03, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

I took my comments about the spoliers out... but just so you know. if that link is true... and it's implied in the video teaser for this episode. I'm starting to see the show in shark infested waters. But I imagine everything is not what it seems. Especially with my homedog Col. Tigh. If he really is (spolier)... then I'm gonna start to lose interest in BSG for real. But honestly I think that is all a "misunderstanding" or perhaps some link to the final five... who I insist are NOT CYLONS! --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 19:58, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

I'm sorry I can't resist posting again. Ok, the final Five, as I stated are not Cylons but are a third faction, some ancient group probably five prophets who orchestrated all of this. It's the only way I can deal with this: I will not be happy if certain persons are in actuality certain entities. Especially people who have been around too long, who lived before the first cylon attack. Sigh... I guess the Caprica TV show will possibly delve into it... but dammit, that show better be frakking good. This show is going too far into paranormal and starting to suffer from hollywood interference. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:23, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:Dude... They're kinda definitionally cylons. They say there're 12 models. We've seen 7. There are 5 more. The Final Five. Done and done. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:28, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

No offense, but I do believe we have enough reason to totally disregard that conclusion. Firstly, and might I add, perfectly timed, the main page has a link to "Who is a cylon", with a website, blog, and a nice canon explanation of who is and likely is not a Cylon. Saul Tigh... Whom I call "The Tigh Dog"... but who is known also as "The Tigh Fighter" (YES!) can't possibly BE a cylon. And why? Just as I stated, he's been known by Adama for too long (at least prior to the FIRST war). Second, this leads to my speculation from the talk on Crossroads Part 1... Even if these guys are the Final Five... they still aren't cylons. The Final Five are not Cylons. That's what I have been suspecting ever since the Oracle gave prophecy to Biers... ever since The Hybrid gave prophecy to Baltar. That's when I remembered Shelly from "Six Degrees of Seperation". Tigh is so not a cylon. If Tigh is a cylon... I mean really a cylon... this show has jumped the shark. Yes I'm sure they THINK they are Cylons, just like the Cylons THINK the final five are Cylons. But Tigh is not a Cylon. As far as the Final five go, maybe he is, maybe not. The Final Five are perhaps a third... NON CYLON... faction, closely related to the oracles, the prophecies, and what not. Possibly some disgruntled 13th tribe members that wanted to get revenge... who knows... but NOT CYLONS! --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 21:04, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
:*sigh* Twelve Cylon Models. 7 have been seen. Five not. The Final Five. THE FINAL FIVE UNREVEALED CYLONS!!! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:07, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
:: I'm with you, BB... Final five will be revealed Sunday. Can't wait to see who, though I already suspect at least four of 'em. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:18, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
::: 4 of 5, and then it'll be the... hmm... damn... can't think of a word starting with O to go with One... --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:58, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
::::Only? Obfuscated? Omega? As for the Tigh rumor, it's plausible that humanoid Cylons date back to the war (they could've discovered a 2000 year old data archive, developed the technology themselves with a Cylon-constructed supercomputer). The term "Cylon" hasn't really been defined, if "Cylon" just means "artificial humanoid" or "self-aware artificial life form" then the Final Five could predate the [[Cylon Centurion|Centurions]] and still be Cylons. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:16, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:::::Yeah! The Only One! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:38, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Aw, come on guys. Firstly, you're buying into the notion that the Cylons are nearly omniscent. Isn't it probable that the Cylons themselves have been mislead? In addition, this stuff about Cylon models being created thousands of years ago makes no sense. There are only 12 models they know of. The encephalitus disease that knocked out a whole basestar of Cylons should debunk that long shot. If we are going to split hairs on what a Cylon is... then we need to reconsider who created them in the first place. I believe the 13th tribe left a faction, most likely the priesthood, behind. That priesthood wanted to fulfill some destiny or resolve some unresolved issue in the distant future and they were the invisible hand behind the first cylon war and the cause behind the Cylon visions (projections), the cylon rebirthing, and other spriritual technologies the Cylons have. In addition I believe the final five are actually the original five prophets that the Cylons mistakenly believe are "cylons". Even if I am wrong about that, to simply dismiss Tigh as a Cylon for the reasons above makes no sense. I bet during the fourth season the so called "revelation" that Tigh, Anders, and the others being cylons will turn out to be a Cylon (or Prophetic) hoax. And this... is where I think Six Degrees of Seperation will play a role. "What happened to Shelly"? She never really left, she has been manipulating things on the ship. It's a long shot, but I'm going to wait it out and see. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 21:34, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Here is my theory on the whole "Tigh is a Cylon" thing, Tigh (and the others) are NOT the Final Five Cylons (they will initally think that they are but are mistaken). They will discover that they are descendants of the Final Five models who intermarried with humans back on Kobol and that the "Final Five" were the first cylons who were created by "the Jealous God" (who is also the God worshiped by The Seven we have seen so far). Which will still leave room for Starbuck to be one of the Final Five. I have to admit that a lot of this is comming just from instinct and my imagination but it would make a lot more sense than Tigh being a Cylon since from what we have already heard that the Cylons are immortal (and is safe to assume that they DO NOT AGE, which Tigh would have done since the First Cylon War 40 years ago). [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 22:05, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

:: EXACTLY! See? Someone else understands what I have been trying to say, although I don't think the writers will put the jealous god angle in that way (but maybe they will). But I agree almost entiely with what you are saying. I just think the final five are some leftovers of the 13th tribe... Wait. I just realized something. The 13th tribe left and there was some war between the "gods" right? What if, the 13th tribe didn't leave on good terms with the other 12? Now if we can fit the Shelly angle into this, I will feel much better. Six degrees still hangs like a disowned child. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 23:54, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

:Why is it safe to assume that the humanoid Cylons do not age? Their physiology is close enough to that of regular humans to allow crossbreeding. Old age wouldn't be a problem, as they could just get resurrected in younger, more recently glown replacement bodies when they die of old age. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:44, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Maybe a growing and aging body function interfers with the ressurrection ability. Exact copies, thus perfectly aligned brainwave patterns to reinsert into the new body. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 23:56, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:Who says they have brainwaves? [[Silica pathways]], remember? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 00:32, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
::So Tigh can't be a Cylon because Cylons don't age, Cylons don't age because ageing would interfere with the resurrection process, and we know that ageing would interfere with the resurrection process because there needs to be some reason for the Cylons not to age? This is a clear circular logic fallacy. There is '''no canonical evidence''' which rules the possibility of Cylons ageing. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:43, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Point taken, but it would seem strange that the Cylons would neglect ageing when they went about making themselves into an IMPROVED version of Human. It would be an inconveinence for a cylon to be dying of old age and ressurecting in what would be (from their point of view) a constant stream for all time. Why is the idea that they found a way around that so strange to you? [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 00:57, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
::::All I'm saying is that there is currently no evidence for or against Cylon ageing, no evidence about whether or not Cylons have the technology for eternal youth and no conclusive proof that they would or would not use such technology if they had it. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:05, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
:::::Agreed. To be honest, I feel the Cylons ''have'' to age, though it may be slower than your normal human. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:20, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
::::::Slowed ageing would explain why [[Hera Agathon]] doesn't seem to walk or talk even though she's about two years old now (although she could be walking and talking off-screen). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:03, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
:::::::But to me it just doesn't seem to fit for something that is machine in origin to age, it throws the aesthetics off drastically. [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 15:10, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
::::::::But they're no longer ''mechanical'' machines. They are more biological. Upon becoming human, which they effectively are, they have demonstrated becoming susceptible to a disease. Thus, with all that, they simply ''have'' to age, as any biologist worth their salt would tell you. The question of how quickly they age is another matter. (Which, as Gordon Ecker pointed out, is a very good reason why Hera hasn't aged so much as she should have. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 15:46, 25 March 2007 (CDT)

No. Cylons don't age because we see them in the ressurrection ship, and being ressurrected in the same exact age. You saw all of the copies of Sharon and six, not one was "younger" or "older". There has been no age variants (and im specifically pointing out scenes from the Cylon perspective, taking the "keep it a secret" response pointless. There is no cylon aging process. They are manufactured, not grown. If they age, it's from the time they are manufactured. Remember this goes back to a discussion about Saul Tigh. He ages normally. But here is a bigger piece of info I have to offer. Saul, Anders, and Tyrol never became succeptible to the encephalitis virus. That alone should end all of this nonsense. Humans are immune to it. Cylons are not. Saul Tigh being a cylon? If so, then the show has jumped... no... done a double reverse backflip over a whole school of sharks. If Saul is a Cylon (and if the final five are actually the bad guy cylon type of cylons) then I am done with this show. So I prefer to give the whole fourth season a chance to redefine "cylon" as Moore has stated. What is a cylon? Who cares. All I know is that the "final five"... if SAUL TIGH is irrefutably one... are some Earth-based 13th tribe faction that is somehow manipulating all of this, for some reason. Either that or they were bugged into thinking they are cylons. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 00:23, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: Actually, ''everything'' ages and deteriorates. Aging is just that, a form of deterioration. To be honest, and getting back to reality, it's really a conceit on the part of the show, since they all use the same actor. Also, just because an older copy of a Sharon exists doesn't mean that the older Sharon must download into an older body. Take the instance of a hard drive: information from an older hard drive can be downloaded into a newer hard drive, without changing the actual data. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:53, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

== Runtime ==

Anyone care to adjust the runtime due to the fact that this episode came out only 2 minutes longer as opposed to the reported 5? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 01:53, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

== Podcast ==

Is it just me, or is there no podcast? Or did SciFi update it this morning and I just haven't checked yet? --[[User:Starsmore|Starsmore]] 12:39, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

: Well, it took SciFi until Tuesday morning to make this episode available on iTunes. So this doesn't surprise me. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:42, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

== Assumed to be Cylons? ==

Why is it assumed that Tyrol, Tigh, Foster and Anders are the final five (well, most of the final five)? Ok, so they _suspect_ that they are, but there's nothing concrete in my opinion. That's them simply rationalising why they all met.
It sounds a lot more of a lame idea now I've written it down, but there it is. [[User:FredTheDeadHead|FredTheDeadHead]] 14:35, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
: Ron Moore has confirmed they were Cylons in a press interview [http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm here]. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 15:36, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
::Also, in that same interview, Moore said that once they got to a certain point in space, the four of them became aware of the fact that they are Cylons. That means that they don't just ''suspect'' that they are Cylons, they ''know'' that they are. Tyrol even mentioned a switch that went off in their heads when they became aware of being Cylons. [[User:Dark Claw|Dark Claw]] 15:56, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

All four of our so called cylons were on New Caprica. And guess what... while we are all here trying to convince ourselves they are cylons, we fail to consider that they were bugged by the cylons. I have no doubt at some point all of them were put in jail or "processed" by the cylons at SOME point (even if a small bit of time). Someone, probably Cavil's line, biologically bugged them, and like the Olympic Carrier, made them beacons for the cylons to follow. Buzzz Buzzz, I hear music. I never heard it until after we all left New Caprica. I'll take a cylon biological experiment over cylons aging and a 40 year cylon model. And remember, I even made a point that if they are the "final five" then the "final" five are actually the "first" five. Which means they are either fooling the cylons or are not cylons. But I choose to believe these "final five" were bugged. And the Final Five certainly aren't cylons either way. Sorry Ron, I'm not falling for your double bluff --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 00:18, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Oh and another thing to remmeber, someone pointed out how the other cylons aren't even aware of these "cylons" right? Well... if they aren't humans being bugged... then why and how else is the cylon fleet able to track them? And why aren't these final five participating in any of the dreams that Roslin gets to have with Six and Athena? I am telling you, the final five are not cylons. I think Roslin and Starbuck are the final five, but these other four are just the first to be "Frak'd" (pun on Punk'd). One last time, making it clear: Anders, Tyrol, Tory, and TIGH are unwitting guinea pigs that were bugged with some undetectable biological tracking device by the cylons while on New Caprica. They bugged them in their sleep, they did it while they were in prison. The Cylons don't know about the final five, or who they are... so the Cylons can't possibly be following a signal sent by people they do not know. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 00:36, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:I don't necessarily see it like that Rather, I see it in that while they might be Cylons, that does not make them '''Cylons'''. Or, to put it another way, as Tigh succinctly put it: "Whatever else I am, whatever else it means, that's the man I want to be. And if I die today, that's the man I'll be." Silica pathways, nanite bloodcells, whatever - they, like Sharon Agathon (and maybe Caprica Six) have chosen to rise above their natures and embrace humanity; the exact opposite of Sharon Valerii. They aspire to be more than they are (or what they fear they are), and that is what defines them (at least in one sense) as human, regardless of the outcome.

:Which makes me curious: with Baltar's earlier Cylon detector, he discovered Boomer was a Cylon. While he gave everyone else a "clean bill of health", surely he'd have had to scan at least one of the four (Anders being the obvious exception) at one time or another. Why, assuming that he did, didn't their natures show up then?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 00:42, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: As Caprica-Six explains in Crossroads, Part I, the Cylon fleet has been following the unique radiation leakage from the tylium refinery. Secondly, there is no evidence one way or the other that the four of them were ever "bugged", or even if the Cylons have that kind of technology. Also, the "Significant Seven" and "Final Five" actually parallel (to an extent) the Titans and the Olympians from Greek mythology, and given much of the Greek underpinnings of the series, I find this easily more believable than the Cylons taking a page out of Scorpius's manual and shoving a neural transponder in their heads, or some such. I would elaborate further, but again this isn't the place to discuss that. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 06:10, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Someone is going to reply that the final five aren't designed like the other seven, and that will explain the cylon detector, the encephalitis virus, and the cylons' inability to recognize them. What it won't explain is the lack of visionary, oracle, and prophetic relevance of these newly revealed final-frauds. The Final Five at the very least should be involved in the prophecies, have some interactions on a spiritual or psychic level (either via the oracles or via the visions), and should have some connection to the priesthood. Here is what happened. The cylon "phone home" bug became active when Tyrol was close to the Eye of Jupiter. The Cylons have some link to the prophecies. But remember, Cavil said that it would take them a longer time to find Earth without the prophecies. So the final five are either not helping or not cognizant regarding them. Ok, I'm done. By the way, where can one post about this stuff, if posting here is inappropriate? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 00:56, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: Tyrol, Tigh and Anders did not board the base ship. Also, Tigh was not XO during this incident as he was pretty much drinking himself in a stupor at that time. Tyrol is a NCO, so he wouldn't have any contact with the Cylons transferred from the baseship, and (from what can be inferred from the episode) the Colonials used quarantine procedures to transfer the boarding party to sickbay (so this removes him from being exposed that way as well). And Anders has no reason (or access) to the Cylon prisoners retrieved from the infected basestar. Also, clearly, the Significant Seven don't know who the Final Five are (consciously speaking), hence D'anna's search.

: As for the best place to discuss this, I would recommend a bulletin board, like Ragnar Anchorage or Scifi.com. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 06:10, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

== Song title ==

I'd just like someone who knows to put up the title of the Dylan song. Thx.--[[User:飞机|飞机]] 02:42, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:It's All Along the Watchtower, but I'm having trouble making edits right now. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::I just added it to the page. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:22, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Can we post the lyrics without a copyright violation? There are some lines in the song that are certainly significant.

Oh, and regarding the arguments on this board about the finale...I think you're missing the real point, which is the fact that Bob Dylan is a Cylon. We should throw him out the airlock.-- [[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 18:24, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: Very funny. ;-) However, the lyrics are posted on [[The Music|the page for "ze musak"]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

::Hey, I didn't say anything about the fact that Tory sings the line "I can't get no relief" while's she's in the ''bathroom''! I know it's significant!

:::Actually, they all four say a line from the song (although thanks...Tory's was the one I missed). I think this is worthy of being added to the signifcant quotes and the notes sections. I'll do it if everyone agrees. (I need to go back and pull them in context). BTW Joe, I like your "ze music" although it's awfully close to Dr. Zee. Something you wanna tell us? I guess I shouldn't speculate on what Joe knows. What is it when you speculate on stuff on a discussion page -- wikiwanking?--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 17:41, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Stopping now... [[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:08, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

OK...I need some help regarding my statement above. All four of them, towards the end of the episode and in succession, recite the first verse, starting with Tyrol's "There must be some way out of here" and finishing with Tory's "I can't get no relief." This is NOT what I was referring to above. Two of the four (not three like a stated above) say lines from the song in conversational context. (see the quotes section of this article to see the exact quotes--I posted them). What I need help with is I find it odd the writers would have Anders and Tigh do this, but not Tory and Tyrol. But for the life of me I cannot find where they do it. I've watched the episode over and over again, but am worried I'm stil missing it. Anyone wanna take a crack at seeing if either of them do it? I even went back and skimmed [[Crossroads, Part 1]], but had no luck.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:06, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

::Ok one correction...sort of. Tyrol, when talkng to Anders says a partial line: "Way outta here." I'm not sure this counts though becasue A.) He was actually referring to the lyrics. The other two were said as part of a different discussion. and B.) It's a partial line. I'm not sure if this qualifies or not.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:11, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

I'd be interested to know who covers this version of the song. I've been looking around for this specific version and I can't find it. Anyone know? --[[User:Jamziz|Jamziz]] 06:27, 31 March 07 (UTC)
:I found the answer to my question, it's the band BT4. You can find their blog here [http://www.bearmccreary.com/html/blog/blogmain.htm BT4 Blog] or you can visit their [http://www.bt4online.com/ Main Page] --[[User:Jamziz|Jamziz]] 19:15, 31 March 2007 (CDT)

== Saul Tigh, Monotheist ==

I think there's a significant bit of Noteworthy Dialogue that should be added to the main page. In the scene where the four "new" Cylons meet, right after they hum a few bars of "All Along the Watchtower," Tigh shouts, "That's enough, God damn it!" What's significant about this line is that Tigh switches to a singular deity rather than his usual plural for this particular expletive, thereby cementing the fact that he really is a full-blown, monotheistic Cylon. [[User:Paulmooreparks|Metalnose]] 18:45, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: Actually, it's really not ''that'' significant ... The Colonials have gone back and forth using the plural and singular forms various times. It might be worthy of a note at least, but the use of "God" by Tigh in this instance isn't all that damning. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:35, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

::In a polytheistic society, using a reference to a single, unspecified god as an expletive could theoretically be considered less sacrilegious than using the name of a specific god. The Christian references can be written off as [[Wikipedia:minced oath|minced oaths]], but that's pretty far into [[Wikipedia:No-Prize|No-Prize]] territory. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:12, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

The discussion and dissection is moot anyway because he says "god''s''damnit". Both me and the closed caption hear it. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 01:32, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

: Well, you're right. I listened to it again and the plural is there. [[User:Paulmooreparks|Metalnose]] 07:13, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
::Ive seen the whole episode twice and the last 10 minutes about 4 times. He clearly said god'''s'''. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 15:39, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

== Removed analysis ==

*Tigh states that if he dies today, he will be remembered as a human officer of the fleet and a patriot. But if death for the Final Five is similar to that of the other humanoid cylon models, if he dies he will be downloaded into a new body, surrounded by cylons intending to manipulate him to their side or box his consciousness, and should he ever come in contact with those who knew him as a human they would instantly regard him as a cylon and therefore an enemy.
<s>**Maybe not. The Cylons don't even know what the [[Final Five]] look like so I doubt that they'd have new bodies for them to download into. The only one who knew one of the [[Number Three]]s ended up [[boxed]] along with her entire model line.</s>

I removed the struck bullet point because
# it's not written in encyclopedic language, but in "I think", "I doubt", etc. language
# the parent bullet point says "'''if''' death for the Final Five is similar to that of the other humanoid Cylon models..."

If you think there's some information in the removed bullet point you can merge into the parent one while being encyclopedic and not redundant, feel free to do so. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:10, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

== The 5th ==

Don't read if you don't want to see any spoilers.

I was watcihng some BSG bloops/gags on the google video. And at some point Starbuck says that she's a cylon and that she is going to die at the end of the sason.
''Battlestar Galactica: Season 3 Gag Reel'' is the name of the video (details : Sci Fi Channel
13 min 1 sec - Jan 5, 2007 ). She says that around : 2m 47s.
Please if someone could verify that, and say if that is a genuine comment that she made. [[User:DedMed|DedMed]] 20:45, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

: It was a joke... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:48, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

: Yeah thought so too, but the thing that is puzzling me is that she said that she is going to die well before that episode and we know how she wanst supposed to do that. Having in mind that that part of her ''interview'' carried out, it might be logical to conclude that the other part could be true as well. Kinda explains her appearance at the end of Crossroads. Nevertheless i can't deny the fact that all of this is under the atmosphere of a joke, and that..well...probably is a joke. [[User:DedMed|DedMed]] 06:05, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
::That interview is from before Season 2 aired. They shot the beginning of Season 3 at the time. "Maelstrom" wasn't even conceived by the writers back then. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:58, 15 April 2007 (CDT)

==Fleet Location==

There is some speculation over on "Big W" that the encounter at the end of the finale takes place in the Large Magellanic Cloud, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxies_in_fiction#Large_Magellanic_Cloud

Can anyone verify what is said here at all? Or is this just another case of baseless speculation? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:01, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

:I'd remove that from Wikipedia. The zoom-out begins right at the edge of our galaxy and indeed in some blue cluster of stars, but the scale doesn't really fit for it to be one of our companion galaxies. The Milky Way is about 100.000 LY in diameter and the Large Magellanic Cloud is 160.000 LY distant. There would have to be a noticeable gap between the two. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:27, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

::Done. If it's questioned, I'll cite your reasoning. Thanks for clarifying :) -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 15:45, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

==The Music==
People have been posting across the internet about how the pop-music that is played at the end of this episode (and alsoo hinted at during the experiences of Tyrol/Anders/Tigh/Tory hearing music in their head). I have been speculating about how the writing will explain that these four are not cylons...or that the final five are not cylons. I never cared one way or another for the music, it didn't matter to me. BUT I just realized, the music is actually relevant. Ok, I will have to go with my 2nd assertation. The "Fantastic Four" + Starbuck are the final five (sad) but the final five are not cylons (happy). How do I know? THE MUSIC. To all those complaing about how the music is inappropriate to this series, I refer you to the opening credits of the movie "Contact". And when this series starts in January, you can all give me my accolades for figuring the script out. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 07:48, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
:Except RDM said they were Cylons... albeit much different than the others. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:55, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

IT doesn't matter at that point. The whole cylon issue is moot. They are not cylons because they are not a part of the Cylon conspiracy against the 12 colonies. They are part of a third faction which either came from Earth or came from the 13th tribe before it left for earth. It's like saying humans are monkeys albeit much different. Come on Merciful, step back and look at the angle I am making. I am not making a simplistic explanation. Now I am baffled as to why Wikipedia says that the dramatic zoom out placed the fleet in the Large Magellianic cloud. It didn't seem that way to me. But if it was, then my theory has been shot down. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 07:58, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
:Dude. RDM said they're Cylons, just different. RDM! He's the one who decides what goes on on the show. What he says, goes. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 08:21, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
Did he not also say that the very definition of a Cylon will be called to question after the revelation of the final five? Yes.. yes he did. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 11:34, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-05-15T13:01:50Z

Baltarstar: /* The Music */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-05-15T12:58:34Z

Baltarstar: /* The Music */

== Promo Pics ==
Are [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000aaqbh here]. Hard believe that's the last for Season 3. However, they may release a few more for this episode. At least there's the 2-hr movie between seasons. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:03, 27 February 2007 (CST)

That promo pic of Six, Baltar, and Hera appears to be shot in the "Final Five" room. Anyone else notice this? [[User:Paulmooreparks|Metalnose]] 19:57, 28 February 2007 (CST)

: Yes, indeed I did. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:02, 28 February 2007 (CST)

::Baltar's been having visions of Six and Hera in the opera house since season 1, so it's not necessarily connected to the Final Five. Since this episode will reveal 1 or 4 of the Final Five depending on which interview you go by, there's a pretty good chance that it relates to them as well. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:16, 28 February 2007 (CST)

:::Am I completely off-base in thinking that that's Virtual Baltar alongside Virtual Six? Because the other photos of that episode show the "real" Baltar still quite disheveled with a thick beard while that Baltar is clean-shaven, not unlike Caprica's Baltar. Didn't Ron Moore say something about the two alter-egos being key figures in the last episodes of the season? --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 04:50, 3 March 2007 (CST)

::::Not really "off base", in fact I think that's the most popular theory in general. So unless we're all off base.....which is admitedly possible :P --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 07:37, 3 March 2007 (CST)

:::::If they are able to interact with eachother it would have significant implications regarding their nature. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 17:50, 7 March 2007 (CST)

::::::The virtual Baltar normally wears the unique pinstripe suit from the Miniseries, which I don't see here. I do believe this is a visualization and that is Virtual Six, for the Opera House doesn't exist. If the two alter-egos do somehow directly interact, some Serious Shit will ensure, but damned if I can really glean what. This is as big of a season stumper as season 2's cliffhanger. And, no, Kara Thrace will NOT be one of the Five. But it may be, in my guess, one of these three, although they don't realize it: Dualla, Tigh, or Gaeta. I still hold exception to the fact that what Three saw may be the five priests of the Temple of Five, who just so happen to have incarnations in the current timeline. (Note the monkey that exited my anus and is waving at you). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:44, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

==Predictions==
Well, it's early, and I don't care to step on Slander's toes, but I have forseen an event in Crossroads, Part II. The top 5 American Idol contestants cameo as... '''THE FINAL FIVE!''' --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:06, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
*I'd like to make a motion that all Predictions in Talk pages be deleted as they are assinine and serve no other purpose than to promote the person making the prediction. Predictions should be in Forums and chatrooms or discussion groups, not here.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:29, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
**Dude... they're friggin' jokes. No need to be so uptight. You're reminding me of Merv. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:07, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
*** Motion denied. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 12:04, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

OK. The purpose of a talk page is for ''brief'' discussions and questions about the article. Generally, the humorous "predictions" in other talk pages have not detracted from the talk page's purpose or grown in size, and honestly have given me a chuckle, although my feelings on the matter aren't the sole vote about it. Provided that we don't get into numerous predictions from many users to the talk page in some way, I don't see a problem with it at this time. If there's still a problem about it, a silly page could have a bulleted series of such humor if approved by consensus (although I doubt this would work, [[BW:NOT|we're not a forum]]). Sometimes, predictions are fun ''and'' on-topic: See [[Talk:Exodus, Part II]] where I made a good guess. Now, what's considered "funny" is very subjective. I don't think BB's jest is nearly as humorous as, say, the shining white Final Five being revealed as the ''Jackson Five'' or something. Jokes are OK. If it's a bad one, ignore the poster. If a talk page gets too long, ask an admin to moderate if you can't get others to end a pointless or irrelevant topic. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:00, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:Damn I should've thought of the Jackson Five... --20:10, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::[http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v518/Slanderpanic/1tito.jpg Tito rules!] On a more serious note, if people object to my predictions, I'll stop doing them. Honestly, this sort of in-joke is inevitable when an Internet community develops. In my opinion, it's healthy for us to not take things ''too'' seriously, or we turn into a bunch of elitists. (If anyone in the history of anything has ever needed a collective wedgie, it's Wikipedia's editing community.) Anyway, as there are currently two "Predictions" topics on this Talk page, I think I'll take the rest of the year off, until it comes time to speculate about the DVD-movie and season four. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:19, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

==the commercial==

hey the commercial has anders voice syaing "yeah we're cylons" WTF --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 21:07, 19 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378
:I don't know whose voice it is, but the line is definitely "It's true, we're Cylons". -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:12, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:At first, I thought it was Anders speaking, just because his face appeared at the same moment. {{spoilli|On subsequent viewing, I think it's...drum roll...Chief Tyrol!}} --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 12:26, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::Read the thing linked below. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:41, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

==Predictions-part 2==

I was surfing on the internet, trying to find some spoilers (lol) for the 3rd season finale, and came across this baby: http://www.thetvremote.com/battlestar-galactica-season-finale-spoilers/ (huge spoilers, so don t go there if u don t wanna read em). So, the text reveals who are the 4 of the final 5. As we already know, without the websites help, some of the final five are living and working in the colonial fleet. The 4 that are in question have a past, and we even saw a few times their memories, and we know that they lived in the colonies for quite some time. That being said, the website isn’t really convincing. But then, we know that the final five are special. We don t know what they are, we could suppose that they are more than the other cylon models, much more. We could even think that they are some sort of gods, now that too being said, I can t help but to think that those final 5, being special could have been planted in the colonies before the attacks of the miniseries. There is also a thing about Starbuck and a thing about finding earth on the website. I don t know what are their sources but the text seems very interesting and gives some very interesting ideas. {{unsigned|DedMed}}

:Many of the spoilers fit with what occurred in "Crossroads, Part II," but it brings up many new questions, too. If true, the information completely wrecks or substantially modifies what we thought Cylons were and when they came about. It should be an interesting episode, to say the least. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

::HOLY FRAKKIN FRAK! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 12:54, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

:::The spoilers from part 1 were correct, adding some credibility. The really shocking part is that one of the alledged final five was around during the Cylon War (yes, you heard it right, the [[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]] is a Cylon, I'm surprised no one made the connection when we've known that she has at least a dozen copies since the miniseries :D). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:27, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

::I kind of wish I hadn't read them, but I couldn't help myself. Goddamit! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 12:26, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Goddamnit is exactly the word. ''Goddamnit!'' --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:03, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

I took my comments about the spoliers out... but just so you know. if that link is true... and it's implied in the video teaser for this episode. I'm starting to see the show in shark infested waters. But I imagine everything is not what it seems. Especially with my homedog Col. Tigh. If he really is (spolier)... then I'm gonna start to lose interest in BSG for real. But honestly I think that is all a "misunderstanding" or perhaps some link to the final five... who I insist are NOT CYLONS! --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 19:58, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

I'm sorry I can't resist posting again. Ok, the final Five, as I stated are not Cylons but are a third faction, some ancient group probably five prophets who orchestrated all of this. It's the only way I can deal with this: I will not be happy if certain persons are in actuality certain entities. Especially people who have been around too long, who lived before the first cylon attack. Sigh... I guess the Caprica TV show will possibly delve into it... but dammit, that show better be frakking good. This show is going too far into paranormal and starting to suffer from hollywood interference. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:23, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:Dude... They're kinda definitionally cylons. They say there're 12 models. We've seen 7. There are 5 more. The Final Five. Done and done. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:28, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

No offense, but I do believe we have enough reason to totally disregard that conclusion. Firstly, and might I add, perfectly timed, the main page has a link to "Who is a cylon", with a website, blog, and a nice canon explanation of who is and likely is not a Cylon. Saul Tigh... Whom I call "The Tigh Dog"... but who is known also as "The Tigh Fighter" (YES!) can't possibly BE a cylon. And why? Just as I stated, he's been known by Adama for too long (at least prior to the FIRST war). Second, this leads to my speculation from the talk on Crossroads Part 1... Even if these guys are the Final Five... they still aren't cylons. The Final Five are not Cylons. That's what I have been suspecting ever since the Oracle gave prophecy to Biers... ever since The Hybrid gave prophecy to Baltar. That's when I remembered Shelly from "Six Degrees of Seperation". Tigh is so not a cylon. If Tigh is a cylon... I mean really a cylon... this show has jumped the shark. Yes I'm sure they THINK they are Cylons, just like the Cylons THINK the final five are Cylons. But Tigh is not a Cylon. As far as the Final five go, maybe he is, maybe not. The Final Five are perhaps a third... NON CYLON... faction, closely related to the oracles, the prophecies, and what not. Possibly some disgruntled 13th tribe members that wanted to get revenge... who knows... but NOT CYLONS! --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 21:04, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
:*sigh* Twelve Cylon Models. 7 have been seen. Five not. The Final Five. THE FINAL FIVE UNREVEALED CYLONS!!! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:07, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
:: I'm with you, BB... Final five will be revealed Sunday. Can't wait to see who, though I already suspect at least four of 'em. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 21:18, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
::: 4 of 5, and then it'll be the... hmm... damn... can't think of a word starting with O to go with One... --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:58, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
::::Only? Obfuscated? Omega? As for the Tigh rumor, it's plausible that humanoid Cylons date back to the war (they could've discovered a 2000 year old data archive, developed the technology themselves with a Cylon-constructed supercomputer). The term "Cylon" hasn't really been defined, if "Cylon" just means "artificial humanoid" or "self-aware artificial life form" then the Final Five could predate the [[Cylon Centurion|Centurions]] and still be Cylons. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:16, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:::::Yeah! The Only One! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 15:38, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Aw, come on guys. Firstly, you're buying into the notion that the Cylons are nearly omniscent. Isn't it probable that the Cylons themselves have been mislead? In addition, this stuff about Cylon models being created thousands of years ago makes no sense. There are only 12 models they know of. The encephalitus disease that knocked out a whole basestar of Cylons should debunk that long shot. If we are going to split hairs on what a Cylon is... then we need to reconsider who created them in the first place. I believe the 13th tribe left a faction, most likely the priesthood, behind. That priesthood wanted to fulfill some destiny or resolve some unresolved issue in the distant future and they were the invisible hand behind the first cylon war and the cause behind the Cylon visions (projections), the cylon rebirthing, and other spriritual technologies the Cylons have. In addition I believe the final five are actually the original five prophets that the Cylons mistakenly believe are "cylons". Even if I am wrong about that, to simply dismiss Tigh as a Cylon for the reasons above makes no sense. I bet during the fourth season the so called "revelation" that Tigh, Anders, and the others being cylons will turn out to be a Cylon (or Prophetic) hoax. And this... is where I think Six Degrees of Seperation will play a role. "What happened to Shelly"? She never really left, she has been manipulating things on the ship. It's a long shot, but I'm going to wait it out and see. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 21:34, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Here is my theory on the whole "Tigh is a Cylon" thing, Tigh (and the others) are NOT the Final Five Cylons (they will initally think that they are but are mistaken). They will discover that they are descendants of the Final Five models who intermarried with humans back on Kobol and that the "Final Five" were the first cylons who were created by "the Jealous God" (who is also the God worshiped by The Seven we have seen so far). Which will still leave room for Starbuck to be one of the Final Five. I have to admit that a lot of this is comming just from instinct and my imagination but it would make a lot more sense than Tigh being a Cylon since from what we have already heard that the Cylons are immortal (and is safe to assume that they DO NOT AGE, which Tigh would have done since the First Cylon War 40 years ago). [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 22:05, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

:: EXACTLY! See? Someone else understands what I have been trying to say, although I don't think the writers will put the jealous god angle in that way (but maybe they will). But I agree almost entiely with what you are saying. I just think the final five are some leftovers of the 13th tribe... Wait. I just realized something. The 13th tribe left and there was some war between the "gods" right? What if, the 13th tribe didn't leave on good terms with the other 12? Now if we can fit the Shelly angle into this, I will feel much better. Six degrees still hangs like a disowned child. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 23:54, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

:Why is it safe to assume that the humanoid Cylons do not age? Their physiology is close enough to that of regular humans to allow crossbreeding. Old age wouldn't be a problem, as they could just get resurrected in younger, more recently glown replacement bodies when they die of old age. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 23:44, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Maybe a growing and aging body function interfers with the ressurrection ability. Exact copies, thus perfectly aligned brainwave patterns to reinsert into the new body. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 23:56, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:Who says they have brainwaves? [[Silica pathways]], remember? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 00:32, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
::So Tigh can't be a Cylon because Cylons don't age, Cylons don't age because ageing would interfere with the resurrection process, and we know that ageing would interfere with the resurrection process because there needs to be some reason for the Cylons not to age? This is a clear circular logic fallacy. There is '''no canonical evidence''' which rules the possibility of Cylons ageing. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 00:43, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Point taken, but it would seem strange that the Cylons would neglect ageing when they went about making themselves into an IMPROVED version of Human. It would be an inconveinence for a cylon to be dying of old age and ressurecting in what would be (from their point of view) a constant stream for all time. Why is the idea that they found a way around that so strange to you? [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 00:57, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
::::All I'm saying is that there is currently no evidence for or against Cylon ageing, no evidence about whether or not Cylons have the technology for eternal youth and no conclusive proof that they would or would not use such technology if they had it. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:05, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
:::::Agreed. To be honest, I feel the Cylons ''have'' to age, though it may be slower than your normal human. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:20, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
::::::Slowed ageing would explain why [[Hera Agathon]] doesn't seem to walk or talk even though she's about two years old now (although she could be walking and talking off-screen). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 09:03, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
:::::::But to me it just doesn't seem to fit for something that is machine in origin to age, it throws the aesthetics off drastically. [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 15:10, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
::::::::But they're no longer ''mechanical'' machines. They are more biological. Upon becoming human, which they effectively are, they have demonstrated becoming susceptible to a disease. Thus, with all that, they simply ''have'' to age, as any biologist worth their salt would tell you. The question of how quickly they age is another matter. (Which, as Gordon Ecker pointed out, is a very good reason why Hera hasn't aged so much as she should have. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 15:46, 25 March 2007 (CDT)

No. Cylons don't age because we see them in the ressurrection ship, and being ressurrected in the same exact age. You saw all of the copies of Sharon and six, not one was "younger" or "older". There has been no age variants (and im specifically pointing out scenes from the Cylon perspective, taking the "keep it a secret" response pointless. There is no cylon aging process. They are manufactured, not grown. If they age, it's from the time they are manufactured. Remember this goes back to a discussion about Saul Tigh. He ages normally. But here is a bigger piece of info I have to offer. Saul, Anders, and Tyrol never became succeptible to the encephalitis virus. That alone should end all of this nonsense. Humans are immune to it. Cylons are not. Saul Tigh being a cylon? If so, then the show has jumped... no... done a double reverse backflip over a whole school of sharks. If Saul is a Cylon (and if the final five are actually the bad guy cylon type of cylons) then I am done with this show. So I prefer to give the whole fourth season a chance to redefine "cylon" as Moore has stated. What is a cylon? Who cares. All I know is that the "final five"... if SAUL TIGH is irrefutably one... are some Earth-based 13th tribe faction that is somehow manipulating all of this, for some reason. Either that or they were bugged into thinking they are cylons. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 00:23, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: Actually, ''everything'' ages and deteriorates. Aging is just that, a form of deterioration. To be honest, and getting back to reality, it's really a conceit on the part of the show, since they all use the same actor. Also, just because an older copy of a Sharon exists doesn't mean that the older Sharon must download into an older body. Take the instance of a hard drive: information from an older hard drive can be downloaded into a newer hard drive, without changing the actual data. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:53, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

== Runtime ==

Anyone care to adjust the runtime due to the fact that this episode came out only 2 minutes longer as opposed to the reported 5? --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 01:53, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

== Podcast ==

Is it just me, or is there no podcast? Or did SciFi update it this morning and I just haven't checked yet? --[[User:Starsmore|Starsmore]] 12:39, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

: Well, it took SciFi until Tuesday morning to make this episode available on iTunes. So this doesn't surprise me. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:42, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

== Assumed to be Cylons? ==

Why is it assumed that Tyrol, Tigh, Foster and Anders are the final five (well, most of the final five)? Ok, so they _suspect_ that they are, but there's nothing concrete in my opinion. That's them simply rationalising why they all met.
It sounds a lot more of a lame idea now I've written it down, but there it is. [[User:FredTheDeadHead|FredTheDeadHead]] 14:35, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
: Ron Moore has confirmed they were Cylons in a press interview [http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07085/770732-352.stm here]. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 15:36, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
::Also, in that same interview, Moore said that once they got to a certain point in space, the four of them became aware of the fact that they are Cylons. That means that they don't just ''suspect'' that they are Cylons, they ''know'' that they are. Tyrol even mentioned a switch that went off in their heads when they became aware of being Cylons. [[User:Dark Claw|Dark Claw]] 15:56, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

All four of our so called cylons were on New Caprica. And guess what... while we are all here trying to convince ourselves they are cylons, we fail to consider that they were bugged by the cylons. I have no doubt at some point all of them were put in jail or "processed" by the cylons at SOME point (even if a small bit of time). Someone, probably Cavil's line, biologically bugged them, and like the Olympic Carrier, made them beacons for the cylons to follow. Buzzz Buzzz, I hear music. I never heard it until after we all left New Caprica. I'll take a cylon biological experiment over cylons aging and a 40 year cylon model. And remember, I even made a point that if they are the "final five" then the "final" five are actually the "first" five. Which means they are either fooling the cylons or are not cylons. But I choose to believe these "final five" were bugged. And the Final Five certainly aren't cylons either way. Sorry Ron, I'm not falling for your double bluff --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 00:18, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Oh and another thing to remmeber, someone pointed out how the other cylons aren't even aware of these "cylons" right? Well... if they aren't humans being bugged... then why and how else is the cylon fleet able to track them? And why aren't these final five participating in any of the dreams that Roslin gets to have with Six and Athena? I am telling you, the final five are not cylons. I think Roslin and Starbuck are the final five, but these other four are just the first to be "Frak'd" (pun on Punk'd). One last time, making it clear: Anders, Tyrol, Tory, and TIGH are unwitting guinea pigs that were bugged with some undetectable biological tracking device by the cylons while on New Caprica. They bugged them in their sleep, they did it while they were in prison. The Cylons don't know about the final five, or who they are... so the Cylons can't possibly be following a signal sent by people they do not know. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 00:36, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:I don't necessarily see it like that Rather, I see it in that while they might be Cylons, that does not make them '''Cylons'''. Or, to put it another way, as Tigh succinctly put it: "Whatever else I am, whatever else it means, that's the man I want to be. And if I die today, that's the man I'll be." Silica pathways, nanite bloodcells, whatever - they, like Sharon Agathon (and maybe Caprica Six) have chosen to rise above their natures and embrace humanity; the exact opposite of Sharon Valerii. They aspire to be more than they are (or what they fear they are), and that is what defines them (at least in one sense) as human, regardless of the outcome.

:Which makes me curious: with Baltar's earlier Cylon detector, he discovered Boomer was a Cylon. While he gave everyone else a "clean bill of health", surely he'd have had to scan at least one of the four (Anders being the obvious exception) at one time or another. Why, assuming that he did, didn't their natures show up then?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 00:42, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: As Caprica-Six explains in Crossroads, Part I, the Cylon fleet has been following the unique radiation leakage from the tylium refinery. Secondly, there is no evidence one way or the other that the four of them were ever "bugged", or even if the Cylons have that kind of technology. Also, the "Significant Seven" and "Final Five" actually parallel (to an extent) the Titans and the Olympians from Greek mythology, and given much of the Greek underpinnings of the series, I find this easily more believable than the Cylons taking a page out of Scorpius's manual and shoving a neural transponder in their heads, or some such. I would elaborate further, but again this isn't the place to discuss that. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 06:10, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Someone is going to reply that the final five aren't designed like the other seven, and that will explain the cylon detector, the encephalitis virus, and the cylons' inability to recognize them. What it won't explain is the lack of visionary, oracle, and prophetic relevance of these newly revealed final-frauds. The Final Five at the very least should be involved in the prophecies, have some interactions on a spiritual or psychic level (either via the oracles or via the visions), and should have some connection to the priesthood. Here is what happened. The cylon "phone home" bug became active when Tyrol was close to the Eye of Jupiter. The Cylons have some link to the prophecies. But remember, Cavil said that it would take them a longer time to find Earth without the prophecies. So the final five are either not helping or not cognizant regarding them. Ok, I'm done. By the way, where can one post about this stuff, if posting here is inappropriate? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 00:56, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: Tyrol, Tigh and Anders did not board the base ship. Also, Tigh was not XO during this incident as he was pretty much drinking himself in a stupor at that time. Tyrol is a NCO, so he wouldn't have any contact with the Cylons transferred from the baseship, and (from what can be inferred from the episode) the Colonials used quarantine procedures to transfer the boarding party to sickbay (so this removes him from being exposed that way as well). And Anders has no reason (or access) to the Cylon prisoners retrieved from the infected basestar. Also, clearly, the Significant Seven don't know who the Final Five are (consciously speaking), hence D'anna's search.

: As for the best place to discuss this, I would recommend a bulletin board, like Ragnar Anchorage or Scifi.com. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 06:10, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

== Song title ==

I'd just like someone who knows to put up the title of the Dylan song. Thx.--[[User:飞机|飞机]] 02:42, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
:It's All Along the Watchtower, but I'm having trouble making edits right now. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::I just added it to the page. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:22, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Can we post the lyrics without a copyright violation? There are some lines in the song that are certainly significant.

Oh, and regarding the arguments on this board about the finale...I think you're missing the real point, which is the fact that Bob Dylan is a Cylon. We should throw him out the airlock.-- [[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 18:24, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: Very funny. ;-) However, the lyrics are posted on [[The Music|the page for "ze musak"]]. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:32, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

::Hey, I didn't say anything about the fact that Tory sings the line "I can't get no relief" while's she's in the ''bathroom''! I know it's significant!

:::Actually, they all four say a line from the song (although thanks...Tory's was the one I missed). I think this is worthy of being added to the signifcant quotes and the notes sections. I'll do it if everyone agrees. (I need to go back and pull them in context). BTW Joe, I like your "ze music" although it's awfully close to Dr. Zee. Something you wanna tell us? I guess I shouldn't speculate on what Joe knows. What is it when you speculate on stuff on a discussion page -- wikiwanking?--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 17:41, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Stopping now... [[User:Dallan007|Dallan007]] 22:08, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

OK...I need some help regarding my statement above. All four of them, towards the end of the episode and in succession, recite the first verse, starting with Tyrol's "There must be some way out of here" and finishing with Tory's "I can't get no relief." This is NOT what I was referring to above. Two of the four (not three like a stated above) say lines from the song in conversational context. (see the quotes section of this article to see the exact quotes--I posted them). What I need help with is I find it odd the writers would have Anders and Tigh do this, but not Tory and Tyrol. But for the life of me I cannot find where they do it. I've watched the episode over and over again, but am worried I'm stil missing it. Anyone wanna take a crack at seeing if either of them do it? I even went back and skimmed [[Crossroads, Part 1]], but had no luck.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:06, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

::Ok one correction...sort of. Tyrol, when talkng to Anders says a partial line: "Way outta here." I'm not sure this counts though becasue A.) He was actually referring to the lyrics. The other two were said as part of a different discussion. and B.) It's a partial line. I'm not sure if this qualifies or not.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 21:11, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

I'd be interested to know who covers this version of the song. I've been looking around for this specific version and I can't find it. Anyone know? --[[User:Jamziz|Jamziz]] 06:27, 31 March 07 (UTC)
:I found the answer to my question, it's the band BT4. You can find their blog here [http://www.bearmccreary.com/html/blog/blogmain.htm BT4 Blog] or you can visit their [http://www.bt4online.com/ Main Page] --[[User:Jamziz|Jamziz]] 19:15, 31 March 2007 (CDT)

== Saul Tigh, Monotheist ==

I think there's a significant bit of Noteworthy Dialogue that should be added to the main page. In the scene where the four "new" Cylons meet, right after they hum a few bars of "All Along the Watchtower," Tigh shouts, "That's enough, God damn it!" What's significant about this line is that Tigh switches to a singular deity rather than his usual plural for this particular expletive, thereby cementing the fact that he really is a full-blown, monotheistic Cylon. [[User:Paulmooreparks|Metalnose]] 18:45, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

: Actually, it's really not ''that'' significant ... The Colonials have gone back and forth using the plural and singular forms various times. It might be worthy of a note at least, but the use of "God" by Tigh in this instance isn't all that damning. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:35, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

::In a polytheistic society, using a reference to a single, unspecified god as an expletive could theoretically be considered less sacrilegious than using the name of a specific god. The Christian references can be written off as [[Wikipedia:minced oath|minced oaths]], but that's pretty far into [[Wikipedia:No-Prize|No-Prize]] territory. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 20:12, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

The discussion and dissection is moot anyway because he says "god''s''damnit". Both me and the closed caption hear it. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 01:32, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

: Well, you're right. I listened to it again and the plural is there. [[User:Paulmooreparks|Metalnose]] 07:13, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
::Ive seen the whole episode twice and the last 10 minutes about 4 times. He clearly said god'''s'''. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 15:39, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

== Removed analysis ==

*Tigh states that if he dies today, he will be remembered as a human officer of the fleet and a patriot. But if death for the Final Five is similar to that of the other humanoid cylon models, if he dies he will be downloaded into a new body, surrounded by cylons intending to manipulate him to their side or box his consciousness, and should he ever come in contact with those who knew him as a human they would instantly regard him as a cylon and therefore an enemy.
<s>**Maybe not. The Cylons don't even know what the [[Final Five]] look like so I doubt that they'd have new bodies for them to download into. The only one who knew one of the [[Number Three]]s ended up [[boxed]] along with her entire model line.</s>

I removed the struck bullet point because
# it's not written in encyclopedic language, but in "I think", "I doubt", etc. language
# the parent bullet point says "'''if''' death for the Final Five is similar to that of the other humanoid Cylon models..."

If you think there's some information in the removed bullet point you can merge into the parent one while being encyclopedic and not redundant, feel free to do so. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 07:10, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

== The 5th ==

Don't read if you don't want to see any spoilers.

I was watcihng some BSG bloops/gags on the google video. And at some point Starbuck says that she's a cylon and that she is going to die at the end of the sason.
''Battlestar Galactica: Season 3 Gag Reel'' is the name of the video (details : Sci Fi Channel
13 min 1 sec - Jan 5, 2007 ). She says that around : 2m 47s.
Please if someone could verify that, and say if that is a genuine comment that she made. [[User:DedMed|DedMed]] 20:45, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

: It was a joke... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:48, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

: Yeah thought so too, but the thing that is puzzling me is that she said that she is going to die well before that episode and we know how she wanst supposed to do that. Having in mind that that part of her ''interview'' carried out, it might be logical to conclude that the other part could be true as well. Kinda explains her appearance at the end of Crossroads. Nevertheless i can't deny the fact that all of this is under the atmosphere of a joke, and that..well...probably is a joke. [[User:DedMed|DedMed]] 06:05, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
::That interview is from before Season 2 aired. They shot the beginning of Season 3 at the time. "Maelstrom" wasn't even conceived by the writers back then. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:58, 15 April 2007 (CDT)

==Fleet Location==

There is some speculation over on "Big W" that the encounter at the end of the finale takes place in the Large Magellanic Cloud, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxies_in_fiction#Large_Magellanic_Cloud

Can anyone verify what is said here at all? Or is this just another case of baseless speculation? -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:01, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

:I'd remove that from Wikipedia. The zoom-out begins right at the edge of our galaxy and indeed in some blue cluster of stars, but the scale doesn't really fit for it to be one of our companion galaxies. The Milky Way is about 100.000 LY in diameter and the Large Magellanic Cloud is 160.000 LY distant. There would have to be a noticeable gap between the two. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:27, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

::Done. If it's questioned, I'll cite your reasoning. Thanks for clarifying :) -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 15:45, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

==The Music==
People have been posting across the internet about how the pop-music that is played at the end of this episode (and alsoo hinted at during the experiences of Tyrol/Anders/Tigh/Tory hearing music in their head). I have been speculating about how the writing will explain that these four are not cylons...or that the final five are not cylons. I never cared one way or another for the music, it didn't matter to me. BUT I just realized, the music is actually relevant. Ok, I will have to go with my 2nd assertation. The "Fantastic Four" + Starbuck are the final five (sad) but the final five are not cylons (happy). How do I know? THE MUSIC. To all those complaing about how the music is inappropriate to this series, I refer you to the opening credits of the movie "Contact". And when this series starts in January, you can all give me my accolades for figuring the script out. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 07:48, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
:Except RDM said they were Cylons... albeit much different than the others. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 07:55, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

IT doesn't matter at that point. The whole cylon issue is moot. They are not cylons because they are not a part of the Cylon conspiracy against the 12 colonies. They are part of a third faction which either came from Earth or came from the 13th tribe before it left for earth. It's like saying humans are monkeys albeit much different. Come on Merciful, step back and look at the angle I am making. I am not making a simplistic explanation. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 07:58, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-05-15T12:48:18Z

Baltarstar: /* Fleet Location */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-28T05:56:38Z

Baltarstar: /* Assumed to be Cylons? */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-28T05:38:29Z

Baltarstar: /* Assumed to be Cylons? */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-28T05:36:37Z

Baltarstar: /* Assumed to be Cylons? */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-28T05:23:50Z

Baltarstar: /* Predictions-part 2 */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-28T05:18:42Z

Baltarstar: /* Assumed to be Cylons? */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-25T04:56:30Z

Baltarstar: /* Predictions-part 2 */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-25T04:54:46Z

Baltarstar: /* Predictions-part 2 */

Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

2007-03-25T04:02:52Z

Baltarstar: /* Warning - possibly big spoiler below */

I took the image into photoshop (I do minor image tweaking at my job), did everything I could to enhance it, just for fun. And I'd like to make a grandiose speculation that the Five look, well, slightly mutilated...or mutated. Botched Cylon experiments, torutred and insane minds!!! I don't know, That one "fellow's" hand reaching to Three looks awefully stumpy...of course it could always be some foreshortening.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 10:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Yup, totally convinced they are mutilated and grotesque, their faces, albiet shrouded are just a little odd and produce strange shadow tones.--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 11:17, 3 January 2007 (CST)

:It is also possible that the show is intentionally masquerading their faces to allow the show to cast anyone in these roles at a later time, rather than fixing the faces of the characters right away. In any case, any interpretations of these promo shots are too speculative to make a valid assessment. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:38, 3 January 2007 (CST)

We should get rid of the main picture - we don't know for sure that they are in fact the Final Five, they may be simply a hallucation on the part of D'eanna when she resurrects/is boxed.
Or perhaps the five temple priests who are not Cylons. Point is, we don't know --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:26, 10 January 2007 (CST)
:Writer's often portray canon information through a character, in this case D'Anna. That is the same vision she always has when she dies, we've already seen a part of the scene on "Hero", and it's what she's been seeing again and again. Her sketches and such are merely her representations of what she saw, this picture is what she actually saw. Anyways, even if you choose to not believe D'Anna, and even if you doubt the only logical explanation, I think David Eick confirmed that it's them she sees on a EW article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:53, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== ID ==

Looking at the high resolution picture, I can identify most of the actors in these robes. Whether they actually are the Final Five Cylons or whether this is just a dream sequence and they grabbed whoever was convenient is not clear. From the left to the right:

# Aaron Douglas, better known as Chief Tyrol. The stature and facial features are a perfect match.
# Tahmoh Penikett, better known as Helo. This isn't as certain, but the lower face and stature both match.
# Unidentified female
# Unidentified female
# The big, bald Asian pilot who's always in the rec room.

[[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 21:32, 9 January 2007 (CST)

No two cylons can have a child which makes Tahmoh Penikett wrong. Don't know about the others, though the "Chief" guy is certainly too short --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 06:21, 10 January 2007 (CST)

:Major kudos if you are correct, cause I cartainly can't see it myself :P -[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 06:27, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::They're just stand-ins, they don't release promo pics at random, and they wouldn't reveal anyone in such a way when having a chance to do it on screen. But as said before, those faces are vague enough to be almost anyone. They might have similarities, but a lot of people in the world can have similar features without looking the same. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 06:32, 10 January 2007 (CST)

::The thing of it is, is; we're all going to see what we want in them untill we actually see them. I'm pretty sure I'm not right (above comment) and fairly sure when they did these Promo pics and ambiguous #3 "in the hinterlands of Cylon death land" dreams, that they wouldn't have cast definite actors...it's a pretty significant choice to make of who should play the roles...so, stick some people in robes and shrouds to stand in and any old person will do for the snippets, clips, dream scenes and teaser tastys. we won't know 'till we know--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 07:42, 12 January 2007 (CST)

:Personally I think the show would be smart to not put all of their eggs in one basket on this whole final five thing. At least one of the five should be someone we've never seen, one should be someone who is alive and in the fleet and at least one should be someone who was in the fleet that has been dead for a while. Making all of the five sleepers who are in the fleet or making them all dead characters or all new characters wouldn't be very cool. Making it a balance between the three would be nice. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 19 January 2007.

I hate to repeat what's been stated, but I think Philwelch is looking way too hard because I see no one - and I mean ''no one'' familar in that image. Not even a vague similarity. I'm certain they're just stand-ins, but I find it odd that they'd release an image that shows so much, but also expect us not to see a match when the five are revealed. You'd figure they'd put more effort in hiding the faces, just to cover the bases. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 08:43, 22 January 2007 (CST)

== Reason for Locking ==

I don't want the server to flood or 4k people trying to edit this page. Take your time and finsh everything else first. Unprotect this at Midnight. [[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:21, 21 January 2007 (CST)

== Interpretation question ==

After thinking about this, there are only two individuals that believe that what D'anna/Three has seen is actually images of the final five Cylons: herself, and Baltar. The Colonials scripture know that the Temple of Five was human-built, long before the Cylons existed, and was related to five priests who may have worshiped someone different from the Lords of Kobol. There's plenty of inference (with Kara Thrace, Leoben, [[Dodona Selloi]], and the Threes) that there is a connection between the Lords of Kobol and the Cylon God. My problem is that, while the notion that the final five Cylons has been established, there isn't information ''between'' the characters that verifies that what Three has seen are actual Cylon or human figures.

For that reason, I am going to rewrite this article with a level of neutrality that does not support only Three's belief since there is Colonial connections that exist. The final five represent five human priestly people (blessed, cursed or otherwise cited) or five Cylons (boxed, or related somehow to the origin of the new Cylon, which, after "Rapture," is not clear-cut. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
:Well....RDM called them "The Final Five" in his podcast...--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 10:03, 27 January 2007 (CST)
::The podcast doesn't elaborate on their nature, and Ron has twisted the truth before to keep the storyline a mystery until aired. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:06, 27 January 2007 (CST)

==Three wasn't the Only One==
I think we should also mention that Number Three wasn't the only Cylon to believe they were the Final Five. The Cavils believed it well enough to try to shoot her and even box her. So I think we should at least mention that they too believed Three was seeing the Final Five, enough to essentially eliminate 1/3 of their known female population. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 14:00, 27 January 2007 (CST)

The light that shines down as the Nova goes is real, and D'anna starts bleeding and dies for no other apparent reason. If it's an illusion in her mind, these things don't match.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 21:22, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:It didn't seem like an illusion, but rather a simple isolate hologram, which wouldn't be surprising since that's the kind of tech these things ususally have in them. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 22:35, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::The podcast supports the assumption that Three saw the actual Final Five, although I don't think it's explicitly stated. As for the device in the temple, there's quite a few possible explanations and I doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer about which one is correct. The device could've triggered both Three's death and the visions directly, the device could've triggered Three's death, resulting in a vision just like her previous deaths did or the device could've triggered the visions, resulting in Three's death due to some hypothetical built-in failsafe in Three. Each of those three possibilities also has a number of explanations (for example, if the device caused the visions, it may have been a technological substitute for [[chamalla]], it may have been designed to unlock repressed memories or in may have been programmed with the images of the Final Five at any time in the past 4000 years). -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:17, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::: It seems that [[projection]] would be a likely technology behind a vision seen only by here. Why a 4,000 year old temple would be able to do that is nor more a mystery than why it would be able to insert a vision any other way. Further reflection shows this image to possibly be different from the image in the Temple of Athena, which was more holodeck like, and seen by all.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 13:47, 2 February 2007 (CST)

==Warning - possibly big spoiler below==
I was watching Final Five photo, when I noticed face similarity to one of main characters face. I made some photo mainpulating, and results is below.

[http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9007/finalfivespoilerzq0.png] <-- POSSIBLE HEAVY SPOILER

It gives me around 60-70% sure, that this char is one of Final Five. Yet there are two other things - first - it's possible, that director didn't thought of that, and put this actor there to "fill the gap".

Second - as I've searched through characteristic of this one, I haven't even found slight connections to Cylon, and it would mess with storyline pretty badly.

What do you think about that? --[[User:XLII|XLII]] 16:41, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Again, don't take that picture too literally. It did not actually appear in the episode after all, and they chose not to show the faces in detail at the end. We don't know if it was actually shot that way at all and just cut, or if they are just stand-ins for a test shot or something. In any case, since we don't see the five in the episode, we can't draw any conclusions --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:58, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Also remember how much Leoben likes mixing truth and lies... "Adama is a Cylon." [[User:Wynler|Wynler]] 11:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
::XLII your idea was a good one, but there's a flaw in your comparison. As you darken the image of the actor, that face overtakes the face of the Final Five. The jawlines match up, which makes it look like it's the same person, but watch the chin and the upper lip (and the 5 o'clock shadow) in pics 1&2 and 4&5. They're different. --[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 19:44, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Even if you forget for a moment that the people in the promo picture are just stand-ins Lee Adama is most defintly '''not''' a Cylon anyway we already worked that out. Because he is the son of someone else who is most definitly not a cylon and the Cylons are not copies of already existing people. See [[Humanoid Cylon speculation]] and [[Characters eliminated from suspicion]] --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])
::::Not to mention that Lee has his fat makeup on there. Even if the images matched up, it wouldn't be a true likeness of Lee/Jamie Bamber.--[[User:Pearse|Pearse]] 18:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)

What if the final five aren't cylons at all, but in fact are part of the priesthood. The whole question "what defines a Cylon" opened by the writers had me thinking... the final five aren't "final" they are the "first" five. They are neither Cylon, nor human and possibly are some related faction to the 13th tribe whom were left behind to fulfull and manipulate things behind the scenes. I do not like the idea of certain main characters being cylons and I believe that this will be the only way to mitigate that unplesant "revelation". I've been pushing hard on the crossroads' talk pages that the final five aren't necessarily cylons and that Tigh certainly is not. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 22:23, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:I agree with the idea that they are NOT Cylons but for different reasons. The first problem is the aging/immortality issue since it has been established that the current batch of cylons will live forever (as long as they are not boxed and are in range of a Ressurection Ship or the Cylon Homeworld). My thought is that the main characters who think they are cylons are NOT but rather descendants of the one or more copies of one or more of the models of the Final Five (thus fufulling RDM's promise of "bluring the line between Human and Cylon"). But we will soon see... [[User:Mishakal|Mishakal]] 22:30, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Agreed, I actually was trying to clarify that. I think the final five are actually priests, five priests who continue the tradition of prophecies. Remember, Tyrol's father was a priest AND his mom was an Oracle. HE found the Eye. And finally, and this bugs me, people seem to ignore or overlook the fact that the Cylon Biers had stepped into the Eye's chamber when it was meant for a HUMAN to. SHE saw the final five and had explained that she had made a mistake and apologized. Now... I assume those five priests are the "final five" so-called cylons. But why am I the only person who gets that the other seven models do not KNOW who or WHAT the final five truly are? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 23:02, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Final Five/Archive 1

2007-03-25T03:23:23Z

Baltarstar: /* Warning - possibly big spoiler below */

Talk:Boxing/Archive 1

2007-03-25T03:16:29Z

Baltarstar: Only done when in rebirthing chambers?

==Permanently?==
As far as I know this is just speculation, boxing a Cylon is not necessarily a permanent process, and in fact, recent interviews with cast have included information that boxing can actually be reverted. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:41, 27 November 2006 (CST)

:I agree, but the concept of getting yourself switched off with no definite time to ''be'' reverted sounds awfully permanent as well. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:55, 27 November 2006 (CST)

::True, but it's always a possibility, that you can be reactivated, someday.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 21:08, 27 November 2006 (CST)

==The same three?==

In the article it is mentioned that the same Three who threatened to box Caprica Six and in particular Sharon "Boomer" Valerii is the same one who now seems to be developing an affinity with humans. I don't think that is the same Three unit. More likely it is D'anna Biers, the Three unit who made the documentary in [[Final Cut]] is the one we have been seeing all season. I doubt the Three that Caprica Six brained with the concrete slab in the blown up Caprican parking garage in [[Downloaded]] would do such a "180" from her hatred of Humans that is only equaled by the Cavil model to not only tolerating them but taking one as her lover, namely Baltar. No, it makes more sense that it is D'anna Biers that we have been seeing since [[Occupation]]/[[Precipice]]. This is further bolstered by the fact that she dreamed of being shot by the Galactica's Marines at the "End of Line" corridor on Galactica. I think that was her remembering her death and subsequent resurrection. If everyone was wondering what happened to D'anna Biers, that was it. I can see her having such fondness and toleration of humans giving her uplifting documentary she made of the fleet and her respect and vialed gratitude to Dr. Cottle for treating the Five unit just like he would had a human on New Caprica. Her taking Baltar as her lover, even regarding him as not only a potential Cylon and a member of the Final Five but God Himself is more in line what D'anna Biers would do, not the hateful violent, shoot-humans-on-the-spot perfect mate for Cavil that was the Three in that garage on Caprica. One last justification: In the closing minute of [[The Eye of Jupiter]] one of the Cylons, I think Caprica Six, called the Three that took the Heavy Raptor down to the Algae planet with Baltar "D'Anna"; she had never done that before IIRC. Not conclusive I concede, but taken with my other aruments... [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 16:40, 20 December 2006 (CST)

== First Boxing ==
Down in act 4 RDM mentions definitively that Number Three's boxing is the first ever. I'm not sure if that's implied by the 11 models remaining bit, but I thought it was interesting. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:41, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:The first complete boxing or first for everything? Its not specified if any previous Cylons have been individually boxed as was threatened to Caprica-Six and Boomer on Caprica by a Three. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 08:03, 8 February 2007 (CST)
::Given that the procedure already existed and is used as a threat, I think that they have experience with boxing individual Cylons. But boxing an entire model line is a first. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:16, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::Well, yeah. Exactly. From the podcast:
:::"but then her entire model is eliminated in the first time that any of the Cylons had been eliminated as a model."
:::That really drove home (to me) that the final five aren't model lines that had already been boxed --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:28, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::It's [[Podcast:Rapture#firstboxing|right here]]. I also always assumed the final five had been boxed, so when I transcribed the podcast, it came as a surprise to me. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:02, 8 February 2007 (CST)

== Only done when in rebirthing chambers? ==

If boxing can happen at any point (and not just when a Cylon is being reborn), then guess what. The cylons can box Athena right frakking now. If they can, and have not... guess what, Athena must be kept alive or unboxed for further purposes. Oh writers, please clear this up. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 22:16, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-25T02:34:22Z

Baltarstar: /* Predictions-part 2 */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-24T02:04:53Z

Baltarstar: /* Predictions-part 2 */

Talk:Crossroads, Part I/Archive 1

2007-03-24T01:47:46Z

Baltarstar: /* Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. */

==Promo Pics==
Are [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a9064 here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:54, 27 February 2007 (CST)
: Tried to go there, but I get the following: Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /drewcypher/gallery/000a9064 on this server. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 08:09, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
::NBC cracked down on websites publishing the highres press photos.. They are still here: http://galacticastation.com/episodes/s3guide/318.htm --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

== Predictions ==

I was too busy drooling over my favorite [[Number Three|Suicide Girl]] to spend much time in front of the ol' crystal ball this week, but I got in a little bit of quality future-gazing at the last minute.
*[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Beau]] locks the Battlestar Wiki, causing widespread panic throughout the Fleet! Without the ability to edit, how are our remaining 41,000 citizens supposed to comment on the shocking accuracy of their beloved seer's predictions? Riots! Fire! Premarital sex! And that's all just the teaser! In the end, however, they will make due and will remember that editing a wiki isn't everything. :)
*Back in February, my crystal ball told me that the trial of Baltar would begin. Obviously, the ball had a little too much [[New Caprican loco weed|Fleet wheat]] and tossed me a prediction for this episode instead. Yep, blame it on others, that's me. The Admiral would be so disappointed.
*We've all seen Caprica and Tigh exchanging bruises in the preview for this episode. This will be the only Cylon-on-human violence we see in the entire episode, and probably in the rest of the season.
*Baltar publically reveals during his trial that Roslin's cancer was cured by Hera's blood and that Hera is half-Cylon. The Fleet goes nuts. Baltar also reveals the plot to steal the Presidency and how it was covered up after the election. I've got a feeling he'll also reveal some shady goings-on during the year on New Caprica that we haven't seen.
*As the trial goes on, Tigh and Zarek are in charge of the military and civilian branches of the Fleet, respectively. They've never been fans of each other and now they're going to lock horns like never before.
*At the end of the episode, the Fleet jumps to a new system. Something sparks a huge shouting match between Zarek and Tigh, during which Gaeta detects... something. I'm not sure what it is, but it's the last marker on the road to Earth. Unfortunately, the Cylons are already there. After reorganizing in the wake of boxing an entire model, the Cylon expeditionary fleet has actually gotten ahead of the Colonials in just a few jumps. Baltar's trial is interrupted by this event and the episode ends on a cliffhanger.
After nearly half a season without them, the Cylons return in a big way this episode. While I'd personally like Baltar's trial to remain as human as possible, I'm afraid you can't have a season finale without the Cylons making a grand appearance and leaving everything hanging in the balance. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:57, 16 March 2007 (CDT)

:(*snif*) No mention of Galvatron? Is he being left to rust somewhere in space by something more evil than he: ''lawyers?'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:44, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
::Starscream, obviously. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:54, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Sorry, guys. I thought Galvatron's presence would be obvious, keeping previous predictions in mind. He's in his new Pretender disguise: Romo Lampkin. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 23:58, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
:I'm looking forward to Cylon presence, we haven't seen any Cylons (save for Athena and Caprica-Six) since "Rapture". Or have we? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 14:49, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

Some thoughts:
Could the strange noises and/or music that Tigh, Anders, and Foster hear be early radio waves from Earth? Are they close enough (within 100 light years) that the earlier transmissions from 1900-present are reaching Galactica? We have been broadcasting radio waves into space for over 100 years. If this is in any way correct, the closer they get to Earth, the more recent the broadcast will be. Tigh says the sounds are coming from the ship... the only thing I can figure is if they indeed ARE radio waves, the ship would have to act as an antenna of some sort to pick up the signal. Just a guess, but to me the sounds were old, scratchy, and very much reminiscent of earlier radio transmission. This also does not explain why Tigh, Anders, and Foster are the only ones who hear it (unless they are 3 of the 5 cylons, of course complete with built-in AM/FM tuners). --[[User:Captain Finlay|Captain Finlay]] 15:27, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I'd go with the latter option, the ship (or something in the ship) acting as an antenna is not possible AFAIK. Tigh listening to Earth broadcasts is a nice idea, but I think such signals would be extremely weak, or at least too weak for Tigh's wireless. The episode does indeed suggest that Tigh, Anders and Foster have something in common, but it would be strange if that turns out to be Cylonness. Anders and Foster can very well be Cylons, but Tigh has a confirmed history going way back. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 10:34, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

==403 Error==
<s>I keep getting a 403 error when I try to look at the Crossroads Pt. 1 page.</s> <s>Never mind it's being cooperative now.</s> Or not. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:27, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

== When will this article be unlocked ? ==
I know the whole site has been unlocked, but this article appears to still be in lockdown mode. How long will we need to wait before permissions are restored?--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 15:24, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:[http://blog.battlestarwiki.org/?p=115 Thus spake Joe]:
:"Even after this, I expect the wiki to be slow and may even have to protect “Crossroads, Part I” from editing even after the site-wide lockdown."
:The day after an episode we've been getting hammered, and I suspect today is no exception. I expect that the traffic will die down enough such by tomorrow that Joe will unlock this page as well. If there's anything you feel needs to be added to the page while it is locked, you could add it here in the talk age (and copy & paste it later, or somebody else will), or create a subpage of your user page (or just a subsection of your user page) to store the thoughts/ideas/analysis/notes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:04, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::Performance is still extremely sluggish. It works as this very moment, but it's up and down all the time. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:24, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::Shane unlocked the article. I was honestly going to unlock it tomorrow morning, but I don't see how that would have really helped more not. At any rate, the article's unlocked. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:00, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

==Anders in Uniform==
Hey is Anders a pilot now cause they called him a nick name in the teaser --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 17:25, 19 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378
:No, they called him a [[nugget]], which is Colonial Fleet slang for a pilot trainee. But since you've mentioned that, does anyone have a screen grab of this for Anders' page?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:56, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

I know what a nugget is but you would think Anders would be a MArine considering his history in the Resistance --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 18:00, 21 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378

== Act 1 item ==

Since it's not editable, I'm posting here....

# Back on Galactica, in CIC, Admiral Adama orders a scan for any tracking devices that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated Caprica-Six for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.

# Lee Adama enters CIC near Roslin, who is collecting herself in the Weapons Control station. He notices a cup and decanter in CIC, ostensibly belonging to Col. Tigh and smells it. His expression suggests the presence of alcohol.

I rewatched this scene, because I got something different out of it. I think this should read:

# Back on Galactica, in CIC, Admiral Adama, Lee Adama, Col. Tigh, and President Rosline are discussing the baseships. Someone brings Roslin a decanter of tea? Admiral Adama orders a scan for any tracking devices that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated Caprica-Six for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.

# Roslin walk to the Weapons Control station to collect herself. Lee Adama notices the cup belonging to Roslin; sniffs it and detects chamalla.

I think that Lee is taking Romo's lesson's to heart from the last episode and connecting Roslin's erratic behavior with her chamalla tea. -- [[User:Disputin|Disputin]] 17:31, 19 March 2007

:Agreed. At first I thought it was Tigh's too, but later it's explained as how he made the connection to Roslin still taking chamalla. That it's sweetened with sugar to mask the taste is explained by the oracle on New Caprica. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:57, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

::I haven't listened to the podcast, but I suspect that the ambiguity was intentional. You're supposed to think it's Tigh's, and then realize that it was Roslin's all along. Not that Tigh drinking on duty ought to be anything of a revelation anyway. The man likes the sauce. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:25, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:::You can see Foster handing the can and cup to Roslin. It's not that obvious, and I missed it too at first, but it's clear that it's not Tigh's. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:32, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

==Opening==
Has anyone been able to find out why the opening title wasn't in the episode? --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 17:57, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
Also, if we really want a survivor count, we could use what that lawyer gave us as a number during the trial (even though it seems a bit too low). --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 18:02, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:No, because that's too old. It's also somewhat conflicting (see my comment on Survivor Count talk). That number has to refer to the ''civilian'' population directly after the escape. But that discussion is better for the SC article.
:From the podcast transcript:
:"In case you're wondering, no we did not forget to put the pre-cap on that says, "The Cylons Were Created By Man," etc. etc. Truth is we were pressed for time on these last two and we asked for special dispensation to do away with the pre-cap, as we call it, and also with the main title. So-to give us-in order to give us more time to tell the story and really play this for all it's worth."
:So there you have it. That's what I suspected happened. It sounds like they were really crunched for time on these last two episodes (considering the opening chop running a few minutes long next week). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::I disagree about the survivor count. I think the survivor count has always been and still refers to the number of humans known to exist and/or are independent of Cylon control regardless of military or Civilian status. That is the point, the survival of humanity, so the number after the escape refers to both civilian and military. Also, did anyone take into account the estimated 8,000 people killed when the ''Cloud Nine'' and surrounding too close ships blew up near the end of the episode Lay Down Your Burdens part II which of course happened after the episode survivor count was displayed? After the ''Cloud Nine'' blew we got the number of people who went down to New Caprica. The loss of the ''Clould Nine'' would skew the numbers [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:04, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:::''Cloud Nine'' is accounted for at [[Survivor Count]]. It's factored into the drop between "Lay Down Burdens, Part II" and the population of New Caprica City (plus those left in orbit). And you're right that generally it refers to ''all'' humans. The one at the start of the episode does anyways. But I see no other way to explain Cassidy's numbers. It's really a writing error. Even with that explanation it's inconsistent. I'll reword it a bit to clarify that's a writing error --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:18, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Is the Eight at the opening Sharon Agathon or Boomer or another Eight? Kind of appears that Park has an expression more accustomed to Boomer on her face, as well as wearing her hair as Boomer. [[User:Huh?|Huh?]] 06:26, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I think it must be [[Sharon Agathon]] (Athena) since she's [[Hera]]'s mother. --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 15:02, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::A comment made by RDM in the podcast indicated that there was a moment shot (but later cut) where they saw each other in the officer's head (the bathroom) and had a moment where they weren't QUITE ready yet to talk to each other about the fact that they'd had a dream with each other in it. It's in act 1 of the podcast transcript, if you're interested. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

==Refinery Ship==
Did anyone here Tivo the episode? In the scene on the refinery ship, I thought I saw Olmos in a cameo. He looked like he had the Gaff mustache from Blade Runner. Can anyone check this? --[[User:Whalepelt|Whalepelt]] 09:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I haven't checked it, but I doubt it. It's probably just cut footage from "Dirty Hands" or possible even copied from the aired version. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:14, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::I have a copy, and the bit with the scruffy mustachioed man is about 10:35 into the episode. It does look a little like Olmos, but it's hard to tell, and the eyes don't seem quite right. In any case, if he is a Cylon, he could've gone a little further with avoiding looking like his admiral counterpart. :) --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 00:43, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Yeah, I noticed it immediately when watching the scene. But I seriously doubt they that's really EJO. There is no reason for such a camo of a high-profile actor. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:50, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::::Unless, as Saforrest suggested, Adama is ... a Cylon! *cues Cylon theme* :D. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:22, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

== Disagreement on this point in the analysis ==

I took out this line from the analysis by Serenity. There a few points that I disagree with how this is worded:

"[[Racetrack]] continues her history of trying to escape at the first sign of danger ("[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", "[[Occupation]]", "[[Torn]]"). However this time, her Raptor is actually in immediate danger of being destroyed by the Cylons and jumps away at the last moment."

*This isn't the first time that Racetrack has escaped from imminent danger. In "[[Dirty Hands]]", she and her ECO barely escaped from the Raptor before it collided with Colonial One and probably exploded because of the impure tylium fuel.
*She was not running at the first sign of danger in "[[Occupation]]", they had reached their daily time limit on waiting for contact from New Caprica and yes had begun to pick up some Cylon activity. The last thing that they want is the Cylons to know that a Raptor is constantly waiting for a signal. She stayed long enough to send back the message to the resistance and then left to report the good news.
*In "[[Torn]]", we are not told that she and Athena immediately ran away once they saw the dying baseship. She was freaked out as any pilot would, but once they realized that the baseship and the other fighters were immobile, she had more of a expression of confusion than fear.
*In "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", it was the first time we were introduced to Racetrack. Her expression of fear I would think is natural as no human had ever been inside a new Cylon baseship. Considering that the nuke did not dislodged as planned and that Boomer went outside unexpectedly, it probably would freak out anyone.

Anyhows, we can put this line back in later, but I think it needs to be rewritten. I honestly don't think that this character trait is just to Racetrack alone. Boomer in the mini-series did the same thing once she and Helo realized that the Vipers were being destroyed. I would think any smart Raptor pilot would know when to bug out since their ship isn't the most fighter capable.--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 12:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

:-sigh- In how many places do you want to bring this up? I mentioned it on your talk page, because you have an issue with it and then you replied to it on mine. Now you discuss it here as well. That's completely unnecessary.
:People can think that she's a coward or that she's doing her job. It doesn't say anything either way. I agree that "Occupation" isn't really a good example as the time is merely up, but the others are not cases of her running away from ''immediate'' danger. Except for "Dirty Hands" which doesn't fall into this pattern and thus isn't even mentioned. You are the one bringing that into this. Let's just remove it, as your attempts at rewording just twisted into something wrong. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:54, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::In any event I agree with Life Star's issue of the (mis)characterization of Racetrack. In none of the incidents in which her personal bravery is questioned are an instance of cowardice. I don't know how can anyone get that looking at the scenes.She had a legit reason to get the hell out of Dodge in all of them, including and especially after getting the signal from NC after lurking in the nebula near the planet. The line "[[Racetrack]] continues her history of trying to escape at the first sign of danger.." implies cowardice. Implying a character is a coward when he/she really is not would not be reporting the facts accurately in this 'pedia. It has to be supported by the facts or at least logical argument like everything else.[[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:18, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

== Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. ==

It seems that the events in Episode "Six Degrees of Seperation" just dont matter anymore. I notice a lack of continuity with the events and their relevance in any further episodes with Baltar being potentially implicated in the initial genocide. Also, no one seems to acknowledge that Six looked like the same Six that was in that episode. Finally, the story arc of her dissappearing so quickly has never been explored. Somehow I had imagined these final two episodes might explain the plot holes (or dangling plot lines if you will) of that episode. Any thoughts? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 18:06, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:Could you explain that a bit more? I just rewatched Six Degrees (Hmm, anyone think that the title could be a reference to the Cylon?), and I don't see it contradicting this at all. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:43, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

::Well, Six interacted with Roslyn and Adama and pictures were shown implicating him. Although later those pictures were shown to be doctored up, what makes no sense is why the interaction has not been linked to any of the trial now. For example, no one seems to remember Six being there and everyone is remembering her for the first time being captured as "Caprica" and no mention of "Shelly Godfrey". Has Roslyn, Adama, or anyone else asked "Hey, aren't you the same Cylon we met a year ago who accused Baltar of giving access to the colonial defensive grid?". Anyway, so I just find that episode to be an orphan in this series. It's unique aspects not fitting in at all with the plot. I don't know what the comment about the title referring to Six is supposed to mean. Obviously we all all know it's referring to Six, I certainly see no reason to doubt that. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:31, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:I haven't seen any contradiction. As [[Cassidy]] said to [[Tory Foster]] at the beginning of this episode, they couldn't go after Baltar about his involvement with Six before the fall of the Colonies because they had no solid evidence, other than Roslin's claim. They went after him with what they had: his collaboration with the Cylons on New Caprica, which includes the signed execution order. Also, while Shelly Godfrey's "disappearing" at the end of "Six Degrees of Separation" isn't explained, it doesn't really have any bearing on the storyline whatsoever. (She more than likely spaced herself, thus killing herself and removing her body from the fleet, but that's utterly academic now.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:31, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

::Case in point. You're speaking of them "needing proof". I'm speaking of the storyline, not just the trial. Roslyn nor Adama are responding to the connection to the events in Six degrees. What about that photograph of Baltar in the defense mainframe? What about "Shelly Godfrey"? What about her interaction despite being obviously responsive to Baltar's own choices. And finally, the idea that she just "spaced" herself (whatever that means) is totally not working. You can't kill yourself and then remove your own body, let alone so quickly that you turn a corner with Marines hot on your trail and accomplish this feat. It's far from academic, it's a plot hole that I noticed when that episode first aired and I suspected that this episode would be ignored plotwise. Name one scene in season 2 or 3 where any evens in Six Degrees had any relevance. At the very least, when they were interrogating Baltar and they had him doped up... they never asked him about her. Why? Because that episode stretched the limits of credibility. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
*Shelly Godfrey appeared and disappeared with no explanation and no further event like this has happened again. Cylons have not been known to disappear (or space out as you call it). I can make a stretch that Baltar's "divine" abilities may be related to some greater plotline that simply has not been established. Maybe Baltar is one of the first five. But Shelly certainly is not Caprica Six. Shelly certainly did not "die". She was not resurrected on any basestar. Her interaction with Baltar does not carry over to any of the other sixes. No, She represents some greater unexplained phenomonon surrounding Baltar (or the episode was a plot orphan).
*Roslyn remembered vaguely seeing Baltar with Six, but oops, Shelly looks just like her. Roslyn never asks "Baltar, was the woman on board last year the same woman I saw you with? She accused you of being behind the destruction of the 12 colonies, now what happened to her, and how did she disappear"... something! Again, when Six Degrees ended, I had a feeling that they would just hope we all forgot about that episode.
*Adama wanted an investigation on how she dissappeared... what ever happeend with that?
* This site even tries to explain the plot-hole. From calling her a Cylon-Related Hallucination...which comes with doctored footage that computers can reverse analyze to dialogue which tends to line up with disjointed events...
*Godfrey will have to be explained again in the future. I believe she should be explained when (or if) Baltar ever confronts Caprica-Six. I also believe that Dr. Amorak's demise or something about the Olympic Carrier may also need to be clarified to fill in this growing by the episode plot-hole! --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:48, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

::: When I say "spaced", I mean she threw herself out into space (more specifically, she probably found an airlock on ''Galactica'', jumped into it, and vented herself out into space). It's not the magical phenomenon you believe it to be, apparently... And I'm gonna have a chill run down my back when I say this, but it's spelled [[Laura Roslin]] not Laura Roslyn. ::cringe:: -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 05:28, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:::: Yes Godfrey "spacing" herself .i.e ejecting herself out of an airlock voluntarily (as opposed to Leoben ejected out by Roslin and Athena almost being so) is the most logical explanation as to why they never found her. As to we not seeing her resurrected anywhere if you accept that most likely she walked out of an airlock she was resurrected since at the time (as it is now) the Cylon Fleet was tracking the RTF and their resurrection ships were close. We did not see Leoben resurrect anywhere either, but we know from soken references, most recently when Caprica Six told Roslin when she was first captured in the deleted scene, he did resurrect. So while admittedly we have no hard or testimonial evidence as to her disappearance and resurrection, it can be safely assumed that since she hasn't been seen in the fleet for almost two years, especially after the occupation of New Caprica when the seven known Cylons blew their cover so to speak, Shelly Godfrey spaced herself and was resurrected elsewhere. Also, we haven't heard any references to D'anna Biers either (although D'anna judging from the dream/vision she had was killed by Marines on Galactica.) so Shelly Godfrey isn't the only Cylon that infiltrated the fleet that they haven't talked about. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:43, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

*It's been awhile since I've seen this episode but if I recall most of the episode was shot from Baltar's perspective. Basiclly, this episode seems to be partially based on showing that virtual six (or Baltar by proxy of virtual six) has some divine or super-natural abilities, possibly as a lead in to "The Hand of God" and "Home, Part II". Also, the way this episode was shot, it's possible that the entire event was a delusion brought on by the virtual six(whoever or whatever she may be) to scare Baltar into compliance and to convince him that she has super-natural abilities. The complete lack of referrence to these events by other characters would only support this theory(as they would have no recollection of these events since they didn't happen,) as does the last thing said by virtual six when Baltar asks about Shelly "Was she even here?". Virtual Six's motives for doing this would be to show Baltar that he's dealing with more than just a random delusion or a chip in his brain, and to scare him into doing what she wants or fear exposure. If she has complete control over Baltar's consciousness then there would be no reason whatsoever to include the other characters when she could simply cause a delusion within Baltar's head. Many of the events appear to be impossible in the real world. For example Shelly appears allmost immediatly after Baltar angers Virtual Six with his disbelief in her divine connection. Virtual Six would have to have knowledge Baltar was about to call her on her "abilities" making her precognizant since it's likely even Baltar didn't know he was going to snap at her at that moment, yet Shelly's appearence is timed perfectly to the minute. Also the allmost Dues Ex Machina way Baltar is redeemed is perfectly timed with his confession to Virtual Six and occurs due to Gaeta acting seemingly independent of Virtual Six's control. In short Virtual Six either has to be Omnipotent or at least precognizant to pull this off in the real world (unlikely given her later reaction in regards to Hera's "death".) Also even if she could attempt these actions in the real world they would be less effective than simply causing a hallucination, especially since she is attempting to impart a feeling that she has complete control of the world and an ability to manipulate other people (something that's at least probably proven not true by her seeming unaware of Roslin's hiding of Hera, and her anger at Baltar for failing to protect her.) --[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 11:42, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
*Possible alternative. For this alternative we'll assume that Virtual Six is what she claims to be, a divine being serving an omnipotent Being. When you include an onimpotent God in the equation all of a sudden you can throw the physics rule book out the airlock. The issues with Shelly's past and disappearence are now moot as Shelly was most likely also an angel of God having taken human form for this appearence. Likewise all the other improbable events and perfect timings are explained(thats what God wanted therefore thats what happened "Let There Be Framing"). Another required assumption is that God either is incapable or unwilling to affect the free will of humans (and possibly cylons) directly but has no qualms with influencing them. The purpose behind this charade remains the same as my earlier theory(to scare Baltar into compliance.) That being said Shelly's resemblence to a Six could simply be an extra tack on the board to scare or confuse Baltar. Likewise this resemblence is something that may only be evident to Baltar (ie. the other characters see her as a different person with no resemblence to a Six.) It is possible that it is part of Gods overall plan that the humans never believe that the cylons were behind the attempt to frame Baltar. There is no evidence that God wanted the humans to think that cylons attempted this frame and it is possible that God specifically did not want that. That would explain the lack of this information during Baltar's trial. The evidence is proven false. Why would Roslin and Adama want evidence that proves Baltar was FRAMED for treason surfacing during a trial where THEY charged him with treason, it would SUPPORT Baltar's case.
--[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 11:42, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:Whoa! Slow down, cowboy! I'm happy that you have many ideas, JonesJ3599, but keep in mind that [[BW:NOT|this isn't a chat forum]]; it's hard to read and long blocks of text will dilute your point. I'll try to parse what points you have.

:One thing to read is the article on [[virtual beings]], specifically on the points we have gleaned from aired content about virtual Six and Baltar. We still don't know what they really are, if they are delusions or angels, but the fact that two real beings have imaginary friends floating with them means a lot. The virtual beings aren't copies of the actual ones; their personalities are more militant versions. Shelley was just another Six; her appearance and disappearance is coincidental to virtual Six's actions (as far as we can tell). The fact that the virtual beings have insight and knowledge that often seems to match and exceed that of its host is obvious. When virtual Baltar showed up, however, we can't now assume that virtual Six is a Cylon plot; Caprica-Six was (and is) very confused about her vBaltar. For now, what they are and who they tap into is a mystery. Keep in mind as you read up that Battlestar Wiki enjoys plausible speculation [[BW:FANW|ONLY if it has an official reference from the show]]. Personal theories aren't good here, although you can always ask about the plausibilities of something you noted (briefly) here on a talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:23, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

I will try to briefly address these responses. Also, the reason why is because I really believe this episode deserves better treatment in the whole story arc than it has been treated. Secondly, the reasons and responses I have read simply do not meet a comforting sense of credibility. It's like the third matrix movie... it just didn't work with the first two. :)

* Overall, Baltar's perspective was not solely how the episode was shot. Especially the part that is most pertinent. When Adama called the marines to track her, and Tigh reported that she dissappeared around a corner. Baltar was not present. Adama flipped out "FIND HER!" he shouted!

* There is no way she could have ejected herself into space without causing some decompression damage or alarm or at the very least attracting the attention of some monitoring system.(This is where credibility and plot holes come to play). If the goal was just to say she ejected to space... well, that would have been the more sensible way by showing it. For her to "dissappear" implies that they want us to think there is more to her than just moving at the speed of light, unlocking an airlock, floating out in space and somehow doing all of this in one second. No, that's called a plot hole. The writers do not intend on us thinking she ejected herself and I reject that entirely. She turned a corner with Marines right behind her. She was being watched closely. She didn't have time to open an airlock, eject, then CLOSE it. Who closed the airlock then... from the inside? One of the Marines?

* Shelly is a projection of Baltar's (and his virtual Six's) consciousness, or related to it. She was not working in tandem with the Cylons. If she was, it's a coiencidence (or providence) that she came by and did what she did. I could acknowledge that she worked ignorantly of Baltar's own virtual six... sort of how Baltar chose the right place to attack in "Hand of God", or how Virtual Six predicted that there would be a new cylon-hybrid child born at the end of Season 1. But you can't have Shelly be both in league with the Cylons and also working consciously as an extension of Baltar's conscioiusness.

* JonesJ correctly points out, Gaeta acts independant of a hallucination, or any control of Virtual Six. So either Virtual Six is either of another "faction" (not cylon, not human) or Baltar is unconsciously creating these circumstances. Which leads me to this point:

Six Degrees would be a great episode to introduce the omniscence of the "final five". But more importantly is that we need to get more clarity that the Virtual beings are neither on the cylon nor the human side. And guess what, the final five... I am more and more convinced are behind this, and the final five are not cylons. So what if the other cylons think they are. To say Shelly is just another Six is not sufficient. She does not work in the frame of the cylon power structure. She came, wasted some time and left. You all gotta admit, if we took that episode out... because it has not been really canonized in further episodes... nothing would be missing. Nothing would be lo
st continuity wise. But I'm appealing that that episode be given more attention than it has. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 19:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Oh and what does this have to do with this episode? Baltar is being revered as a god with godlike powers. Shelly is forgotten in the whole trial. Shelly is a good, very good link between Virtual Six and Caprica. Remember, Virtual Six is Baltar's projection of Caprica Six, and Shelly is an extension of Virtual Six. And now only a select few are hearing strange but interesting noises on the ship.. and Caprica leads them on a goose chase... just like Shelly did! Yes, I'm speculating, but it is much more intriguing than "SHelly spaced herself and closed the door on the way out". --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 19:36, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

: I follow Occam's Razor on this. Simply put, she probably evaded the marines (not a hard thing to do, seeing as they are [[Resistance (episode)|virtually incompetent]] when the story suits it), utilizing her knowledge of the battlestar, then (utilizing her knowledge of computers) overrides any alarms and jettisons herself to space.

:: I don't think you read my points above. You can't jettison yourself into space, and then close the door behind you. The Marines, even if they were as incompetent as Brownies couldn't be so dullwitted as to miss an airlock opening 2 seconds. Sorry, I do not buy it. Someone would have noticed a draft. Occam's razor requires at the very least for the explanation to work. The theory has to be complete and credible, not just simpler. Which one of the dumb marines who were right behind her as she "turned a corner" (not "went through an airlock") closed the airlock door behind her? And keep in mind, two seconds is not enough time for any of this you explain to work. Decompression alone refutes this. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:47, 23 March 2007 (CDT)

: The ultimate point of the episode in question is to discredit any claims of Baltar's collusion with the Cylons prior to the fall of the colonies, thus only further strengthening the Fleet's trust in Baltar. That's it. Anything else is over-rated fanwanking. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:52, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

::But this episode is (or should be) crucial to NOW determining where Baltar's credibility will go, and how Six's and Virutal Six really interact with him. This episode has been swept under the rug.--[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:47, 23 March 2007 (CDT)

* Good points, I agree that Shelly is most likely not a cylon. As for what this has to do with this episode, the entire fact that Shelly has been "Forgotten" is what makes this so strange. I mean someone attempted to frame Baltar for treason. Thats HUGE evidence for someone trying to defend Baltar from the same charge. However, I still feel the only explanation (other than omnipotence of VSix) is to call the ENTIRE "Six Degrees" episode an hallucination of Baltar. The fact that an attempted framing of Baltar by a "Six" is NEVER brought up later in the series seems good proof of this. Also as I pointed out having proof of an attempted framing of himself would be a MAJOR boon to Baltar's defense. So why hasn't Baltar brought it up? VSix would sub-conciously influence Baltar to not even realize the connection, as it would expose Six's subterfuge having the other characters telling Baltar that the event never happened . In addition the entire episode is too "perfect" for VSix there are far too many variables for even a precognizant to pull off this perfectly. As for the parts of the episode that Baltar could not see it's possible that Six caused him hallucinated those and Baltar was in such an unstable emotional condition and never thought how he was seeing the events. Keep in mind that Baltar is and has been since the attack in a VERY fragile mental position. Many things that a rationale person would notice and question (such as how he saw things he shouldn't have, and not realizing the connection between the attempted frame and his defense) Baltar will simply miss. I understand this is extremely iffy however I can't think of any other possiblities that explain the seeming vow of silence eveyrone has taken on the subject. {{unsigned|Jonesj3599|21:01, 22 March 2007}}

: RIGHT! See Jonesj gets it. Somehow, someway they dropped the ball on this episode and we are sitting here trying to make the episode fit like a square peg in a round hole. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:47, 23 March 2007 (CDT)

: Shelly is ultimately inconsequential, since she was not involved at New Caprica. Again, Baltar is being tried for what they can prove -- which is his involvement with the Cylon occupying force on New Caprica. Bringing up Shelly would be the equivalent of showing us [[w:Chekhov's gun|Chekhov's gun]] and not firing it by act 3, since all she did was to discredit those who may have known about [[Amorak]]'s evidence about a "traitor in their midst". -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:27, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:: Read what I said you're right that Shelly is inconsequential to the PROSECUTION but it is NOT inconsequential to the DEFENSE. Also the standard of evidence is much slacker for a defense (that's based on our legal system but then colonial law seem similar.) Showing this evidence could point to a conspiracy within the fleet against Baltar (whether thats true or not doesn't matter.) The point is it would be a viable tactic for the defense to persue, and an important tatic as well. --[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 20:52, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:I disagree, and this is where the point is. Shelly is the link between Virtual Six and Caprica Six. I'm not merely interested in the trial, I am more interested in the possibility that the final five are another faction, (likely some human prophets who actually controlled the Cylons to instigate the first war). Remember, the Oracles interact on a "spiritual" level with the Cylons. Proof: An Oracle gave prophecy to Biers. That prophecy lead to and foretold her boxing. My comments on this are actually being vindicated by the new "Who is a cylon" page that came up. Sorry I'm too lazy to link it. I'll end my comments about this here and carry it on to the Talk:Crossroads Part 2 section, because it's very relevant. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 20:47, 23 March 2007 (CDT)

== Tory's Lack of Sleep and "the look" ==
The following excerpt from the podcast transcript not only helps explain Tory and Anders' sleep troubles, but also the weird look she gives him when he's all cuddly with Seelix:
"Y'know notice how frazzled Tory is starting to look here. There was more of an awareness actually in the follow up scene that's coming-that there was a line that was dropped where Laura essentially confro-where she confronts Tory in the scene coming up in th quarters she out-she tells Tory pretty directly, she knows she's sleeping with Anders at that point. Because that that secret was out in the fleet. And Laura was saying, "Y'know your spending more time with Mr. Anders." And Tory kind of blanches. And Laura says, "Y'know that won't, his wife was a hero to a lot of people in this fleet and this isn't looking good and what the F*#$ are you thinking.""

So apparently there's more soap opera action going on than they had time to give coverage to? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:20, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:The little over-talkative birds that haunt my online dreams appear to concur with your assessment, but I'll wait for the Truth. It's Out There. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

::I'm sure if anything is to come of it we'll see it Sunday. It just helped make sense for me of the WTF moment for me when Tory gave Anders that look. The lack of sleep I attributed to the orbital mind control lasers (or whatever that radio stuff is), but the look was just odd. If it helps, RDM's podcast was my only source on the matter, as I generally avoid online birds (especially near the finale) due to their tendency to sing spoilers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:16, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-24T00:08:15Z

Baltarstar: /* Predictions-part 2 */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-23T01:23:15Z

Baltarstar: /* Predictions-part 2 */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-23T01:10:14Z

Baltarstar: /* Predictions-part 2 */

Talk:Crossroads, Part II/Archive1

2007-03-23T00:58:42Z

Baltarstar: /* Predictions-part 2 */

Crossroads, Part I

2007-03-23T00:38:55Z

Baltarstar: /* Notes */

{{Episode Data
| title= Crossroads, Part I
| image= 3x19-CrossroadsPartI-TrialJudges.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 19
| guests=
| writer= [[Michael Taylor]]
| story=
| director= [[Michael Rymer]]
| production= 319
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-04-18
| UK airdate=
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== Overview ==
:''Baltar's trial commences, with the prosecution presenting evidence of treason committed on New Caprica amid controversial testimonies from Colonel Tigh and President Roslin.''

== Summary ==
===Teaser===
*[[Laura Roslin]], significantly different in dress and hairstyle, is walking through what appears to be the [[Opera House]]. She searches for and finds little [[Hera Agathon]] walking through the hallways, unable to reach her.
*Also following Hera is her mother [[Sharon Agathon]], who does not appear pleased to see Roslin in pursuit. Both women run down the stairs towards Hera.
*As they turn the corner, a [[Number Six]] in white clothing catches Hera and starts a movement as if to turn. There is a dark figure in the indistinct shadows behind her.
*Roslin wakes up. This has been a dream, though it bears a strong resemblance to Roslin's [[Chamalla|Chamalla extract]] induced visions of the past.
*The [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] is en route to the [[Ionian nebula]], but it is still several days away.
*Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] is trying to tune into [[Talk Wireless]] or music in [[Joe's bar]]. [[Brendan Costanza]], [[Diana Seelix]] and [[Samuel Anders]] are playing [[Pyramid (RDM)|Pyramid]]. Anders notes Tigh's attempts to find the music.
*[[Tory Foster]] speaks with [[Cassidy]], the prosecuting attorney in [[Gaius Baltar]]'s trial. Foster's assertion that [[Epiphanies|Roslin witnessed Baltar and a Six on Caprica]] doesn't convince Cassidy, who stresses the need for hard evidence and the fact that Baltar is only being tried for the charges that can be proved.
*Meanwhile, in the brig, Baltar is visited by a member of the press, who wants to give him a picture of her son, who she claims is sick—she also claims, much to Baltar's bemusement, that Baltar is capable of saving her son by Baltar's simply blessing him. He refuses until she forces it onto him before the [[Colonial Marine Corps|marine]]s remove her.
*The [[Virtual beings|virtual Six]] appears to console the emotionally tortured Baltar, noting that 30 to 40 people have written him letters.

===Act 1===
*[[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]] and [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]] are conducting reconnaissance to see if any Cylons are following the Fleet's jumps. Her [[Raptor]] hides behind an asteroid as they play [[Triad (RDM)|cards]] and wait.
*The trial begins. Cassidy asks the courtroom how loss is measured.
*She notes the number of people who settled on New Caprica, the number who escaped in the [[Second Exodus]] and the number lost: 5,197 left behind, killed or otherwise missing.
*The attorney claims that the trust put in Baltar was gravely misplaced, and that the ultimate price must be paid.
*[[Romo Lampkin]], Baltar's attorney, immediately asks to change the plea to guilty as a ploy to use reverse psychology to claim that the power of [[w:Mob rule|mob rule]] is trying to sway opinion in the court.
*Lampkin claims that President Roslin is seeking vengeance on Baltar for [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|her lost election]], and claims that the [[New Caprica]]ns were victims of a hopeless battle. Baltar's decision to surrender to the Cylons had saved lives, he claims, versus what Lampkin claims Roslin would have done -- stand and fight.
*Back on Racetrack's Raptor, five [[Basestar (RDM)|baseships]] suddenly appear and attack. Racetrack's [[FTL]] drive barely comes online in time to allow them to escape an incoming missile.
*Back on ''[[Galactica]]'', in [[CIC]], Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] orders a scan for any [[Cylon transponder|tracking devices]] that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. At the same time [[Tory Foster]] hands Roslin a cup and a thermos can. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated [[Caprica-Six]] for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.
*[[Lee Adama]] enters CIC near Roslin, who is collecting herself in the Weapons Control station. He notices Roslin's cup, which she left on the table, and smells it, detecting something unexpected.
*Caprica-Six is questioned. She suggests that the [[Daru Mozu|fuel ship]] is being tracked by a unique radiation signature emitted by the ship. The [[Virtual beings|virtual Baltar]] appears and convinces her not to cooperate further. Caprica Six retaliates to Tigh's interrogation by recalling [[Ellen Tigh]], inciting Tigh to strike her, and Six to strike back before [[Marine]]s intervene and shackle the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]].

===Act 2===
*In court, Tigh is questioned, and asked if Baltar appeared to help the [[New Caprica Resistance|resistance]] in any way. Tigh is noticeably drunk. When questioned about Ellen, Tigh acknowledges her involvement but becomes more withdrawn.
*Lampkin cross-examines about the [[NCP]] [[Precipice|initiation bombing]] and how the resistance attempted to target Baltar. Lampkin continues to question about Ellen Tigh's [[Exodus, Part I|collaboration]] by asking Colonel Tigh if his wife was a collaborator, muddying the differences between Ellen Tigh and Baltar. Lampkin points out that Tigh appears drunk. Matters turn to the worst when Tigh begins to hear the music.
*Tigh is asked the nature of Ellen's death, and Tigh resolutely answers, claiming that Baltar's inaction made him kill his wife. He reflects a portion of his wife's [[Exodus, Part II|last words]] to tell how he would do anything to have Baltar killed. Tigh begins to show increasingly signs of anger as the music in his head continues to increase in volume.
*In Joe's Bar, Anders turns a eye to strange noises from the bar's public wireless and shares a look with Foster.
*Under testimony, Roslin notes the execution of 200 people under Cylon tyranny.
*Lampkin attempts to get Lee Adama to give some insight about Roslin's testimony and Roslin herself, instead of being a passive observer who is simply satisfied in embittering his father.
*Lampkin attempts to play to Lee Adama's sense of justice by putting him between two difficult decisions. One being the betrayal of Roslin and his father, or putting his words about justice into action by sharing the personal information with Lampkin.

===Act 3===
*Admiral Adama drags the drunken Tigh to his quarters. The Fleet is nine jumps away from the nebula, and repairs are being made to the fuel ship to keep it from being tracked.
*Tigh says that he can't "smell her anymore" and apologizes for his actions in court. Adama replies that, as his [[Scattered|oldest friend]], he could never embarrass him.
*In the admiral's quarters, Major Adama suggests the idea of sending the fuel ship on a different course to throw off the Cylons temporarily, and the admiral coldly takes it under advisement.
*The two Adamas verbally spar. Admiral Adama angrily accuses his son of helping Lampkin by telling him about what Tigh did to Ellen.
*In response, Major Adama resigns from military duty, while his father accepts the resignation in anger.
*The mood is tense in court when, instead of Lampkin, Lee Adama asks to address the court.
*Lee Adama (in civilian dress) questions President Roslin, but asks if it was Baltar that [[Epiphanies|saved her from cancer]]. When Admiral Adama objects, Lampkin asks for hostile witness latitude, which is given.
*Roslin tells how the cancer was cured. When asked what medications she was currently taking, she says "I don't remember." Asked specifically about [[chamalla]] use, and if she has had hallucinations recently, Roslin counters in the affirmative but notes how it [[Home, Part II|provided the first clues to Earth]] as well as noting Lee Adama's own involvement.
*Before Lee Adama asks his next question, Roslin whispers to him: "Don't do this." He then asks if she was taking chamalla again.
*Admiral Adama tries to overrule the line of questioning but other tribunal judges overrule him, forcing Roslin to answer. She recalls [[Miniseries, Night 1|her fondness for Lee Adama's early leadership]], how calling him "Captain Apollo" way back then had a nice ring to it, but how sad she was at how his behavior has changed.
*Adama notes that chamalla can be sweetened to mask its bitter taste, recalling the cup of tea that Tory gave Roslin at ''Galactica'''s CIC, which gave him the clue to her use of the drug.
*Roslin confirms that she is taking chamalla again. She then challenges counselor Adama to finished what he had started with his last question. When he asks her why was taking the drug again, she tells the court that she is taking the drug again because her cancer has returned.

===Act 4===
*[[Anastasia Dualla]] packs her bags and leaves her husband in disgust over his questioning of Roslin and his usage of the justice system she believes should be dismantled and rebuilt to make it work again.
*On ''[[Colonial One]]'', reporters pepper President Roslin about her cancer, how it will be treated, and if she planned on using Hera Agathon's blood again. The line of questioning infuriates Foster, but Roslin asks her to leave the press conference. When [[Karen Fallbrook]] asks how long the President has to live, an unflinching Roslin repeats the same question at the reporter, leaving Fallbrook speechless.
*After the press conference, Roslin angrily criticizes her aide, complaining that Foster is off her game. Foster claims that she hasn't been sleeping well.
*In his quarters, the drunken Tigh still hears the mysterious music and tries to track its source.
*[[Helo]] arrives in CIC as interim [[Executive officer]] and finds Lt. [[Felix Gaeta|Gaeta]], who briefs him. The [[tylium]] fuel ship decoy plan is nearing completion, but there are no further reports of Cylon forces. Three jumps from the nebula.
*Helo remembers a certain smell in the air when trouble was brewing, recalling the weather on Caprica. He believes "something over the horizon" is coming, something that doesn't bode well for the Fleet. "A storm is coming," he says.
*The music that Tigh, Anders, and Foster are hearing appears to be coming from the ship itself.

===Bonus Scene===

* Lee Adama asks Lampkin, "You know he's guilty, right?". Lampkin appeals to Adama's sense of justice, stating that everyone is guilty of something and there is a difference between guilt and criminality.

== Questions ==

* Did Tigh continue drinking all the time, or did he stop for a while after he seemingly pulled himself together again?
* Why does Anders pursue being a pilot?
* Is there a budding romance developing between Anders and Seelix?
* What is the mysterious music and where is it coming from?
* Why are Tigh, Anders, and Foster apparently the only ones who can hear the ever-increasing music?
* Does Foster actually hear the music?
* Is the music's loudness and clarity increasing because the Fleet is approaching the Ionian nebula?
* Is Roslin back on using chamalla extract because of prescription from Cottle or is she attempting to receive visions of the future again?
* Did Athena or Caprica-Six receive the same vision that Roslin found herself in during the teaser of the episode?
* Who is the shadowy figure behind the Six in Roslin's vision?
* Would Athena and Helo be willing to donate some of Hera's blood to save Roslin from her cancer?
* Barring any effective treatment, how long does Roslin have to live?
* Would Hera's blood have any effect on the cancer now since the cancer has apparently resisted Hera's innate immunology?
* With Helo temporarily assigned as XO, who has replaced him as CAG? Or is he temporarily holding down both posts?
* Why does Roslin look so different in her dream?
* Will Baltar take the stand?
* Where is Zarek in the midst of the trial proceedings?
* How is Caprica's virtual Baltar aware of the details of Saul and Ellen Tigh's relationship and Ellen's death?
* Why has Adama waited so long to order a sweep of tracking devices throughout the Fleet?

== Analysis ==

* [[Samuel Anders]] wears a uniform with rank insignia and hangs around with Seelix and Costanza. Together with being addressed as "you [[nugget]]s", this indicates that he joined the pilot training program.
* The Cylons have apparently been tracking the fleet since the destruction of the Temple of Five. Their strategy was to delay jumping into any system that the Fleet has been until after six plus hours to ensure that the Fleet would not realize that they were being tracked.
* Adama's military experience comes into play again when he orders that the decoy Raptor stay for a total of 12 hours. This is reminiscent of his previous strategies such as the decision to attack the Cylon tylium factory in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]." When he changes the regular pattern and stays longer than the Cylons had expected, he finally caught them in the act.
* Lee Adama immediately displays signs of fear once Roslin challenges him to "finished what you(he) started" after asking her if she is taking chamalla again. This indicates that either he suspected that Roslin's cancer has returned or he was beginning to feel that his actions are treacherous.
* Helo's comment to Gaeta about a "'storm is coming'" highlights Adama's comment to him at the end of "[[The Woman King]]", specifically to how Helo has been many times the voice in the wilderness. His ability to sense or remember certain details hails back to the final scene in "[[Rapture]]" when he remembers that Thrace had painted the picture of the mandala. It's also similar to his wife predicting that "Something dark is coming" in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]".
* Lampkin's opening statement is another prime example of his rhetorical skill. He uses reverse psychology to goad the mob to respond and eventually lead one man in the audience to state his desire to see Baltar die. This display of emotion played in Lampkin's favor as it would make the judges wary of giving into the mob mentality. Secondly, he cleverly paints Roslin as a fanatic by proposing that had Roslin been president when the Cylons invaded New Caprica, the entire human race would have been exterminated. However, as [[Precipice|Zarek has stated to Roslin]], if she had been President, the settlement and eventual invasion of New Caprica would have never taken place.
* It appears the closer the Fleet is to the nebula, Tigh, Anders, and Foster hear the music increasingly, even, at least in the case of Foster, to the point of exhaustion.
* Tory Foster appears to be losing it to some extent based on her declining grooming and snappish attitude toward the reporters. Roslin tells her she can be replaced by someone that can handle the pressure and at least run a comb through their hair once a week.
* There is a growing movement in the Fleet that believes Baltar has some sort of healing or divine abilities. His internal-Six doesn't allow him to brush off these devoted followers aside, indicating that his belief about himself that he is the "Chosen One" is coming true.
* Lee Adama's actions towards his father and Roslin have led to another impasse between himself and Dualla. Lee Adama has come to a point where he has been alienated from his father, from Roslin, and his wife, in an attempt to gain some sort of respect from Lampkin and to act in accordance with his noble conceptions of justice by following in his grandfather's footsteps.
* Lee Adama's words to the pilots in "[[A Day in the Life]]" come back to haunt Racetrack when the Cylons jump on top of her Raptor right after the end of a card game. The ship's systems apparently had been powered down as Racetrack can't even maneuver or evade the missile to give the FTL drive a few more moments to spin up.
* Baltar is only being tried for crimes that the prosecution believes can be proven. He is therefore not being tried for the genocide of humanity that occurred during the [[Miniseries]]. Although the show's audience knows his involvement, none of the primary characters in the series who give testimony have to date any hard evidence of his complicity, beyond Laura Roslin's hallucination whilst dying of cancer in "[[Epiphanies]]". This is acknowledged before, when she tries to challenge Baltar about the settlement of New Caprica. She tells him that she saw him together with Six, but knows that she has no concrete evidence ([[Lay Down Your Burdens]]).
* [[Cassidy]]'s numbers for the surviving human population are contradictory. It seems that the number the writers arrived at for the surviving humans only refers to the ''civilian'' population of the Fleet, excluding the military personnel. The regular survivor count in "[[Collaborators]]" is higher. The second confusion stems from her saying "the sum total of survivors [...] who settled on New Caprica". This clearly means only the people down on the planet. However her number of 44,035 also includes the ''total'' population left in orbit, both military and civilian. This writing error makes her statement that 5,197 people were lost entirely inaccurate, but aside from that the numbers fit with what has been established before (see: [[Survivor Count]]):
**41,435 (Collaborators) - 38,838 = 2,597 (the military personnel in the Fleet)
**44,035 - 39,192 (the inhabitants of [[New Caprica City]]) = 4,835 (the total population in orbit)
**4,835 - 2,597 = 2,238 (Lee Adama refers to roughly 2,000 civilians who escaped New Caprica in "[[Precipice]]")
**49,550 (count in "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]") - 39,192 - 4,835 (total population in orbit) = 5,523 (the death toll prior to the occupation, mostly incurred with the destruction of ''Cloud Nine'')
**49,550 - 5,523 - 41,435 = 2,592 (the causalities of the Cylon occupation and the escape from New Caprica)

== Notes ==

*The episode has one of the most sparse musical score yet. The only major pieces are during Roslin's dream at the beginning and the music Tigh keeps hearing. According to a [http://bearmccreary.com/html/blog/blogmain.htm blog entry] by composer [[Bear McCreary]], director [[Michael Rymer]] and the editors decided not to use any music during the court room part, in order to let the scenes speak for themselves.
*It's the first episode without an intro sequence, thus increasing the effective running time a little bit. Because of that, no updated [[Survivor Count]] is available.
*The bitterness of chamalla and that it can be sweetened to make it taste better, is first mentioned by the oracle [[Dodona Selloi]] in "[[Exodus, Part I]]".
*One of the shots of others listening to the trial on the [[wireless]] shows the [[refinery ship]] from "[[Dirty Hands]]".
*A storm is often used as a metaphor for a battle, conflict, or massive upheaval in science fiction. Helo's final line in this episode is almost an exact duplicate of the ending of the movie ''[[w:The Terminator|The Terminator]]'', and a huge storm (a sandstorm) takes place during the climax of the novel ''[[w:Dune (novel)|Dune]]'', and very similar to the warning issued by the prophetess in "The Stand".

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

Apollo - "I refuse to serve under someone that questions my integrity"

Admiral Adama - "And I refuse to have an officer serve under me that has none"

== Official Statements ==
Notes from the podcast:

* The opening teaser is indeed set in the Kobol Opera House that has been seen numerous times. This particular scene in the teaser was a late addition as the director and producers wanted to create a foreboding atmosphere to the episode. This was influenced by the fact that the studio executives were not favorable to the idea of ending the season with Baltar's trial.

* RDM goes more into the original trial storyline that involved the Saggitarons and Baltar. In summary, during their time on New Caprica, the food supply had been contaminated and a famine had fallen on most of the colonists, except the Saggitarons, who had been very careful with their harvests and supplies. This alienation between the Saggitarons and the rest of the colonies came to a collision when Baltar was attempting to have the Saggitaron leadership share their food with the other colonists. Unfortunately, Baltar is forced to kill one of the leaders, and thus began the riots and slaughter directed towards the Saggitarons. This killing was to be eventually revealed that it was a necessity instead of an act of genocide.

* Another component of the original storyline was to have Lee Adama be Baltar's only attorney and Lee's morals come into play when he obtains a video recording of Baltar actually shooting the Saggitaron leader. The cliff hanger of the episode was suppose to leave the audience wondering what will Lee do now that he believes Baltar is guilty.

* Over time, RDM and the director agreed that this storyline involved too many plot elements that the audience had never witnessed about Baltar. Once the decision was made, RDM completely revised the whole trial and rewrote the episodes.

* RDM hints that Athena and Roslin did indeed see each other during the dream sequence. A deleted scene had Roslin in the the restroom attempting to cool her head down while Athena comes out from one of the stalls. They looked at each other briefly in a silent acknowledgment that they did see each other in the dream.

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Michael Hogan]] as [[Saul Tigh]]
*[[Aaron Douglas]] as [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Alessandro Juliani]] as [[Felix Gaeta]]
*[[Tahmoh Penikett]] as [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]]
*[[Nicki Clyne]] as [[Cally Tyrol]]
*[[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
*[[Jen Halley]] as [[Diana Seelix]]
*[[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[[Bodie Olmos]] as [[Brendan Costanza|Brendan "Hot Dog" Brendan Costanza]]
*[[Leah Cairns]] as [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
*[[Colin Lawrence]] as [[Hamish McCall|Hamish "Skulls" McCall]]
*[[Mark Sheppard]] as [[Romo Lampkin]]
*[[Ryan Robbins]] as [[Charlie Connor]]
*[[Keegan Connor Tracy]] as Young Woman
*[[Chelah Horsdal]] as [[Cassidy]]
*[[Susan Hogan]] as [[Franks]]
*[[William Samples]] as Judge Number Two
*Lily Duong-Walton as [[Hera Agathon]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|Crossroads, Part I]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|Crossroads, Part I]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|Crossroads, Part I]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Crossroads, Part I/Archive 1

2007-03-23T00:36:14Z

Baltarstar:

==Promo Pics==
Are [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a9064 here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:54, 27 February 2007 (CST)
: Tried to go there, but I get the following: Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /drewcypher/gallery/000a9064 on this server. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 08:09, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
::NBC cracked down on websites publishing the highres press photos.. They are still here: http://galacticastation.com/episodes/s3guide/318.htm --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

== Predictions ==

I was too busy drooling over my favorite [[Number Three|Suicide Girl]] to spend much time in front of the ol' crystal ball this week, but I got in a little bit of quality future-gazing at the last minute.
*[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Beau]] locks the Battlestar Wiki, causing widespread panic throughout the Fleet! Without the ability to edit, how are our remaining 41,000 citizens supposed to comment on the shocking accuracy of their beloved seer's predictions? Riots! Fire! Premarital sex! And that's all just the teaser! In the end, however, they will make due and will remember that editing a wiki isn't everything. :)
*Back in February, my crystal ball told me that the trial of Baltar would begin. Obviously, the ball had a little too much [[New Caprican loco weed|Fleet wheat]] and tossed me a prediction for this episode instead. Yep, blame it on others, that's me. The Admiral would be so disappointed.
*We've all seen Caprica and Tigh exchanging bruises in the preview for this episode. This will be the only Cylon-on-human violence we see in the entire episode, and probably in the rest of the season.
*Baltar publically reveals during his trial that Roslin's cancer was cured by Hera's blood and that Hera is half-Cylon. The Fleet goes nuts. Baltar also reveals the plot to steal the Presidency and how it was covered up after the election. I've got a feeling he'll also reveal some shady goings-on during the year on New Caprica that we haven't seen.
*As the trial goes on, Tigh and Zarek are in charge of the military and civilian branches of the Fleet, respectively. They've never been fans of each other and now they're going to lock horns like never before.
*At the end of the episode, the Fleet jumps to a new system. Something sparks a huge shouting match between Zarek and Tigh, during which Gaeta detects... something. I'm not sure what it is, but it's the last marker on the road to Earth. Unfortunately, the Cylons are already there. After reorganizing in the wake of boxing an entire model, the Cylon expeditionary fleet has actually gotten ahead of the Colonials in just a few jumps. Baltar's trial is interrupted by this event and the episode ends on a cliffhanger.
After nearly half a season without them, the Cylons return in a big way this episode. While I'd personally like Baltar's trial to remain as human as possible, I'm afraid you can't have a season finale without the Cylons making a grand appearance and leaving everything hanging in the balance. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:57, 16 March 2007 (CDT)

:(*snif*) No mention of Galvatron? Is he being left to rust somewhere in space by something more evil than he: ''lawyers?'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:44, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
::Starscream, obviously. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:54, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Sorry, guys. I thought Galvatron's presence would be obvious, keeping previous predictions in mind. He's in his new Pretender disguise: Romo Lampkin. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 23:58, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
:I'm looking forward to Cylon presence, we haven't seen any Cylons (save for Athena and Caprica-Six) since "Rapture". Or have we? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 14:49, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

Some thoughts:
Could the strange noises and/or music that Tigh, Anders, and Foster hear be early radio waves from Earth? Are they close enough (within 100 light years) that the earlier transmissions from 1900-present are reaching Galactica? We have been broadcasting radio waves into space for over 100 years. If this is in any way correct, the closer they get to Earth, the more recent the broadcast will be. Tigh says the sounds are coming from the ship... the only thing I can figure is if they indeed ARE radio waves, the ship would have to act as an antenna of some sort to pick up the signal. Just a guess, but to me the sounds were old, scratchy, and very much reminiscent of earlier radio transmission. This also does not explain why Tigh, Anders, and Foster are the only ones who hear it (unless they are 3 of the 5 cylons, of course complete with built-in AM/FM tuners). --[[User:Captain Finlay|Captain Finlay]] 15:27, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I'd go with the latter option, the ship (or something in the ship) acting as an antenna is not possible AFAIK. Tigh listening to Earth broadcasts is a nice idea, but I think such signals would be extremely weak, or at least too weak for Tigh's wireless. The episode does indeed suggest that Tigh, Anders and Foster have something in common, but it would be strange if that turns out to be Cylonness. Anders and Foster can very well be Cylons, but Tigh has a confirmed history going way back. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 10:34, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

==403 Error==
<s>I keep getting a 403 error when I try to look at the Crossroads Pt. 1 page.</s> <s>Never mind it's being cooperative now.</s> Or not. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:27, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

== When will this article be unlocked ? ==
I know the whole site has been unlocked, but this article appears to still be in lockdown mode. How long will we need to wait before permissions are restored?--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 15:24, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:[http://blog.battlestarwiki.org/?p=115 Thus spake Joe]:
:"Even after this, I expect the wiki to be slow and may even have to protect “Crossroads, Part I” from editing even after the site-wide lockdown."
:The day after an episode we've been getting hammered, and I suspect today is no exception. I expect that the traffic will die down enough such by tomorrow that Joe will unlock this page as well. If there's anything you feel needs to be added to the page while it is locked, you could add it here in the talk age (and copy & paste it later, or somebody else will), or create a subpage of your user page (or just a subsection of your user page) to store the thoughts/ideas/analysis/notes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:04, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::Performance is still extremely sluggish. It works as this very moment, but it's up and down all the time. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:24, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::Shane unlocked the article. I was honestly going to unlock it tomorrow morning, but I don't see how that would have really helped more not. At any rate, the article's unlocked. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:00, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

==Anders in Uniform==
Hey is Anders a pilot now cause they called him a nick name in the teaser --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 17:25, 19 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378
:No, they called him a [[nugget]], which is Colonial Fleet slang for a pilot trainee. But since you've mentioned that, does anyone have a screen grab of this for Anders' page?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:56, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

I know what a nugget is but you would think Anders would be a MArine considering his history in the Resistance --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 18:00, 21 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378

== Act 1 item ==

Since it's not editable, I'm posting here....

# Back on Galactica, in CIC, Admiral Adama orders a scan for any tracking devices that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated Caprica-Six for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.

# Lee Adama enters CIC near Roslin, who is collecting herself in the Weapons Control station. He notices a cup and decanter in CIC, ostensibly belonging to Col. Tigh and smells it. His expression suggests the presence of alcohol.

I rewatched this scene, because I got something different out of it. I think this should read:

# Back on Galactica, in CIC, Admiral Adama, Lee Adama, Col. Tigh, and President Rosline are discussing the baseships. Someone brings Roslin a decanter of tea? Admiral Adama orders a scan for any tracking devices that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated Caprica-Six for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.

# Roslin walk to the Weapons Control station to collect herself. Lee Adama notices the cup belonging to Roslin; sniffs it and detects chamalla.

I think that Lee is taking Romo's lesson's to heart from the last episode and connecting Roslin's erratic behavior with her chamalla tea. -- [[User:Disputin|Disputin]] 17:31, 19 March 2007

:Agreed. At first I thought it was Tigh's too, but later it's explained as how he made the connection to Roslin still taking chamalla. That it's sweetened with sugar to mask the taste is explained by the oracle on New Caprica. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:57, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

::I haven't listened to the podcast, but I suspect that the ambiguity was intentional. You're supposed to think it's Tigh's, and then realize that it was Roslin's all along. Not that Tigh drinking on duty ought to be anything of a revelation anyway. The man likes the sauce. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:25, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:::You can see Foster handing the can and cup to Roslin. It's not that obvious, and I missed it too at first, but it's clear that it's not Tigh's. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:32, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

==Opening==
Has anyone been able to find out why the opening title wasn't in the episode? --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 17:57, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
Also, if we really want a survivor count, we could use what that lawyer gave us as a number during the trial (even though it seems a bit too low). --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 18:02, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:No, because that's too old. It's also somewhat conflicting (see my comment on Survivor Count talk). That number has to refer to the ''civilian'' population directly after the escape. But that discussion is better for the SC article.
:From the podcast transcript:
:"In case you're wondering, no we did not forget to put the pre-cap on that says, "The Cylons Were Created By Man," etc. etc. Truth is we were pressed for time on these last two and we asked for special dispensation to do away with the pre-cap, as we call it, and also with the main title. So-to give us-in order to give us more time to tell the story and really play this for all it's worth."
:So there you have it. That's what I suspected happened. It sounds like they were really crunched for time on these last two episodes (considering the opening chop running a few minutes long next week). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::I disagree about the survivor count. I think the survivor count has always been and still refers to the number of humans known to exist and/or are independent of Cylon control regardless of military or Civilian status. That is the point, the survival of humanity, so the number after the escape refers to both civilian and military. Also, did anyone take into account the estimated 8,000 people killed when the ''Cloud Nine'' and surrounding too close ships blew up near the end of the episode Lay Down Your Burdens part II which of course happened after the episode survivor count was displayed? After the ''Cloud Nine'' blew we got the number of people who went down to New Caprica. The loss of the ''Clould Nine'' would skew the numbers [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:04, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:::''Cloud Nine'' is accounted for at [[Survivor Count]]. It's factored into the drop between "Lay Down Burdens, Part II" and the population of New Caprica City (plus those left in orbit). And you're right that generally it refers to ''all'' humans. The one at the start of the episode does anyways. But I see no other way to explain Cassidy's numbers. It's really a writing error. Even with that explanation it's inconsistent. I'll reword it a bit to clarify that's a writing error --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:18, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Is the Eight at the opening Sharon Agathon or Boomer or another Eight? Kind of appears that Park has an expression more accustomed to Boomer on her face, as well as wearing her hair as Boomer. [[User:Huh?|Huh?]] 06:26, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I think it must be [[Sharon Agathon]] (Athena) since she's [[Hera]]'s mother. --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 15:02, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::A comment made by RDM in the podcast indicated that there was a moment shot (but later cut) where they saw each other in the officer's head (the bathroom) and had a moment where they weren't QUITE ready yet to talk to each other about the fact that they'd had a dream with each other in it. It's in act 1 of the podcast transcript, if you're interested. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

==Refinery Ship==
Did anyone here Tivo the episode? In the scene on the refinery ship, I thought I saw Olmos in a cameo. He looked like he had the Gaff mustache from Blade Runner. Can anyone check this? --[[User:Whalepelt|Whalepelt]] 09:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I haven't checked it, but I doubt it. It's probably just cut footage from "Dirty Hands" or possible even copied from the aired version. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:14, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::I have a copy, and the bit with the scruffy mustachioed man is about 10:35 into the episode. It does look a little like Olmos, but it's hard to tell, and the eyes don't seem quite right. In any case, if he is a Cylon, he could've gone a little further with avoiding looking like his admiral counterpart. :) --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 00:43, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Yeah, I noticed it immediately when watching the scene. But I seriously doubt they that's really EJO. There is no reason for such a camo of a high-profile actor. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:50, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::::Unless, as Saforrest suggested, Adama is ... a Cylon! *cues Cylon theme* :D. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:22, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

== Disagreement on this point in the analysis ==

I took out this line from the analysis by Serenity. There a few points that I disagree with how this is worded:

"[[Racetrack]] continues her history of trying to escape at the first sign of danger ("[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", "[[Occupation]]", "[[Torn]]"). However this time, her Raptor is actually in immediate danger of being destroyed by the Cylons and jumps away at the last moment."

*This isn't the first time that Racetrack has escaped from imminent danger. In "[[Dirty Hands]]", she and her ECO barely escaped from the Raptor before it collided with Colonial One and probably exploded because of the impure tylium fuel.
*She was not running at the first sign of danger in "[[Occupation]]", they had reached their daily time limit on waiting for contact from New Caprica and yes had begun to pick up some Cylon activity. The last thing that they want is the Cylons to know that a Raptor is constantly waiting for a signal. She stayed long enough to send back the message to the resistance and then left to report the good news.
*In "[[Torn]]", we are not told that she and Athena immediately ran away once they saw the dying baseship. She was freaked out as any pilot would, but once they realized that the baseship and the other fighters were immobile, she had more of a expression of confusion than fear.
*In "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", it was the first time we were introduced to Racetrack. Her expression of fear I would think is natural as no human had ever been inside a new Cylon baseship. Considering that the nuke did not dislodged as planned and that Boomer went outside unexpectedly, it probably would freak out anyone.

Anyhows, we can put this line back in later, but I think it needs to be rewritten. I honestly don't think that this character trait is just to Racetrack alone. Boomer in the mini-series did the same thing once she and Helo realized that the Vipers were being destroyed. I would think any smart Raptor pilot would know when to bug out since their ship isn't the most fighter capable.--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 12:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

:-sigh- In how many places do you want to bring this up? I mentioned it on your talk page, because you have an issue with it and then you replied to it on mine. Now you discuss it here as well. That's completely unnecessary.
:People can think that she's a coward or that she's doing her job. It doesn't say anything either way. I agree that "Occupation" isn't really a good example as the time is merely up, but the others are not cases of her running away from ''immediate'' danger. Except for "Dirty Hands" which doesn't fall into this pattern and thus isn't even mentioned. You are the one bringing that into this. Let's just remove it, as your attempts at rewording just twisted into something wrong. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:54, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::In any event I agree with Life Star's issue of the (mis)characterization of Racetrack. In none of the incidents in which her personal bravery is questioned are an instance of cowardice. I don't know how can anyone get that looking at the scenes.She had a legit reason to get the hell out of Dodge in all of them, including and especially after getting the signal from NC after lurking in the nebula near the planet. The line "[[Racetrack]] continues her history of trying to escape at the first sign of danger.." implies cowardice. Implying a character is a coward when he/she really is not would not be reporting the facts accurately in this 'pedia. It has to be supported by the facts or at least logical argument like everything else.[[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:18, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

== Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. ==

It seems that the events in Episode "Six Degrees of Seperation" just dont matter anymore. I notice a lack of continuity with the events and their relevance in any further episodes with Baltar being potentially implicated in the initial genocide. Also, no one seems to acknowledge that Six looked like the same Six that was in that episode. Finally, the story arc of her dissappearing so quickly has never been explored. Somehow I had imagined these final two episodes might explain the plot holes (or dangling plot lines if you will) of that episode. Any thoughts? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 18:06, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:Could you explain that a bit more? I just rewatched Six Degrees (Hmm, anyone think that the title could be a reference to the Cylon?), and I don't see it contradicting this at all. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:43, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

::Well, Six interacted with Roslyn and Adama and pictures were shown implicating him. Although later those pictures were shown to be doctored up, what makes no sense is why the interaction has not been linked to any of the trial now. For example, no one seems to remember Six being there and everyone is remembering her for the first time being captured as "Caprica" and no mention of "Shelly Godfrey". Has Roslyn, Adama, or anyone else asked "Hey, aren't you the same Cylon we met a year ago who accused Baltar of giving access to the colonial defensive grid?". Anyway, so I just find that episode to be an orphan in this series. It's unique aspects not fitting in at all with the plot. I don't know what the comment about the title referring to Six is supposed to mean. Obviously we all all know it's referring to Six, I certainly see no reason to doubt that. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:31, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:I haven't seen any contradiction. As [[Cassidy]] said to [[Tory Foster]] at the beginning of this episode, they couldn't go after Baltar about his involvement with Six before the fall of the Colonies because they had no solid evidence, other than Roslin's claim. They went after him with what they had: his collaboration with the Cylons on New Caprica, which includes the signed execution order. Also, while Shelly Godfrey's "disappearing" at the end of "Six Degrees of Separation" isn't explained, it doesn't really have any bearing on the storyline whatsoever. (She more than likely spaced herself, thus killing herself and removing her body from the fleet, but that's utterly academic now.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:31, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

::Case in point. You're speaking of them "needing proof". I'm speaking of the storyline, not just the trial. Roslyn nor Adama are responding to the connection to the events in Six degrees. What about that photograph of Baltar in the defense mainframe? What about "Shelly Godfrey"? What about her interaction despite being obviously responsive to Baltar's own choices. And finally, the idea that she just "spaced" herself (whatever that means) is totally not working. You can't kill yourself and then remove your own body, let alone so quickly that you turn a corner with Marines hot on your trail and accomplish this feat. It's far from academic, it's a plot hole that I noticed when that episode first aired and I suspected that this episode would be ignored plotwise. Name one scene in season 2 or 3 where any evens in Six Degrees had any relevance. At the very least, when they were interrogating Baltar and they had him doped up... they never asked him about her. Why? Because that episode stretched the limits of credibility. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
*Shelly Godfrey appeared and disappeared with no explanation and no further event like this has happened again. Cylons have not been known to disappear (or space out as you call it). I can make a stretch that Baltar's "divine" abilities may be related to some greater plotline that simply has not been established. Maybe Baltar is one of the first five. But Shelly certainly is not Caprica Six. Shelly certainly did not "die". She was not resurrected on any basestar. Her interaction with Baltar does not carry over to any of the other sixes. No, She represents some greater unexplained phenomonon surrounding Baltar (or the episode was a plot orphan).
*Roslyn remembered vaguely seeing Baltar with Six, but oops, Shelly looks just like her. Roslyn never asks "Baltar, was the woman on board last year the same woman I saw you with? She accused you of being behind the destruction of the 12 colonies, now what happened to her, and how did she disappear"... something! Again, when Six Degrees ended, I had a feeling that they would just hope we all forgot about that episode.
*Adama wanted an investigation on how she dissappeared... what ever happeend with that?
* This site even tries to explain the plot-hole. From calling her a Cylon-Related Hallucination...which comes with doctored footage that computers can reverse analyze to dialogue which tends to line up with disjointed events...
*Godfrey will have to be explained again in the future. I believe she should be explained when (or if) Baltar ever confronts Caprica-Six. I also believe that Dr. Amorak's demise or something about the Olympic Carrier may also need to be clarified to fill in this growing by the episode plot-hole! --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:48, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

::: When I say "spaced", I mean she threw herself out into space (more specifically, she probably found an airlock on ''Galactica'', jumped into it, and vented herself out into space). It's not the magical phenomenon you believe it to be, apparently... And I'm gonna have a chill run down my back when I say this, but it's spelled [[Laura Roslin]] not Laura Roslyn. ::cringe:: -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 05:28, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:::: Yes Godfrey "spacing" herself .i.e ejecting herself out of an airlock voluntarily (as opposed to Leoben ejected out by Roslin and Athena almost being so) is the most logical explanation as to why they never found her. As to we not seeing her resurrected anywhere if you accept that most likely she walked out of an airlock she was resurrected since at the time (as it is now) the Cylon Fleet was tracking the RTF and their resurrection ships were close. We did not see Leoben resurrect anywhere either, but we know from soken references, most recently when Caprica Six told Roslin when she was first captured in the deleted scene, he did resurrect. So while admittedly we have no hard or testimonial evidence as to her disappearance and resurrection, it can be safely assumed that since she hasn't been seen in the fleet for almost two years, especially after the occupation of New Caprica when the seven known Cylons blew their cover so to speak, Shelly Godfrey spaced herself and was resurrected elsewhere. Also, we haven't heard any references to D'anna Biers either (although D'anna judging from the dream/vision she had was killed by Marines on Galactica.) so Shelly Godfrey isn't the only Cylon that infiltrated the fleet that they haven't talked about. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:43, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

*It's been awhile since I've seen this episode but if I recall most of the episode was shot from Baltar's perspective. Basiclly, this episode seems to be partially based on showing that virtual six (or Baltar by proxy of virtual six) has some divine or super-natural abilities, possibly as a lead in to "The Hand of God" and "Home, Part II". Also, the way this episode was shot, it's possible that the entire event was a delusion brought on by the virtual six(whoever or whatever she may be) to scare Baltar into compliance and to convince him that she has super-natural abilities. The complete lack of referrence to these events by other characters would only support this theory(as they would have no recollection of these events since they didn't happen,) as does the last thing said by virtual six when Baltar asks about Shelly "Was she even here?". Virtual Six's motives for doing this would be to show Baltar that he's dealing with more than just a random delusion or a chip in his brain, and to scare him into doing what she wants or fear exposure. If she has complete control over Baltar's consciousness then there would be no reason whatsoever to include the other characters when she could simply cause a delusion within Baltar's head. Many of the events appear to be impossible in the real world. For example Shelly appears allmost immediatly after Baltar angers Virtual Six with his disbelief in her divine connection. Virtual Six would have to have knowledge Baltar was about to call her on her "abilities" making her precognizant since it's likely even Baltar didn't know he was going to snap at her at that moment, yet Shelly's appearence is timed perfectly to the minute. Also the allmost Dues Ex Machina way Baltar is redeemed is perfectly timed with his confession to Virtual Six and occurs due to Gaeta acting seemingly independent of Virtual Six's control. In short Virtual Six either has to be Omnipotent or at least precognizant to pull this off in the real world (unlikely given her later reaction in regards to Hera's "death".) Also even if she could attempt these actions in the real world they would be less effective than simply causing a hallucination, especially since she is attempting to impart a feeling that she has complete control of the world and an ability to manipulate other people (something that's at least probably proven not true by her seeming unaware of Roslin's hiding of Hera, and her anger at Baltar for failing to protect her.) --[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 11:42, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
*Possible alternative. For this alternative we'll assume that Virtual Six is what she claims to be, a divine being serving an omnipotent Being. When you include an onimpotent God in the equation all of a sudden you can throw the physics rule book out the airlock. The issues with Shelly's past and disappearence are now moot as Shelly was most likely also an angel of God having taken human form for this appearence. Likewise all the other improbable events and perfect timings are explained(thats what God wanted therefore thats what happened "Let There Be Framing"). Another required assumption is that God either is incapable or unwilling to affect the free will of humans (and possibly cylons) directly but has no qualms with influencing them. The purpose behind this charade remains the same as my earlier theory(to scare Baltar into compliance.) That being said Shelly's resemblence to a Six could simply be an extra tack on the board to scare or confuse Baltar. Likewise this resemblence is something that may only be evident to Baltar (ie. the other characters see her as a different person with no resemblence to a Six.) It is possible that it is part of Gods overall plan that the humans never believe that the cylons were behind the attempt to frame Baltar. There is no evidence that God wanted the humans to think that cylons attempted this frame and it is possible that God specifically did not want that. That would explain the lack of this information during Baltar's trial. The evidence is proven false. Why would Roslin and Adama want evidence that proves Baltar was FRAMED for treason surfacing during a trial where THEY charged him with treason, it would SUPPORT Baltar's case.
--[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 11:42, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:Whoa! Slow down, cowboy! I'm happy that you have many ideas, JonesJ3599, but keep in mind that [[BW:NOT|this isn't a chat forum]]; it's hard to read and long blocks of text will dilute your point. I'll try to parse what points you have.

:One thing to read is the article on [[virtual beings]], specifically on the points we have gleaned from aired content about virtual Six and Baltar. We still don't know what they really are, if they are delusions or angels, but the fact that two real beings have imaginary friends floating with them means a lot. The virtual beings aren't copies of the actual ones; their personalities are more militant versions. Shelley was just another Six; her appearance and disappearance is coincidental to virtual Six's actions (as far as we can tell). The fact that the virtual beings have insight and knowledge that often seems to match and exceed that of its host is obvious. When virtual Baltar showed up, however, we can't now assume that virtual Six is a Cylon plot; Caprica-Six was (and is) very confused about her vBaltar. For now, what they are and who they tap into is a mystery. Keep in mind as you read up that Battlestar Wiki enjoys plausible speculation [[BW:FANW|ONLY if it has an official reference from the show]]. Personal theories aren't good here, although you can always ask about the plausibilities of something you noted (briefly) here on a talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:23, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

I will try to briefly address these responses. Also, the reason why is because I really believe this episode deserves better treatment in the whole story arc than it has been treated. Secondly, the reasons and responses I have read simply do not meet a comforting sense of credibility. It's like the third matrix movie... it just didn't work with the first two. :)

* Overall, Baltar's perspective was not solely how the episode was shot. Especially the part that is most pertinent. When Adama called the marines to track her, and Tigh reported that she dissappeared around a corner. Baltar was not present. Adama flipped out "FIND HER!" he shouted!

* There is no way she could have ejected herself into space without causing some decompression damage or alarm or at the very least attracting the attention of some monitoring system.(This is where credibility and plot holes come to play). If the goal was just to say she ejected to space... well, that would have been the more sensible way by showing it. For her to "dissappear" implies that they want us to think there is more to her than just moving at the speed of light, unlocking an airlock, floating out in space and somehow doing all of this in one second. No, that's called a plot hole. The writers do not intend on us thinking she ejected herself and I reject that entirely. She turned a corner with Marines right behind her. She was being watched closely. She didn't have time to open an airlock, eject, then CLOSE it. Who closed the airlock then... from the inside? One of the Marines?

* Shelly is a projection of Baltar's (and his virtual Six's) consciousness, or related to it. She was not working in tandem with the Cylons. If she was, it's a coiencidence (or providence) that she came by and did what she did. I could acknowledge that she worked ignorantly of Baltar's own virtual six... sort of how Baltar chose the right place to attack in "Hand of God", or how Virtual Six predicted that there would be a new cylon-hybrid child born at the end of Season 1. But you can't have Shelly be both in league with the Cylons and also working consciously as an extension of Baltar's conscioiusness.

* JonesJ correctly points out, Gaeta acts independant of a hallucination, or any control of Virtual Six. So either Virtual Six is either of another "faction" (not cylon, not human) or Baltar is unconsciously creating these circumstances. Which leads me to this point:

Six Degrees would be a great episode to introduce the omniscence of the "final five". But more importantly is that we need to get more clarity that the Virtual beings are neither on the cylon nor the human side. And guess what, the final five... I am more and more convinced are behind this, and the final five are not cylons. So what if the other cylons think they are. To say Shelly is just another Six is not sufficient. She does not work in the frame of the cylon power structure. She came, wasted some time and left. You all gotta admit, if we took that episode out... because it has not been really canonized in further episodes... nothing would be missing. Nothing would be lost continuity wise. But I'm appealing that that episode be given more attention than it has. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 19:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Oh and what does this have to do with this episode? Baltar is being revered as a god with godlike powers. Shelly is forgotten in the whole trial. Shelly is a good, very good link between Virtual Six and Caprica. Remember, Virtual Six is Baltar's projection of Caprica Six, and Shelly is an extension of Virtual Six. And now only a select few are hearing strange but interesting noises on the ship.. and Caprica leads them on a goose chase... just like Shelly did! Yes, I'm speculating, but it is much more intriguing than "SHelly spaced herself and closed the door on the way out". --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 19:36, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

== Tory's Lack of Sleep and "the look" ==
The following excerpt from the podcast transcript not only helps explain Tory and Anders' sleep troubles, but also the weird look she gives him when he's all cuddly with Seelix:
"Y'know notice how frazzled Tory is starting to look here. There was more of an awareness actually in the follow up scene that's coming-that there was a line that was dropped where Laura essentially confro-where she confronts Tory in the scene coming up in th quarters she out-she tells Tory pretty directly, she knows she's sleeping with Anders at that point. Because that that secret was out in the fleet. And Laura was saying, "Y'know your spending more time with Mr. Anders." And Tory kind of blanches. And Laura says, "Y'know that won't, his wife was a hero to a lot of people in this fleet and this isn't looking good and what the F*#$ are you thinking.""

So apparently there's more soap opera action going on than they had time to give coverage to? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:20, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:The little over-talkative birds that haunt my online dreams appear to concur with your assessment, but I'll wait for the Truth. It's Out There. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

::I'm sure if anything is to come of it we'll see it Sunday. It just helped make sense for me of the WTF moment for me when Tory gave Anders that look. The lack of sleep I attributed to the orbital mind control lasers (or whatever that radio stuff is), but the look was just odd. If it helps, RDM's podcast was my only source on the matter, as I generally avoid online birds (especially near the finale) due to their tendency to sing spoilers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:16, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Crossroads, Part I/Archive 1

2007-03-23T00:31:19Z

Baltarstar: /* Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. */

==Promo Pics==
Are [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a9064 here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:54, 27 February 2007 (CST)
: Tried to go there, but I get the following: Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /drewcypher/gallery/000a9064 on this server. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 08:09, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
::NBC cracked down on websites publishing the highres press photos.. They are still here: http://galacticastation.com/episodes/s3guide/318.htm --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

== Predictions ==

I was too busy drooling over my favorite [[Number Three|Suicide Girl]] to spend much time in front of the ol' crystal ball this week, but I got in a little bit of quality future-gazing at the last minute.
*[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Beau]] locks the Battlestar Wiki, causing widespread panic throughout the Fleet! Without the ability to edit, how are our remaining 41,000 citizens supposed to comment on the shocking accuracy of their beloved seer's predictions? Riots! Fire! Premarital sex! And that's all just the teaser! In the end, however, they will make due and will remember that editing a wiki isn't everything. :)
*Back in February, my crystal ball told me that the trial of Baltar would begin. Obviously, the ball had a little too much [[New Caprican loco weed|Fleet wheat]] and tossed me a prediction for this episode instead. Yep, blame it on others, that's me. The Admiral would be so disappointed.
*We've all seen Caprica and Tigh exchanging bruises in the preview for this episode. This will be the only Cylon-on-human violence we see in the entire episode, and probably in the rest of the season.
*Baltar publically reveals during his trial that Roslin's cancer was cured by Hera's blood and that Hera is half-Cylon. The Fleet goes nuts. Baltar also reveals the plot to steal the Presidency and how it was covered up after the election. I've got a feeling he'll also reveal some shady goings-on during the year on New Caprica that we haven't seen.
*As the trial goes on, Tigh and Zarek are in charge of the military and civilian branches of the Fleet, respectively. They've never been fans of each other and now they're going to lock horns like never before.
*At the end of the episode, the Fleet jumps to a new system. Something sparks a huge shouting match between Zarek and Tigh, during which Gaeta detects... something. I'm not sure what it is, but it's the last marker on the road to Earth. Unfortunately, the Cylons are already there. After reorganizing in the wake of boxing an entire model, the Cylon expeditionary fleet has actually gotten ahead of the Colonials in just a few jumps. Baltar's trial is interrupted by this event and the episode ends on a cliffhanger.
After nearly half a season without them, the Cylons return in a big way this episode. While I'd personally like Baltar's trial to remain as human as possible, I'm afraid you can't have a season finale without the Cylons making a grand appearance and leaving everything hanging in the balance. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:57, 16 March 2007 (CDT)

:(*snif*) No mention of Galvatron? Is he being left to rust somewhere in space by something more evil than he: ''lawyers?'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:44, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
::Starscream, obviously. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:54, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Sorry, guys. I thought Galvatron's presence would be obvious, keeping previous predictions in mind. He's in his new Pretender disguise: Romo Lampkin. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 23:58, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
:I'm looking forward to Cylon presence, we haven't seen any Cylons (save for Athena and Caprica-Six) since "Rapture". Or have we? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 14:49, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

Some thoughts:
Could the strange noises and/or music that Tigh, Anders, and Foster hear be early radio waves from Earth? Are they close enough (within 100 light years) that the earlier transmissions from 1900-present are reaching Galactica? We have been broadcasting radio waves into space for over 100 years. If this is in any way correct, the closer they get to Earth, the more recent the broadcast will be. Tigh says the sounds are coming from the ship... the only thing I can figure is if they indeed ARE radio waves, the ship would have to act as an antenna of some sort to pick up the signal. Just a guess, but to me the sounds were old, scratchy, and very much reminiscent of earlier radio transmission. This also does not explain why Tigh, Anders, and Foster are the only ones who hear it (unless they are 3 of the 5 cylons, of course complete with built-in AM/FM tuners). --[[User:Captain Finlay|Captain Finlay]] 15:27, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I'd go with the latter option, the ship (or something in the ship) acting as an antenna is not possible AFAIK. Tigh listening to Earth broadcasts is a nice idea, but I think such signals would be extremely weak, or at least too weak for Tigh's wireless. The episode does indeed suggest that Tigh, Anders and Foster have something in common, but it would be strange if that turns out to be Cylonness. Anders and Foster can very well be Cylons, but Tigh has a confirmed history going way back. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 10:34, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

==403 Error==
<s>I keep getting a 403 error when I try to look at the Crossroads Pt. 1 page.</s> <s>Never mind it's being cooperative now.</s> Or not. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:27, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

== When will this article be unlocked ? ==
I know the whole site has been unlocked, but this article appears to still be in lockdown mode. How long will we need to wait before permissions are restored?--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 15:24, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:[http://blog.battlestarwiki.org/?p=115 Thus spake Joe]:
:"Even after this, I expect the wiki to be slow and may even have to protect “Crossroads, Part I” from editing even after the site-wide lockdown."
:The day after an episode we've been getting hammered, and I suspect today is no exception. I expect that the traffic will die down enough such by tomorrow that Joe will unlock this page as well. If there's anything you feel needs to be added to the page while it is locked, you could add it here in the talk age (and copy & paste it later, or somebody else will), or create a subpage of your user page (or just a subsection of your user page) to store the thoughts/ideas/analysis/notes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:04, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::Performance is still extremely sluggish. It works as this very moment, but it's up and down all the time. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:24, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::Shane unlocked the article. I was honestly going to unlock it tomorrow morning, but I don't see how that would have really helped more not. At any rate, the article's unlocked. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:00, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

==Anders in Uniform==
Hey is Anders a pilot now cause they called him a nick name in the teaser --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 17:25, 19 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378
:No, they called him a [[nugget]], which is Colonial Fleet slang for a pilot trainee. But since you've mentioned that, does anyone have a screen grab of this for Anders' page?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:56, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

I know what a nugget is but you would think Anders would be a MArine considering his history in the Resistance --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 18:00, 21 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378

== Act 1 item ==

Since it's not editable, I'm posting here....

# Back on Galactica, in CIC, Admiral Adama orders a scan for any tracking devices that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated Caprica-Six for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.

# Lee Adama enters CIC near Roslin, who is collecting herself in the Weapons Control station. He notices a cup and decanter in CIC, ostensibly belonging to Col. Tigh and smells it. His expression suggests the presence of alcohol.

I rewatched this scene, because I got something different out of it. I think this should read:

# Back on Galactica, in CIC, Admiral Adama, Lee Adama, Col. Tigh, and President Rosline are discussing the baseships. Someone brings Roslin a decanter of tea? Admiral Adama orders a scan for any tracking devices that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated Caprica-Six for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.

# Roslin walk to the Weapons Control station to collect herself. Lee Adama notices the cup belonging to Roslin; sniffs it and detects chamalla.

I think that Lee is taking Romo's lesson's to heart from the last episode and connecting Roslin's erratic behavior with her chamalla tea. -- [[User:Disputin|Disputin]] 17:31, 19 March 2007

:Agreed. At first I thought it was Tigh's too, but later it's explained as how he made the connection to Roslin still taking chamalla. That it's sweetened with sugar to mask the taste is explained by the oracle on New Caprica. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:57, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

::I haven't listened to the podcast, but I suspect that the ambiguity was intentional. You're supposed to think it's Tigh's, and then realize that it was Roslin's all along. Not that Tigh drinking on duty ought to be anything of a revelation anyway. The man likes the sauce. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:25, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:::You can see Foster handing the can and cup to Roslin. It's not that obvious, and I missed it too at first, but it's clear that it's not Tigh's. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:32, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

==Opening==
Has anyone been able to find out why the opening title wasn't in the episode? --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 17:57, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
Also, if we really want a survivor count, we could use what that lawyer gave us as a number during the trial (even though it seems a bit too low). --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 18:02, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:No, because that's too old. It's also somewhat conflicting (see my comment on Survivor Count talk). That number has to refer to the ''civilian'' population directly after the escape. But that discussion is better for the SC article.
:From the podcast transcript:
:"In case you're wondering, no we did not forget to put the pre-cap on that says, "The Cylons Were Created By Man," etc. etc. Truth is we were pressed for time on these last two and we asked for special dispensation to do away with the pre-cap, as we call it, and also with the main title. So-to give us-in order to give us more time to tell the story and really play this for all it's worth."
:So there you have it. That's what I suspected happened. It sounds like they were really crunched for time on these last two episodes (considering the opening chop running a few minutes long next week). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::I disagree about the survivor count. I think the survivor count has always been and still refers to the number of humans known to exist and/or are independent of Cylon control regardless of military or Civilian status. That is the point, the survival of humanity, so the number after the escape refers to both civilian and military. Also, did anyone take into account the estimated 8,000 people killed when the ''Cloud Nine'' and surrounding too close ships blew up near the end of the episode Lay Down Your Burdens part II which of course happened after the episode survivor count was displayed? After the ''Cloud Nine'' blew we got the number of people who went down to New Caprica. The loss of the ''Clould Nine'' would skew the numbers [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:04, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:::''Cloud Nine'' is accounted for at [[Survivor Count]]. It's factored into the drop between "Lay Down Burdens, Part II" and the population of New Caprica City (plus those left in orbit). And you're right that generally it refers to ''all'' humans. The one at the start of the episode does anyways. But I see no other way to explain Cassidy's numbers. It's really a writing error. Even with that explanation it's inconsistent. I'll reword it a bit to clarify that's a writing error --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:18, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Is the Eight at the opening Sharon Agathon or Boomer or another Eight? Kind of appears that Park has an expression more accustomed to Boomer on her face, as well as wearing her hair as Boomer. [[User:Huh?|Huh?]] 06:26, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I think it must be [[Sharon Agathon]] (Athena) since she's [[Hera]]'s mother. --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 15:02, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::A comment made by RDM in the podcast indicated that there was a moment shot (but later cut) where they saw each other in the officer's head (the bathroom) and had a moment where they weren't QUITE ready yet to talk to each other about the fact that they'd had a dream with each other in it. It's in act 1 of the podcast transcript, if you're interested. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

==Refinery Ship==
Did anyone here Tivo the episode? In the scene on the refinery ship, I thought I saw Olmos in a cameo. He looked like he had the Gaff mustache from Blade Runner. Can anyone check this? --[[User:Whalepelt|Whalepelt]] 09:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I haven't checked it, but I doubt it. It's probably just cut footage from "Dirty Hands" or possible even copied from the aired version. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:14, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::I have a copy, and the bit with the scruffy mustachioed man is about 10:35 into the episode. It does look a little like Olmos, but it's hard to tell, and the eyes don't seem quite right. In any case, if he is a Cylon, he could've gone a little further with avoiding looking like his admiral counterpart. :) --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 00:43, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Yeah, I noticed it immediately when watching the scene. But I seriously doubt they that's really EJO. There is no reason for such a camo of a high-profile actor. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:50, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::::Unless, as Saforrest suggested, Adama is ... a Cylon! *cues Cylon theme* :D. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:22, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

== Disagreement on this point in the analysis ==

I took out this line from the analysis by Serenity. There a few points that I disagree with how this is worded:

"[[Racetrack]] continues her history of trying to escape at the first sign of danger ("[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", "[[Occupation]]", "[[Torn]]"). However this time, her Raptor is actually in immediate danger of being destroyed by the Cylons and jumps away at the last moment."

*This isn't the first time that Racetrack has escaped from imminent danger. In "[[Dirty Hands]]", she and her ECO barely escaped from the Raptor before it collided with Colonial One and probably exploded because of the impure tylium fuel.
*She was not running at the first sign of danger in "[[Occupation]]", they had reached their daily time limit on waiting for contact from New Caprica and yes had begun to pick up some Cylon activity. The last thing that they want is the Cylons to know that a Raptor is constantly waiting for a signal. She stayed long enough to send back the message to the resistance and then left to report the good news.
*In "[[Torn]]", we are not told that she and Athena immediately ran away once they saw the dying baseship. She was freaked out as any pilot would, but once they realized that the baseship and the other fighters were immobile, she had more of a expression of confusion than fear.
*In "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", it was the first time we were introduced to Racetrack. Her expression of fear I would think is natural as no human had ever been inside a new Cylon baseship. Considering that the nuke did not dislodged as planned and that Boomer went outside unexpectedly, it probably would freak out anyone.

Anyhows, we can put this line back in later, but I think it needs to be rewritten. I honestly don't think that this character trait is just to Racetrack alone. Boomer in the mini-series did the same thing once she and Helo realized that the Vipers were being destroyed. I would think any smart Raptor pilot would know when to bug out since their ship isn't the most fighter capable.--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 12:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

:-sigh- In how many places do you want to bring this up? I mentioned it on your talk page, because you have an issue with it and then you replied to it on mine. Now you discuss it here as well. That's completely unnecessary.
:People can think that she's a coward or that she's doing her job. It doesn't say anything either way. I agree that "Occupation" isn't really a good example as the time is merely up, but the others are not cases of her running away from ''immediate'' danger. Except for "Dirty Hands" which doesn't fall into this pattern and thus isn't even mentioned. You are the one bringing that into this. Let's just remove it, as your attempts at rewording just twisted into something wrong. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:54, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::In any event I agree with Life Star's issue of the (mis)characterization of Racetrack. In none of the incidents in which her personal bravery is questioned are an instance of cowardice. I don't know how can anyone get that looking at the scenes.She had a legit reason to get the hell out of Dodge in all of them, including and especially after getting the signal from NC after lurking in the nebula near the planet. The line "[[Racetrack]] continues her history of trying to escape at the first sign of danger.." implies cowardice. Implying a character is a coward when he/she really is not would not be reporting the facts accurately in this 'pedia. It has to be supported by the facts or at least logical argument like everything else.[[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:18, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

== Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. ==

It seems that the events in Episode "Six Degrees of Seperation" just dont matter anymore. I notice a lack of continuity with the events and their relevance in any further episodes with Baltar being potentially implicated in the initial genocide. Also, no one seems to acknowledge that Six looked like the same Six that was in that episode. Finally, the story arc of her dissappearing so quickly has never been explored. Somehow I had imagined these final two episodes might explain the plot holes (or dangling plot lines if you will) of that episode. Any thoughts? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 18:06, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:Could you explain that a bit more? I just rewatched Six Degrees (Hmm, anyone think that the title could be a reference to the Cylon?), and I don't see it contradicting this at all. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:43, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

::Well, Six interacted with Roslyn and Adama and pictures were shown implicating him. Although later those pictures were shown to be doctored up, what makes no sense is why the interaction has not been linked to any of the trial now. For example, no one seems to remember Six being there and everyone is remembering her for the first time being captured as "Caprica" and no mention of "Shelly Godfrey". Has Roslyn, Adama, or anyone else asked "Hey, aren't you the same Cylon we met a year ago who accused Baltar of giving access to the colonial defensive grid?". Anyway, so I just find that episode to be an orphan in this series. It's unique aspects not fitting in at all with the plot. I don't know what the comment about the title referring to Six is supposed to mean. Obviously we all all know it's referring to Six, I certainly see no reason to doubt that. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:31, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:I haven't seen any contradiction. As [[Cassidy]] said to [[Tory Foster]] at the beginning of this episode, they couldn't go after Baltar about his involvement with Six before the fall of the Colonies because they had no solid evidence, other than Roslin's claim. They went after him with what they had: his collaboration with the Cylons on New Caprica, which includes the signed execution order. Also, while Shelly Godfrey's "disappearing" at the end of "Six Degrees of Separation" isn't explained, it doesn't really have any bearing on the storyline whatsoever. (She more than likely spaced herself, thus killing herself and removing her body from the fleet, but that's utterly academic now.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:31, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

::Case in point. You're speaking of them "needing proof". I'm speaking of the storyline, not just the trial. Roslyn nor Adama are responding to the connection to the events in Six degrees. What about that photograph of Baltar in the defense mainframe? What about "Shelly Godfrey"? What about her interaction despite being obviously responsive to Baltar's own choices. And finally, the idea that she just "spaced" herself (whatever that means) is totally not working. You can't kill yourself and then remove your own body, let alone so quickly that you turn a corner with Marines hot on your trail and accomplish this feat. It's far from academic, it's a plot hole that I noticed when that episode first aired and I suspected that this episode would be ignored plotwise. Name one scene in season 2 or 3 where any evens in Six Degrees had any relevance. At the very least, when they were interrogating Baltar and they had him doped up... they never asked him about her. Why? Because that episode stretched the limits of credibility. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
*Shelly Godfrey appeared and disappeared with no explanation and no further event like this has happened again. Cylons have not been known to disappear (or space out as you call it). I can make a stretch that Baltar's "divine" abilities may be related to some greater plotline that simply has not been established. Maybe Baltar is one of the first five. But Shelly certainly is not Caprica Six. Shelly certainly did not "die". She was not resurrected on any basestar. Her interaction with Baltar does not carry over to any of the other sixes. No, She represents some greater unexplained phenomonon surrounding Baltar (or the episode was a plot orphan).
*Roslyn remembered vaguely seeing Baltar with Six, but oops, Shelly looks just like her. Roslyn never asks "Baltar, was the woman on board last year the same woman I saw you with? She accused you of being behind the destruction of the 12 colonies, now what happened to her, and how did she disappear"... something! Again, when Six Degrees ended, I had a feeling that they would just hope we all forgot about that episode.
*Adama wanted an investigation on how she dissappeared... what ever happeend with that?
* This site even tries to explain the plot-hole. From calling her a Cylon-Related Hallucination...which comes with doctored footage that computers can reverse analyze to dialogue which tends to line up with disjointed events...
*Godfrey will have to be explained again in the future. I believe she should be explained when (or if) Baltar ever confronts Caprica-Six. I also believe that Dr. Amorak's demise or something about the Olympic Carrier may also need to be clarified to fill in this growing by the episode plot-hole! --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:48, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

::: When I say "spaced", I mean she threw herself out into space (more specifically, she probably found an airlock on ''Galactica'', jumped into it, and vented herself out into space). It's not the magical phenomenon you believe it to be, apparently... And I'm gonna have a chill run down my back when I say this, but it's spelled [[Laura Roslin]] not Laura Roslyn. ::cringe:: -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 05:28, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:::: Yes Godfrey "spacing" herself .i.e ejecting herself out of an airlock voluntarily (as opposed to Leoben ejected out by Roslin and Athena almost being so) is the most logical explanation as to why they never found her. As to we not seeing her resurrected anywhere if you accept that most likely she walked out of an airlock she was resurrected since at the time (as it is now) the Cylon Fleet was tracking the RTF and their resurrection ships were close. We did not see Leoben resurrect anywhere either, but we know from soken references, most recently when Caprica Six told Roslin when she was first captured in the deleted scene, he did resurrect. So while admittedly we have no hard or testimonial evidence as to her disappearance and resurrection, it can be safely assumed that since she hasn't been seen in the fleet for almost two years, especially after the occupation of New Caprica when the seven known Cylons blew their cover so to speak, Shelly Godfrey spaced herself and was resurrected elsewhere. Also, we haven't heard any references to D'anna Biers either (although D'anna judging from the dream/vision she had was killed by Marines on Galactica.) so Shelly Godfrey isn't the only Cylon that infiltrated the fleet that they haven't talked about. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:43, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

*It's been awhile since I've seen this episode but if I recall most of the episode was shot from Baltar's perspective. Basiclly, this episode seems to be partially based on showing that virtual six (or Baltar by proxy of virtual six) has some divine or super-natural abilities, possibly as a lead in to "The Hand of God" and "Home, Part II". Also, the way this episode was shot, it's possible that the entire event was a delusion brought on by the virtual six(whoever or whatever she may be) to scare Baltar into compliance and to convince him that she has super-natural abilities. The complete lack of referrence to these events by other characters would only support this theory(as they would have no recollection of these events since they didn't happen,) as does the last thing said by virtual six when Baltar asks about Shelly "Was she even here?". Virtual Six's motives for doing this would be to show Baltar that he's dealing with more than just a random delusion or a chip in his brain, and to scare him into doing what she wants or fear exposure. If she has complete control over Baltar's consciousness then there would be no reason whatsoever to include the other characters when she could simply cause a delusion within Baltar's head. Many of the events appear to be impossible in the real world. For example Shelly appears allmost immediatly after Baltar angers Virtual Six with his disbelief in her divine connection. Virtual Six would have to have knowledge Baltar was about to call her on her "abilities" making her precognizant since it's likely even Baltar didn't know he was going to snap at her at that moment, yet Shelly's appearence is timed perfectly to the minute. Also the allmost Dues Ex Machina way Baltar is redeemed is perfectly timed with his confession to Virtual Six and occurs due to Gaeta acting seemingly independent of Virtual Six's control. In short Virtual Six either has to be Omnipotent or at least precognizant to pull this off in the real world (unlikely given her later reaction in regards to Hera's "death".) Also even if she could attempt these actions in the real world they would be less effective than simply causing a hallucination, especially since she is attempting to impart a feeling that she has complete control of the world and an ability to manipulate other people (something that's at least probably proven not true by her seeming unaware of Roslin's hiding of Hera, and her anger at Baltar for failing to protect her.) --[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 11:42, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
*Possible alternative. For this alternative we'll assume that Virtual Six is what she claims to be, a divine being serving an omnipotent Being. When you include an onimpotent God in the equation all of a sudden you can throw the physics rule book out the airlock. The issues with Shelly's past and disappearence are now moot as Shelly was most likely also an angel of God having taken human form for this appearence. Likewise all the other improbable events and perfect timings are explained(thats what God wanted therefore thats what happened "Let There Be Framing"). Another required assumption is that God either is incapable or unwilling to affect the free will of humans (and possibly cylons) directly but has no qualms with influencing them. The purpose behind this charade remains the same as my earlier theory(to scare Baltar into compliance.) That being said Shelly's resemblence to a Six could simply be an extra tack on the board to scare or confuse Baltar. Likewise this resemblence is something that may only be evident to Baltar (ie. the other characters see her as a different person with no resemblence to a Six.) It is possible that it is part of Gods overall plan that the humans never believe that the cylons were behind the attempt to frame Baltar. There is no evidence that God wanted the humans to think that cylons attempted this frame and it is possible that God specifically did not want that. That would explain the lack of this information during Baltar's trial. The evidence is proven false. Why would Roslin and Adama want evidence that proves Baltar was FRAMED for treason surfacing during a trial where THEY charged him with treason, it would SUPPORT Baltar's case.
--[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 11:42, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:Whoa! Slow down, cowboy! I'm happy that you have many ideas, JonesJ3599, but keep in mind that [[BW:NOT|this isn't a chat forum]]; it's hard to read and long blocks of text will dilute your point. I'll try to parse what points you have.

:One thing to read is the article on [[virtual beings]], specifically on the points we have gleaned from aired content about virtual Six and Baltar. We still don't know what they really are, if they are delusions or angels, but the fact that two real beings have imaginary friends floating with them means a lot. The virtual beings aren't copies of the actual ones; their personalities are more militant versions. Shelley was just another Six; her appearance and disappearance is coincidental to virtual Six's actions (as far as we can tell). The fact that the virtual beings have insight and knowledge that often seems to match and exceed that of its host is obvious. When virtual Baltar showed up, however, we can't now assume that virtual Six is a Cylon plot; Caprica-Six was (and is) very confused about her vBaltar. For now, what they are and who they tap into is a mystery. Keep in mind as you read up that Battlestar Wiki enjoys plausible speculation [[BW:FANW|ONLY if it has an official reference from the show]]. Personal theories aren't good here, although you can always ask about the plausibilities of something you noted (briefly) here on a talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:23, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

I will try to briefly address these responses. Also, the reason why is because I really believe this episode deserves better treatment in the whole story arc than it has been treated. Secondly, the reasons and responses I have read simply do not meet a comforting sense of credibility. It's like the third matrix movie... it just didn't work with the first two. :)

* Overall, Baltar's perspective was not solely how the episode was shot. Especially the part that is most pertinent. When Adama called the marines to track her, and Tigh reported that she dissappeared around a corner. Baltar was not present. Adama flipped out "FIND HER!" he shouted!

* There is no way she could have ejected herself into space without causing some decompression damage or alarm or at the very least attracting the attention of some monitoring system.(This is where credibility and plot holes come to play). If the goal was just to say she ejected to space... well, that would have been the more sensible way by showing it. For her to "dissappear" implies that they want us to think there is more to her than just moving at the speed of light, unlocking an airlock, floating out in space and somehow doing all of this in one second. No, that's called a plot hole. The writers do not intend on us thinking she ejected herself and I reject that entirely. She turned a corner with Marines right behind her. She was being watched closely. She didn't have time to open an airlock, eject, then CLOSE it. Who closed the airlock then... from the inside? One of the Marines?

* Shelly is a projection of Baltar's (and his virtual Six's) consciousness, or related to it. She was not working in tandem with the Cylons. If she was, it's a coiencidence (or providence) that she came by and did what she did. I could acknowledge that she worked ignorantly of Baltar's own virtual six... sort of how Baltar chose the right place to attack in "Hand of God", or how Virtual Six predicted that there would be a new cylon-hybrid child born at the end of Season 1. But you can't have Shelly be both in league with the Cylons and also working consciously as an extension of Baltar's conscioiusness.

* JonesJ correctly points out, Gaeta acts independant of a hallucination, or any control of Virtual Six. So either Virtual Six is either of another "faction" (not cylon, not human) or Baltar is unconsciously creating these circumstances. Which leads me to this point:

Six Degrees would be a great episode to introduce the omniscence of the "final five". But more importantly is that we need to get more clarity that the Virtual beings are neither on the cylon nor the human side. And guess what, the final five... I am more and more convinced are behind this, and the final five are not cylons. So what if the other cylons think they are. To say Shelly is just another Six is not sufficient. She does not work in the frame of the cylon power structure. She came, wasted some time and left. You all gotta admit, if we took that episode out... because it has not been really canonized in further episodes... nothing would be missing. Nothing would be lost continuity wise. But I'm appealing that that episode be given more attention than it has. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 19:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

== Tory's Lack of Sleep and "the look" ==
The following excerpt from the podcast transcript not only helps explain Tory and Anders' sleep troubles, but also the weird look she gives him when he's all cuddly with Seelix:
"Y'know notice how frazzled Tory is starting to look here. There was more of an awareness actually in the follow up scene that's coming-that there was a line that was dropped where Laura essentially confro-where she confronts Tory in the scene coming up in th quarters she out-she tells Tory pretty directly, she knows she's sleeping with Anders at that point. Because that that secret was out in the fleet. And Laura was saying, "Y'know your spending more time with Mr. Anders." And Tory kind of blanches. And Laura says, "Y'know that won't, his wife was a hero to a lot of people in this fleet and this isn't looking good and what the F*#$ are you thinking.""

So apparently there's more soap opera action going on than they had time to give coverage to? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:20, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:The little over-talkative birds that haunt my online dreams appear to concur with your assessment, but I'll wait for the Truth. It's Out There. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

::I'm sure if anything is to come of it we'll see it Sunday. It just helped make sense for me of the WTF moment for me when Tory gave Anders that look. The lack of sleep I attributed to the orbital mind control lasers (or whatever that radio stuff is), but the look was just odd. If it helps, RDM's podcast was my only source on the matter, as I generally avoid online birds (especially near the finale) due to their tendency to sing spoilers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:16, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Crossroads, Part I/Archive 1

2007-03-23T00:29:13Z

Baltarstar: /* Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. */

==Promo Pics==
Are [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/gallery/000a9064 here]. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 19:54, 27 February 2007 (CST)
: Tried to go there, but I get the following: Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /drewcypher/gallery/000a9064 on this server. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 08:09, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
::NBC cracked down on websites publishing the highres press photos.. They are still here: http://galacticastation.com/episodes/s3guide/318.htm --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

== Predictions ==

I was too busy drooling over my favorite [[Number Three|Suicide Girl]] to spend much time in front of the ol' crystal ball this week, but I got in a little bit of quality future-gazing at the last minute.
*[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Beau]] locks the Battlestar Wiki, causing widespread panic throughout the Fleet! Without the ability to edit, how are our remaining 41,000 citizens supposed to comment on the shocking accuracy of their beloved seer's predictions? Riots! Fire! Premarital sex! And that's all just the teaser! In the end, however, they will make due and will remember that editing a wiki isn't everything. :)
*Back in February, my crystal ball told me that the trial of Baltar would begin. Obviously, the ball had a little too much [[New Caprican loco weed|Fleet wheat]] and tossed me a prediction for this episode instead. Yep, blame it on others, that's me. The Admiral would be so disappointed.
*We've all seen Caprica and Tigh exchanging bruises in the preview for this episode. This will be the only Cylon-on-human violence we see in the entire episode, and probably in the rest of the season.
*Baltar publically reveals during his trial that Roslin's cancer was cured by Hera's blood and that Hera is half-Cylon. The Fleet goes nuts. Baltar also reveals the plot to steal the Presidency and how it was covered up after the election. I've got a feeling he'll also reveal some shady goings-on during the year on New Caprica that we haven't seen.
*As the trial goes on, Tigh and Zarek are in charge of the military and civilian branches of the Fleet, respectively. They've never been fans of each other and now they're going to lock horns like never before.
*At the end of the episode, the Fleet jumps to a new system. Something sparks a huge shouting match between Zarek and Tigh, during which Gaeta detects... something. I'm not sure what it is, but it's the last marker on the road to Earth. Unfortunately, the Cylons are already there. After reorganizing in the wake of boxing an entire model, the Cylon expeditionary fleet has actually gotten ahead of the Colonials in just a few jumps. Baltar's trial is interrupted by this event and the episode ends on a cliffhanger.
After nearly half a season without them, the Cylons return in a big way this episode. While I'd personally like Baltar's trial to remain as human as possible, I'm afraid you can't have a season finale without the Cylons making a grand appearance and leaving everything hanging in the balance. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:57, 16 March 2007 (CDT)

:(*snif*) No mention of Galvatron? Is he being left to rust somewhere in space by something more evil than he: ''lawyers?'' --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:44, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
::Starscream, obviously. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:54, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Sorry, guys. I thought Galvatron's presence would be obvious, keeping previous predictions in mind. He's in his new Pretender disguise: Romo Lampkin. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 23:58, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
:I'm looking forward to Cylon presence, we haven't seen any Cylons (save for Athena and Caprica-Six) since "Rapture". Or have we? --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 14:49, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

Some thoughts:
Could the strange noises and/or music that Tigh, Anders, and Foster hear be early radio waves from Earth? Are they close enough (within 100 light years) that the earlier transmissions from 1900-present are reaching Galactica? We have been broadcasting radio waves into space for over 100 years. If this is in any way correct, the closer they get to Earth, the more recent the broadcast will be. Tigh says the sounds are coming from the ship... the only thing I can figure is if they indeed ARE radio waves, the ship would have to act as an antenna of some sort to pick up the signal. Just a guess, but to me the sounds were old, scratchy, and very much reminiscent of earlier radio transmission. This also does not explain why Tigh, Anders, and Foster are the only ones who hear it (unless they are 3 of the 5 cylons, of course complete with built-in AM/FM tuners). --[[User:Captain Finlay|Captain Finlay]] 15:27, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I'd go with the latter option, the ship (or something in the ship) acting as an antenna is not possible AFAIK. Tigh listening to Earth broadcasts is a nice idea, but I think such signals would be extremely weak, or at least too weak for Tigh's wireless. The episode does indeed suggest that Tigh, Anders and Foster have something in common, but it would be strange if that turns out to be Cylonness. Anders and Foster can very well be Cylons, but Tigh has a confirmed history going way back. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]]([[User talk:Catrope|Talk to me]] or [[Special:Emailuser/Catrope|e-mail me]]) 10:34, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

==403 Error==
<s>I keep getting a 403 error when I try to look at the Crossroads Pt. 1 page.</s> <s>Never mind it's being cooperative now.</s> Or not. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:27, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

== When will this article be unlocked ? ==
I know the whole site has been unlocked, but this article appears to still be in lockdown mode. How long will we need to wait before permissions are restored?--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 15:24, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:[http://blog.battlestarwiki.org/?p=115 Thus spake Joe]:
:"Even after this, I expect the wiki to be slow and may even have to protect “Crossroads, Part I” from editing even after the site-wide lockdown."
:The day after an episode we've been getting hammered, and I suspect today is no exception. I expect that the traffic will die down enough such by tomorrow that Joe will unlock this page as well. If there's anything you feel needs to be added to the page while it is locked, you could add it here in the talk age (and copy & paste it later, or somebody else will), or create a subpage of your user page (or just a subsection of your user page) to store the thoughts/ideas/analysis/notes. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:04, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::Performance is still extremely sluggish. It works as this very moment, but it's up and down all the time. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:24, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
::Shane unlocked the article. I was honestly going to unlock it tomorrow morning, but I don't see how that would have really helped more not. At any rate, the article's unlocked. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:00, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

==Anders in Uniform==
Hey is Anders a pilot now cause they called him a nick name in the teaser --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 17:25, 19 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378
:No, they called him a [[nugget]], which is Colonial Fleet slang for a pilot trainee. But since you've mentioned that, does anyone have a screen grab of this for Anders' page?--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 23:56, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

I know what a nugget is but you would think Anders would be a MArine considering his history in the Resistance --[[User:Snorkel378|Snorkel378]] 18:00, 21 March 2007 (CDT)Snorkel378

== Act 1 item ==

Since it's not editable, I'm posting here....

# Back on Galactica, in CIC, Admiral Adama orders a scan for any tracking devices that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated Caprica-Six for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.

# Lee Adama enters CIC near Roslin, who is collecting herself in the Weapons Control station. He notices a cup and decanter in CIC, ostensibly belonging to Col. Tigh and smells it. His expression suggests the presence of alcohol.

I rewatched this scene, because I got something different out of it. I think this should read:

# Back on Galactica, in CIC, Admiral Adama, Lee Adama, Col. Tigh, and President Rosline are discussing the baseships. Someone brings Roslin a decanter of tea? Admiral Adama orders a scan for any tracking devices that may have been left on Fleet ships during the New Caprica siege. Roslin insists on asking the incarcerated Caprica-Six for information. When Tigh objects, Roslin snaps back, uncharacteristically.

# Roslin walk to the Weapons Control station to collect herself. Lee Adama notices the cup belonging to Roslin; sniffs it and detects chamalla.

I think that Lee is taking Romo's lesson's to heart from the last episode and connecting Roslin's erratic behavior with her chamalla tea. -- [[User:Disputin|Disputin]] 17:31, 19 March 2007

:Agreed. At first I thought it was Tigh's too, but later it's explained as how he made the connection to Roslin still taking chamalla. That it's sweetened with sugar to mask the taste is explained by the oracle on New Caprica. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 17:57, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

::I haven't listened to the podcast, but I suspect that the ambiguity was intentional. You're supposed to think it's Tigh's, and then realize that it was Roslin's all along. Not that Tigh drinking on duty ought to be anything of a revelation anyway. The man likes the sauce. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:25, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:::You can see Foster handing the can and cup to Roslin. It's not that obvious, and I missed it too at first, but it's clear that it's not Tigh's. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 07:32, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

==Opening==
Has anyone been able to find out why the opening title wasn't in the episode? --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 17:57, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
Also, if we really want a survivor count, we could use what that lawyer gave us as a number during the trial (even though it seems a bit too low). --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 18:02, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
:No, because that's too old. It's also somewhat conflicting (see my comment on Survivor Count talk). That number has to refer to the ''civilian'' population directly after the escape. But that discussion is better for the SC article.
:From the podcast transcript:
:"In case you're wondering, no we did not forget to put the pre-cap on that says, "The Cylons Were Created By Man," etc. etc. Truth is we were pressed for time on these last two and we asked for special dispensation to do away with the pre-cap, as we call it, and also with the main title. So-to give us-in order to give us more time to tell the story and really play this for all it's worth."
:So there you have it. That's what I suspected happened. It sounds like they were really crunched for time on these last two episodes (considering the opening chop running a few minutes long next week). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::I disagree about the survivor count. I think the survivor count has always been and still refers to the number of humans known to exist and/or are independent of Cylon control regardless of military or Civilian status. That is the point, the survival of humanity, so the number after the escape refers to both civilian and military. Also, did anyone take into account the estimated 8,000 people killed when the ''Cloud Nine'' and surrounding too close ships blew up near the end of the episode Lay Down Your Burdens part II which of course happened after the episode survivor count was displayed? After the ''Cloud Nine'' blew we got the number of people who went down to New Caprica. The loss of the ''Clould Nine'' would skew the numbers [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:04, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:::''Cloud Nine'' is accounted for at [[Survivor Count]]. It's factored into the drop between "Lay Down Burdens, Part II" and the population of New Caprica City (plus those left in orbit). And you're right that generally it refers to ''all'' humans. The one at the start of the episode does anyways. But I see no other way to explain Cassidy's numbers. It's really a writing error. Even with that explanation it's inconsistent. I'll reword it a bit to clarify that's a writing error --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:18, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Is the Eight at the opening Sharon Agathon or Boomer or another Eight? Kind of appears that Park has an expression more accustomed to Boomer on her face, as well as wearing her hair as Boomer. [[User:Huh?|Huh?]] 06:26, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I think it must be [[Sharon Agathon]] (Athena) since she's [[Hera]]'s mother. --[[User:Moo|Moo]] 15:02, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::A comment made by RDM in the podcast indicated that there was a moment shot (but later cut) where they saw each other in the officer's head (the bathroom) and had a moment where they weren't QUITE ready yet to talk to each other about the fact that they'd had a dream with each other in it. It's in act 1 of the podcast transcript, if you're interested. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

==Refinery Ship==
Did anyone here Tivo the episode? In the scene on the refinery ship, I thought I saw Olmos in a cameo. He looked like he had the Gaff mustache from Blade Runner. Can anyone check this? --[[User:Whalepelt|Whalepelt]] 09:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
:I haven't checked it, but I doubt it. It's probably just cut footage from "Dirty Hands" or possible even copied from the aired version. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:14, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::I have a copy, and the bit with the scruffy mustachioed man is about 10:35 into the episode. It does look a little like Olmos, but it's hard to tell, and the eyes don't seem quite right. In any case, if he is a Cylon, he could've gone a little further with avoiding looking like his admiral counterpart. :) --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 00:43, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Yeah, I noticed it immediately when watching the scene. But I seriously doubt they that's really EJO. There is no reason for such a camo of a high-profile actor. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:50, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::::Unless, as Saforrest suggested, Adama is ... a Cylon! *cues Cylon theme* :D. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:22, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

== Disagreement on this point in the analysis ==

I took out this line from the analysis by Serenity. There a few points that I disagree with how this is worded:

"[[Racetrack]] continues her history of trying to escape at the first sign of danger ("[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", "[[Occupation]]", "[[Torn]]"). However this time, her Raptor is actually in immediate danger of being destroyed by the Cylons and jumps away at the last moment."

*This isn't the first time that Racetrack has escaped from imminent danger. In "[[Dirty Hands]]", she and her ECO barely escaped from the Raptor before it collided with Colonial One and probably exploded because of the impure tylium fuel.
*She was not running at the first sign of danger in "[[Occupation]]", they had reached their daily time limit on waiting for contact from New Caprica and yes had begun to pick up some Cylon activity. The last thing that they want is the Cylons to know that a Raptor is constantly waiting for a signal. She stayed long enough to send back the message to the resistance and then left to report the good news.
*In "[[Torn]]", we are not told that she and Athena immediately ran away once they saw the dying baseship. She was freaked out as any pilot would, but once they realized that the baseship and the other fighters were immobile, she had more of a expression of confusion than fear.
*In "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", it was the first time we were introduced to Racetrack. Her expression of fear I would think is natural as no human had ever been inside a new Cylon baseship. Considering that the nuke did not dislodged as planned and that Boomer went outside unexpectedly, it probably would freak out anyone.

Anyhows, we can put this line back in later, but I think it needs to be rewritten. I honestly don't think that this character trait is just to Racetrack alone. Boomer in the mini-series did the same thing once she and Helo realized that the Vipers were being destroyed. I would think any smart Raptor pilot would know when to bug out since their ship isn't the most fighter capable.--[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 12:39, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

:-sigh- In how many places do you want to bring this up? I mentioned it on your talk page, because you have an issue with it and then you replied to it on mine. Now you discuss it here as well. That's completely unnecessary.
:People can think that she's a coward or that she's doing her job. It doesn't say anything either way. I agree that "Occupation" isn't really a good example as the time is merely up, but the others are not cases of her running away from ''immediate'' danger. Except for "Dirty Hands" which doesn't fall into this pattern and thus isn't even mentioned. You are the one bringing that into this. Let's just remove it, as your attempts at rewording just twisted into something wrong. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:54, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
::In any event I agree with Life Star's issue of the (mis)characterization of Racetrack. In none of the incidents in which her personal bravery is questioned are an instance of cowardice. I don't know how can anyone get that looking at the scenes.She had a legit reason to get the hell out of Dodge in all of them, including and especially after getting the signal from NC after lurking in the nebula near the planet. The line "[[Racetrack]] continues her history of trying to escape at the first sign of danger.." implies cowardice. Implying a character is a coward when he/she really is not would not be reporting the facts accurately in this 'pedia. It has to be supported by the facts or at least logical argument like everything else.[[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:18, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

== Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. ==

It seems that the events in Episode "Six Degrees of Seperation" just dont matter anymore. I notice a lack of continuity with the events and their relevance in any further episodes with Baltar being potentially implicated in the initial genocide. Also, no one seems to acknowledge that Six looked like the same Six that was in that episode. Finally, the story arc of her dissappearing so quickly has never been explored. Somehow I had imagined these final two episodes might explain the plot holes (or dangling plot lines if you will) of that episode. Any thoughts? --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 18:06, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:Could you explain that a bit more? I just rewatched Six Degrees (Hmm, anyone think that the title could be a reference to the Cylon?), and I don't see it contradicting this at all. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 18:43, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

::Well, Six interacted with Roslyn and Adama and pictures were shown implicating him. Although later those pictures were shown to be doctored up, what makes no sense is why the interaction has not been linked to any of the trial now. For example, no one seems to remember Six being there and everyone is remembering her for the first time being captured as "Caprica" and no mention of "Shelly Godfrey". Has Roslyn, Adama, or anyone else asked "Hey, aren't you the same Cylon we met a year ago who accused Baltar of giving access to the colonial defensive grid?". Anyway, so I just find that episode to be an orphan in this series. It's unique aspects not fitting in at all with the plot. I don't know what the comment about the title referring to Six is supposed to mean. Obviously we all all know it's referring to Six, I certainly see no reason to doubt that. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:31, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:I haven't seen any contradiction. As [[Cassidy]] said to [[Tory Foster]] at the beginning of this episode, they couldn't go after Baltar about his involvement with Six before the fall of the Colonies because they had no solid evidence, other than Roslin's claim. They went after him with what they had: his collaboration with the Cylons on New Caprica, which includes the signed execution order. Also, while Shelly Godfrey's "disappearing" at the end of "Six Degrees of Separation" isn't explained, it doesn't really have any bearing on the storyline whatsoever. (She more than likely spaced herself, thus killing herself and removing her body from the fleet, but that's utterly academic now.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:31, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

::Case in point. You're speaking of them "needing proof". I'm speaking of the storyline, not just the trial. Roslyn nor Adama are responding to the connection to the events in Six degrees. What about that photograph of Baltar in the defense mainframe? What about "Shelly Godfrey"? What about her interaction despite being obviously responsive to Baltar's own choices. And finally, the idea that she just "spaced" herself (whatever that means) is totally not working. You can't kill yourself and then remove your own body, let alone so quickly that you turn a corner with Marines hot on your trail and accomplish this feat. It's far from academic, it's a plot hole that I noticed when that episode first aired and I suspected that this episode would be ignored plotwise. Name one scene in season 2 or 3 where any evens in Six Degrees had any relevance. At the very least, when they were interrogating Baltar and they had him doped up... they never asked him about her. Why? Because that episode stretched the limits of credibility. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
*Shelly Godfrey appeared and disappeared with no explanation and no further event like this has happened again. Cylons have not been known to disappear (or space out as you call it). I can make a stretch that Baltar's "divine" abilities may be related to some greater plotline that simply has not been established. Maybe Baltar is one of the first five. But Shelly certainly is not Caprica Six. Shelly certainly did not "die". She was not resurrected on any basestar. Her interaction with Baltar does not carry over to any of the other sixes. No, She represents some greater unexplained phenomonon surrounding Baltar (or the episode was a plot orphan).
*Roslyn remembered vaguely seeing Baltar with Six, but oops, Shelly looks just like her. Roslyn never asks "Baltar, was the woman on board last year the same woman I saw you with? She accused you of being behind the destruction of the 12 colonies, now what happened to her, and how did she disappear"... something! Again, when Six Degrees ended, I had a feeling that they would just hope we all forgot about that episode.
*Adama wanted an investigation on how she dissappeared... what ever happeend with that?
* This site even tries to explain the plot-hole. From calling her a Cylon-Related Hallucination...which comes with doctored footage that computers can reverse analyze to dialogue which tends to line up with disjointed events...
*Godfrey will have to be explained again in the future. I believe she should be explained when (or if) Baltar ever confronts Caprica-Six. I also believe that Dr. Amorak's demise or something about the Olympic Carrier may also need to be clarified to fill in this growing by the episode plot-hole! --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 01:48, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

::: When I say "spaced", I mean she threw herself out into space (more specifically, she probably found an airlock on ''Galactica'', jumped into it, and vented herself out into space). It's not the magical phenomenon you believe it to be, apparently... And I'm gonna have a chill run down my back when I say this, but it's spelled [[Laura Roslin]] not Laura Roslyn. ::cringe:: -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 05:28, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
:::: Yes Godfrey "spacing" herself .i.e ejecting herself out of an airlock voluntarily (as opposed to Leoben ejected out by Roslin and Athena almost being so) is the most logical explanation as to why they never found her. As to we not seeing her resurrected anywhere if you accept that most likely she walked out of an airlock she was resurrected since at the time (as it is now) the Cylon Fleet was tracking the RTF and their resurrection ships were close. We did not see Leoben resurrect anywhere either, but we know from soken references, most recently when Caprica Six told Roslin when she was first captured in the deleted scene, he did resurrect. So while admittedly we have no hard or testimonial evidence as to her disappearance and resurrection, it can be safely assumed that since she hasn't been seen in the fleet for almost two years, especially after the occupation of New Caprica when the seven known Cylons blew their cover so to speak, Shelly Godfrey spaced herself and was resurrected elsewhere. Also, we haven't heard any references to D'anna Biers either (although D'anna judging from the dream/vision she had was killed by Marines on Galactica.) so Shelly Godfrey isn't the only Cylon that infiltrated the fleet that they haven't talked about. [[User:Hunter2005|Hunter2005]] 14:43, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

*It's been awhile since I've seen this episode but if I recall most of the episode was shot from Baltar's perspective. Basiclly, this episode seems to be partially based on showing that virtual six (or Baltar by proxy of virtual six) has some divine or super-natural abilities, possibly as a lead in to "The Hand of God" and "Home, Part II". Also, the way this episode was shot, it's possible that the entire event was a delusion brought on by the virtual six(whoever or whatever she may be) to scare Baltar into compliance and to convince him that she has super-natural abilities. The complete lack of referrence to these events by other characters would only support this theory(as they would have no recollection of these events since they didn't happen,) as does the last thing said by virtual six when Baltar asks about Shelly "Was she even here?". Virtual Six's motives for doing this would be to show Baltar that he's dealing with more than just a random delusion or a chip in his brain, and to scare him into doing what she wants or fear exposure. If she has complete control over Baltar's consciousness then there would be no reason whatsoever to include the other characters when she could simply cause a delusion within Baltar's head. Many of the events appear to be impossible in the real world. For example Shelly appears allmost immediatly after Baltar angers Virtual Six with his disbelief in her divine connection. Virtual Six would have to have knowledge Baltar was about to call her on her "abilities" making her precognizant since it's likely even Baltar didn't know he was going to snap at her at that moment, yet Shelly's appearence is timed perfectly to the minute. Also the allmost Dues Ex Machina way Baltar is redeemed is perfectly timed with his confession to Virtual Six and occurs due to Gaeta acting seemingly independent of Virtual Six's control. In short Virtual Six either has to be Omnipotent or at least precognizant to pull this off in the real world (unlikely given her later reaction in regards to Hera's "death".) Also even if she could attempt these actions in the real world they would be less effective than simply causing a hallucination, especially since she is attempting to impart a feeling that she has complete control of the world and an ability to manipulate other people (something that's at least probably proven not true by her seeming unaware of Roslin's hiding of Hera, and her anger at Baltar for failing to protect her.) --[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 11:42, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
*Possible alternative. For this alternative we'll assume that Virtual Six is what she claims to be, a divine being serving an omnipotent Being. When you include an onimpotent God in the equation all of a sudden you can throw the physics rule book out the airlock. The issues with Shelly's past and disappearence are now moot as Shelly was most likely also an angel of God having taken human form for this appearence. Likewise all the other improbable events and perfect timings are explained(thats what God wanted therefore thats what happened "Let There Be Framing"). Another required assumption is that God either is incapable or unwilling to affect the free will of humans (and possibly cylons) directly but has no qualms with influencing them. The purpose behind this charade remains the same as my earlier theory(to scare Baltar into compliance.) That being said Shelly's resemblence to a Six could simply be an extra tack on the board to scare or confuse Baltar. Likewise this resemblence is something that may only be evident to Baltar (ie. the other characters see her as a different person with no resemblence to a Six.) It is possible that it is part of Gods overall plan that the humans never believe that the cylons were behind the attempt to frame Baltar. There is no evidence that God wanted the humans to think that cylons attempted this frame and it is possible that God specifically did not want that. That would explain the lack of this information during Baltar's trial. The evidence is proven false. Why would Roslin and Adama want evidence that proves Baltar was FRAMED for treason surfacing during a trial where THEY charged him with treason, it would SUPPORT Baltar's case.
--[[User:Jonesj3599|Jonesj3599]] 11:42, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:Whoa! Slow down, cowboy! I'm happy that you have many ideas, JonesJ3599, but keep in mind that [[BW:NOT|this isn't a chat forum]]; it's hard to read and long blocks of text will dilute your point. I'll try to parse what points you have.

:One thing to read is the article on [[virtual beings]], specifically on the points we have gleaned from aired content about virtual Six and Baltar. We still don't know what they really are, if they are delusions or angels, but the fact that two real beings have imaginary friends floating with them means a lot. The virtual beings aren't copies of the actual ones; their personalities are more militant versions. Shelley was just another Six; her appearance and disappearance is coincidental to virtual Six's actions (as far as we can tell). The fact that the virtual beings have insight and knowledge that often seems to match and exceed that of its host is obvious. When virtual Baltar showed up, however, we can't now assume that virtual Six is a Cylon plot; Caprica-Six was (and is) very confused about her vBaltar. For now, what they are and who they tap into is a mystery. Keep in mind as you read up that Battlestar Wiki enjoys plausible speculation [[BW:FANW|ONLY if it has an official reference from the show]]. Personal theories aren't good here, although you can always ask about the plausibilities of something you noted (briefly) here on a talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:23, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

I will try to briefly address these responses. Also, the reason why is because I really believe this episode deserves better treatment in the whole story arc than it has been treated. Secondly, the reasons and responses I have read simply do not meet a comforting sense of credibility. It's like the third matrix movie... it just didn't work with the first two. :)

* Overall, Baltar's perspective was not solely how the episode was shot. Especially the part that is most pertinent. When Adama called the marines to track her, and Tigh reported that she dissappeared around a corner. Baltar was not present. Adama flipped out "FIND HER!" he shouted!

* There is no way she could have ejected herself into space without causing some decompression damage or alarm or at the very least attracting the attention of some monitoring system.(This is where credibility and plot holes come to play). If the goal was just to say she ejected to space... well, that would have been the more sensible way by showing it. For her to "dissappear" implies that they want us to think there is more to her than just moving at the speed of light, unlocking an airlock, floating out in space and somehow doing all of this in one seconds. No, that's called a plot hole. The writers do not intend on us thinking she ejected herself and I reject that entirely. She turned a corner with Marines right behind her. She was being watched closely. She didn't have time to open an airlock, eject, then CLOSE it. Who closed the airlock then... from the inside? One of the Marines?

* Shelly is a projection of Baltar's (and his virtual Six's) consciousness, or related to it. She was not working in tandem with they Cylons. If she was, it's a coiencidence (or providence) that she came by and did what she did. I could acknowledge that she worked ignorantly of Baltar's own virtual six... sort of how Baltar chose the right place to attack in "Hand of God", or how Virtual Six predicted that there would be a new cylon-hybrid child born at the end of Season 1. But you can't have Shelly be both in league with the Cylons and also working consciously as an extension of Baltar's conscioiusness.

* JonesJ correctly points out, Gaeta acts independant of a hallucination, or any control of Virtual Six. So either Virtual Six is either of another "faction" (not cylon, not human) or Baltar is unconsciously creating these circumstances. Which leads me to this point:

Six Degrees would be a great episode to introduce the omniscence of the "final five". But more importantly is that we need to get more clarity that the Virtual beings are neither on the cylon nor the human side. And guess what, the final five... I am more and more convinced are behind this, and the final five are not cylons. So what if the other cylons think they are. To say Shelly is just another Six is not sufficient. She does not work in the frame of the cylon power structure. She came, wasted some time and left. You all gotta admit, if we took that episode out... because it has not been really canonized in further episodes... nothing would be missing. Nothing would be lost continuity wise. But I'm appealing that that episode be given more attention than it has. --[[User:Baltarstar|Baltarstar]] 19:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

== Tory's Lack of Sleep and "the look" ==
The following excerpt from the podcast transcript not only helps explain Tory and Anders' sleep troubles, but also the weird look she gives him when he's all cuddly with Seelix:
"Y'know notice how frazzled Tory is starting to look here. There was more of an awareness actually in the follow up scene that's coming-that there was a line that was dropped where Laura essentially confro-where she confronts Tory in the scene coming up in th quarters she out-she tells Tory pretty directly, she knows she's sleeping with Anders at that point. Because that that secret was out in the fleet. And Laura was saying, "Y'know your spending more time with Mr. Anders." And Tory kind of blanches. And Laura says, "Y'know that won't, his wife was a hero to a lot of people in this fleet and this isn't looking good and what the F*#$ are you thinking.""

So apparently there's more soap opera action going on than they had time to give coverage to? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:20, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

:The little over-talkative birds that haunt my online dreams appear to concur with your assessment, but I'll wait for the Truth. It's Out There. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:29, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

::I'm sure if anything is to come of it we'll see it Sunday. It just helped make sense for me of the WTF moment for me when Tory gave Anders that look. The lack of sleep I attributed to the orbital mind control lasers (or whatever that radio stuff is), but the look was just odd. If it helps, RDM's podcast was my only source on the matter, as I generally avoid online birds (especially near the finale) due to their tendency to sing spoilers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:16, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Number Eight

2007-03-22T15:33:28Z

Baltarstar:

{{Character Data
|photo=eight.jpg
|seen= Miniseries
|actor= [[Grace Park]]
|cylon= y
|name= Sharon
}}
'''Number Eight''' is one of the twelve [[humanoid Cylon]] models. She is the youngest of the seven known models and generally associated with the name "Sharon" when interacting with humans. Eights are known for being more empathic and compassionate than the other cylons. They also have been placed in the most pivotal missions involving Cylon-human interactions. Eights have been the Cylons with the most extensive human contact, resulting in at least two interspecies relationships and a Cylon-human hybrid child. Humans have particularly been exposed to two specific copies, [[Sharon Valerii]], a "sleeper" agent who served on board ''Galactica'', and [[Sharon Agathon]], a Cylon defector now appointed as a Colonial Officer.

== Sharon "Boomer" Valerii ==
: Main article: [[Sharon Valerii]]''
'''Sharon "Boomer" Valerii''' is a copy initially planted as a "sleeper" agent in the [[Colonial Fleet]]. She is unaware of her Cylon nature and serves for two years as Lieutenant Valerii on ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', where she is assigned as a [[Raptor]] pilot and also engaged in a secret relationship with Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]]. After the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack]], her underlying programming repeatedly emerges which leads her to unconscious acts of sabotage. Growing confusion about her true self result in a deep depression and a failed suicide attempt. After Valerii returns from a successful mission to destroy a Cylon [[basestar]], she shoots Commander [[William Adama|Adama]] in the chest, wounding him critically. She is incarcerated in the [[brig]] and soon afterwards killed by Specialist [[Cally]].

[[Image:bsg-valerii-1.jpg|224px|right|Sharon Agathon (left), Sharon Valerii. |thumb]]

Her consciousness is downloaded and she is reborn in another body. Subsequently, she experiences severe problems integrating into Cylon society and long considers herself more human than Cylon. She eventually works together with [[Caprica-Six]] in an attempt to change Cylon popular opinion about humans and she emerges as one of the Cylon leaders jointly responsible for the end of the occupation of the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]] and later the Cylon occupation on [[New Caprica]]. Following the failure on New Caprica, Valerii abandons her hopes for coexistence with humans and she denounces her past on ''Galactica''.

== Sharon "Athena" Agathon ==
: Main article: [[Sharon Agathon]]
'''Sharon "Athena" Agathon''' is a copy first encountered by [[Karl Agathon|Karl "Helo" Agathon]], when he is stranded on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]. She is initially assigned to seduce him by impersonating Lieutenant Sharon Valerii, as part of a Cylon cross-breeding experiment, but later turns against her people and helps him escape the planet; pregnant with his child during that time. Helo, first shocked by her true nature, ultimately accepts her as the mother of his child and declares his love for her.

Once on ''[[Galactica]]'', she is imprisoned and long seen as a mere object. She frequently provides intelligence, but is severely mistreated by an interrogator from ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' who beats and sexually assaults her. Over time, she earns Admiral [[William Adama|Adama's]] trust by helping the [[Colonial Fleet]] escape peril several times, and she is eventually appointed as a Colonial Officer and marries Karl Agathon. Agathon gives birth on ''Galactica'', but her daughter, [[Hera]], is subsequently hidden from her, because President [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]] considers the baby a threat to the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]]. Agathon believes Hera to be dead for more than a year, but after learning the truth about her child during a confrontation with Valerii, she is able to regain her daughter from the Cylons with the help of [[Caprica-Six]].

==Other Copies==
[[Image:Boomerraincoat Colonialday.JPG|thumb|left|170px|A Number Eight copy at the [[Delphi]] spaceport.]]
*Shortly after the [[Cylon Attack]] ends, an Eight in a pale blue tunic is one of four 'rebirth nurses' who greet [[Caprica-Six]] following her rebirth (this takes place at the same time as the events of the middle or end of the [[Miniseries]], but is seen in the much later episode [[Downloaded]]).
*At the end of the [[Miniseries]], an Eight wearing a Colonial [[flight suit]] appears to be leading a group of Humanoid Cylons who recover the [[Number Five#PR Executive Copy|PR Executive Copy of Number Five]] from [[Ragnar Anchorage]].
*An Eight is witnessed wearing a grey coat at the spaceport at [[Delphi]]. However, she is immediately shot by [[Sharon Agathon]] after noticing and attempting to shoot Helo ([[Colonial Day]]).
*Multiple copies of the Eight model are encountered on the [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] over [[Kobol]]. It is possible that they were dispatched to the Raptor in order to activate some latent portion of [[Sharon Valerii]]'s underlying Cylon programming ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).
*An Eight is among a group of rebirth nurses, possibly the same one that midwifed Caprica-Six, who welcome the reborn [[Sharon Valerii]]. Valerii becomes hysterical after seeing and hearing this copy.
*A copy of Number Eight is seen at the end of "[[Final Cut]]", also wearing a grey coat like other Eights on Caprica, remarking in surprise that [[Sharon Agathon]] is still alive (and saying, "I told you" to the Number Five copy sitting next to her).
[[Image:Eights.jpg|right|224px|Eights onboard a Cylon [[basestar]].|thumb]]
*Numerous copies of Eight are seen on Cylon occupied Caprica throughout the episode "[[Downloaded]]," the episode where it was revealed that she is the eighth in the sequence of twelve Cylon models.
*Several Eights are part of a group of humanoid Cylons blown up on New Caprica by a bomb planted by [[Samuel Anders]] and [[Galen Tyrol]] as they approach a group of Centurions exiting from a Heavy Raider which has just landed.
*Another Eight sits next to Valerii on Colonial One during the [[Cylon Occupation Authority]]'s discussion of the suicide bombing of New Caprica City's power station and the subsequent proposal that harsher measures be adopted. She does not speak during the meeting.
*An Eight can be seen practicing a Cylon version of [[Wikipedia:Tai Chi Chuan|Tai Chi]] in the episode "[[Torn]]".
*Another Eight is among the infected Cylons captured by ''Galactica'' as part of the Colonials's plot to infect the Cylon race with the virus from the [[Lion's Head beacon]]. She and the others are executed by Karl Agathon before the plan can be put into action ([[A Measure of Salvation]]). Because no [[Resurrection Ship|resurrection ship]] was in range, her death was final.

==Notes==
*[[Ronald D. Moore|Ron D. Moore]] stated in an interview for ''TheFandom.com'', "There is no original human Sharon. The idea is not that there was likely an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these models of Cylon were sort of developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said 'You know what? There's really only 12 of you.' If these are the 12, and sort of if you look at them they each represent different archetypes of what humanity is."
*The two notable Eights, [[Sharon Valerii]] and [[Sharon Agathon]], met for the first time in the [[Season 3 (2006-07)|Season Three]] midseason finale "[[The Eye of Jupiter]]". Before that, they were often in the same episode but never shared a scene.
*[[w:Valerii|Valerii]] is the male plural form of the Roman name of the family Valeria. Valerius is the singular form.
*Neither Eight with extended time with the Colonials refers to her lover by his first name onscreen during the first two seasons. During that time, Sharon Valerii called [[Chief Tyrol]] by "Chief" instead of "Galen", while Sharon Agathon [[Karl Agathon]]'s callsign, Helo. Ron D. Moore explained in his blog that no one had ever really called Tyrol "Galen" before, and hearing Valerii say it during her death scene would have distracted from the emotional impact of her death. Moore compared it to the Seinfeld episode when Kramer's first name is revealed to be "Cosmo"; i.e. the viewers would be unused to Tyrol's previously unknown first name. As for Agathon, everybody usually just calls him "Helo". Sharon Valerii referred to Chief Tyrol by "Galen" for the first time, while speaking to [[Cally]] in the Cylon Detention Center on [[New Caprica]], long after their romantic relationship had ended. Whereas Sharon Agathon called Helo by his first name, Karl, in [[The Woman King]].

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Number Eight]]
[[Category:Characters|Number Eight]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Number Eight]]
[[Category:Cylons|Number Eight]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)|Number Eight]]
[[Category:RDM|Number Eight]]

[[de:Nummer Acht]]

Talk:Crossroads, Part I/Archive 1

2007-03-22T06:51:38Z

Baltarstar: /* Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. */

Talk:Crossroads, Part I/Archive 1

2007-03-22T06:48:48Z

Baltarstar: /* Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. */

Talk:Crossroads, Part I/Archive 1

2007-03-22T06:48:19Z

Baltarstar: /* Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. */

Talk:Crossroads, Part I/Archive 1

2007-03-22T06:31:01Z

Baltarstar: /* Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. */

Talk:Crossroads, Part I/Archive 1

2007-03-22T06:29:01Z

Baltarstar: /* Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant. */

Talk:Crossroads, Part I/Archive 1

2007-03-21T23:06:48Z

Baltarstar: Six Degrees of Seperation no longer relevant.

Final Five

2007-03-17T07:16:57Z

Baltarstar: /* Connections between the Colonial gods and Cylon god */

[[Image:Final Five.jpg|right|thumb|300px|D'Anna's vision shows five white-robed figures between each banner ([[Rapture]]) '''Note''': This picture is a production still and is in no way indicative of the identities of the Final Five. In the actual episode they are solid white with no discernible features.]]
The term "'''final five'''" collectively describes five of the twelve [[Humanoid Cylon|humanoid Cylon models]] whose identity, knowledge, or existence has been deliberately or accidentally lost to the known existing seven Humanoid Cylon models.

[[Caprica-Six]], when asked by Gaius Baltar about the five missing models he has not seen on the [[Basestar (RDM)|baseship]] he lives on or on [[New Caprica]], curtly replies that the others do not talk about the subject ([[Torn]]).

==The unauthorized quest for the Five==

A [[Number Three]] copy, which [[Gaius Baltar]] calls by her human alias, [[D'Anna Biers]], repeatedly commits suicide to get glimpses of five white-cloaked beings that she believes are images of the final five. She attempts to draw what she has seen, but has difficulty in doing so ([[Hero]]).

One sketch shows what looks like two men and three women. One is a man with dark hair and a widow's peak, one is a middle aged woman with shoulder-length hair, one appears to be a woman with long hair, one appears to be a man with short, possibly thinning light hair and one appears to a young woman with very short hair. If this interpretation is accurate, that would make six male Cylon models and six female Cylon models in total ([[The Passage]]).

[[Image:FFSketches.jpg|thumb|left|Sketches of the Five.]]
Baltar's ability to see a virtual doppelganger of Caprica-Six (as well as enjoying her company in various pleasant environments) lead him to suggest that he might be using a Cylon technique known as [[projection]]. This suspicion, in turn, makes Baltar begin a personal inquiry into his own nature after allying himself with D'Anna-Three.

The two eventually make their way to the [[algae planet]], where a Colonial structure, the fabled [[Temple of Five]], awaits with possible answers ("[[The Passage]]", "[[The Eye of Jupiter]]"). When the system's dying star goes nova, a ray of light is generated by the mechanisms of the temple. D'Anna steps into the light and suddenly finds herself back in the [[Opera House]] and before the same image of the Five, not persistent. Upon seeing their faces she recognizes one of them in particular, saying in surprise "You... forgive me... I had no idea." She is then pulled back to reality and collapses in Baltar's arms, apparently suffering the effects of a brain hemorrhage. She dies before she can tell Baltar what she saw. She tells Baltar, "You were right," but dies before answering about what. She tells the [[Cavil]] who greets her in the tank that there are five other Cylons, and he will see them some day.

The identity of the person she recognized remains a mystery ([[Rapture]]).

==Interpretations==

While the Re-imagined Series notes that there are a total of twelve humanoid Cylon models, only seven have been seen thus far. Although the Number Threes believe the images they have seen during resurrection and in the Temple of Five are, indeed, images of the final five, the series adds a contradictory interpretations of what is seen and what is truthful.

===Connections between the Colonial gods and Cylon god===

*The Temple of Five was built over 4,000 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], long before the Cylons existed. The [[Thirteenth Tribe]] would, logically, have no knowledge of these automatons in the strictest sense. However, the Thirteenth Tribe has significant prophetic insight, as shown in the works of [[Pythia]]. According to Colonial scriptures, "Five pillars of the temple were fashioned after the five priests devoted to the one whose name cannot be spoken". This may have been another Lord of Kobol, given that on a deleted scene [[Elosha]] noted that the fall of [[Kobol]] and its civilization was due in part to a "jealous god".

*The Prophets of the scriptures may have intentionally set events in motion to cause the creation of the Cylons, or perhaps they may have been aware of their ultimate creation and sought to undermine or control the inevitable circumstance of the cylons existence and their fight against the humans. This would explain why Oracle interactions with Cylons have led directly to prophecies fulfilled. It is possible that the final five may be in fact human priests (or descendants of five human priests) who are also considered by the cylons to the "first" five cylon hybrids. It's not confirmed that the final five are the sequentially last five models to be created. This implies then that the cylons and humans are both a part of a greater plan, which would show a stronger link between their two religons.

*On [[New Caprica]], D'Anna/Three meets [[Dodona Selloi]], a human [[oracle]], who relays a message from Three's God, despite the oracle's association with the Lords of Kobol.

*With this information, there is a strong, but unexplained correlation or connection with the the Cylon God and the Lords of Kobol.

===The Eye of Jupiter and Kara Thrace===

*The Eye of Jupiter storyline introduced an association between Kara Thrace, a human that "doodled" a circular image as a child with no prior derivation (her old apartment on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] has a painting of the image from the episode, "[[Valley of Darkness]]"), and the mandalas or icons of the eye that decorated a temple built 4,000 years before her birth. No further information is revealed other than the prophesy from [[Leoben Conoy]], who told Thrace of an unexplained "destiny" ([[Flesh and Bone]]).

===Illusion or Truth===

*Only the Threes, and no other characters, have seen the visions of what they interpret as the final five Cylons. Like Baltar's virtual Number Six, this may be something other than genuine; the other Cylons themselves [[boxing|box]] the entire line of Threes after her discovery, but whether this is done to suppress the notion or actual information of the final five or to relieve the other Cylons of an aberrant model is unclear.

*As the Temple of Five was apparently built for human usage, the Temple may have only allowed the transitional visions that the Threes see to be more persistent and clear. It may never be revealed what Baltar (or another human) would have seen. While Baltar believed Three and actively participated in her quest, both his virtual Six and a [[Hybrid]] noted that he, not D'Anna/Three, was intended to use the Temple's imaging mechanism as the "chosen one". The human association and significance of the five priests, the god they worshiped, and their connections with the Cylons, Kara Thrace and Baltar are not yet explained.

==Notes==

* The podcast for "[[Rapture]]" confirms that the final five Cylons have not been [[boxing|boxed]]<ref>{{cite_rdm_podcast|episode=Rapture|act=4|id=firstboxing|timestamp=41:47|totalrunning=}}</ref>.

*{{spoilli|According to an interview Aaron Douglas (Galen Tyrol) gave with GoFy Radio, four of the five Cylons will be revealed in the season finale. The interview can be found in the media section of [http://www.aarondouglasfans.com/Media.html Aaron Douglas's fan page]. <ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.aarondouglasfans.com/Media/Audio/AaronDouglas_GoFyRadio_January2007.mp3|title=AaronDouglas_GoFyRadio_January2007.mp3|date=January, 2007|accessdate=|last=|first=|format=MP3 Audio|language=English}}</ref> This information has not yet been substantiated.}}
*{{spoilli|[[David Eick]] confirmed in an interview that one of the major characters will be revealed to a Cylon by the end of the third season. He also said that "I think the audience has to start by asking the question, 'What really defines a Cylon?' That's part of what Season 4 is really going to be dedicated to."}}<ref>{{cite_news|first=|last=|url=http://community.tvguide.com/thread.jspa?threadID=800009378|title=Ausiello Report: It's a ''Battlestar Galactica'' Scoopapalooza!|publisher=TV Guide|page=|date=February 20. 2007|accessdate=|language=English}}</ref><ref>{{cite_news|first=|last=|http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/default.aspx?columndate=21-Feb-2007|title=Ask Ausiello|publisher=TV Guide|page=|date=February 21. 2007|accessdate=|language=English}}</ref>

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:Cylons (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Maelstrom

2007-03-17T07:01:44Z

Baltarstar: /* Questions */

{{Episode Data
| title= Maelstrom
| image= 3X17-Maelstrom-LeobenStarbuck.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 17
| guests=
| writer= [[David Weddle]] [[Bradley Thompson]]
| story=
| director= [[Michael Nankin]]
| production= 317
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-03-04
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| podcast= y
| population= 41400
| oldpopulation= 41400
| prev= [[Dirty Hands]]
| next= [[The Son Also Rises]]
| itunes=http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/stat?id=VWbyALbmqZY&offerid=78941&type=3&subid=0&tmpid=1826&RD_PARM1=http%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZStore.woa%252Fwa%252FviewTVSeason%253Fi%253D218316472%2526id%253D200852806%2526s%253D143441%2526partnerId%253D30
}}

== Overview ==
:''[[Kara Thrace]]'s past comes back to haunt her when [[William Adama|Adama]] has doubts about her fitness for duty.''

== Summary ==

===Teaser===

*[[Kara Thrace]] is dreaming of her old apartment, trying to paint over the [[Eye of Jupiter|strange mandala]]. The dream is augmented when a [[Leoben Conoy]] comes behind her, and the two embrace and begin to have sex, rolling through the white paint that Thrace attempted to use to cover up the mandala. The mandala "pushes" itself through the white paint to reveal itself.
*[[Hot Dog]] looks over to question what Thrace was dreaming in her bunk.
*Thrace meets [[Helo]] in the head. He notes that [[Hera Agathon]] wakes up from frightening dreams as well. Helo suggests a psychologist, but when Thrace declines, he also suggests an [[oracle]] living in [[Dogsville]]. As Helo speaks, Thrace see in her mirror an image of a little girl standing by the hatchway, who appears bruised and beaten. When Thrace looks again for the child, she has disappeared.
*Thrace enters the oracle's tent and finds a small golden figurine of the angelic [[Aurora, Goddess of the Dawn]].
*The oracle, [[Yolanda Brenn]], appears, and tells Thrace to keep the figurine. She asks Thrace to sit before a pool of water. Brenn holds Thrace's hand and begins a reading.
*Brenn knows of the Cylon [[Leoben]] and the dreams. When she repeats the destiny foretold by Leoben, verbatim, Thrace is angered. The oracle continues to repeat Leoben's words which were originally spoken under interrogation ([[Flesh and Bone]]).
*Thrace wonders how the oracle could know what was said. The oracle tells her that her mother, [[Socrata Thrace]], was trying to tell her something.
*The oracle notes that Leoben is the answer, who can see the answers to Thrace. Thrace angrily leaves the tent.

===Act 1===

*[[The Fleet (RDM)|The Fleet]] is orbiting a cloudy gas giant planet as they refuel various ships after the fuel crisis had passed ([[Dirty Hands]])
*[[Samuel Anders]], after the two had a lovemaking session, is asking Thrace to join him for some leave time on another ship.
*He complains that the oracle wasn't helpful, and neither was her mother.
*Thrace notes how the two fought, and the injuries she sustained. Thrace recounts her mothers fear of insects, a holdover from the first Cylon war.
*To get revenge on her mother, Thrace placed rubber ants in her mother's closet, causing her to have a panic attack as she furiously tries to stamp the rubber bugs to death. In retaliation, her mother placed her hand in a door jamb and slammed the door on it, breaking Thrace's hand. Thrace states that it "was worth it".
*During a refueling operation, Starbuck and [[Hot Dog]] are on [[CAP]] when she believes she sees an enemy.
*''[[Galactica]]'' can't see the contact, but Starbuck identifies it as a [[Heavy Raider]]. Colonel [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] notes that [[DRADIS]] information is hard to rely on as [[synchrotron radiation]] around the planet affects DRADIS performance.
*As Starbuck goes closer, she sees a storm system that looks remarkably like the mandala. The Raider flies close and, to Starbuck, appears to strike her fighter.
*Starbuck keeps descending into the storm, against [[Lee Adama|Apollo]]'s continuous attempts to warn her back up.
*Eventually, Starbuck struggles successfully to return to space, but not after, during the descent, she sees flashes of sights of an apartment with her mother standing there.

===Act 2===
*Starbuck is back aboard, but as [[Galen Tyrol]] and his deck crew inspect her Viper for damage, there is none.
*Starbuck's gun camera shows nothing, as several pilots including [[Sharon Agathon]], [[Lee Adama]], and [[Racetrack]] review it. They don't see Starbuck firing at anything but clouds.
*Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] speaks with his son and questions Thrace's competency. The admiral believes she is close to burnout, but the younger Adama believes her "steely-eyed Viper jock" mentality is all that holds Thrace together. The admiral repeats the question: Can she handle the strain?
*Lee Adama and Thrace are standing in the [[memorial hallway]]. Starbuck asks Major Adama to place her photo next to [[Kat]] if she meets her end before him. Likewise, Adama asks to have his photo next to [[Duck]] and his sweetheart, [[Nora]], both lost on [[New Caprica]] ([[Battlestar Galactica: The Resistance]]).
*Thrace asks what Lee and Admiral Adama think of her flight readiness. Major Adama tries to give her encouragement but Thrace is distracted by a wax dripping that looks like the mandala.
*Thrace passes by the Admiral and President [[Laura Roslin]] without noticing them when Adama greets her with an [[Nothing but the rain|old tag line]] they shared before the new Cylon War ([[Miniseries]]). Before moving on, Thrace gives him the Aurora figurine from the oracle's tent as a masthead for his sailing ship models.
*As Thrace goes through inspection of her Viper, she again sees a little girl, this time in her cockpit--Thrace as a girl. Her face is bruised and bleeding. Thrace has flashbacks of her mother and is shocked into stopping her inspection.

===Act 3===
*A visibly shaken Thrace sits by her Viper when Lee Adama goes back to check on her.
*Thrace says she is not going back out to fly, not trusting herself. Adama volunteers to be her wingman to give her confidence.
*Thrace asks about [[Anastasia Dualla|Adama's wife]] and how their relationship was going. After a moment of discomfort after he notes things are going well, Thrace tells him that she is happy that things are working out. Thrace says that, as it was in the beginning, the two are back to being platonic.
*During Apollo and Starbuck's CAP, Starbuck sees another bogey and engages, but no one can confirm it on [[DRADIS]] again.
*Admiral Adama chooses caution and orders the Fleet to [[Action Stations|Condition One]] status, stopping refueling once more.
*Apollo is again trying to flag down Starbuck, but she is entranced once more and again flying downward in the clouds.
*Starbuck's Viper is hit by debris. Her forward canopy window is punctured, she is knocked unconscious, and her fighter begins to tumble. An alarm sounds in the cockpit, and the scene blurs to find a sleeping Thrace shutting off a radio alarm and awaking in her apartment, with [[Virtual Leoben|who appears to be a Leoben Cylon]] greeting her.
*Thrace believes she is being tricked again, unconscious or on a Cylon ship, but Leoben states otherwise.
*Leoben keeps noting how the mandala shape cloud attracts her, and that she has told anyone little about it.
*Leoben tells her of her tendency to cheat death ever since a day with her mother as they materialize to a small apartment, reliving an event six years ago, where Lieutenant Thrace stands before her mother as she reads a letter from a veterans administration. On the wall is a [[Colonial Fleet (RDM)|Colonial Fleet]] medal of honor, ostensibly from the first [[Cylon War]].
*[[Socrata Thrace]] first congratulates her daughter for being the first of her family to become an officer, then berates her for being only 16th in her class and having many demerits.
*Kara Thrace retaliates by discussing her mother never reaching officer status despite serving in the Cylon War.
*The lieutenant sees a doctor's report that tells that her mother has cancer that has spread rapidly.
*Socrata rejects any attempts of her daughter's sympathy, and Kara Thrace runs out the door, vowing never to return. The "real-world" Starbuck begins to cry as she relives the moment.
*Socrata Thrace stares at a filled dish of cigarette butts.

===Act 4===
*The scene shifts. Leoben tells Thrace how her mother waited at her apartment and died five weeks later.
*When Thrace tells her reluctance to return, Leoben presents her with another image, where she is able to walk to her mother's deathbed, Socata has a scrapbook of every doodle and letter that Thrace made, including one with the mandala.
*Thrace tells her mother that something is about to happen, the thing that her mother was preparing her for. Socrata tells her daughter that she is ready as she holds her mother's hand. As she presses Socrata's hand to her face, her mother takes her last breath. Starbuck cries and then smiles at being able to be there to hear her mother's final words.
*Leoben tells her that death is not hard to embrace, that this was the lesson her mother was trying to teach her daughter.
*When Thrace realizes that the entity that has shown her these images [[Virtual Leoben|is not actually a Leoben]]. When asked, he replies that he never claimed to be - he is there to be her guide to see what lies "between life and death."
*The scene shifts back to the cloud where Starbuck fails to climb. She reawakens, but continues to drop and chase the Raider image. The planetary cloud boundary, the point of no-return, also called the "hard deck", is getting closer, upon which the air pressure would crush the Viper.
*Apollo finds Starbuck in her dive and the Heavy Raider appears briefly.
*Starbuck finally calls out to Apollo: "Lee, I'll see you on the other side." As Apollo frantically calls her to wave off, she repeats, in a whisper, "Just let me go."
*Starbuck sees a vision of white light in her cockpit, and she smiles. Viewers also see an image of her as a young girl in the same white light.
*A view from the tail of Apollo's Viper clearly shows the Raider, then Starbuck's Viper appears, chasing it. The bogey vanishes into the clouds, and the view cuts to Apollo, looking straight forwarding, declaring "Visual!"
*Shortly after Apollo gains visual of Starbuck, her Viper explodes. There is no ejection or rescue chute.
*Apollo reports the grim news to [[CIC]]. Everyone, from [[Saul Tigh]] to [[Gaeta]] to Admiral Adama, is visibly heartbroken.
*William Adama tries to work on his sailing ship model, with the Aurora figurine now attached, which fits perfectly. But his anger and grief over the loss of Kara Thrace leads him to destroy the model and begin to cry heavily.

==Bonus Scene==
*The scene begins shortly before Act 3, where, as Starbuck inspects her Viper, she finds hydraulic fluid, and becomes visibly angry at Chief Tyrol. Major Adama moves in to attempt to calm her down.

== Questions ==
* Will Anders blame Apollo for the loss of Starbuck once the news of her death reaches him? ([[The Son Also Rises|Answer]])
* Who is the being that was Starbuck's "spiritual" guide during her dream? Is he somehow connected to the makers of the mandala in the Temple of Five? Is he in any way related to Baltar's [[Virtual beings|virtual Six and Six's virtual Baltar]]?
* Is the cockpit truly damaged from space debris, or is it imagined just as the supposed damage that Starbuck initially believed happened at the first encounter with the Raider?
* Is Starbuck in the cockpit of the Viper as it explodes?
* Is Starbuck truly dead?
* Will Helo experience any form of guilt or regret for showing the picture of the mandala to Starbuck?
* What did Starbuck mean when she told Apollo: "See you on the other side"?
* Who will take Starbuck's place as ''Galactica's'' Viper ace?
* Will Starbuck's death have any lasting effect on Lee Adama and Dualla's marriage?
* Considering the white light that appears to shine into Starbuck's cockpit and what the Leoben-figure mentioned about showing her what lies between life and death, is it possible that she is experiencing the same event that [[Number Three]] had on several occasions ("[[Hero]]", "[[Rapture]]")?
* Is the placement of Starbuck's Aurora figurine on Adama's model ship symbolic to Starbuck, in some way, guiding the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] on their path to Earth?
* Based on what the oracle says, is it possible that the real Leoben model knows something about what may have happened during Starbuck's death?
* Did the real Socrata Thrace see Kara come to her before she died?
* If Apollo never saw the Heavy Raider, what jolted his reaction immediately after it's final pass before Thrace's ship exploded? Is it possible that he did see it only briefly, dismissing it as an illusion from stress. Perhaps, Kara did eject, and was "rescued" by this heavy raider.

== Analysis ==

* Although Starbuck contemplated ejecting from her damaged Viper, the planet is a gas giant and doesn't have a solid surface. A Jovian planet has [[w:Jupiter|winds of up to 700 km/hour]] and may have extreme temperatures in the depths. The duration which her ejection system could sustain her life is unknown.
* The episode brings many story elements of Starbuck's history to a close as everything comes to a full circle, which is a general meaning of a mandala in spiritual contexts. A few of these elements include:
** Admiral Adama and Thrace's interchange of "What do you hear? - [[Nothing but the rain]]". This is first scene that introduced Kara and her overall relationship with Adama at the beginning of the [[Miniseries]].
** The scene between Apollo and Starbuck where she states that they've reached full circle as she is again the hotshot pilot who gives nothing but grief to her CAG.
** Admiral Adama's proposed rescue of her is similar to his actions in "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]" when Thrace's Viper goes down over a hostile moon. However, this time, Lee dissuades his father from the attempt because of the futility of looking for Starbuck's destroyed Viper within a gas giant.
**Thrace's initial reaction and eventual denial to pull the ejection handle illustrated the completion of her endless cycle of fleeing death, which she now embraced with joy.
** Her continued hostility and bitterness towards her mother finally reaches its close as Thrace is finally able to witness her mother's death and hear her final words.
** The final moment before Thrace's Viper explodes, an image of a younger Thrace being engulfed in light could either be symbolism or an event that represents Thrace's return to her childhood innocence.
** Her hostility towards Leoben comes to a close as she comes to welcome the help and guidance of her "Leoben" guide.

*It should be noted that the Leoben in her vision is ''not'' a Cylon, but an [[Virtual Leoben|unidentified manifestation]]. Thrace says, "You're not Leoben." and the manifestation replies, "I never said I was." What this aspect of Thrace's vision means remains unknown.

* Thrace's death can be seen as the close of her original desire to die during the episode "[[Scar]]". However, here she is ready to embrace death and see a new beginning with it, while in "[[Scar]]" her original desire is fuel over despair of her belief that Anders was dead on Caprica. Both episode plots are motivated by a mysterious Cylon pilot.

* Admiral Adama is shown in the middle of building his model ship after the failed assassination attempt and the division of the Fleet ([[Home, Part I]]). The ship is finally completed at the moment of Adama coming to grips with his grief of Thrace's death. In reaction, the ship that was begun during a period of great personal turmoil within Adama is destroyed in the midst of another episode of intense grief and anger.

* Even though Lee Adama and Thrace decided to forge on with their marriages, it is Adama who has found contentment with Dualla while Thrace remained in turmoil with Anders. The scene after another love making session indicates that their relationship hadn't improved much since "[[Taking a Break from All Your Worries]]".

* The figurine that Thrace gives to Adama is an idol of the goddess Aurora, the goddess of the dawn and gentle breeze. The relationship between this goddess and Thrace seems to be highlighted prior to her Viper's explosion as she apparently is engulfed in light and wind within her cockpit.

* The connection and parallels between Major Adama and Thrace are furthered strengthened during Socrata Thrace's death scene. When Thrace confesses to her mother about her fear of taking the next step towards her destiny, her mother remarks that she knows that her daughter can meet the task. When asked how she knows this, her response is almost word for word exactly what William Adama said to his son in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]": "'You are my daughter (son).'" Thus, similar to Adama's son, Thrace is finally able to bury the hatchet with her mother.

* The "Leoben" guide explains that his role is to help Thrace take the next step to the place "between life and death." Interestingly, this is the type of "location" that the model [[Number Three|D'Anna]] describes in "[[Hero]]" when she begins her suicide/resurrection chamber sessions in order to discover who the [[Final Five]] are.

*According to an official statement by Ron Moore, in the scene where viewers show the Heavy Raider image, Starbuck's Viper, and Apollo's Viper, Apollo did ''not'' see the Raider, having visual only on Starbuck.

== Notes ==
*Katee Sackhoff had to sign a confidentiality agreement relating to what happened to her character in this episode.
*Adama can be seen building his model ship in "[[Home, Part I]]".
* The introduction of the goddess Aurora increases the number of known gods within the Colonial religion. As before with the use of names such as Mars and Jupiter, Aurora is the Romanized name for the Greek goddess Eos.
* An aurora is a radiant emission from a planet's upper atmosphere that occurs sporadically over the middle and high latitudes of both hemispheres in the form of luminous bands, thus forming the pattern of the mandala that Thrace sees in her first flight over the planet.
*[[Ron D. Moore]] has a reputation in ''Star Trek'' circles in killing characters in stories that he wrote for the series. The death of a central character such as Kara Thrace appears to uphold this reputation in ''Battlestar Galactica''.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==
''[[Kara Thrace]] sees [[Socrata Thrace]] die in a vision guided by something appearing to be [[Leoben Conoy]]:''
:'''Thrace''': "Momma, something's about to happen, you know that thing you were trying to prepare me for, I don't know if I can do it."
:'''Socrata''': "Oh yes you can, you can."
:'''Thrace''': "How can you be sure?"
:'''Socrata''': "You're my daughter."
:'''Leoben''': "See there's nothing terrible about death, when you finally face it, it's beautiful. You're free now, to become who you really are."
:'''Thrace''': "You're not Leoben."
:'''Leoben''': "I never said I was. I'm here to prepare you to pass through the next door, to discover what lies in the space between life and death."

== Official Statements ==

Information from the [[Podcast:Maelstrom|podcast]]:

*The original script had Kara do three trips to the gas giant. It is during the second trip that she sees the Heavy Raider again, but panics and fakes a hydraulics problem with her Viper, which allows her to return to ''Galactica''. This was the original reason, not the lack of visual evidence of a Heavy Raider, that Lee and Adama had their conversation about her competency as a pilot.

*The model ship Adama was building over the course of the series was a very expensive rental prop which [[Edward James Olmos]] destroyed in an ad-lib expression of Adama's grief over the loss of Starbuck, much to the props crew's dismay as the model was valued in the range of the $100,000s. Thankfully, the ship was insured.

*The original script was meant to be a payoff for the end of "[[Rapture]]" when Helo showed Thrace the mandala. It was supposed to have Thrace face her fear of death and resist its call, while at the same time the overall payoff would be somehow linked to furthering the Fleet's voyage to Earth. After several iterations of the script, [[Ronald D. Moore|RDM]] and company decided to go down the dangerous avenue of killing off one of the major characters.

*The original script had an interior scene of the Heavy Raider as the first place that Kara would wake up from after she is knocked unconscious. There she would find Leoben using a device that would delve into her memories. At the time, however, RDM didn't know if it was possible if the show could revisit Thrace's apartment. Once that possibility was available, the interior of the Heavy Raider was abandoned because of cost and storyline suitability.

*The last scene between Adama and Thrace was originally to have ended on a more sour note. Thrace was supposed to be in a meeting between Adama, Lee, and Roslin, upon which Thrace noted out loud the possible romantic undertones between Adama and Roslin. Afterwards, Adama would dress Thrace down and those would have been his last words to her before her death. The director argued with RDM about cutting this scene out and eventually RDM gave way to allow a more comforting departure between the two characters.

*According to Moore, "Maelstrom" is, for him, the first page of the third act in the series overall. He believes that with this episode, the show is well on its way to completion and is now on act three out of a 4 act series.

== Guest Stars ==

*[[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[[Callum Keith Rennie]] as [[Leoben Conoy]]
*[[Dorothy Lyman]] as [[Socrata Thrace]]
*[[Bodie Olmos]] as [[Brendan Costanza]]
*[[Leah Cairns]] as [[Margaret Edmondson]]
*[[Don Thompson]] as [[Anthony Figurski]]
*[[Samantha Ferris]] as [[Pollux]]
*[[Georgia Craig]] as [[Brenn|Oracle Brenn]]
*[[Erika-Shaye Gair]] as Child Kara

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|Maelstrom]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|Maelstrom]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|Maelstrom]]
[[Category:Episodes written by David Weddle]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Bradley Thompson]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Nankin]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Anastasia Dualla

2007-03-17T06:54:47Z

Baltarstar: /* Notes */

{{Character Data
|photo= Season 3 Dullala.jpg
|age=
|colony= [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]]
|birthname= Anastasia Dualla
|callsign=
|nickname= Dee
|seen= Miniseries
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status= Married to [[Lee Adama]] (formerly dating [[Billy Keikeya]] †)
|role= CIC officer on ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''
|rank= Lieutenant (Junior Grade)
|actor= [[Kandyse McClure]]
|cylon=
}}

'''Anastasia Dualla''' {{IPA|du.ˈɑ.lə}} is the former [[Communications Officer]] of ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''. She is the wife of Major [[Lee Adama]] and, prior to its destruction, was the [[Executive Officer]] of the battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''.

== Biography ==

Dualla's father thought that her enlistment in the [[Colonial Fleet (RDM)|Colonial Fleet Reserve]] was crazy, and he viewed the military as a joke. She signed up anyway because she "wanted to believe in something." This rift with her father would continue throughout her service and the last time they spoke they got in a heated argument; three weeks later the Cylons attacked, and Dualla never got a chance to reconcile with him ([[Final Cut]]). His rejection of her career choice stems from traditional Sagittaron [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies#Sagittaron beliefs|beliefs]] in pacifism, which Dualla does not share ([[The Woman King]]).

At the time of the [[Cylon attack]] she monitors fleet-wide communications. Dualla is among the first to notice the unusually high levels of shipboard malfunctions and failures aboard other battlestars ([[Miniseries]]).

After the Cylon attack, she coordinates Fleet activities like [[FTL]] jumps with Tactical Officer [[Felix Gaeta]]. In this responsibility, she discovers that the ''[[Olympic Carrier]]'' fails to jump with the fleet after yet another jump to escape a 5-day long, relentless attack by the Cylons after their escape from [[Ragnar Anchorage]] ([[33]]).

Due to his attraction to Dualla, presidential aide [[Billy Keikeya]] "volunteers" her to join an off-ship mission to the ''[[Astral Queen]]'' ([[Bastille Day]]). Led by Captain [[Lee Adama]], the mission is to attempt enlistment of prisoners aboard the ''Astral Queen'' in resupplying ''Galactica'' with water following an act of sabotage ([[Water]]). During the mission, the team is taken hostage by prisoners during a jail break lead by fellow Sagittaron and political agitator [[Tom Zarek]].

[[Image:Dee and bee.jpg|thumb|left|'''Dualla''' and [[Billy Keikeya]] in the [[observation deck]] on a date ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]])]]
Freed without personal harm during this situation, Dualla returns Billy Keikeya's affections, and they date during off-duty periods ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]).

When a party of [[Cylon Centurion|Cylons]] boards the ''Galactica'', Dualla suffers a concussion, but survives the engagement ([[Valley of Darkness]]). Later, Dualla aids in [[Laura Roslin]]'s escape from ''Galactica'' after the President's arrest by covering up the tracks of their secret communications coordinating their movements in the Fleet, and getting Colonel Tigh to sign permission to close off a causeway which they use as an escape route. At this time, Dualla seems to take a greater personal interest in [[Lee Adama|Apollo]] ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]]).

Dualla is assigned to give [[D'anna Biers]] a tour around the battlestar as part of Biers' documentary of the ship ([[Final Cut]]). Lee Adama seems to return Dualla's personal attraction during a sparring exercise with the petty officer ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

Dualla's [[avionics]] training helps in building a stable communications package for the experimental [[Blackbird]] fighter ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

Keikeya, apparently attempting to solidify his relationship with the petty officer, proposes to Dualla, but she refuses. Keikeya later sees Dualla with Lee Adama on ''[[Cloud 9]]'' and accuses her of leading him on. Shortly after Keikeya's accusation, four terrorists commandeer the lounge and its occupants and demand the surrender of [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]. When a ruse by Admiral [[William Adama]] is discovered, the [[Sesha Abinell|leader]] of the the terrorists orders Dualla's death. Keikeya intervenes and manages to shoot one of the terrorists, but his target fatally wounds Keikeya before dying. In the same battle, Lee Adama is left severely wounded from a friendly-fire incident during an ill-fated reconnaisance by [[Kara Thrace]]. Dualla promises to watch over Lee Adama until he recovers in [[sickbay]]. When he finally regained consciousness, Dualla was so happy that neither of them noticed Thrace leaving the sickbay with a heartbroken expression ([[Sacrifice]]).
[[Image:Dee LDYBPII2.JPG|thumb|Dualla as Executive Officer of ''Pegasus'' ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).]]
A few months later, still involved with Apollo, Dualla assists in the counting of ballots for the Presidential election. Dualla conspires with [[Tory Foster]] and [[Saul Tigh]] to rig the election in Roslin's favor, indicating that she comprehends the disaster that would follow if [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] is elected. Though the plot initially succeeds, Lt. Gaeta's curiosity leads to Admiral Adama's discovery of the duplicity. Adama covers up the plot but returns the vote, for better or worse, to its actual result, with Baltar being elected to the Presidency. Baltar's first order of business is for the colonization of [[New Caprica]].

== Colonization of New Caprica ==

A year later, most of the crew and fleet have settled on New Caprica. However, Dualla is married to Commander [[Lee Adama]] and promoted from [[Military Ranks (RDM)|Petty Officer 2nd Class to Lieutenant]], serving as Communications and Executive Officer on ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', part of its skeletan crew in orbit around [[New Caprica]]. She answers the communication from [[Kara Thrace]] on New Caprica, who wants to ask Lee for [[antibiotics]] for her, now husband, [[Samuel Anders]]. Dualla's reaction when handing Lee the reciever seems to indicate that he might have told her of his affair with Thrace on New Caprica. While Lee is on the phone Dualla's keen eyes pick up [[DRADIS]] contacts, which gives the Fleet advance warning to the arrival of a large [[Cylon]] fleet. The remnants of the Fleet jump away, hoping to return to liberate New Caprica another day ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

==The [[Battle of New Caprica]]==

Four months after the Fleet has fled Dualla continues to serve as [[XO]] of ''[[Pegasus]] ''([[Occupation]]). After [[William Adama|Admiral Adama]] decides to go through with the rescue operation, Dualla is visually disturbed that he has chosen [[Athena|Sharon Agathon]] to be the liason officer with the [[New Caprica Resistance]] ([[Precipice]]).

Dualla tries to reassure here husband, [[Lee Adama|Commander Adama]] ([[Exodus Part II]]), after Admiral Adama decides to take ''[[Galactica]]'' alone on the New Caprica rescue mission ([[Exodus, Part I]]).

Eventually Commander Adama defies orders and returns to New Caprica to assist ''Galactica'', giving it time to jump away. Dualla, the Commander, and the crew of ''Pegasus'' escape back to the Fleet on evac [[Raptor]]s after ''Pegasus'' is critically damaged ([[Exodus Part II]]).

==After the Second Exodus==
Dualla returns periodically to her old post in CIC, but also has greater responsibilities in shepherding civilians on ''Galactica'' during a harrowing series of journeys through a dangerous star cluster to a planet filled with edible algae ([[The Passage]]). Dualla and Samuel Anders are also witness to what appears to be both a feud and not-so-veiled affection between her husband and Anders' wife, particularly during a boxing match where Major Adama and Captain Thrace beat each other to exhaustion ([[Unfinished Business]]).

Dualla assists others in the harvesting of desperately needed algae for use as foodstuffs for the Fleet. When the [[Temple of Five]] is found and Cylon forces attempt to invade to obtain what is believed to be a [[Eye of Jupiter|special artifact]], Dualla takes the lead from her husband in organizing the ground team for a defense against Cylon ground forces. With [[wireless]] communications jammed, Dualla coordinates observation points with hard-wired communication to watch for Cylon incoming, and assigns Kara Thrace airborne reconnaisance duty.

Dualla witnesses Starbuck's Raptor go down after a near-strike from a Cylon missile ([[The Eye of Jupiter]]). Major Adama soon orders Dualla to effect a rescue of the downed pilot, after being pressured by Thrace's husband, much to Dualla's irritation, given her suspicion of her husband's illicit encounters with Thrace. After a sniper attack kills her partner, Dualla makes it to Starbuck's Raptor and repairs the avionics on the Raptor. Starbuck cannot fly due to severe hand burns, so Dualla, who is not flight-trained, manages to fly the Raptor back to ''Galactica'' with Starbuck's guidance. Dualla and her husband reunite, but the shadow of Thrace's involvement with Adama continues to loom ([[Rapture]]).

After Adama's own doubts grow about the future of his marriage, Dualla confronts him after he returns home drunk one evening. She believes that their marriage is a lie, and says she will not interfere if Adama chose to pursue his relationship with Kara Thrace. Later, Adama convinces Dualla of his love and her importance in his life, choosing to fight for his marriage ([[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]).

When ''Galactica'' houses refugees of the ''[[Threa Sita]]'', among them 51 of her fellow Sagittarons, she contracts [[Mellorak sickness]]. Most of the Sagittarons refuse to be treated, due to a [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|cultural and religious]] aversion to modern medicine, allowing the disease to spread and further fueling the prejudice against them. (A prejudice that Dualla herself claims to understand, as she does not share the beliefs of her fellow Sagittarons regarding medical care and the military). A [[Michael Robert|civilian doctor]], although ostensibly treating them, surreptitiously kills several of them via lethal injection to prevent them from depleting the Fleet's scarce resources. Dualla chooses to be treated by him as she has an unspecified dislike for Doctor [[Cottle]].
Captain Karl Agathon, discovers the doctor's plot and attempts to rescue Dualla. However, it turns out that the doctor has actually treated her, believing her to be an exception due to her military service ([[The Woman King]]).

== Notes ==

*Dualla's counterpart in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] is [[Rigel]]. According to [[Ron Moore]]'s [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/blogs/ blog entry] on April 18, 2006, Dualla is actually more or less directly inspired by Rigel, saying Dualla is "filling the role of another woman in the original BSG series who used to man the communication system on their bridge. That character was called "Rigel" but I didn't think that name worked in the remake, so I gave her the name of Dualla."
*Dualla was known throughout all of the first season and part of of the second season only as "Dualla" or "Dee". Her first name was finally revealed in the episode, "[[Final Cut]]" in an on screen caption during her documentary interview. "Anastasia" means "resurrection" in Greek.
*The last name "Dualla" may be derived from Latin word Dualis, which means duo or two. Another definition of the word dual is: something consisting of two parts or elements or having two like parts. A third and equally possible interpretation is Dualla being named after the Duala people of Cameroon in Africa.
*[[Grace Park]] initially auditioned for the role of Dualla, before being asked to audition for the role of [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], and finally being cast as [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon "Boomer" Valerii]].

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Dualla, Anastasia]]
[[Category:Characters|Dualla, Anastasia]]
[[Category:Characters (RDM)|Dualla, Anastasia]]
[[Category:People from Sagittaron|Dualla, Anastasia]]
[[Category:RDM|Dualla, Anastasia]]

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[[de:Anastasia Dualla]]