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Articles of Colonization

2006-03-15T08:57:10Z

Bahamut:

Signed 52 years before the [[Cylon Attack]], the Articles of Colonization formed the united government of the [[Twelve Colonies]]. This event was apparently in response to the [[Cylon War]] ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/04/index.html#a000025 RDM, April 11, 2005]).

The anniversary of the signing is the [[Colonial Day (holiday)|Colonial Day]] holiday. ("[[Colonial Day]]")

==Article 21==
Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] invokes the 21st Article of Colonization while being interrogated by Colonel [[Tigh|Saul Tigh]] after being rescued from [[Kobol]]. ("[[Resistance]]")

:''Under the [[Wikipedia: U.S. Constitution|U.S. Constitution]], a number of Tyrol's constitutionally protected civil liberties were being violated, among them''
:*[[Wikipedia:Article_One_%28United_States_Constitution%29|Article One]], section nine, guaranteeing the writ of [[Wikipedia:habeas corpus|habeas corpus]].
:*''The due process clauses of the [[Wikipedia:Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Due_process|5th]] and [[Wikipedia:Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_1.|14th]] amendments.''
:*''The various provisions of the [[Wikipedia:Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution|6th Amendment]] guaranteeing a speedy, public trial by jury.''
:''Article 21 could conceivably provide protection to any number of these.''

==Article 23==
Chief Tyrol invokes the 23rd Article to avoid testifying against himself during the investigation into how [[Aaron Doral]] got aboard ''[[Galactica]]'' and accessed the munitions stores. ("[[Litmus]]")

:''This is similar to the rights protected by the [[Wikipedia:Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Self-incrimination|self-incrimination clause]] of the 5th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.''

==Note==
The Articles of Colonization are the Colonial equivalent to the American [[Wikipedia: Articles of Confederation|Articles of Confederation]] (the predecessor to the [[Wikipedia: US Constitution|US Constitution]]), [[Wikipedia: U.N. Charter| U.N. Charter]] and [[Wikipedia: Universal Declaration of Human Rights|Universal Declaration of Human Rights]].

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Government]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Humanoid Cylon

2006-03-15T05:36:19Z

Bahamut: /* Simon */

[[Image:Humano-cylon_group.jpg|thumb|Cylon copies of [[Aaron Doral]], [[Number Six]], and [[Leoben Conoy]] at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]]]
== Overview ==

Following the end of the [[Cylon War]], the Cylons withdrew from Colonial space to a planet of their own. For some 40 years, nothing was heard of them, and no apparent attempt was made by the Colonials to keep an eye on them. The only contact expected between the two was at annual meetings at [[Armistice Station]]. However, while the Colonials sent a repesentative to the station every year, the Cylons did not ([[Miniseries]]).

During their forty years of isolation, the Cylons developed or evolved a ''humanoid form'' that very closely mimics human form, down to the cellular level, but not completely at a molecular level.

'''Cylon agents'''{{ref|name}} have the capacity to emulate many human physical acts, including sex, as demonstrated by the Number Six and Sharon Valerii models.

Cylon agents can be programmed to believe that they are truly human. These are known as "sleeper" agents. Sleeper agents appear to have a low-level Cylon personality that can conduct operations while placing the human sleeper personality "on-hold". The [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|first copy of Sharon Valerii]], known by her callsign of "Boomer" on battlestar ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', had little awareness of her true nature until her arrest for the attempted assassination of [[William Adama]] ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). This sleeper agent conducted or aided in sabotage operations within the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] ("[[Water]]", "[[Litmus]]"). Most agent copies, particularly [[Number Five|Numbers Five]] [[Number Six|and Six]], imitate human personalities, but are fully aware of their true nature.

[[Image:Valerii_optic_input.jpg|left|thumb|A [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|copy of Sharon Valerii]] interfaces with ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica's]]'' [[Computers|mainframe computer]] and communication systems by fiber-optic link. (c) Universal]]
Although they cannot do so remotely or wirelessly, Cylon agents can interface with a computer system or computer network through subdermal physical contact with input cables connected to the devices. Caprica-Sharon connected to the ''Galactica'''s computers by this method in "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]" when she inserted a fiber-optic cable through her left palm and into her arm.

Cylon agent brains are human in appearance, but are apparently still susceptible to damage from certain types of radiation. Upon the death of an agent's body, a Cylon agent transfers its consciousness into another copy of itself. This ability is limited by distance, signal integrity, and proximity to a resurrection node or, in space, a [[Resurrection Ship]] ([[Miniseries]], "[[Flesh and Bone]]." "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]"). Based on [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica Sharon Valerii]]'s conversation with [[Kara Thrace]] in the episode, "[[The Farm]]," it appears that all Cylon agents may share a ''collective knowledgebase'' of data from other active or deactivated Cylon agents. Valerii spoke of a conversation between Thrace and a captured [[Leoben Conoy]] copy in the Fleet. This information would only be known to that now-dead Leoben copy if sharing were not possible. Kara Thrace's call sign, Starbuck, was also a likely bit of information gleaned from the collective knowledgebase that [[Simon]] knew of the Viper pilot, although Thrace never told him of her call sign and used it to strike back at her abductors ([[The Farm]]). Also, during "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]," Caprica-Valerii asked [[Anastasia Dualla]] if she still carried her pocket knife, a fact which would have been known only to the ''Galactica'' copy. When under duress, the copy of Sharon Valerii known as "Boomer" on ''Galactica'' was able to tell [[Gaius Baltar]] the number of remaining Cylon agent agents in the fleet, information that would be impossible to gather without a collective knowledgebase ([[Resistance]]).

Some or all Cylon "female" models may have the capacity to bear children seeded by human males ([[33]], [[Flesh and Bone]], [[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]], [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). The Cylons tested numerous methods of sexual reproduction, yet these failed due to a known flaw in the Cylon agent design. Cylon agents cannot reproduce with each other biologically, and, attempting to subvert this deficiency, they have been trying to interbreed with humans to create hybrid offspring. "Farms" were apparently set up across all the occupied Colonies where survivors, specifically, young fertile women of child-bearing age, were rounded up, placed under heavy sedation and turned into "baby machines" through artificial insemination. However, this method has not met with success. Another drastically different approach was taken by attempting to conceive a child through a bond of love. It seems that [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]'s love-child is the lone success story of the relatively short history of Cylon sexual reproduction ([[The Farm]]).

== Known Cylon Agent Models ==
[[Image:Cylonagentdossier.jpg|right|200px]]
There are twelve models of humanoid Cylons ([[Miniseries]]). Thus far, seven models have been revealed to ''viewers'' as Cylon agents{{ref|dossier}}. However, only '''six''' models are actually known to the Colonial ''characters'' as agents as of the episode, "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]."

=== [[Number Three]] ===

This model was witnessed by viewers posing as a reporter from the [[Fleet News Service]] and was revealed to be a Cylon at the end of "[[Final Cut]]" when a second copy was shown living on Caprica. Of all the Cylon agent models revealed to viewers, the Colonials are not yet aware that D'anna Biers is a Cylon agent as of the season two finale, "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]"

Part of Biers' mission within ''Galactica's'' fleet (which fits her work as a journalist) likely involves the relay of important intelligence within the Fleet, such as the status of the pregnant Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii.

A copy of this model has appeared under the name/alias "[[D'anna Biers]]".

=== [[Number Five]] ===

This model attempts to sow the seeds of discontent or confusion, particularly during crucial life-threatening situations, and endeavors to undermine authority that threatens his objectives. ([[Miniseries]]) Doral models are more covert, assuming an ordinary "everyman" appearance that's blended in what may seem to be insignificant behind-the-scenes issues (such as converting ''Galactica'' into a museum). Of all the models thus far, the Aaron Doral models are the most militant, fanatic and consistent in message and objectives to the Cylon objectives, whether he is dispassionately discussing the fate of humanity with his comrades or attempting to kill or maim Colonials in a suicide bomb attack ([[Litmus]]). Viewers first meet Doral during a tour of ''Galactica'' with other Colonial citizens (possibly the press) as we see the battlestar for the first time at the start of the [[Miniseries]]. The viewers aren't sure of Doral's true identity as the second Cylon agent they've seen until the end of the Miniseries, however.

Copies of this model have appeared under the name/alias "[[Aaron Doral]]".

A copy of Number Five is seen with [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)]] at the end of Season 2, and seems to be in command of the others. While Six and Sharon express concern and warning to Baltar and the New Capricans, Five expresses threat.

=== [[Number Six]] ===

This model utilizes the human need / desire for sexual relations to her advantage. She is religious and monotheistic. She desires to know what it is to be alive.

Typically she is the alpha female, as demonstrated on multiple occasions ([[Miniseries]], "[[33]]," "[[Water]]," "[[Six Degrees of Separation]]").

Copies of this model have appeared under the names/aliases "[[Shelly Godfrey]]" , "[[Gina]]", and "[[Caprica-Six|Caprica]]".

=== [[Number Eight]] ===

The Valerii model is generally a saboteur designed to infiltrate Colonial military units and is likely programmed to use any Colonial munitions to cause havoc ([[Water]]). The Valerii model is the closest witnessed Cylon agent model to show its abilities as a soldier. This model has shown naiveté in many matters. She is apparently not as religious as other Cylon models, but has demonstrated that she can love, and is capable of being impregnated by a human ("[[Six Degrees of Separation]]," "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]"). She may be "defective", as the Cylon programming within the sleeper agent known as "Boomer" on ''Galactica'' conflicted multiple times with its human personality ([[Water]]). Also, the fully aware Sharon Valerii found by [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] on Caprica has fully switched alliances from Cylon to Colonial after falling in love with Helo and is now aiding the Colonials (several episodes, most notably "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]"). Valerii is the third Cylon agent introduced during the [[Miniseries]]. However, viewers do not discover her true identity until the very end of the Miniseries when a second copy appears at [[Ragnar Anchorage]] while retrieving the abandoned copy of Aaron Doral.

[[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Copies]] of this model have appeared under the name "[[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]".

=== [[Leoben Conoy]] ===

Leoben Conoy was the fourth model witnessed by viewers (although viewers would not know until the end of the [[Mini-Series]] that they had already met the ''third'' humanoid Cylon, Sharon Valerii). The Conoy model has shown to be religiously oriented, using dogma and intermixing truth with falsehoods. It was first discovered on [[Ragnar Station]], claiming to be a scavenger / arms dealer ([[Miniseries]]).

He can be likened to the serpent of the [[Wikipedia:Genesis|Genesis]] tale in the Earth [[Wikipedia: Christian Bible|Christian Bible]], taunting people with knowledge then watching as the negative consequences come into devastating fruition. Leoben copies have likely been encountered by the [[Resistance (movement)|Caprica Resistance movement]], as [[Samuel Anders]] recites in jest some comments made by another Leoben copy captured in [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] ("[[Flesh and Bone]]," "[[The Farm]]").

=== [[Simon]] ===

The Simon model was encountered by [[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]] on Cylon-occupied [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]. Posing as a doctor, Simon was actually involved with the Cylon hybridization program. Simon resembles a tall, somewhat thin middle-aged black man who speaks in a comforting strong voice ([[The Farm]]) Unlike other models, Simon doesn't seem to have many military aspects to his physical or mental configuration, and was easily overcome by a wounded Thrace. Simon may be a model based primarily on human intellectualism.

=== [[Cavil]] ===

Brother Cavil provided council to [[Chief Tyrol]] after his maddened attack against [[Cally]]. Despite his disdain in prayer and religous pomp and circumstance ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]), Cavil went through a prayer session with [[Laura Roslin]], the latter apparently hoping that prayer would aid her success in the elections. Another copy of Cavil was seen on [[Caprica]], informing the [[SAR]] team some 18 hours after the Cylons ceased their attack that the Cylons had left the Colonies. When the Caprica SAR team returned to ''Galactica'', Tyrol recognized and identified him as a Cylon agent. For a priest and especially for a cylon, he displays an utter disdain for religion, both the human belief in many gods and the Cylon faith in a one true god.

[[Cavil#Caprica-Cavil|Caprica-Cavil]] alleges that he was sent to ''Galactica'' as a messenger of peace. He relayed what occurred after [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)]] were rescued from the wreckage of the cafe bombing ("[[Downloaded]]"). That they had used their new found celebrity to voice what many in the Cylon population felt themselves... The Cylon annihilation of the human race and occupation of the Twelve Colonies was wrong. Caprica-Cavil told [[William Adama|Admiral Adama]] and [[Laura Roslin|President Roslin]] that the Cylons would go their own way, and leave the Fleet alone.

This ended up not being true — whether or not the Cavils intentionally lied is a fact that remains unknown ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]).

Interestingly, the Fleet copy of Cavil claimed, in conversation with [[Tyrol]], that he had been preaching longer than [[Tyrol]] had been "sucking down oxygen." ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]). Thus, if Cavil was being truthful and assuming [[Tyrol]] is roughly thirty years old, Cavil has been operational for at least that long. This would mean that the humanoid Cylon agents began to come into existence no later than approximately ten years after the end of the [[First Cylon War]], which ended approximately forty years prior to the beginning of the series. Whether Cavil was being truthful, of course, is currently unknown.

== Speculated Infiltrators ==

See the [[Cylon agent speculation]] article for analysis on characters and their likelihood of being a Cylon agent, based on episode information.

==Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models==

In a 10/24/05 interview on "The Chase Show" on the SF webcast news site [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml TheFandom.com] with veteran "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" actress [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0557732/ Chase Masterson], Ron D. Moore is interviewed and directly answers two key questions in the Twelve Models debate and the origin of Sharon Valerii in particular. Here is a transcription of that interview segment.

:'''Chase''': ... I just have to ask something... is there one Boomer that's just human?
:'''Ron''': No, there's not. I mean, the idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were... these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, "Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you... and these are the twelve." And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is. Um, Sharon, in particular — Sharon-Boomer, went through quite a trans-metamorphosis because in the original mini-series script, in the first draft, she wasn't a Cylon at all. She was going to be just — I wrote her just — I wanted a youngish pilot, who was the rookie, who was sort of vulnerable in ways, who made mistakes in ways that you're not used to seeing your heroes on TV shows do, and I was really interested in this idea of the officer, the female officer in love with the male deck chief in violation of all the rules and I kinda thought, going forward, that she and the [[Galen Tyrol|chief]], in combination with [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]], who's really only in the mini-series and one or two other episodes, would form sort of our family unit, that that was kind of a family...
:'''Chase''': OK...
:'''Ron''': ... and actually, after that first draft was written, it was [[David Eick]], my producing partner, who said, "You know what, if at the end of this thing, at the very end when all the Cylons walk into Armistice — into the [[Ragnar Anchorage|Ragnar station]] at the end... if you turn around and Sharon is one of the Cylons, he said, we're definitely gonna get picked up for a series.
:'''Chase''': (laughs) OK... that did make... that really did seal the deal...
:'''Ron''': ... and I just really went... that's a great idea and I realized that, because I'd had laid... I had written a story straight, I really hadn't cheated. There was no hint of who Sharon might be, and it really did suck you in, and really sort of, you believed her as a person first, and then we revealed her as a Cylon.
:'''Chase''': ... Right....
:'''Ron''': ... And so what happened after that was, I assumed going into the first season — well I didn't assume, I just planned... to slowly, over the course of the first year, peel back the layers — that Sharon would only start to sort of discover her Cylon nature by the end of the first year.
:'''Chase''': Oh, God... and it was heartbreaking, watching that unfold, because I loved her much as human, and she was just adorable, with him and then with the kid, it was like, oh, what a great girl, she's um... you know, young and cute, and — who's the actress — and that whole thing, and then you're like, WHAT?
:'''Ron''': Yeah...
:'''Chase''': ... She's the enemy...
:'''Ron''': I know then, she's the enemy, then she's the one that is your most worry, what's she gonna do next.
:'''Chase''': Yeah. You really took us on quite a journey there. I was still hoping for a human one running around somewhere, but no, huh?....
:'''Ron''': No.
:'''Chase''': Oh, well...

With this information from the show's main creative leader, it is established as canon that:

* There are precisely twelve ''human'' Cylon models. The other varieties of Cylon spacecraft or fighters are not factored into this count of 12 models.
* Sharon Valerii was ''never'' an actual human, and neither were the other Cylon agent models.
* The twelve models are based on on archetypes determined by the Cylons that form what they perceive were the specific kinds of human behavior and/or personality, distilled into twelve varieties.

==Note==
*{{note|name}}Viewers initially lacked an authentic term to call the humanoid Cylons during season 1 of the series. Here on the ''Battlestar Wiki'', the descriptive term "Humano-Cylon" was used for a time. Dialogue in several episodes throughout season 2 have consistently used "Cylon agent" to describe the humanoid Cylons. Other names are also used, such as "humanoid-Cylons" (which [[Tricia Helfer]] often uses in interviews, but apparently more for convenience than an official name), or "Bio-Cylons" which is sometimes used derisively by fans of the Original Series.
**Some of the resistance fighters on Caprica refer to the Humano-Cylons as Skin Jobs, a reference to Blade Runner.
*{{note|dossier}}The term "Known Cylon agents" is shown on a dossier on the models shown on [[Laura Roslin]]'s desk on ''[[Colonial One]]'' in the episode "[[Epiphanies]]."

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-13T09:00:14Z

Bahamut: /* We'll Be Back */

== The Cliffhanger ==

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the [[Demand Peace]] movement makes its way to ''Pegasus'' and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow ''Galactica'' (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that ''Pegasus'' brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, ''Pegasus'' may end up doing a "[[The Living Legend, Part II|Commander Cain charge]]" at the start of Season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:::It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. [[User:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]]

:You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own ''guesses/fanfic ideas'' without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::::I believe that the info is coming from [http://greycoupon.livejournal.com/3808.html BIG SPOILERS]. Don't know the validity of it though.
:::::Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from [http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season2b.html here]. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --[[User:LeobenConoy|LeobenConoy]] 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

:::::::: It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::::::::: Well, actually, [[user:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]] was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in ''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'' Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --[[User:Nyiz|Nyiz]] 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== The Peace Proposal ==

I haven't actually seen "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Speechless ==
Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)
[[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|D]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
That was totally awesome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Well Then... ==

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --[[User:Michael|Michael]] 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --[[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection ==

I don't think that the ''analysis'' section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

: ''Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "[[The Farm]]" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".''

Anyone agree or disagree? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: To expand my point further, ''Conoy'' believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the ''Cylons'' share his belief. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== DubyaBaltar ==

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. ''Remember, Remember the Fifth of November''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, Adar said that first. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::See the dialogue section of [[Six Degrees of Separation]] for your answer Sgtpayne. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Does anyone remember... ==

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an ''All in the Family'' episode guide. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Got it. On a side note, there are lots of ''really'' sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Source?==

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mario_Savio This is confirmed]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is [[Wikipedia: Naturalistic science fiction|"naturalistic" science fiction]], after all. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Gina's Scars==
We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on ''Pegasus'' in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Playa==
At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw [[Playa Palacios|"Miss Exclusive"]], though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:She's not in the credits. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Survivor count==
There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "''A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "[[The Captain's Hand]]". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely''"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of ''Part 1'' would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "[[Downloaded]]" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

::::Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about '''thought''', not '''fact'''. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::Really? I had always assumed that it was controlled by mutant space monkeys. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:21, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Cloud Nine bodycount. ==

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.
''
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
**The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
***Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.''

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet.
Or am I completely loosing my mind [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).
::I am a little confused as to what your asking, but I will try and clarify:
::The episode states that after a year, there are about 39,000 people on New Caprica. The Galactica and the Pegasus require about 5,000 crew between the two ships, but at the time of Baltars election, were only carrying about 4,000. However, it is made clear that the two battlestars are operating with skeleton crews - so lets say for the sake of arguement that thats 1/2 of normal, which would put the combined crews at 2,500. There are other ships in the defense fleet above New Caprica, looks to be about ten additional ships, if I remember correctly. Lets say they need 600 crew each (see [[The Fleet (RDM)]], but are also running with skeleton crews, which puts them at 10 x 600 = 6,000/2 = 3,000. Combine that with the battlestars crew, you get 5,500. Add that to 39,000 and you get 44,500. Compare with the pre-New Caprica pop of 49,000 and it looks like about 4,500 died in the Nuclear blast. So, no, the destuction of Cloud 9 was not overlooked, it was indeed factored into the New Caprican population. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 23:30, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Where should this error go? ==
When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, [[Colonial One]] was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but ''paint chips''? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I'd prefer to eschew the fanwankery and note it as the continuity glitch it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:28, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::'Fanwankery'? It is completely plausible that what I said ''might'' have happened, so how can you conclude that it was a glitch. There are many ways paint like that could have come off. Perhaps when they painted the seal on Colonial One they used a paint not suitable for atmospheric re-entry and it got burned off. Maybe there is some sort of corrosive rain on the plannet that solubilizes lower quality paint. Perhaps Baltar didn't like the design on the seal. The point is that even though it was most likely a continuity glitch it is not ''nesscearily'' one. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::::[[Wikipedia:Fanwank|Fanwank]]. It's my new favorite word. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:07, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:: Eh, people... can we stop analyzing why the seal isn't on ''Colonial One''? It's more than likely a CGI glitch -- nothing more. Anything else is just unhealthy obsession. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:43, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== 6's credits voiceover ==
Should it be part of this episode? It seems that there is no discussion of it here or anywhere else. -- [[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 14:426, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:That was a commercial for Season 3, not part of this episode. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:54, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Firefly connection ==

Greenleaf and Persephone; both were planets in Firefly. I noticed the Greenleaf back in Sacrifice, but this episode was the first time that I saw or heard Persephone. It's a nice little homage to Firefly, if it was even on purpose. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 15:20, 12 March 2006 (CST)

:No. You are grasping at straws. "Persephone" is a very generic, widely known Greco-Roman type name, and we only see it on a list briefly. As for "Greenleaf", it has been mentioned like 3 times in dialog, but this is in fact a reference to Legolas from Lord of the Rings (both Firefly and Lord of the Rings appear to have named something after Legolas, independently of each other). However, that doesn't mean we should make a note saying "wow, both Firefly and BSG have a planet named Greenleaf"...because literally HUNDREDS of other books and tv shows have named stuff in homage to LOTR. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== We'll Be Back ==

Before the fleet jumps away, Adm. Adama announces, in McArthuresque fashion, that "We'll be back." So, I was floored to
notice on the podcast for this episode (which I just got around to listening to) that Ron Moore offhandedly mentioned that Edward James Olmos would not be returning for season three. Did anyone else catch that? It was around 25 minutes into the podcast.
--[[User:TomP|TomP]] 1:22, 13 March 2006 (EST)

:It was a JOKE. They were DRUNK. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 00:32, 13 March 2006 (CST)

::Also, the Chief and Colonel Tigh got married offscreen in this episode, and Season 3 starts off 5 years in the future ;) --[[Bahamut|Bahamut]] 03:22, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-13T08:59:58Z

Bahamut: /* We'll Be Back */

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-13T08:59:29Z

Bahamut: /* We'll Be Back */

Continuity errors (TRS)

2006-03-13T08:52:03Z

Bahamut: /* Retcons */

This is a listing of continuity errors in the [[TNS|reimagined series]].

== Acknowledged Mistakes ==

*At the beginning of "[[Downloaded]]" two plaques are shown: one states that the Cylon Attack in the Miniseries occured nine months before the current episode (which is consistent with the other episodes in Season 2.5), while the second reads "10 weeks ago", and then shows [[Cally]] shooting [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica''-Sharon]] in the past episode, "[[Resistance]]". However, it is impossible for this to have happened "10 weeks before 9 months after the attack": 9 months = 270 days. There is another plaque in the episode "[[Epiphanies]]" which clearly states on screen that that episode took place on Day 189. There are 70 days in 10 weeks. 70 days before Day 270 would be around Day 200; well after "Epiphanies", which was the ninth episode ''following'' "Resistance". The ''Battlestar Galactica'' production team has revealed that due to widespread fan complaints pointing this out, the incorrect timeline information on the plaque in "Downloaded" will be altered for the DVD release, as well as when it is subsequently aired outside of the US.

== Retcons ==
*'''[[Pyramid (RDM)|Pyramid]]''': In the [[Mini Series]], pyramid is the name of a poker game. Later on, pyramid became the name of a sports game (similar to [[TOS|the original series]]' [[triad]]), and the card game was re-named [[Full Colors]]. ([[Resistance]])
* '''[[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet numbers]]''': In the [[mini-series]], a total of 40 [[FTL]] ships (led by Roslin) rendevous with ''Battlestar Galactica'' at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]. This makes the count 41 ships, including ''Galactica''. However, this number was enlarged for the series. In "[[33]]", Dualla states: "Jump 237 underway... 53 ships have jumped, 10 still reporting trouble with their FTL drives, including Colonial One." The count offered in "[[The Farm]]" was similar - 24 ships had left to join Roslin's fleet, which was "almost a third" of the fleet, putting the number at about 75.
*'''The ''[[Astral Queen]]''''': In the [[Mini Series]], [[Billy Keikeya]] stated to [[Laura Roslin]] that the captain had 500 prisoners in his cargo hold, and that the ''Queen'' was a cargo vessel transporting prisoners to a prison. In "[[Bastille Day]]", Billy's lines were redubbed: '''1,500''' prisoners were aboard the ''Queen'', that the ''Queen'' was a '''prison transport'''. [[Lee Adama]] would go on to later state that the ''Queen'' was en route to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] during the [[Cylon attack]] for parole hearings.
*'''[[Cylon Detector]]''': In the episode "[[Flesh and Bone]]", it takes only minutes to identify [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]] as a Cylon. However, in "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", he states that complete testing on one sample of blood takes 11 hours. Perhaps it's easier for his test to make a conclusive positive than a conclusive negative.

== Danglers ==
*'''[[Tom Zarek|Zarek]]-[[Ellen Tigh|Tigh]] Plotline''': In the episode "[[Colonial Day]]", it is heavily implied that [[Ellen Tigh]] revealed the location of [[Valance]] to agents of [[Tom Zarek]], and that she intends for her husband, Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] to meet with Zarek's people in the near future. As of the middle of the second season, this plotline has not been revisited.

== Recasting ==
*'''[[Zak Adama]]''': In the [[Mini Series]], a different actor was pictured as Zak Adama. In "[[Act of Contrition]]", a new actor portrayed Zak, and the picture was changed to reflect the casting choice.
*'''Ellen Tigh''': Same with Zak Adama. The picture of Saul Tigh's wife, which Tigh had burned a hole through, was originally a picture of [[David Eick]]'s wife. When [[Kate Vernon]] was cast as Ellen in "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", the image was changed.
*'''[[Richard Adar]]''': In the miniseries, [[:Image:Bsg-baltar-adar.jpg|portrayed]] by [[David Eick]] in a photograph in Baltar's domicile on Caprica. Recast as Colm Feore for the episode "[[Epiphanies]]".

== VFX Gaffes ==
[[Image:1104reverse Scattered.JPG|thumb|left|Mirrored shot of Viper 1104 ([[Scattered]]).]]
*'''[[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] and Pilot numbers''': In the episode "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", 42 Vipers are deployed at a time when no more than 34 could have been serviceable, and with no more than 25 pilots available.
*'''''[[Colonial One]]''''': Half-way through [[Season 1 (2004-05)|Season 1]], the ''Colonial One'' CG model was updated and the seal of the President of the Colonies was added to the hull. However, the reuse of stock footage from the Mini-Series and earlier in the first season cause the seal to continually disappear and re-appear in the same episode depending on what shot is used.
*A shot of '''Viper 1104''' is mirrored accidently ([[Scattered]]).
*In various recent episodes ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]], [[Scar]]) where Viper Mk. VIIs are used extensively the VFX shots used for the Viper launch sequences featured Mk IIs instead of Mk VIIs. This could be because no VFX shots of Mk VIIs launching were completed.

== Dialogue Errors ==
*'''[[DRADIS]]/[[Wikipedia:Radar|RADAR]]''':Starbuck refers to "radar range" instead of "[[DRADIS]]" in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]", when describing the attack plan on the Cylon asteroid base.
**It actually sounds like Starbuck said "Raider range" in this scene.

==Prop and Equipment Errors==
*The little model plane on top of the "Top Gun" mug sported by Starbuck and Kat ([[Scar]]) is actually an [[wikipedia:F/A-18 Hornet|F/A-18 Hornet]].
*The Viper Mk. VII flown by Major Spencer during the first sortie ([[Mini-Series]]) is still marked as "Viper 2276NC" which is the Viper flown by Captain Lee Adama to the Galactica.

[[Image:2276gaff Mini.JPG|thumb|Maj Spencer in Viper 2276 ([[Mini-Series]]).]]

==Crew Visible==
*A member of the production crew, possibly a boom operator is visible on screen in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]].
[[Image:Gaffcrew klgpII.JPG|thumb|left|Crew member visible ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]])]]

[[Category: A to Z]] [[Category: Behind the Scenes]] [[Category: Lists]] [[Category: RDM]]

Continuity errors (TRS)

2006-03-13T08:49:53Z

Bahamut: /* Acknowledged Mistakes */

This is a listing of continuity errors in the [[TNS|reimagined series]].

== Acknowledged Mistakes ==

*At the beginning of "[[Downloaded]]" two plaques are shown: one states that the Cylon Attack in the Miniseries occured nine months before the current episode (which is consistent with the other episodes in Season 2.5), while the second reads "10 weeks ago", and then shows [[Cally]] shooting [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica''-Sharon]] in the past episode, "[[Resistance]]". However, it is impossible for this to have happened "10 weeks before 9 months after the attack": 9 months = 270 days. There is another plaque in the episode "[[Epiphanies]]" which clearly states on screen that that episode took place on Day 189. There are 70 days in 10 weeks. 70 days before Day 270 would be around Day 200; well after "Epiphanies", which was the ninth episode ''following'' "Resistance". The ''Battlestar Galactica'' production team has revealed that due to widespread fan complaints pointing this out, the incorrect timeline information on the plaque in "Downloaded" will be altered for the DVD release, as well as when it is subsequently aired outside of the US.

== Retcons ==
*'''[[Pyramid (RDM)|Pyramid]]''': In the [[Mini Series]], pyramid is the name of a poker game. Later on, pyramid became the name of a sports game (similar to [[TOS|the original series]]' [[triad]]), and the card game was re-named [[Full Colors]]. ([[Resistance]])
* '''[[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet numbers]]''': In the [[mini-series]], a total of 40 [[FTL]] ships (led by Roslin) rendevous with ''Battlestar Galactica'' at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]. This makes the count 41 ships, including ''Galactica''. However, this number was enlarged for the series. In "[[33]]", Dualla states: "Jump 237 underway... 53 ships have jumped, 10 still reporting trouble with their FTL drives, including Colonial One." The count offered in "[[The Farm]]" was similar - 24 ships had left to join Roslin's fleet, which was "almost a third" of the fleet, putting the number at about 75.
*'''The ''[[Astral Queen]]''''': In the [[Mini Series]], [[Billy Keikeya]] stated to [[Laura Roslin]] that the captain had 500 prisoners in his cargo hold, and that the ''Queen'' was a cargo vessel transporting prisoners to a prison. In "[[Bastille Day]]", the Billy's lines were redubbed: '''1,500''' prisoners were aboard the ''Queen'', that the ''Queen'' was a '''prison transport'''. [[Lee Adama]] would go on to later state that the ''Queen'' was en route to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] during the [[Cylon attack]] for parole hearings.
*'''[[Cylon Detector]]''': In the episode "[[Flesh and Bone]]", it takes only minutes to identify [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]] as a Cylon. However, in "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", he states that complete testing on one sample of blood takes 11 hours. Perhaps it's easier for his test to make a conclusive positive than a conclusive negative.

== Danglers ==
*'''[[Tom Zarek|Zarek]]-[[Ellen Tigh|Tigh]] Plotline''': In the episode "[[Colonial Day]]", it is heavily implied that [[Ellen Tigh]] revealed the location of [[Valance]] to agents of [[Tom Zarek]], and that she intends for her husband, Colonel [[Saul Tigh]] to meet with Zarek's people in the near future. As of the middle of the second season, this plotline has not been revisited.

== Recasting ==
*'''[[Zak Adama]]''': In the [[Mini Series]], a different actor was pictured as Zak Adama. In "[[Act of Contrition]]", a new actor portrayed Zak, and the picture was changed to reflect the casting choice.
*'''Ellen Tigh''': Same with Zak Adama. The picture of Saul Tigh's wife, which Tigh had burned a hole through, was originally a picture of [[David Eick]]'s wife. When [[Kate Vernon]] was cast as Ellen in "[[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]", the image was changed.
*'''[[Richard Adar]]''': In the miniseries, [[:Image:Bsg-baltar-adar.jpg|portrayed]] by [[David Eick]] in a photograph in Baltar's domicile on Caprica. Recast as Colm Feore for the episode "[[Epiphanies]]".

== VFX Gaffes ==
[[Image:1104reverse Scattered.JPG|thumb|left|Mirrored shot of Viper 1104 ([[Scattered]]).]]
*'''[[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] and Pilot numbers''': In the episode "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]", 42 Vipers are deployed at a time when no more than 34 could have been serviceable, and with no more than 25 pilots available.
*'''''[[Colonial One]]''''': Half-way through [[Season 1 (2004-05)|Season 1]], the ''Colonial One'' CG model was updated and the seal of the President of the Colonies was added to the hull. However, the reuse of stock footage from the Mini-Series and earlier in the first season cause the seal to continually disappear and re-appear in the same episode depending on what shot is used.
*A shot of '''Viper 1104''' is mirrored accidently ([[Scattered]]).
*In various recent episodes ([[Resurrection Ship, Part II]], [[Scar]]) where Viper Mk. VIIs are used extensively the VFX shots used for the Viper launch sequences featured Mk IIs instead of Mk VIIs. This could be because no VFX shots of Mk VIIs launching were completed.

== Dialogue Errors ==
*'''[[DRADIS]]/[[Wikipedia:Radar|RADAR]]''':Starbuck refers to "radar range" instead of "[[DRADIS]]" in "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]", when describing the attack plan on the Cylon asteroid base.
**It actually sounds like Starbuck said "Raider range" in this scene.

==Prop and Equipment Errors==
*The little model plane on top of the "Top Gun" mug sported by Starbuck and Kat ([[Scar]]) is actually an [[wikipedia:F/A-18 Hornet|F/A-18 Hornet]].
*The Viper Mk. VII flown by Major Spencer during the first sortie ([[Mini-Series]]) is still marked as "Viper 2276NC" which is the Viper flown by Captain Lee Adama to the Galactica.

[[Image:2276gaff Mini.JPG|thumb|Maj Spencer in Viper 2276 ([[Mini-Series]]).]]

==Crew Visible==
*A member of the production crew, possibly a boom operator is visible on screen in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]].
[[Image:Gaffcrew klgpII.JPG|thumb|left|Crew member visible ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]])]]

[[Category: A to Z]] [[Category: Behind the Scenes]] [[Category: Lists]] [[Category: RDM]]

Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2006-03-13T00:13:24Z

Bahamut: /* Location */

==Merge proposal==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

==Which flag is which?==
A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives.

As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif 2 clockwise from Sagittarius.
--[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==New Icons==
What do you think? We might consider making them smaller and removing the image frame and caption, but I'd also be happy leaving them as they are. It's nice to have a place to note that some of the symbols are only tentatively identified with the colonies in question. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:It looks fine. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 09:11, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I like 'em. I'd say smaller, though. Of course... I have my thumb settings to 300px so that screen shots are large enough to be intelligible, so smaller to me would be about 150px or 100px. I also like alternating for balance, but that's just me. I alternate right a left in other articles, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==Residence vs. Tribe==

I think there's a difference between "where a character currently makes their residence" and "what colony they are from". I think "what colony they are from" means "what ''tribe''" they are. For example, Dualla could have been away from Sagittaron for years and lived on another Colony, but she's still from the Sagittaron tribe. In "Bastille Day", she describes herself as "a Sagittaron", not "someone ''from'' Sagittaron".

Anyway, I also think that non-canonical information from SkyOne website should not be used in assuming Stabuck may be from Picon, not Caprica. We should wait until this is said on either the Scifi.com official site, or on screen.
--Ricimer, 16 Sept, 2005

==Outposts==

Ricimer wrote: ''The Colonials actually expanded their sphere of influence over time beyond the original Twelve Colonies to include several outposts, bases, and mining colonies (such as [[Troy]]) in other systems ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html| RDM, January 30, 2005]), though they were apparently minor extensions of the original Twelve Colonies rather than independently functioning worlds in their own right, and when the Cylons overwhelmed the Twelve Colonies themselves no mention is even explicity made about these minor worlds, seeming to take it as a given that the destruction of the Twelve Colonies would equal the destruction of humanity, and that these outposts were not significant enough to pose any challenge to the Cylon fleet.''

RDM's actual comments are:

:Q: "Did the colonies have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "

:RDM: I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the Cylons, so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies.

I think that's a very weak confirmation, and if we're going to include it here, it should reflect the vagueness of RDM's actual comment. I have replaced it with the following:

:Ronald D. Moore has suggested that the Colonies probably maintained some minor observatories and listening posts in outlying star systems, but it is unlikely that ''Galactica'' will encounter them in the course of the series. ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html#a000016|RDM, January 30, 2005])

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 15 December 2005 (EST)

==Scorpion vs. Scorpia==

At present, we have a name card from "[[Colonial Day]]" and the name of the [[Scorpia Traveler]] in favor of "Scorpia", and the [[Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]] in favor of "Scorpion". Ricimer, if you want to make a case for "Scorpion" over "Scorpia", you ''must'' cite an episode quote, and I will not produce it for you. Your uncited revisions are anathema to our goal of accuracy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:34, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:I am sorry, I was in a hurry to get out and didn't have time to wip out my copy of the series companion. On p.86 of "Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion", by David Bassom, there is an "''early'' concept sketch of the flags of the Twele Colonies"; On this, it lists the names "Scorpia", but also "Libran", and "Aquarion". "[[Colonial Day]]" established that these two Colonies are in fact named "Libra" and "Aquaria", in dialog, etc. This evidence has led me to believe that "Scorpia" was amongst some early ideas for Colony names that were thrown around in the early stages of production, but which were later changed; however, the art and props department wasn't notified of the switch, or made a mistake, etc. I'm also inclined to this line of thinking because the props in this scene feature several now-infamous goofs, such as the switcheroo between Canceron, Picon, Leonis, etc., etc. As for the evidence from "Scorpia Traveler", there's also a "Gemini" ship, as well as mispelling etc. which have led me to the belief that certain ship names are just meant for asthetic value and do not necessarily reflect the actual name of their home Colony. In "Home, Part II" it was established that the Colonies used to have "ancient names" which align more closely to the signs of the Zodiac, but which over the millenia have drifted away into their present form. Perhaps some ship captains just felt like naming their vessels after the more ancient names. I don't know. But the main points remain: A) Ship names aren't very reliable as an information source, B) this scene had many goofs in it, C) the official companion shows that this was an early name thrown around, but later abandoned, and several of these early names have been disproven by this point. Therefore, I think "Scorpion Fleet Shipyards", the first ''prominent'' mention of Scorpion/Scorpia, taken with the above evidence, proves that the true name of the Colony is "Scorpion". What's everyone else's consensus? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I'm with Ricimer on this one.--Zareck Rocks 15:04, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I agree with Ricimer, as Cain's mention of the "scorpion fleet shipyards" is the only canonical reference to place when it comes to the scorpio-related colony. It has also been shown, as Ricimer mentions above, that the ship names seem to be variations of the colony names i.e. [[Gemenon Taveller]] and the [[Gemini]]. So we can't necessarily glean the name of the scorpio-related colony from the [[Scorpia Traveller]], for there may also be a Scorpion Traveller.
::However, unless someone can verify this with subtitles, Cain could be saying Scorpi''an'' fleet shipyards, rather than Scorpi''on'', thereby inferring that the colony name is Scorpia (I dare to speculate that the Caprica would have it's own Caprican fleet shipyards(if it did indeed have shipyards)). I don't have the DVDs, as they're not yet available in Canada, but someone should really check this, it could answer this question --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 16:20, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::I've grepped the TwizTV logs, and the Scorpia/Scorpion colony has never been referred to apart from the instances we've already listed. So, here's what that means:
:::#We have a mention of the "Scorpia Traveler", which matches the "Gemenon Traveler". "Freighter Gemini" is a TOS reference.
:::#We have a comment that might be the "Scorpion" shipyards, or the "Scorpian" shipyards.
:::#We have a clear and readable screenshot of the name of the colony.
:::We should not "correct" the name of the colony to what we think it "should" be, when we have unequivocal evidence staring us in the face. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::I'm sorry, but it doesn't really seem like the above evidence is "unequivocal". Thankfully, I think "Resurrection Ship" will make further mention of ''Pegasus' '' flight from the shipyards, and we will probably hear the name again. Best to wait until then. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:05, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::Let me clarify. We have at least seen "Scorpia" spelled out. We have never even ''heard'' "Scorpion", except in a context that might easily have been "Scorpian". In my opinion, the two options here are "Scorpia" or "We don't know". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::Wait a minute, someone out there has got to have the DVD set of the second season, we should be able to determine the definitive name of the scorpio colony from that. Although, I suppose, Peter, that you're suggesting we leave it at Scorpia until someone can check the subtitles. That sounds fine with me. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 22:56, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::How will that tell us definitively? It was only mentioned in "Pegasus", in the ambiguous dialogue mentioned above. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:00, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::Like I said, we stand a good chance of hearing it again in the very next two episodes, so I suggest we leave things as they are, and reach a final decision after "Resurrection Ship, Part II". Although we could get subtitles from the DVD, subtitles can be notoriously innaccurate when it comes to the finer points of spelling, i.e. Scorpion vs. Scorpian. Perhaps we could rewatch Pegasus, and check the inflection that Michelle Forbes uses; I ''think'' she clearly said "-ion" (as opposed to "-ian"). I'll check again; however, even hearing the dialog personally, I doubt this will give a DEFINATIVE answer in ANY form as the actress could have been just slurring it. I don't know. Well, I'll check for the sake of checking. Again, I think we should "wait and see" on this one. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:11, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::I just watched the episode and the subtitles (however inaccurate) do say "Scorpion." It does sound like Forbes says more of an -ion than -ian. Just my two cents. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:30, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Thank you Talos. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:04, 26 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Scorpion would be pronounced with the full vowel "{{IPA|piɑn}}, while "Scorpian" would use a reduced vowel, {{IPA|piən}} or {{IPA|piɨn}}. The latter is what I hear, although Ricimer is right that it could just be "slurring". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:09, 26 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::::I've isolated Michelle Forbes's pronunciation of "Scorpi_n" and uploaded it [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpian.wav here]. Unfortunately, the last syllable is basically whispered and cannot be analyzed for vowel formants. It does sound very reduced to me, however. This is not usually the case for Picon, Gemenon, etc. which are almost always realized with full vowels.
:::::::::::Note, by the way, that the ''animal'' spelled "Scorpion" would be pronounced the same as the adjective "Scorpian", while a colony called Scorpion would be pronounced "Skor-pee-on". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:05, 28 December 2005 (EST)

== Location ==

I didn't want to get into a revert war, so... How, exactly, are the colonies' positions indicated in the Tomb of Athena? I just watched that ep last night and I don't remember any arrows or name tags... If the theory is that the colonies are inside the constellation that shares their name, then I think I'll have to disagree. Not possible. The zodiac constellations are spread about in our sky in a circle, meaning they're not very near each other at all (so if "the Colonies" can be considered some single area of space that's small enough to go from one end to another inside months they need to be closer than a large ring of space encircling Earth) and all the stars in a constellation aren't even necessarily near each other. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:42, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't think the positions of the Twelve Colonies are indicated at all by the tomb of Athena. It's just a map to Earth (Earth being the only spot where those constellations would appear in that configuration). It is interesting that would mean that there isn't a direct correlation between the constellations and the colonies that they are named after... (other than as a rememberance of where they came from, kind of). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:50, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:The fact of the matter is that the Tomb of Athena holographic map to Earth shows constellations made of the symbols of the Twelve Tribees/Colonies; these constellations are '''entirely arbitrary'''; that is, they were designated purely because they resemble the symbols of the Colonies; each planet of the 12 is in ''no way'' in each constellation. Besides, that would mean they'd often end up in separate galaxies. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::Well, no, not separate galaxies, but further apart from each other than each is from earth. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:34, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::: My point exactly, Peter. Well said. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:05, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Can we take the part about all the colonies orbiting the same star out of the article? I think it's pretty clear that they're all separate systems, unless someone has different information. --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 02:42, 12 March 2006 (EST)

:Why do you think that's clear? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:59, 12 March 2006 (CST)

::Mostly because of the use of FTL technology, but also because of the improbability of a star having twelve planets that can support human life. It's discussed elsewhere in the Wiki that it's likely they're all separate systems. Maybe instead of taking it out altogether we should add a caveat about how it's disputed or at least link to the other discussion? --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== More on flags ==

I found this a while ago. A user on Sci-Fi.com's messageboard going by "bescincimevsim" has made some incredible renderings of all twelve colonial flags that, in my oppinion look very good and accurate to what has been seen on the show. It might be worth checking out the [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1310569&Searchpage=2&Main=1310569&Words=bescincimevsim&topic=&Search=true#Post1310569 topic here]. I ''think'' they might be avalible for free use, but then again the guy doesn't seem to be available for contact anymore a he posted only one topic, the one about the flags, then stopped posting altogether in mid October. Either way, I think it should be worth checking out. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 18:05, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:We should not use these. I think they're just fanart. There is a page in the official companion of *early* flag designs (the names are wrong in some cases, etc. so this page of the book is an early draft and shouldn't be used as fact). However, this guy also confuses the symbols of Tauron and Leonis. I mean it's just a guy posting on a messageboard. The Citation Crusade wouldn't stand for it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::The assignment of colony and flag is obviously non-canon, but the graphics themselves are far superior to the ones we're using. We should ask him to license them to us under the CCL. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:56, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::Alternately, if he can be contacted, ask him to create corrected ones based on a CCL.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 14:40, 2 February 2006 (EST)

==Colonial Flags==
The Colonial Flags, as listed on this page, have been matched to their colonies based solely on on-screen evidence. Given their dubious veracity on other matters, I am not prepared to take the Official Magazine's word for it over what we've actually seen — at least not without a discussion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:Okay, then you should know that the flags also match what is written in the Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion. It has a page for Colonial Day that lists the flasg for each colony and it's the smae as the Magazine flag listings, so that's two sources that support my listings as opposed the shoddy on-screen evidence from the episodes. --Ltcrashdown 22:30, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've examined the footage of Colonial Day and QuintusCinna's arguments, and concluded that they aren't very strong. I'm going to revert this back to your version. Do you have a cite for the Official Companion as well? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:35, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here's the info: Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion by David Bassom, page 86, Published by Titan Books, London, August 2005
:::By the way, what was QuintusCinna's source?--Ltcrashdown 22:39, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::For the colonies at issue here, it was mostly conjecture on his part. I remembered his argument having more basis than it actually did. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== We are Gemenese of you Please! ==

I think the way this works (and once we nail it down, we should put it on S&C, probably) is that someone ''from'' Gemenon is a Gemenon, but the adjective for describing them is Gemenese. So, like, a nice Gemenese Rug or something. This is a throwback to the language of Gemenese in TOS, I think. Now... Is someone from Caprica Caprican and "a Craprica" or does that one match the adjective (like I'm from Texas, thus I am Texan and "a Texan" if that helps)? Whatcha think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:07, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:Timeline (RDM)/Archive5

2006-03-12T08:37:21Z

Bahamut: /* Fine Tuning "Black Market" Through "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I" */

Only twelve days between Caprica Boomer's conception and morning sickness? That put's it at the fourth week, which is pretty much before she notices she is late. Sounds like a possible plot hole. Perhaps the caprica segments were not at the same time as the main fleet episodes or Cylon physilology makes them super sensitive to morning sickness. --[[User:Shemnon|Shemnon]] 18:35, 28 Jul 2005 (EDT)

:In fact, the times used here are taken from the captions introducing the Caprica sections in each episode, so a discrepancy is not possible. I too find the interval implausibly short, but that's just how it is, I guess. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:18, 29 Jul 2005 (EDT)

:Roslin might not live to see Earth; although I don't have a recording of the episode, I thought she just said that she would "lead" them to Earth before her death. And since Roslin was responsible for finding the path to Earth (the starmaps in the Tomb of Athena) it might be argued that she's already 'led' them on the right path to Earth...[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:56, 27 August 2005 (EDT)

Re: Home, Part II: I realize that it's been difficult to firmly establish dates during this season, and anticipate that it will only get worse now that the main Kobol's Last Gleaming – Home arc is complete and the story resumes a more episodic feel. As a result, it would be helpful to justify any timeline estimates on the relevant episode's Notes section, as I have done for [[Resistance]] and [[The Farm]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:13, 27 August 2005 (EDT)

== Saul and Bill vs. The ''Evil'' Cylons ==

So wait... The Cylon War started when William Adama was, roughly, ten and Saul Tigh was being born? It then went on for about 10 years, thus ending shortly after Adama would have been able to be in the military (assuming both that he wouldn't lie about his age to get in and that the Colonial Fleet has similar age-restrictions to the US Army--both pure speculation) and when Tigh was 10ish. This is my understanding from reading the time-line. I've frankly not paid much attention to when they mention these things on-screen. However, if this is true, then how did the ten-year-old Tigh learn about Cylon boarding party tactics after the Armistice? I have the (perhaps mistaken) impression that both Tigh and Adama are veterans of the Cylon War, but this timeline doesn't seem to allow for that. What's going on here? Am I daft? This is entirely possible. --[[User:Day|Day]] 04:03, 10 September 2005 (EDT)

== Untangling Season 2 ==

After their meticulous efforts at keeping track of the timeline during the first season, [[TPTB]] have apparently started slacking off this season. A clear timeline is an important resource, however, so let's start untangling things.

*'''Scattered''', '''Valley of Darkness''' and '''Fragged''' all clearly take place within the same 24-36 hours, on Day 51.

*'''Resistance''' takes place over two days, and begins on day 53 ''at the earliest''. Apollo asks Dualla how his father is doing "today", implying that it is at least the second time he has done so. His first chance would have been the morning of Day 52, putting the earliest possible date of this episode at Day 53.

:*Begins: Day 53
:*Ends: Day 54 (earliest possible)

:At the end of the episode, Roslin escapes and Bill Adama wakes up. In "The Farm", Gaeta states that Roslin's escape took place "last week". This is very vague, and means only that "The Farm" begins more than one day after "Resistance", or else Gaeta would have said "yesterday". In a [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/205/deleted2.html scene] cut from beginning of The Farm (during Roslin's arrival on ''[[Kimba Huta]]''), Roslin makes a stronger statement - that it's been an "entire week" since her escape from ''Galactica''. This allows us to constrain the date of this episode fairly well, by substracting a seven day period from the well established possible date range for The Farm:

:*Ends Day 55 (latest, if Tigh were in command for 11 days (the longest probable time period))
:*Ends Day 57 (latest, if Tigh were in command for 13 days (the longest possible time period))

:I thus consider Days 53-54 to be most likely range. This assumption is important, as "Flight of the Phoenix" must be calculated based on the day of Cally's arrest.

*'''The Farm''' begins with Adama resuming command. According to D'Anna Biers in "Final Cut", Tigh was in command for "over a week". I take this to mean 8-11 days, since if it had been 12 or more, she probably would have said "almost two weeks". That puts the beginning of this episode at day 59 (earliest) or day 62 (latest).

:*Begins: Day 59 (earliest) (Kobol's Last Gleaming Part I (Day 51) + 8 days)
:*Begins: Day 62 (latest probable) (+11 days)
:*Begins: Day 64 (latest possible) (+13 days)

:Roslin, as noted above, clarifies further in a cut scene, implying that this episode takes place exactly seven days after "Resistance". Working off of my estimate above, I therefore suggest that the most probable start date for this episode is Day 61, which puts Tigh in command for a 10 day period.

:This also means that Adama spent seven days between resuming consciousness and resuming command. Given the extent of his injuries, this is entirely plausible.

*'''Home, Part I''' begins immediately after the end of "The Farm".

*'''Final Cut''' takes place 10 days after the last Cylon contact. Since there were none since Valley of Darkness (Day 51), unless we count the Roslin Faction's skirmish on Kobol, and the episode clearly takes place much later than day 61, we must assume there has been a Cylon contact at some point ''after'' "Home, Part II", and that it's been more than ten days since then.

*'''Flight of the Phoenix''' features Cally's release from the brig. Since Bill Adama was being lenient when he sentenced her (in The Farm, some time after she would've been initially imprisoned), we may assume he granted her time served. If she killed Boomer on the evening of day 54, her first day in the brig would have been completed on the evening of day 55, her 30th on the evening of day 84. Her welcome-back party was probably that very night.
:*Begins: Day 84 (earliest, if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
:*Begins: Day 87 (latest possible, if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)
:As per "Resistance", we assume Day 84 here.

:The duration of the episode is difficult to determine. We can probably put an upper limit on it based on the progress of Roslin's disease in the following episodes, but in his podcast, RDM notes that the timeline was kept deliberately vague for dramatic purposes:
:<blockquote>The true timeline of how long it would really take Tyrol to actually build one of these things from scratch would probably be much - it would be weeks, realistically. But you'd rather tell the story in one package. You'd rather tell the story, hold the viewer in the moment of the scene, make them invest themselves in the effort and pay it off. And so you can fudge the timeline, you can kind of skate by it. There's no definitive statement in the episode of how long this is all taking. It's kept purposely vague. It's not - there's no, like, y'know, clock going on. No one's mentioning a passage of time really since he started working on the viper. You could probably find cryptic references here and there that might nail it down to a specific timeline - ''maybe''.</blockquote>
:*Although interpreting Moore's comments may not be wise, his notion that the Blackbird would take at least "weeks" to complete is probably plausible. Thus we can guess that the episode ends at ''the earliest'' 14 days later.
:*Ends: Day 98 (if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
:*Ends: Day 99 (if Tigh was in command for 11 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 55)
:*Ends: Day 101 (if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)
:An upper limit on the end date of this episode is provided by the start of "Pegasus". When more information is available we will probably want to expand the date range as generously as possible, given the lengthy construction task in depicts.

*'''Pegasus''' is very difficult to date because of the trouble with the duration of "Flight of the Phoenix". All that can be said for certain is that, since Roslin is still on her feet, it can't ''possibly'' be more than 30 days after that episode begins, and ''probably'' no more than 20. Conceivably, "Pegasus" could have begun the very day "Flight of the Phoenix" ended, with the christening ceremony and Roslin's appearance on Galactica bookmarking the same visit. Otherwise, there were probably several days or more between her visits.
**This is a slightly difficult reading, if only because of Adama's line "Well, Madam President, you picked a hell of a day for a visit" - she didn't pick the day for her visit in "Flight of the Phoenix", the deck crew did.

*'''Resurrection Ship, Part I''' is explicitly stated to take place six months after the fall of the twelve colonies. This badly contradicts earlier information, and there is no plausible place to insert the missing two month period, since Roslin's prognosis is updated before Cally is released from the brig in "Flight of the Phoenix". The episode itself does not appear to span more than a day.

*'''Resurrection Ship, Part II''' resumes immediately from the end of Part I, and appears to span about two and a half days.
:In the episode "Epiphanies", which begins on day 189, Gaius Baltar notes that it has been "weeks" since he last saw his internal six. That puts her last appearance in this episode no later than day 175.

*'''Epiphanies''' should take place very near the end of the life span projected for Roslin in "Flight of the Phoenix". Hopefully more information will be available to date later episodes from that point, but if not, it's probably the last episode that will be dateable with any degree of certainty. For now, we can state that ''at the latest'', the episode ''begins'':
:*Begins: Day 114 (if "Resistance" ended on day 54)
:*Begins: Day 115 (if Tigh was in command for 11 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 55)
:*Begins: Day 117 (if Tigh was in command for 13 days, and thus Resistance ended on Day 57)
:However, it now appears that Cain's "six month" statement will be adhered to in future episodes. [http://galactica.emedian.net/episode/2.13/imagepages/image13.html Promotional photographs] from the episode indicate that Boomer is showing visibly, which is more consistant with a five-month pregnancy than the three-month pregnancy accounted for above. (Boomer was impregnated between Day 24 and Day 36 in the first season.)
::Unless you go with the "Cylons have accelerated pregnancies" argument, which is admittedly something of a cop-out. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 20:09, 14 January 2006 (EST)
:The episode explicitly states that it takes place on Day 189 post-holocaust. The missing two months cannot be accounted for, and must be written off as a continuity error.

*In '''Black Market''', Fisk's assasination takes place "a matter of weeks" after Cain's. Phelan is killed two days later. Apollo's debriefing probably takes place the next day after that.

*Scar opens on Majahual's 29th day of mining operations. During this time period, the fleet has split up so that ''Galactica'' may guard mining operations while ''Pegasus'' shepherds the fleet and provides a less static target. The big question here is, could "Black Market" have taken place during this 29-day span?
**Evidence in favor: The distance from Admiral Adama's oversight would hvae afforded Jack Fisk ample opportunity to become embroiled with the Black Market.
**Evidence against: Both ''Pegasus'' and ''Galactica'' are both seen with the Fleet at the beginning of "Black Market". This means that either the fleet had yet to split up, ''Majahual'' had returned to the Fleet with ''Galactica'', or that ''Majahual'' had been left behind in the asteroid field, defenseless.
***Counterpoint: It may have been necessary for the mining ships involved in the project to offload ore at refinery ship ''Daru Mozu'' before returning to mining activities. In this case, ''Galactica'' could have been escorting a mining ship back to the fleet during "Black Market".
**Evidence against: In the midst of Scar's attacks during the mining operation, Lee Adama would have been a poor choice to lead the investigation into Fisk's murder, since his skills as CAG were in greater demand with the Viper squadrons.
:So, could "Epiphanies" have as well?
:*Evidence in favor: Thrace spends most of her time in "Epiphanies" onboard ''Galactica''. The mining operations give her an excuse to be on ''Galactica'' despite her nominal position as CAG of ''Pegasus''.
:*Evidence against: Roslin spent what were very nearly her last days in ''Galactica'''s infirmary. If ''Galactica'' had been in a combat situation at the time, this would not have been a good choice.

*Not much information is available to pin down the date of '''Sacrifice'''.

*'''The Captain's Hand''' gives us two clues as to its date:
**It has been "almost a month" since Lee Adama was wounded in "Sacrifice".
**Baltar's initial projection of the fleet's population trends took place "over seven months ago". This was ''before'' the arrival of ''Pegasus'', since he has to factor the crew of that ship in afterwards.
***Note that this quite explicitly contradicts information given on the date of the presidential election given throughout the first season (seven months from "Bastille Day", six moths from "Colonial Day") - clearly, the election should already have taken place by now.

*''Galactica''-Valerii's resurrection in '''Downloaded''' takes place ten weeks after her death in "Resistance", which was firmly dated to be absolutely no later than Day 57, and probably no later than Day 54, above. That would put "Downloaded" at around Day 124, which explicitly contradicts almost every other piece of timeline information provided since "Resurrection Ship, Part I".
**[[Hera]]'s birth apparently takes place nine months after the destruction of the twelve colonies, setting the date at roughly Day 270. This makes her birth about a month premature (Valerii was impregnated sometime between Day 24 and Day 36). This is at least in line with the post-"Resurrection Ship" timeline.
**Is it possible that the scenes on Cylon-ocupied Caprica and in The Fleet do not take place concurrently?
***Downloaded denotes both Caprica and Galactica as "present day". --Redwall
***They've pretty much established that we're at "Month 9". 10 weeks ago? A month passed between "Sacrifice" and "Captain's Hand", another during Scar, and at least two before that; that would put her death in the Cain Trilogy! --->This is a goof!--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:16, 24 February 2006 (EST)
**Number Three states that Thrace was on Caprica "a couple of weeks ago". It's not entirely clear how long "The Farm" lasted, but it was clearly many months ago - Galactica-Valerii wasn't even showing in that episode, and she gives birth here.

*'''Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I''' gives us many clues.
**Zarek states that the people of the fleet have been "cooped up in metal boxes for nine months".
**Tyrol has been having nightmares for two weeks.
**The episode opens on the first day of the presidential debates. James MacManus tells us that Baltar declared his candidacy a month ago, and that the polls will open in two weeks.
**Simultaneously, Apollo remarks that the raptor pilots will be missing five days of debate. This would seem to indicate that he expects their return within that time span.
**Roslin, Foster, Baltar and Zarek are seen reading coverage of the debates the following morning.
**Immediately afterwards, we see the Raptor team check in and make their first jump.
**A series of events take place whose timeline is somewhat indeterminate.
**We then see Starbuck's team prepping for their final jump. This is intercut with the final presidential debate, during which MacManus states that the polls are set to open in three days.
:So, we can conclude the following:
:*Day 240: "The Captain's Hand" ends with Baltar's announcement of candidacy.
:*Day 270: Opening debate.
:*Day 271: Candidates review media coverage, Raptors depart for Caprica.
:*Day 281: Final debate. Raptors arrive at Caprica.
:*Day 284: Polls open (projected).

:Comments: Apollo's "five day" comment is confusing, since the Raptor team was apparently only halfway there by LDYB1 + 5, and at their rate of travel couldn't be expected to return until LDYB1 + 22 days.
:If the Raptors were only making ten jumps, as Gaeta tells us, this means that they were only making one jump per day. Although we've never seen raptors operating at such a long range before, it still seems like a slower rate than one would expect.

'''Summary of Known Information:'''
*KLG, pt. II, Scattered, Valley of Darkness, Fragged - Day 51
*The Farm: Duration unknown. Begins 8-13 days after KLG, pt. II (probably no more than 11)
*Resistance: Covers 2 days. Ends 7 days before The Farm.
*Flight of the Phoenix: Duration is at least 14 days. Begins 30 days after Resistance.
*Resurrection Ship, Part II: Six's last appearance is at least 14 days before the beginning of "Epiphanies".
*Epiphanies: Should begin less than 30 days after Flight of the Phoenix.
*Epiphanies: Begins Day 189
*Black Market: Begins less than 60 days after Cain's assasination.
*The Captain's Hand: Thrace was assigned to ''Pegasus'' before Adama, but not by long - she was only on board for four days prior to the Battle of the Binary Star System.
*The Captain's Hand: Begins after Thrace's assignment, and "almost a month" after "Sacrifice". Probably between 21 and 29 days.
*The Captain's Hand: Baltar's comment about population statistics is at least 7.5 months (225 days) post-attack.
*Downloaded: Begins nine months post-holocaust (270 days). This is the most likely of several conflicting pieces of information.
*Lay Down Your Burdens, Part 1: Begins 30 days after the end of "The Captain's Hand."
*Lay Down Your Burdens, Part 1: One day later, Zarek states that it's about nine-months post-holocaust.
*Lay Down Your Burdens, Part 1: Ends 11 days after the first debates.

''More to come.'' --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:39, 11 December 2005 (EST)

===How You Can Help===
I need thoughts on the following:
*How many days was Kara Thrace at the Farm on Caprica?
*How many days do both parts of "Home" span?

===Further cleanup===

Firstly, I'm thinking that "Epiphanies" will take place exactly 30 days after "Flight of the Phoenix" (getting it down to the wire, last possible moment to save Roslin, etc). However, I used to think "Flight of the Phoenix" happened on day 86, now it's been moved to day 89 (I don't understand the reasoning), and FotP's date is based on Cally's arrest at the end of "Resistance", however recently the deleted scenes revealed the "The Farm" takes place one week after "Fragged". I'm not adept enough at this to sort it all out, maybe someone else can. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:58, 10 December 2005 (EST)

:Which scene? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:33, 10 December 2005 (EST)

::During the Roslin halucination scene in "Resistance", I believe; she says that the Quorum has been unsure of whether to support her or not for "a week now". Granted, it was a dream sequence, but I think it accurately reflects what the tone of the episode was.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:07, 10 December 2005 (EST)

:::Oh, you meant The Farm, which wasn't a hallucination. That's helpful. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:01, 11 December 2005 (EST)

== 6 months? ==

I thought I heard "Is that what you two have been doing out here for the last '''six months'''?" (following by something about philosophical debates and not having that luxury in time of war) from Cain on Colonial One. 180 days is a lot, so I thought I would mention it instead of add it, since I might just have heard incorrectly. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 21:34, 7 January 2006 (EST)

:See [[Resurrection Ship, Part I#Analysis]]. Her comment cannot possibly be correct, but on the other hand, she was speaking in haste and might have been exagerating for dramatic effect. Pegasus and Resurrection Ship almost certainly take place three months and change since the attack. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:23, 7 January 2006 (EST)

Further, in "[[Final Cut]]" D'Anna Biers states that Col. Tigh was in command of Galactica for "over a week"--->which is from "Scattered" to "Resistance" (maybe "The Farm"). I'm going to be liberal with this and say that was 13 days at most (obviously, this is probably not this case). Theorizing here: We know that Col. Tigh took command on Day 51 (on screen Fact), and that may have been in "command" for at most 14 days-->Resistance takes place on Day 65ish. Cally is given 30 days in the brig, gets out in "Flight of the Phoenix" which begins on Day 85ish then. Now, RDM did say that "weeks" pass during Flight of the Phoenix, which we always interpretted as "at least two weeks". In the same episode, Roslin is told that she has one month (30 days), ''tops'', to live. "Pegasus" could have occured right after this. Anyway, "Epiphanies" now says that it takes place on Day 189? Okay, subtract 14 days for the two weeks Six was gone; that's 175. At LEAST two days pass during the Cain trilogy; so 173. --->When does "Flight of the Phoenix" end? That's the question. Well, subtract 30 from 173 and we get 143. You know, no matter how many ways I look at it, I'm suspecting they're trying to pull a full-blown '''retcon''' on us, because they're apparently saying that "Flight of the Phoenix" from beginning to end lasted '''two months'''. '''We know as stated fact that the Presidential elections are taking place on Day 222''' (give or take a week). So unless in an episode stated to take place 30 days from now, there is an election, this is just one of the biggest goofs we've ever had. Thoughts?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:13, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:Yes, that's where it stands. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:37, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::Who says FOTP didn't take 2 months? They were building a frakking ship from scratch, after all. Granted, its the biggest leap we've seen in a single episode, but is there evidence to the contrary? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::Yes. Roslin gets her one-month prognosis ''before'' Cally's release from the brig, which we can firmly date. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::Also, remember that Laura was '''''starting''''' her education-related tour thingee 189 days before Ephiphanies. I am pretty sure that she was almost ENDING it during the miniseries. So, I think we can safely say that Ephiphanies is not happening on day 189, but rather, before it. Granted, its probably not more than a week or two, but that week could be what we're missing to make the timeline coherent. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::In his podcast, Moore states the the flashback scenes were meant to take place in between Roslin's diagnosis and her departure for Galactica, which was all in the span of one day. He admits that the timeline has to be fudged a bit to get Baltar and Six on the scene, but it was a very short time span. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::Furthermore, however, I think that we're missing gaps that occur between episodes. For instance, is there evidence that KLG took place right after Colonial Day? We listed a one day gap, but what are we basing that on? There could be a week gap there and we wouldn't know it.
:::There is very firm evidence for all the first season dating, including Colonial Day and Kobol's Last Gleaming. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

::I think we need to list the things we DO know (colonial day takes place on day 47, there is a 30 day gap between resistance and the beginning of FOTP, and Ephiphanies takes place in the 180 day range, etc.) and then rebuild the timeline from there, working in reasonable gaps. We are saying that there are continuity errors due to Ephiphanies, but I doubt RDM would make a blunder like that. We just think there is a continuity error because we've been speculating ao many dates and then taking them for fact. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:01, 21 January 2006 (EST)
:::I have been maintaining exactly such a list at the bottom of my lengthy discussion on the topic. I encourage you to read it fully. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:39, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:::Some might call this cavalier, but this is what I ''propose'' as what I would like: Firstly, we're going to bludgeon Ron D. Moore's blog with questions about this until we get an answer (even of the "so what? we made it up" variety, anything). You see, BMS, I feel that we '''should not restructure the timeline based on "Epiphanies"'''. We should point out in the Notes section of every following episode "This is so and so many days after "Epiphanies", however note that BattlestarWiki's timeline shows that it couldn't be this". This is either a major blunder, a retcon, or both. We're not basing it on "Colonial Day", we're basing it on "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II" which was the final day that we got a date on screen (Day 51). KLG part I begins immediately after Colonial Day as you see that Starbuck got drunk at the party then had sex with Baltar in the following episode (she has the same dress, etc). Simply;
:::*Kobol's Last Gleaming Part II through Valley of Darkness happen pretty much on the same day, Day 51.
:::*Colonel Tigh could not possibly have been in command of Galactica for a period of over two weeks. He was in command starting in "Scattered", until "Resistance", although possibly this could have extended until "The Farm".
:::*Cally is given a sentence of 30 days in the brig in "The Farm" for shooting Boomer in "Resistance". (we always assumed it mean 30 Days counting from when she was first arrested, not several days later when Adama sentenced her). She gets out in "Flight of the Phoenix".
:::*Roslin is told later in Flight of the Phoenix that she has no more than one month to live. That puts a MAXIMUM of 30 days between the END of Flight of the Phoenix and "Epiphanies". We do know that Flight of the Phoenix DOES span a time period of WEEKS, we always assumed this was at least two. Though I guess up to four would not be "unreasonable".
:::*Adding them up, 51+14+30 = 90. Flight of the Phoenix BEGINS at around at least Day 90 (although the SCENE with Roslin's diagnosis is after the scene when Cally gets out, I'm willing to fudge it and just say that scenes on different ships don't necessarily happen in order if they don't affect each other right away. Fair enough).---->Thus, "Epiphanies" could not take place any later than Day 120, which is FOUR months, not Six (to quote Picard, "THERE...ARE...**FOUR**..." MONTHS!). What are we supposed to believe, that Flight of the Phoenix lasted '''two months'''? I mean the biggest "official" gap between episodes was the 10 day gap between The Hand of God and Colonial Day.
:::*Another big, "dumb question" I have: If Pegasus-through-Epiphanies (within a few days of each other) is supposed to take place ''Six'' months after the Cylon attack, '''Why isn't Caprica-Boomer more visibly pregnant?!'''. Her daughter was conceived a month after the attack, which would make her ''Five months pregnant'' in "Pegasus". Yet in Pegasus, she's wearing a REALLY form fitting tank top in which she doesn't look noticeably pregnant at all. Anyone else baffled by this?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 10:47, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::Roslin's prognosis is updated very early in "Flight of the Phoenix", ''before'' Cally's release from the brig, so really it should be "a maximum of 30 days between the BEGINNING of Flight of the Phoenix" and "Epiphanies". As for Boomer, she looks about five months along in "Epiphanies", but certainly did not during the "Pegasus" trilogy. I think it's fairly obvious that we just have to write off the "lost" two months as a continuity glitch - there's certainly no use badgering RDM about it. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:28, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::Thanks, Peter. Thats what I really wanted to see, the dates that we know filled in with the dates we can speculate. It appears your right, there are 2 months missing. I didn't think that RDM would make such a huge blunder - If I were him, I would have written out all the dates George Lucas style - he had the entire Star Wars timeline from Anakin's birth to Luke's death planned out before he even released the first one back in 1977. I thought RDM, with his whole "naturalistic science fiction" crusade would have done the same. Way to frak it up, RDM. PS way to work in the Picard reference - great episode. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 15:33, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:::::No he didn't. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:30, 22 January 2006 (EST)
::::I just had another thought. Perhaps Roslins little tour lasted 2 months. If she was going to all 12 colonies, who knows? That might be the missing two months right there. Do we have a reference to the duration of that tour? --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 15:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:::::See RDM's podcast for his thoughts on the duration of the flashbacks. They were originally intended to all take place in between Roslin's diagnosis and her departure for ''Galactica'', all on the same day. Note that her suit matches the one she arrived on Galactica wearing. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:43, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::::Oooh yeah... you're right. Well, I guess RDM's really frakked himself on this one. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 19:36, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::::Very good observations, and I think we should try to pressure RDM about this, if possible. He spouts so much rhetoric about keeping it believeable that we can't really let something like this slide. However, I don't know about using the FotP "1 month" diagnosis as the ''main'' point of continuity criticism. While it is true that Dr. Cottle has shown to be a very good doctor and his estimate is probably a well-informed one, it is still an ''estimate.'' This certainly wouldn't be the first time a patient lived longer than a doctor expected, and it won't be the last. Despite decades of collecting data, cancer is still not very well understood by Earth doctors, and it follows that since the Galactica world is almost identical to ours in terms of medical technology (by design), cancer is not all that well understood there either. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 15:37, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:::::No. In that episode he said he's be ''surprised'' if she lived a month. They were down to a few weeks. Jumping from that to saying "well she could have just lived two months and surprised everyone" is stretching it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:30, 22 January 2006 (EST)
By the way, please try to read the discussion thread more carefully. As much as I don't care for Ricimer regurgitating my easily accessible notes, I'd still rather not be erroneously credited for his posts. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:11, 22 January 2006 (EST)
:I'm as upset about this as you are. I was developing my own thoughts, "thinking out loud" as it were, not "regurgitating" what you said (similarities are due to the fact that they share the same source material). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 16:30, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:I think we're all basically on the same page here, so there's no need to argue over who came up with what originally. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 17:37, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::Come on now, this is supposed to be a *happy* occassion. Let's not ''bicker'' and ''argue'' about...who killed who...--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:55, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:::Yeah... we're all on the same page here. Perhaps we should add a note to the bottom of the timeline page about the missing two months? Right now, it jumps from day 86 to day 175 with no explanation. Well, I guess there IS no explanation, so we should add a note saying there is no explanation... if that makes sense. Also, sorry if I mixed up who said what, this page has become a little tough to follow. My apologies to Ricimer and Peter Farago. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 19:47, 22 January 2006 (EST)

Speaking from experience, I have known two people (one relative, one relative of a close friend) with cancer who have been given the "surprised if you see out the month" speech from doctors only to survive 3 months and 18 months respectively. My point is that even the most experienced of doctors often have to make educated guesses and sometimes they don't get the figures quite right. Sometimes the cancer doesn't behave as expected or the progression through the body slows. Given what is shown of Roslyn from FOTP, Pegasus, Resurrection Ship to Epiphanies, I don't see a huge problem with her lasting the extra 60 or so days that the timeline suggests. --[[User:Rexpop|rexpop]] 1:56, 26 January 2006 (EST)

:Thank you for your insight. On reflection, this does seem to be a plausible way to reconcile the time discrepancy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:44, 26 January 2006 (EST)

:Your personal insight does not add further weight to your viewpoint. I feel this violates the Citation crusade directly: unless they say directly on screen, in dialog, "wow, she lived longer than we thought", we should under no circumstances '''assume''' that she "just happened to live longer". Remember, this is a ''tv series'' where the writers are actually trying to inform they audience by stating facts on camera. This is not a historical research paper where we are trying to find out when a real person died, and we're confused that a doctor's diagnosis notes say she would live shorter than we've been led to believe. This is a tv series, and the writers were talking with us the audience in mind when they have Cottle on screen saying "you've got weeks, a month at the outside". Note, at the "outside" chance, as in "a maximum of one month". Thus, Rosl*I*n we must assume only had one month left. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 19:57, 26 January 2006 (EST)

::My only point is that of all the known information, Roslin's prognosis is the only thing that it is even ''possible'' to fudge. Whether or not one wishes to do so is a matter of personal interpretation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:42, 26 January 2006 (EST)

::Ricimer is just dead wrong there. If you listen to RDM he constantly talks about how his characters are living in a realistic world and are fallible. If you take that to its logical conclusion, then Cottle is just making his best guess as to what her prognosis is. He gives an estimate of how long she has, but, like any real doctor, he might have been wrong. An outside chance of one month doesn't rule out something longer than one month (he just probably wouldn't have bet money on it). And even if you went back to Cottle and he said, "She'll die within 20 days, guaranteed," one man's personal belief won't change the facts, and it looks like she lived longer than that one month. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 02:59, 26 February 2006 (EST)

:::It is irrational of you to disagree with Ricimer. And frankly your line of thinking rings of [[Wikipedia:Truthiness|Truthiness]]: it is not "one man's OPINION"; he is a DOCTOR, his prognosis was based on science and fact. Next, it was obviously a case of the writers essentially breaking the fourth wall, to announce to the audience, "she has one month to live". Finally, the amount of time that we believe was lost was on the order of ''Three Months''. It would be impossible, given the script, for Roslin to inexplicably live for four months when the medical prognosis was that she would live for one month ''at most''. Further, it does not explain the sudden shift in Caprica-Sharon's pregnancy; how she goes from not-visibly pregnant in "Pegasus" to suddenly very pregnant: if "Downloaded" supposedly takes place when she is eight months pregnant, and in Res Ship they say that six months have passed, making her 5 months pregnant all of a sudden? Even when she was wearing a tank top and stuff? Regardless, suddenly going from a "one month at best" prognosis, to "well, turns out it was four months", is a ''fantasy''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:32, 26 February 2006 (EST)

::::It's not irrational. It is one man's opinion, a doctor's for sure, but that still doesn't change the fact that he's making a best guess based on the information at hand. Going by yours and Ricimer's line of reasoning, then in the context of this show, a doctor's guesses are always right, that they do not make mistakes. But doctors do occasionally make misdiagnoses, give incorrect prognosises and make mistakes. I admit that it is a long shot that she could last four months after a one month prognosis, but it doesn't rule out that it couldn't happen. I understand that, by throwing out the one month prognosis in dialogue, the writers are trying to give us clues in the timeline, but the one month prognosis doesn't jive and I think that this is the best way to account for that three month gap. I personally think that they threw that line out there in writing anzd, as we have seen, they haven't been playing as close attention to the timeline as they should. And in regards to the pregnancy, at 5 months she'll have a nice little bulge in her belly. What I saw in Pegasus didn't really give any view of her belly area that was clear enough to know if she has a nice bulge ... unfortunately, I don't have a copy of "Resurrection Ship, pt I" to go back and take a look the exam scene right now which might clear things up. Oh, and thanks for the catch on the timeline for "Downloaded" BTW. You're right that 270 is the birthdate. --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 15:10, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Actually, if you can see Pegasus and Res Ship again it's ridiculous; she's wearing a tight fitting tank top and doesn't look pregnant at all. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:41, 2 March 2006 (CST)

==Duration of Home, Part I==

What's the basis for the recent dating for Home, Part I? I mean in terms of quotes or something I missed.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't know. It would probably be best to consider it in three parts with The Farm and Home, Part II, since they all seem to pick up where the other leaves off. I've sort of held off on re-watching them longer than I should, since they aren't really my favorite episodes... --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:00, 8 January 2006 (EST)
::If we just "assumed" 2 days had passed, etc without evidence I think it should be replaced with ?? marks. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:38, 8 January 2006 (EST)
:::I agree, if there's no evidence, but let's give Kahran a chance to respond. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:41, 8 January 2006 (EST)

== Roslin's life expectancy after "Epiphanies" ==

Should we remove the "Roslin's maximum/minimum life expectancy" stat now that her cancer's been all but cured?
[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:58, 21 January 2006 (EST)

:I'd rather not. We didn't remove her older life expectancy from "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I" when the estimate was revised downward in "Flight of the Phoenix". Both data points might still be of interest to someone who's following the continuity of the show. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:04, 21 January 2006 (EST)

==When is the Presidential Election?==

Okay, "Res Ship, part I" and "Epiphanies" established that we are now 6 months after the Cylon attack. (That's definately what they're *SAYING*, but I'm still saying how improbable it was and there must have been a lot of time passing in FotP).

Regardless, in "[[Scar]]" 29 days pass. Give a few as well for "Black Market" (do we know how many days pass in that?), and we'll call it an even "one month".

6 months + 1 month = 7 months. pollo stated in "Bastille Day" that they would hold elections in "seven months" when Roslin serves out President Adar's term. So what's going on? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 03:11, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:RDM says the election will take place at the end of the season. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:18, 4 February 2006 (EST)

==Timing of Events of Black Market and later episodes==
The "matter of weeks" timing of Black Market after Epiphanies is thorny in terms of trying to figure out when it happens. I'm estimating 3 weeks, hence 21 days. If it was much longer, they could have said "a month" or "almost a month" or "more than a month", if it was shorter, it could be "just a week" or the like. It could be a little more either way, but I put dates in estimating that much time (and noted as approximate).
--Wingsandsword

:Seven weeks is still "a matter of weeks". All we can say about the "black market" comment is that it was definitely less than two months, since after that point it becomes "a matter of months". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:38, 4 February 2006 (EST)

:::No Wingsandsword. Here our standard is to leave it as ?? question marks, when such a large amount of time as ''one to two weeks'' is involve.d --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 03:39, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't see any policy to that effect anywhere here. I've just checked, it's nowhere in the tutorials, nowhere in the few policies listed, nowhere I can find. There is no style guide to this wiki making things like that standard that I can tell. It might be ''your'' personal standard, but I don't see any official opinion or policy declaration that approximate dates have a specific margin of error, that beyond "x" certainty it goes from an approximate date to a completely unknown one. An approximate date is a lot more useful than just "???". We don't know when, hence it is listed as "~" days. --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 13:39, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== The Ten Weeks thing in "Downloaded" ==

Just wanted to let you guys in on a little thing regarding this "Ten Weeks Ago" thing that popped up in "Downloaded"... I was contacted by a bona-fide member of the post-production crew on BSG. While I can't get into specifics, since I didn't ask to do so, I can tell you folks that the production crew figured that the "Ten Weeks Ago" thing was a mistake (which came from the script) and this will be corrected in the home video releases and the international views to read "Ten Weeks After" (the attack). It was the fan's outcry -- and the meticulous work done on this timeline -- that brought around this correction. All our hard working contributors should be proud -- I know I am. Pretty frakkin' cool, huh? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:30, 2 March 2006 (CST)
:It is pretty cool, but "ten weeks after the attack" is still wrong - Sharon's death can't ''possibly'' have been any later than Day 57, ie, roughly eight weeks. Nor does it address the other issue in this episode - Three's statement that Kara was on Caprica "a couple weeks ago", while Caprica-Valerii wasn't even visibly pregnant yet; nor the 74 days which seem to have vanished into the ether between "Pegasus" and "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 2 March 2006 (CST)
:: FYI, I've mailed the person in question your comments. I'm interested to see what happens with this. I'll keep you folks posted. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:39, 2 March 2006 (CST)

:::I was going to chime in on this myself: Our entire timeline supports the idea that it could not have been Day 70 (ten weeks); that was around Home, Part II. Would you guys agree that "8 weeks after" would be a good working figure? (I mean "weeks" leaves it "fuzzy around the edges", as it were, giving some 2-3 day stretch time, no need to get exact.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:10, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Flight Of The Phoenix Chronology Note ==
I'm sorry to say that the whole Chronology Note on this episode has several errors in it that need correcting. Rather than edit it myself, I'm starting this thread so that there is some agreement on what it is edited to. I rewatched 'Flight of the Phoenix' the other weekend from the Season 2.0 DVD set and the order of events in the episode is:

1) Caly gets released from the Brig
2) Tyrol starts building the backbird
3) Laura gets her one month to live diagnosis
4) Galactica routs Cylon attack
5) Tyrol completes the Blackbird.

So the statement that Laura's diagnosis happended before Caly was released from the brig is wrong. And there is no indication that the scene happened in flashback either. It's possible that they re-edited the episode for the DVD but I haven't seen a posting to indicate that this happened. So I would suggest that this note is removed and the episode timeline entry corrected to break out the 5 events, as they did occur on seperate days over a three month period. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 15:38, 3 March 2006 (CST)

:Thank you; I was running off of some back information from someone else, but upon viewing a transcript at GalacticaStation, it appears that Roslin is givern her diagnosis AFTER Cally returns; this is great, and a lot simpler; now it just means that months pass between these two scenes. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:36, 3 March 2006 (CST)

::To clear things up I've tidied up the section for this episode. I've broken out the events as happening on different days and moved the chronology note to the notes section for further cleaning up. I've also indicated that the day of Cally's release is approximate as we don't have a firm date from when the 30 days starts from. Hopefully this will help keep the timeline fairly clean. and clear --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 21:33, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Fine Tuning "Black Market" Through "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I" ==

I know that we've been able to pin the start date of "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I" to be around Day 270, but I think it we might be able to further fine tune that number to be more like Day 276. Going forward from "Epiphanies," the timeline is as follows:
* At least two days pass in "Epiphanies" putting the earliest start date for the events in "Black Market" to be around Day 191.
* At least one day passes in "Black Market," which means that the mining operations in "Scar" could not start until Day 192 at the earliest. Since the mining ops in "Scar" take 29 days, [[Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar ''Galactica'']] could not return to the fleet until Day 221 at the earliest.
* The return of [[Galactica (RDM)|Battlestar ''Galactica'']] to the fleet means that the events of "Sacrifice" could not begin until Day 221.
* Lee's recovery from the shooting in "Sacrifice" has lasted "almost a month." If we assume this is longer than three weeks and less than a month, around 25 days, then the starting date for "The Captain's Hand" would be around Day 246.
* In "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I" the moderator of the debate states that Baltar announced his candidacy one month ago (in "The Captain's Hand"), putting the the beginning of the episode at around Day 276.
It's six days, I know, but I think with the information at hand we can reliably date the timline for the final stretch of the season. Any thoughts, other information I'm missing? --[[User:LindyChef|LindyChef]] 14:39, 7 March 2006 (CST)

:I agree. If we look at Starbuck's SAR, how can it take them 10 days to jump from the Fleet to Caprica and only one day to jump back? If we put "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I" at Day 276, that would seem a little more likely (ie, four days of Jumps and calculations to get there, one day to get back). --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 04:00, 12 March 2006 (EST)

Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2006-03-12T07:19:28Z

Bahamut: /* Location */

==Merge proposal==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

==Which flag is which?==
A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives.

As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif 2 clockwise from Sagittarius.
--[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==New Icons==
What do you think? We might consider making them smaller and removing the image frame and caption, but I'd also be happy leaving them as they are. It's nice to have a place to note that some of the symbols are only tentatively identified with the colonies in question. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:It looks fine. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 09:11, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I like 'em. I'd say smaller, though. Of course... I have my thumb settings to 300px so that screen shots are large enough to be intelligible, so smaller to me would be about 150px or 100px. I also like alternating for balance, but that's just me. I alternate right a left in other articles, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==Residence vs. Tribe==

I think there's a difference between "where a character currently makes their residence" and "what colony they are from". I think "what colony they are from" means "what ''tribe''" they are. For example, Dualla could have been away from Sagittaron for years and lived on another Colony, but she's still from the Sagittaron tribe. In "Bastille Day", she describes herself as "a Sagittaron", not "someone ''from'' Sagittaron".

Anyway, I also think that non-canonical information from SkyOne website should not be used in assuming Stabuck may be from Picon, not Caprica. We should wait until this is said on either the Scifi.com official site, or on screen.
--Ricimer, 16 Sept, 2005

==Outposts==

Ricimer wrote: ''The Colonials actually expanded their sphere of influence over time beyond the original Twelve Colonies to include several outposts, bases, and mining colonies (such as [[Troy]]) in other systems ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html| RDM, January 30, 2005]), though they were apparently minor extensions of the original Twelve Colonies rather than independently functioning worlds in their own right, and when the Cylons overwhelmed the Twelve Colonies themselves no mention is even explicity made about these minor worlds, seeming to take it as a given that the destruction of the Twelve Colonies would equal the destruction of humanity, and that these outposts were not significant enough to pose any challenge to the Cylon fleet.''

RDM's actual comments are:

:Q: "Did the colonies have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "

:RDM: I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the Cylons, so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies.

I think that's a very weak confirmation, and if we're going to include it here, it should reflect the vagueness of RDM's actual comment. I have replaced it with the following:

:Ronald D. Moore has suggested that the Colonies probably maintained some minor observatories and listening posts in outlying star systems, but it is unlikely that ''Galactica'' will encounter them in the course of the series. ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html#a000016|RDM, January 30, 2005])

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 15 December 2005 (EST)

==Scorpion vs. Scorpia==

At present, we have a name card from "[[Colonial Day]]" and the name of the [[Scorpia Traveler]] in favor of "Scorpia", and the [[Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]] in favor of "Scorpion". Ricimer, if you want to make a case for "Scorpion" over "Scorpia", you ''must'' cite an episode quote, and I will not produce it for you. Your uncited revisions are anathema to our goal of accuracy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:34, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:I am sorry, I was in a hurry to get out and didn't have time to wip out my copy of the series companion. On p.86 of "Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion", by David Bassom, there is an "''early'' concept sketch of the flags of the Twele Colonies"; On this, it lists the names "Scorpia", but also "Libran", and "Aquarion". "[[Colonial Day]]" established that these two Colonies are in fact named "Libra" and "Aquaria", in dialog, etc. This evidence has led me to believe that "Scorpia" was amongst some early ideas for Colony names that were thrown around in the early stages of production, but which were later changed; however, the art and props department wasn't notified of the switch, or made a mistake, etc. I'm also inclined to this line of thinking because the props in this scene feature several now-infamous goofs, such as the switcheroo between Canceron, Picon, Leonis, etc., etc. As for the evidence from "Scorpia Traveler", there's also a "Gemini" ship, as well as mispelling etc. which have led me to the belief that certain ship names are just meant for asthetic value and do not necessarily reflect the actual name of their home Colony. In "Home, Part II" it was established that the Colonies used to have "ancient names" which align more closely to the signs of the Zodiac, but which over the millenia have drifted away into their present form. Perhaps some ship captains just felt like naming their vessels after the more ancient names. I don't know. But the main points remain: A) Ship names aren't very reliable as an information source, B) this scene had many goofs in it, C) the official companion shows that this was an early name thrown around, but later abandoned, and several of these early names have been disproven by this point. Therefore, I think "Scorpion Fleet Shipyards", the first ''prominent'' mention of Scorpion/Scorpia, taken with the above evidence, proves that the true name of the Colony is "Scorpion". What's everyone else's consensus? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I'm with Ricimer on this one.--Zareck Rocks 15:04, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I agree with Ricimer, as Cain's mention of the "scorpion fleet shipyards" is the only canonical reference to place when it comes to the scorpio-related colony. It has also been shown, as Ricimer mentions above, that the ship names seem to be variations of the colony names i.e. [[Gemenon Taveller]] and the [[Gemini]]. So we can't necessarily glean the name of the scorpio-related colony from the [[Scorpia Traveller]], for there may also be a Scorpion Traveller.
::However, unless someone can verify this with subtitles, Cain could be saying Scorpi''an'' fleet shipyards, rather than Scorpi''on'', thereby inferring that the colony name is Scorpia (I dare to speculate that the Caprica would have it's own Caprican fleet shipyards(if it did indeed have shipyards)). I don't have the DVDs, as they're not yet available in Canada, but someone should really check this, it could answer this question --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 16:20, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::I've grepped the TwizTV logs, and the Scorpia/Scorpion colony has never been referred to apart from the instances we've already listed. So, here's what that means:
:::#We have a mention of the "Scorpia Traveler", which matches the "Gemenon Traveler". "Freighter Gemini" is a TOS reference.
:::#We have a comment that might be the "Scorpion" shipyards, or the "Scorpian" shipyards.
:::#We have a clear and readable screenshot of the name of the colony.
:::We should not "correct" the name of the colony to what we think it "should" be, when we have unequivocal evidence staring us in the face. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::I'm sorry, but it doesn't really seem like the above evidence is "unequivocal". Thankfully, I think "Resurrection Ship" will make further mention of ''Pegasus' '' flight from the shipyards, and we will probably hear the name again. Best to wait until then. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:05, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::Let me clarify. We have at least seen "Scorpia" spelled out. We have never even ''heard'' "Scorpion", except in a context that might easily have been "Scorpian". In my opinion, the two options here are "Scorpia" or "We don't know". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::Wait a minute, someone out there has got to have the DVD set of the second season, we should be able to determine the definitive name of the scorpio colony from that. Although, I suppose, Peter, that you're suggesting we leave it at Scorpia until someone can check the subtitles. That sounds fine with me. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 22:56, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::How will that tell us definitively? It was only mentioned in "Pegasus", in the ambiguous dialogue mentioned above. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:00, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::Like I said, we stand a good chance of hearing it again in the very next two episodes, so I suggest we leave things as they are, and reach a final decision after "Resurrection Ship, Part II". Although we could get subtitles from the DVD, subtitles can be notoriously innaccurate when it comes to the finer points of spelling, i.e. Scorpion vs. Scorpian. Perhaps we could rewatch Pegasus, and check the inflection that Michelle Forbes uses; I ''think'' she clearly said "-ion" (as opposed to "-ian"). I'll check again; however, even hearing the dialog personally, I doubt this will give a DEFINATIVE answer in ANY form as the actress could have been just slurring it. I don't know. Well, I'll check for the sake of checking. Again, I think we should "wait and see" on this one. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:11, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::I just watched the episode and the subtitles (however inaccurate) do say "Scorpion." It does sound like Forbes says more of an -ion than -ian. Just my two cents. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:30, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Thank you Talos. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:04, 26 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Scorpion would be pronounced with the full vowel "{{IPA|piɑn}}, while "Scorpian" would use a reduced vowel, {{IPA|piən}} or {{IPA|piɨn}}. The latter is what I hear, although Ricimer is right that it could just be "slurring". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:09, 26 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::::I've isolated Michelle Forbes's pronunciation of "Scorpi_n" and uploaded it [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpian.wav here]. Unfortunately, the last syllable is basically whispered and cannot be analyzed for vowel formants. It does sound very reduced to me, however. This is not usually the case for Picon, Gemenon, etc. which are almost always realized with full vowels.
:::::::::::Note, by the way, that the ''animal'' spelled "Scorpion" would be pronounced the same as the adjective "Scorpian", while a colony called Scorpion would be pronounced "Skor-pee-on". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:05, 28 December 2005 (EST)

== Location ==

I didn't want to get into a revert war, so... How, exactly, are the colonies' positions indicated in the Tomb of Athena? I just watched that ep last night and I don't remember any arrows or name tags... If the theory is that the colonies are inside the constellation that shares their name, then I think I'll have to disagree. Not possible. The zodiac constellations are spread about in our sky in a circle, meaning they're not very near each other at all (so if "the Colonies" can be considered some single area of space that's small enough to go from one end to another inside months they need to be closer than a large ring of space encircling Earth) and all the stars in a constellation aren't even necessarily near each other. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:42, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't think the positions of the Twelve Colonies are indicated at all by the tomb of Athena. It's just a map to Earth (Earth being the only spot where those constellations would appear in that configuration). It is interesting that would mean that there isn't a direct correlation between the constellations and the colonies that they are named after... (other than as a rememberance of where they came from, kind of). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:50, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:The fact of the matter is that the Tomb of Athena holographic map to Earth shows constellations made of the symbols of the Twelve Tribees/Colonies; these constellations are '''entirely arbitrary'''; that is, they were designated purely because they resemble the symbols of the Colonies; each planet of the 12 is in ''no way'' in each constellation. Besides, that would mean they'd often end up in separate galaxies. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::Well, no, not separate galaxies, but further apart from each other than each is from earth. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:34, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::: My point exactly, Peter. Well said. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:05, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Can we take the part about all the colonies orbiting the same star out of the article? I think it's pretty clear that they're all separate systems, unless someone has different information. --[[User:Bahamut|Bahamut]] 02:42, 12 March 2006 (EST)

== More on flags ==

I found this a while ago. A user on Sci-Fi.com's messageboard going by "bescincimevsim" has made some incredible renderings of all twelve colonial flags that, in my oppinion look very good and accurate to what has been seen on the show. It might be worth checking out the [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1310569&Searchpage=2&Main=1310569&Words=bescincimevsim&topic=&Search=true#Post1310569 topic here]. I ''think'' they might be avalible for free use, but then again the guy doesn't seem to be available for contact anymore a he posted only one topic, the one about the flags, then stopped posting altogether in mid October. Either way, I think it should be worth checking out. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 18:05, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:We should not use these. I think they're just fanart. There is a page in the official companion of *early* flag designs (the names are wrong in some cases, etc. so this page of the book is an early draft and shouldn't be used as fact). However, this guy also confuses the symbols of Tauron and Leonis. I mean it's just a guy posting on a messageboard. The Citation Crusade wouldn't stand for it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::The assignment of colony and flag is obviously non-canon, but the graphics themselves are far superior to the ones we're using. We should ask him to license them to us under the CCL. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:56, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::Alternately, if he can be contacted, ask him to create corrected ones based on a CCL.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 14:40, 2 February 2006 (EST)

==Colonial Flags==
The Colonial Flags, as listed on this page, have been matched to their colonies based solely on on-screen evidence. Given their dubious veracity on other matters, I am not prepared to take the Official Magazine's word for it over what we've actually seen — at least not without a discussion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:Okay, then you should know that the flags also match what is written in the Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion. It has a page for Colonial Day that lists the flasg for each colony and it's the smae as the Magazine flag listings, so that's two sources that support my listings as opposed the shoddy on-screen evidence from the episodes. --Ltcrashdown 22:30, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've examined the footage of Colonial Day and QuintusCinna's arguments, and concluded that they aren't very strong. I'm going to revert this back to your version. Do you have a cite for the Official Companion as well? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:35, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here's the info: Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion by David Bassom, page 86, Published by Titan Books, London, August 2005
:::By the way, what was QuintusCinna's source?--Ltcrashdown 22:39, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::For the colonies at issue here, it was mostly conjecture on his part. I remembered his argument having more basis than it actually did. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== We are Gemenese of you Please! ==

I think the way this works (and once we nail it down, we should put it on S&C, probably) is that someone ''from'' Gemenon is a Gemenon, but the adjective for describing them is Gemenese. So, like, a nice Gemenese Rug or something. This is a throwback to the language of Gemenese in TOS, I think. Now... Is someone from Caprica Caprican and "a Craprica" or does that one match the adjective (like I'm from Texas, thus I am Texan and "a Texan" if that helps)? Whatcha think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:07, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:The Twelve Colonies of Kobol/Archive3

2006-03-12T07:17:41Z

Bahamut: /* Location */

==Merge proposal==

This article, and the articles for each of the Twelve Colonies, are all very short, and I don't see any of them expanding substantially in the near future. I think it would make for a nice looking, meaty article if we merged in each of the individual colony articles with this one under first-level headings. How say you all? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:50, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I know this looks weird and kind of dumb. I'm still fiddling. It's easy to revert if the whole thing ends up being too hideous to bear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:17, 13 September 2005 (EDT)

[[image:Banner_unknown1.gif|left|75px]][[image:Banner_unknown2.gif|right|75px]]
: I like the idea and whats up now. If we knew more about each colony, it would look nicer, but until then I think this is fine. Now... What to do with these other two banners? Now, the two colonies without banners are Leo and Aquarius, the lion and the water-bearer. Both of these symbols could be a water-bearer, I guess, but I think the black and white one looks like he has whisters, there and that shape at the top looks more ear-like. That would leave the blue and red one to be the water bearer, which I think makes sense enough. Think we could drop those in with a note as to their speculative nature, or best not to? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:27, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::I'm leaving this one up to [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]], our resident flag-hunter. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:32, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The two colonies without banners is Aquarius and whatever the colonial name is for Libra. I saw in the mini-series they mentioned a colony called "ICON" alongside of "PICON" so I'm a little weirded out. As for Leonis, that flag has been found. I did a picture search in google for the zodiac's constellation and found the flag's symbol looked exactly like what I have designated. I can't remember, but I believe the constellation for Libra looked quite similar to the black one. Since we don't yet know as of yet what is the name for the Libra colony, I have left it blank. [[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]

:At least we know it isn't Ophiuchi or something. Roslin identifies Libra in the Tomb of Athena map room, although she doesn't give its modern name. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:59, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Realizing that it's still being worked on, it looks awful right now. You can't tell which banner goes to which colony, for one thing. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 08:30, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Personally, I don't really like the combination of all 12 colonies together either since there is no set border and down the road we will have pictures relating to each colony. This will make it slower to download. --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 12:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:The problem, in my opinion, is that there's little to do at the main article other than simply list the colonies, and the majority of the individual colonies are stub-like in length. As for images, Caprica is the only planet we've seen thus far and probably the only one we're likely to see (unless we get Scorpion in a flashback in Pegasus or something). One thing we can do, if it becomes necessary, is link to full-length articles from just underneath the first-level headings.

:As for the banners, I agree that they could be confusing but I rather like them right now. Do either of you think it coudl be re-arranged in a better manner (maybe if they didn't alternate sides? But then there'd be a lot more wasted space)? Or is it a lost cause in your opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:20, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::Yeah, you could try putting all the banners on the right. See how it looks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 14:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::There, that's what they look like right-aligned. Frankly, I think they look better alternating. I don't find it confusing, and the wasted space bugs me. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:36, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Hate to say it, but I don't like it at all. The banners overlap with the previous colony's "box", there are no clear markers indicating where one section begins and another ends, it just looks bad. (Part of the problem is that we don't have much information about many of the colonies at this point.) --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:07, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::::It'd be better if we could insert a line across the entire page, and have the colony name under that line, along with the banner on the right. Then each colony would have a neat, easily readable section. I don't know if Wiki markup is capable of that though. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 15:10, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:::::I still think it's a better option than thirteen articles that are completely insubstantial on their own. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

I added captions to some of the banners, and in the process deleted some of the <nowiki><div></nowiki> markup. Wikipedia recommends against using HTML ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_markup_with_HTML]), and I've been trying to learn from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Extended_image_syntax Extended image syntax] page. I can't figure out why a new section like <nowiki>==Caprica==</nowiki> doesn't appear on the same level as its banner. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:09, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

:Ah ha! The wonders of '''<nowiki> </nowiki>'''! What do you guys think of the formatting now? --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 16:28, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

::My HTML/CSS was not used lightly. That's really the one way to get the banners at the section heading level as I did. Frankly this seems like a more cumbersome version of my right-aligned attempt. I really dislike the caption boxes, too.
::I have a new idea: Rather than use the (rather long) banners, we can grab the icons from each, along with the background colors, and use them. I've created nine high-resolution versions from QuintusCinna's originals, which you can link to below:
::[http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/aerelon.png Aerelon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/canceron.png Canceron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/caprica.png Caprica], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/gemenon.png Gemenon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/picon.png Picon], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/sagittaron.png Sagittaron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpion.png Scorpion], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/tauron.png Tauron], [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/virgon.png Virgon]
::These could be scaled down to almost any size and still look nice. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:35, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Without caption boxes, it's not clear what the banners are. I know it seems self-explanatory to us, but for someone who's never seen them before, it's not. I'll take a look at the icons in a bit. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 17:03, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I find repeating "This is the Banner of X" to be tedious, and the red background to be jarring. Couldn't we simply note that the banner/icon/flag/colors of the colony is provided to the right? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:06, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::Peter. You've saved us all. As I said earlier, I liked it when the banner appeared to be hanging from the red line under its colony's name. I share Peter's dislike for tons of white space and alternating the sides seemed to create the least of that. However, if we just had the emblem and colors from each flag, we could do it below the red line as Fang seems to like, and not have this huge, long graphic. Maybe we can then link the full banner pics and, if we get enough information that a given colony's article wouldn't be a stub, we can display it there. Does all that make sense? --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:11, 14 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I like it with banners to right, with titling, albeit a little redundant. Not sure how to deal with the "white space" of many areas, but we're really not going to get them filled until we get more data, so that is that. I feel it's informative enough as it stands, but I'll leave the formatting arguments alone. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:52, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

==Which flag is which?==
A close viewing of [[Colonial Day]] indicates that the flag currently labeled as [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]] belongs to Safiya Sanne's seat - either Picon or Leonis; and that the black flag belongs to Robin Wenutu's seat (Canceron), and that VIrgon's flag is a white field with a green inner stripe and yellow outer stripe. I'm curious as to how QuintusCinna came to his conclusion that the delegates aren't seated at their apprporiate flags, since I don't know any other evidence linking particular flags to colonies. I guess Scorpion is pretty obvious, though. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:34, 14 September 2005 (EDT)

Don't trust the banners lining up with those they represent in [[Colonial Day]]. The reason I say this is that [[Tom Zarek]] is in one area of the room and his very obvious banner for Sagitarron is completely in another area. This is the same for Virgon's banner and their representative. There are 3 different questions I carry thanks to the shows I have watched. In the mini-series we see the banners are in this order from left to right: [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Virgon|Virgon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Picon|Picon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]], [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenon]], Scorpion, Aquaria(?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Tauron|Tauron]], Libra (?), [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittaron]], [[Canceron]] (?), [[Leonis]]. Is this in the order that the colonies signed the unification treaty or is the order for the flags random or is it in the order they were nuked? Though I am sure the producers, directors, and such just put them up in random order, it is now a sense of fact for the show. If we were to believe they were placed up there, the banners must be up there in some order that is according to military protocol for flag bearing. In Colonial Day I add 2 more questions. We see that the banners are behind the delegates in a different order than in the mini-series. This means they were either a) put up randomly or b) have a separate purpose than those shown at the end of the mini-series (nuked, treaty order, or other). Then we see that the delegates are put in a different order than the banners behind them. The Gemenon delegate is clearly seen toward the middle and the Gemenon flag is clearly in a different area. The same questions come up for the delegates: are they randomly placed or is there reason. It's not alphabetical, and placements of delegates and banners in every society is always in some sort of traditional order. I hope that the Battlestar Galactica producers, writers, and such will be able to answer this though I suspect they won't because they have REAL lives.

As for the Picon flag, the constellation looks quite similar to the picon banner and the same goes for Tauron's with Taurus. I have no doubt with those. The Libra's icon can be seen in this picture http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HorseAstrology/AstrologySymbol.gif 2 clockwise from Sagittarius.
--[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]] 1:12, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==New Icons==
What do you think? We might consider making them smaller and removing the image frame and caption, but I'd also be happy leaving them as they are. It's nice to have a place to note that some of the symbols are only tentatively identified with the colonies in question. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:42, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:It looks fine. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 09:11, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

:: I like 'em. I'd say smaller, though. Of course... I have my thumb settings to 300px so that screen shots are large enough to be intelligible, so smaller to me would be about 150px or 100px. I also like alternating for balance, but that's just me. I alternate right a left in other articles, too. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 15 September 2005 (EDT)

==Residence vs. Tribe==

I think there's a difference between "where a character currently makes their residence" and "what colony they are from". I think "what colony they are from" means "what ''tribe''" they are. For example, Dualla could have been away from Sagittaron for years and lived on another Colony, but she's still from the Sagittaron tribe. In "Bastille Day", she describes herself as "a Sagittaron", not "someone ''from'' Sagittaron".

Anyway, I also think that non-canonical information from SkyOne website should not be used in assuming Stabuck may be from Picon, not Caprica. We should wait until this is said on either the Scifi.com official site, or on screen.
--Ricimer, 16 Sept, 2005

==Outposts==

Ricimer wrote: ''The Colonials actually expanded their sphere of influence over time beyond the original Twelve Colonies to include several outposts, bases, and mining colonies (such as [[Troy]]) in other systems ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html| RDM, January 30, 2005]), though they were apparently minor extensions of the original Twelve Colonies rather than independently functioning worlds in their own right, and when the Cylons overwhelmed the Twelve Colonies themselves no mention is even explicity made about these minor worlds, seeming to take it as a given that the destruction of the Twelve Colonies would equal the destruction of humanity, and that these outposts were not significant enough to pose any challenge to the Cylon fleet.''

RDM's actual comments are:

:Q: "Did the colonies have outposts, bases, or trade partners outside of the 12 colonies. Did they even explore other systems. The colonies could have had observatories, listening posts, or even scientific research teams exploring other planets beyond the colonial system(s). They could encounter any of these which could lead to supplies, raw materials, food, fuel etc. "

:RDM: I think that's probably true, but part of our premise is that the fleet has Jumped far out into unexplored space in an effort to elude the Cylons, so we won't be encountered any other outposts or colonies.

I think that's a very weak confirmation, and if we're going to include it here, it should reflect the vagueness of RDM's actual comment. I have replaced it with the following:

:Ronald D. Moore has suggested that the Colonies probably maintained some minor observatories and listening posts in outlying star systems, but it is unlikely that ''Galactica'' will encounter them in the course of the series. ([http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html#a000016|RDM, January 30, 2005])

--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:35, 15 December 2005 (EST)

==Scorpion vs. Scorpia==

At present, we have a name card from "[[Colonial Day]]" and the name of the [[Scorpia Traveler]] in favor of "Scorpia", and the [[Scorpion Fleet Shipyards]] in favor of "Scorpion". Ricimer, if you want to make a case for "Scorpion" over "Scorpia", you ''must'' cite an episode quote, and I will not produce it for you. Your uncited revisions are anathema to our goal of accuracy. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:34, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:I am sorry, I was in a hurry to get out and didn't have time to wip out my copy of the series companion. On p.86 of "Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion", by David Bassom, there is an "''early'' concept sketch of the flags of the Twele Colonies"; On this, it lists the names "Scorpia", but also "Libran", and "Aquarion". "[[Colonial Day]]" established that these two Colonies are in fact named "Libra" and "Aquaria", in dialog, etc. This evidence has led me to believe that "Scorpia" was amongst some early ideas for Colony names that were thrown around in the early stages of production, but which were later changed; however, the art and props department wasn't notified of the switch, or made a mistake, etc. I'm also inclined to this line of thinking because the props in this scene feature several now-infamous goofs, such as the switcheroo between Canceron, Picon, Leonis, etc., etc. As for the evidence from "Scorpia Traveler", there's also a "Gemini" ship, as well as mispelling etc. which have led me to the belief that certain ship names are just meant for asthetic value and do not necessarily reflect the actual name of their home Colony. In "Home, Part II" it was established that the Colonies used to have "ancient names" which align more closely to the signs of the Zodiac, but which over the millenia have drifted away into their present form. Perhaps some ship captains just felt like naming their vessels after the more ancient names. I don't know. But the main points remain: A) Ship names aren't very reliable as an information source, B) this scene had many goofs in it, C) the official companion shows that this was an early name thrown around, but later abandoned, and several of these early names have been disproven by this point. Therefore, I think "Scorpion Fleet Shipyards", the first ''prominent'' mention of Scorpion/Scorpia, taken with the above evidence, proves that the true name of the Colony is "Scorpion". What's everyone else's consensus? --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 14:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I'm with Ricimer on this one.--Zareck Rocks 15:04, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::I agree with Ricimer, as Cain's mention of the "scorpion fleet shipyards" is the only canonical reference to place when it comes to the scorpio-related colony. It has also been shown, as Ricimer mentions above, that the ship names seem to be variations of the colony names i.e. [[Gemenon Taveller]] and the [[Gemini]]. So we can't necessarily glean the name of the scorpio-related colony from the [[Scorpia Traveller]], for there may also be a Scorpion Traveller.
::However, unless someone can verify this with subtitles, Cain could be saying Scorpi''an'' fleet shipyards, rather than Scorpi''on'', thereby inferring that the colony name is Scorpia (I dare to speculate that the Caprica would have it's own Caprican fleet shipyards(if it did indeed have shipyards)). I don't have the DVDs, as they're not yet available in Canada, but someone should really check this, it could answer this question --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 16:20, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::I've grepped the TwizTV logs, and the Scorpia/Scorpion colony has never been referred to apart from the instances we've already listed. So, here's what that means:
:::#We have a mention of the "Scorpia Traveler", which matches the "Gemenon Traveler". "Freighter Gemini" is a TOS reference.
:::#We have a comment that might be the "Scorpion" shipyards, or the "Scorpian" shipyards.
:::#We have a clear and readable screenshot of the name of the colony.
:::We should not "correct" the name of the colony to what we think it "should" be, when we have unequivocal evidence staring us in the face. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::I'm sorry, but it doesn't really seem like the above evidence is "unequivocal". Thankfully, I think "Resurrection Ship" will make further mention of ''Pegasus' '' flight from the shipyards, and we will probably hear the name again. Best to wait until then. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:05, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::Let me clarify. We have at least seen "Scorpia" spelled out. We have never even ''heard'' "Scorpion", except in a context that might easily have been "Scorpian". In my opinion, the two options here are "Scorpia" or "We don't know". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:45, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::Wait a minute, someone out there has got to have the DVD set of the second season, we should be able to determine the definitive name of the scorpio colony from that. Although, I suppose, Peter, that you're suggesting we leave it at Scorpia until someone can check the subtitles. That sounds fine with me. --[[User:MASON|Mason]] 22:56, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::How will that tell us definitively? It was only mentioned in "Pegasus", in the ambiguous dialogue mentioned above. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:00, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::Like I said, we stand a good chance of hearing it again in the very next two episodes, so I suggest we leave things as they are, and reach a final decision after "Resurrection Ship, Part II". Although we could get subtitles from the DVD, subtitles can be notoriously innaccurate when it comes to the finer points of spelling, i.e. Scorpion vs. Scorpian. Perhaps we could rewatch Pegasus, and check the inflection that Michelle Forbes uses; I ''think'' she clearly said "-ion" (as opposed to "-ian"). I'll check again; however, even hearing the dialog personally, I doubt this will give a DEFINATIVE answer in ANY form as the actress could have been just slurring it. I don't know. Well, I'll check for the sake of checking. Again, I think we should "wait and see" on this one. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:11, 25 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::I just watched the episode and the subtitles (however inaccurate) do say "Scorpion." It does sound like Forbes says more of an -ion than -ian. Just my two cents. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:30, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Thank you Talos. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:04, 26 December 2005 (EST)
::::::::::Scorpion would be pronounced with the full vowel "{{IPA|piɑn}}, while "Scorpian" would use a reduced vowel, {{IPA|piən}} or {{IPA|piɨn}}. The latter is what I hear, although Ricimer is right that it could just be "slurring". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:09, 26 December 2005 (EST)
:::::::::::I've isolated Michelle Forbes's pronunciation of "Scorpi_n" and uploaded it [http://home.comcast.net/~suluger/scorpian.wav here]. Unfortunately, the last syllable is basically whispered and cannot be analyzed for vowel formants. It does sound very reduced to me, however. This is not usually the case for Picon, Gemenon, etc. which are almost always realized with full vowels.
:::::::::::Note, by the way, that the ''animal'' spelled "Scorpion" would be pronounced the same as the adjective "Scorpian", while a colony called Scorpion would be pronounced "Skor-pee-on". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:05, 28 December 2005 (EST)

== Location ==

I didn't want to get into a revert war, so... How, exactly, are the colonies' positions indicated in the Tomb of Athena? I just watched that ep last night and I don't remember any arrows or name tags... If the theory is that the colonies are inside the constellation that shares their name, then I think I'll have to disagree. Not possible. The zodiac constellations are spread about in our sky in a circle, meaning they're not very near each other at all (so if "the Colonies" can be considered some single area of space that's small enough to go from one end to another inside months they need to be closer than a large ring of space encircling Earth) and all the stars in a constellation aren't even necessarily near each other. --[[User:Day|Day]] 10:42, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:I don't think the positions of the Twelve Colonies are indicated at all by the tomb of Athena. It's just a map to Earth (Earth being the only spot where those constellations would appear in that configuration). It is interesting that would mean that there isn't a direct correlation between the constellations and the colonies that they are named after... (other than as a rememberance of where they came from, kind of). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:50, 4 January 2006 (EST)

:The fact of the matter is that the Tomb of Athena holographic map to Earth shows constellations made of the symbols of the Twelve Tribees/Colonies; these constellations are '''entirely arbitrary'''; that is, they were designated purely because they resemble the symbols of the Colonies; each planet of the 12 is in ''no way'' in each constellation. Besides, that would mean they'd often end up in separate galaxies. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 20:23, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::Well, no, not separate galaxies, but further apart from each other than each is from earth. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:34, 4 January 2006 (EST)

::: My point exactly, Peter. Well said. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:05, 5 January 2006 (EST)

Can we take the part about all the colonies orbiting the same star out of the article?

== More on flags ==

I found this a while ago. A user on Sci-Fi.com's messageboard going by "bescincimevsim" has made some incredible renderings of all twelve colonial flags that, in my oppinion look very good and accurate to what has been seen on the show. It might be worth checking out the [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=1310569&Searchpage=2&Main=1310569&Words=bescincimevsim&topic=&Search=true#Post1310569 topic here]. I ''think'' they might be avalible for free use, but then again the guy doesn't seem to be available for contact anymore a he posted only one topic, the one about the flags, then stopped posting altogether in mid October. Either way, I think it should be worth checking out. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 18:05, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:We should not use these. I think they're just fanart. There is a page in the official companion of *early* flag designs (the names are wrong in some cases, etc. so this page of the book is an early draft and shouldn't be used as fact). However, this guy also confuses the symbols of Tauron and Leonis. I mean it's just a guy posting on a messageboard. The Citation Crusade wouldn't stand for it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:22, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::The assignment of colony and flag is obviously non-canon, but the graphics themselves are far superior to the ones we're using. We should ask him to license them to us under the CCL. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:56, 25 January 2006 (EST)

::Alternately, if he can be contacted, ask him to create corrected ones based on a CCL.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 14:40, 2 February 2006 (EST)

==Colonial Flags==
The Colonial Flags, as listed on this page, have been matched to their colonies based solely on on-screen evidence. Given their dubious veracity on other matters, I am not prepared to take the Official Magazine's word for it over what we've actually seen — at least not without a discussion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:26, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:Okay, then you should know that the flags also match what is written in the Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion. It has a page for Colonial Day that lists the flasg for each colony and it's the smae as the Magazine flag listings, so that's two sources that support my listings as opposed the shoddy on-screen evidence from the episodes. --Ltcrashdown 22:30, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::I've examined the footage of Colonial Day and QuintusCinna's arguments, and concluded that they aren't very strong. I'm going to revert this back to your version. Do you have a cite for the Official Companion as well? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:35, 5 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here's the info: Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion by David Bassom, page 86, Published by Titan Books, London, August 2005
:::By the way, what was QuintusCinna's source?--Ltcrashdown 22:39, 5 February 2006 (EST)

::::For the colonies at issue here, it was mostly conjecture on his part. I remembered his argument having more basis than it actually did. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:26, 8 February 2006 (EST)

== We are Gemenese of you Please! ==

I think the way this works (and once we nail it down, we should put it on S&C, probably) is that someone ''from'' Gemenon is a Gemenon, but the adjective for describing them is Gemenese. So, like, a nice Gemenese Rug or something. This is a throwback to the language of Gemenese in TOS, I think. Now... Is someone from Caprica Caprican and "a Craprica" or does that one match the adjective (like I'm from Texas, thus I am Texan and "a Texan" if that helps)? Whatcha think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 21:07, 19 February 2006 (EST)

Downloaded

2006-02-25T07:00:52Z

Bahamut: /* Notes */

{{Episode Data|
Image = [[Image:Cylon_resurrection.jpg|300px]]
| Title= Downloaded
| Series= [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|The Re-imagined Series]]
| Season= [[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode= 18
| Guests= [[Lucy Lawless]] ([[D'anna Biers]])
| Writer= [[Bradley Thompson]] and [[David Weddle]]
| Story=
| Director=[[IMDB:nm0941276|Jeff Woolnough]]
| Production=
| Rating=
| US Airdate= 24 February 2006
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=
| Population=
| Prev= [[The Captain's Hand]]
| Next= [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]
}}

== Overview ==
Cylon society is revealed when a Cylon's conciousness is downloaded into a new body following her death. The conquerors of occupied Caprica hail two "heroes of the Cylon," who both resist their new celebrity.

== Summary ==

===On Caprica===
*Episode begins with a flashback to "9 months ago - Caprica" showing Baltar's house being destroyed in the [[Miniseries]]. The copy of Number Six who had a relationship dies...and then we follow from her point of view as her consciousness is downloaded and reborn into another body in a Cylon rebirthing vat. She fell so deeply in love with Gaius Baltar that ''she'' starts having hallucinations of ''Baltar'', because the emotional impact of falling in love affected her so much. We then cut to "10 weeks ago" on ''Galactica'' when [[Cally]] shoots [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Galactica-Sharon]]...and follow from her point of view as she is downloaded (no doubt aided by the [[Resurrection Ship]] at the time) and wakes up totally disoriented in a new body in another rebirthing vat. A copy of the same model of Cylon known to humans as [[D'anna Biers]] tells her she'll be fine, but upon seeing another Sharon-model, Galactica-Sharon starts screaming uncontrollably.
*On Caprica in the present day, the Cylons are rebuilding [[Delphi]] for their own use, even making gardens. A D'anna-copy sits down to talk with the Number Six copy that seduced Baltar. She has never told anyone that she fell truly in love with Baltar, and to this day hallucinates him as a result, because she thinks the others would destroy her for being defective. The D'anna-copy asks if she will go and see another Cylon who was recently downloaded into a new body, and is still having trouble adapting: ''Galactica''-Sharon, who is also something of a celebrity and war hero for her acts of sabotage and attempted assasintation on Adama. She points out that she even still calls herself "Sharon". She warns that if she cannot be fixed, there is talk of "[[boxing]]" her: putting her consciousness in cold storage and never loading it into a new body again.
*This copy of Number Six is considered a war-hero; she was personally responsible for gaining the information that allowed the near-total sabotage of the Colonial Fleet, and has actually become something of a celebrity to the Cylons. They even refer to her specifically as "'''Caprica-Six'''".
*In a short conversation while walking to ''Galactica''-Sharon's old appartment (which she moved back into), the D'anna-copy quickly lists off the Numbers of several Cylon models: "D'anna Biers" is '''Number Three''', "Aaron Doral" is '''Number Five''', and "Sharon Valerii" is '''Number Eight'''.
*Caprica-Six goes to ''Galactica''-Sharon's appartment, where she proclaims that she doesn't believe in the Cylon God or his "love" and that the only real love she had was with the ''Galactica'' crew. She expresses intense guilt at betraying them. Caprica-Six starts to manipulate her by trying to empathize with her, saying that she loved a man too: Gaius Baltar. Startled, ''Galactica''-Sharon says that Baltar is not dead, but is the new Vice President of the Colonies, on board ''Galactica''.
*Moving their conversation to a cafe on the ground floor of Sharon's appartment, Caprica-Six and Sharon wonder why Number Three never told Caprica-Six that Baltar was alive, which they found out from ''Galactica''-Sharon. Caprica-Six (through conversation with her hallucinated Baltar) realizes that Number Three manipulated her; she thought that letting sending her to Sharon, and letting her find out that the man she loved was alive, might make her go crazy, and Number Three and excuse to have them ''both'' boxed.
*Meanwhile, [[Samuel Anders]] and two other members of the human [[Resistance (movement)|resistance]] are planning to plant a bomb in the garage underneath the cafe, and blow it up. They know the Cylons will all just download into other bodies, but Anders points out that from Caprica-Sharon, they know that Cylons remember dying, and it must be horrifically painful: they're going to show them that nowhere is safe, and they should leave Caprica if they want to stop painfully dying and being reborn over and over again.
*Number Three shows up at the cafe, and asks how things are doing. Having realized her plan, Caprica-Six lies and says emphatically that Galactica-Sharon will move out of her appartment and start adapting back to Cylon life. Galactica-Sharon takes the hint and goes along with the lie. Disappointed, Number Three offers to help her move out right now, and they leave the cafe and start going up the stairs to Sharon's appartment.
*The resistance members set up the bomb and all but Anders leave, but just before he can get out a Cylon Centurion starts snooping around, and he can't get back to the exit. It sees the bomb and Anders shoots it then ducks behind a car as the bomb goes off.
*All three Cylons survived the blast, because the stairwell protected them on the higher floor. Caprica-Six is buried under some rubble, and Number Three insists that she is dead and they should leave her (subtly trying to kill her so Three can have her boxed). However, Caprica-Six then moves and asks for help and they uncover her. Her knee is dislocated, and Three again suggests that it would be easier, if Six wants, to just kill her so she'll be reborn. Realizing Three is trying to have her boxed, she insists on not doing that.
*They see someone else moving around under some rubble, and Number Three clears it off only to find that it is Anders. She takes his gun away and prepares to kill him, but Galactica-Sharon protests. Caprica-Six agrees, but to avoid suspicion from Number Three, claims pragmatically that they shouldn't kill him to he can be interrogated. Sharon sees that he has Starbuck's dogtags, and Number Three explains that she was on the planet a few weeks ago. Sharon realizes he's someone important to her.
*Number Three cruelly toys with Anders, putting his gun on the ground and daring him to take it. Sharon tells her to stop, and Number Three retorts that Sharon is a broken machine that thinks she's human, but she's not. Sharon says that at least she has a conscience, and Number Three says she's a murderer. Caprica-Six realizes that's exactly what the Cylons have been doing: murder and the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|genocide of the human race]] cannot be the [[Cylon Religion|path of their loving God]].
*Caprica-Six realizes why Number Three wanted her and ''Galactica''-Sharon boxed: they are celebrities in a culture based on unity. Three realized that based on their love of two human beings, they have different perspective on the War, and due to their celebrity status as Cylon heros they could actually cause a change in the way many other Cylons think about their conflict with the humans, upsetting the ''status quo'' which Number Three upholds.
*Number Three says they've been corrupted by their experiences, and are a waste. Caprica-Six explains to Sharon that that is why Three wanted to get rid of them: because both of them now know the murder, vengeance, and genocide are sins in the eyes of God, and Sharon realizes that letting them tell the other Cylons this would make them all consider that the slaughter of mankind was a mistake.
*The rubble of the building shifts as Cylons outside are trying to clear their way to the survivors inside, and Anders makes a run for it and grabs his gun, shooting at Number Three before Galactica-Sharon knocks the gun out of his hands...which then lands near Number Three, who takes the gun. She stands up and just as Number Three is about to execute Anders, Caprica-Six hits her over the head with a large rock of stone from the rubble, then bashes it into her head again, killing her.
*Caprica-Six tells Anders to leave, and gives him back Starbuck's dogtags. Galactica-Sharon gives him back his gun as he leaves. Six realizes that with all of the Cylons dead in the cafe, it will be 36 hours before Number Three gets resurrected and tells the others what happened.
*Caprica-Six tells Galactica-Sharon that this is enough time to start changing things, start a new beginning for the Cylons: A way to live in God's love, without hate or lies. Together, these two Heroes of the Cylons can show them the way. Sharon says that she is with her, and they are dug out of the ruins of the building.

===On ''Galactica''===
*[[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Sharon]] has gone into labor; she passed out and her placenta detatched, and Dr. [[Cottle]] delivers the baby by C-section. It is premature and it's lungs aren't fully developed as a result, so it has to be put in an oxygen-incubator. As Caprica-Sharon predicted, it is a girl. Helo and Caprica-Sharon adore it together, and name her "[[Hera]]".
*Meanwhile, President [[Roslin]], [[Baltar]], [[William Adama|Admiral Adama]], and Col. [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] debate what to do with it. Baltar points out that it is half-human. Adama realizes the Cylons want it, and that the Cylons still hiding in the Fleet will try to make a move for it if they know about it.
*President Roslin has decided to hide Hera to protect her, so she has Cottle convice Helo and Caprica-Sharon that their baby has died (using a fake). Caprica-Sharon goes into hysterics and nearly chokes Cottle before breaking down, sobbing.
*In fact, Roslin has given her to a woman named [[Maya]], who lost her baby in the Cylon attack. Maya adopts Hera, thinking she is a normal human child from a Pegasus crewman.
*Helo, helped by Chief Tyrol, spreads the "ashes" of Hera (actually faked) out the back of a Raptor into open space.
*Number Six is devastated that Baltar "let" this happen and could not protect "their baby", though he says he did all he could. Number Six says that God's will was that Hera survive, that God's will was that "she would lead the next generation of God's children". In a rage, she says that Gaius has commited a sin, and his entire race will suffer God's vengeance.

== Questions ==
*What will D'anna's do when she is re-embodied?

== Analysis ==
*Apparently the documentary broadcast from [[the Fleet]] in "[[Final Cut]]" was not made widely available, since if Caprica-Six had seen it, she would have already known about Baltar's survival.
*In the scene where ''Galactica''-Sharon is downloaded into her new body, when another Sharon smiles and says "we love you Sharon", this mirrors how another Sharon said the same thing to her on the basestar in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", at which point she also freaked out.

== Notes ==
*Anders refers to Cylons as "Skin Jobs" in this episode, another referrence to Blade Runner.
*[[Lee Adama]] is visible in a photograph in [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)]]'s apartment in [[Delphi]]. However, Adama and Valerii had never served together prior to the events of the [[miniseries]]. This is probably a continuity error.
*Ricky Worthy (Cylon "[[Simon]]") and Callum Keith Rennie (Cylon "[[Leoben Conoy]]") do not actually appeaer in this episode. In several brief shots, body doubles dressed as their characters are seen from behind or in the distance, but these actors did not return for the episode.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

*''Caprica-Sharon has gone into premature labor with her Hybrid baby:''
:'''Cottle''': I find it absolutely amazing you people went to all the trouble to appear human, and didn't upgrade the plumbing.

== Official Statements ==
*David Eick's video blog shows the crew preparation for filming a Cylon rebirthing scene, most likely for this episode.

== Statistics ==

=== Guest Stars ===
*[[Lucy Lawless]] as [[D'anna Biers]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0722413/ Donnelly Rhodes] as Dr. [[Cottle]]
*Kerry Norton as Paramedic [[Layne Ishay]]
*[[Matthew Bennett]] as [[Aaron Doral]]
*[[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*Rekha Sharma as [[Tory Foster]]
*Alisen Down as Jean Barclay
*Erica Cerra as [[Maya]]
*Diego Diablo Del Mar as Hillard

=== Writing & Direction ===


=== Production Notes ===

*Series 2 (2005 / 2006)
*Production Number: 2.18
*Airdate Order: 18 (of 20)

=== First Run Air Dates & Releases ===

*UK Airdate: Date
*US Airdate: 24 February 2006
*DVD Release (UK): Date
*DVD Release (US): Date
*[[Wikipedia:Nielsen Rating|Nielsen Rating]]: X.X million households, XXX share

{{Episode List}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Bradley Thompson]]
[[Category:Episodes written by David Weddle]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Jeff Woolnough]]

Downloaded

2006-02-25T06:52:53Z

Bahamut:

{{Episode Data|
Image = [[Image:Cylon_resurrection.jpg|300px]]
| Title= Downloaded
| Series= [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|The Re-imagined Series]]
| Season= [[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode= 18
| Guests= [[Lucy Lawless]] ([[D'anna Biers]])
| Writer= [[Bradley Thompson]] and [[David Weddle]]
| Story=
| Director=[[IMDB:nm0941276|Jeff Woolnough]]
| Production=
| Rating=
| US Airdate= 24 February 2006
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=
| Population=
| Prev= [[The Captain's Hand]]
| Next= [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]
}}

== Overview ==
Cylon society is revealed when a Cylon's conciousness is downloaded into a new body following her death. The conquerors of occupied Caprica hail two "heroes of the Cylon," who both resist their new celebrity.

== Summary ==

===On Caprica===
*Episode begins with a flashback to "9 months ago - Caprica" showing Baltar's house being destroyed in the [[Miniseries]]. The copy of Number Six who had a relationship dies...and then we follow from her point of view as her consciousness is downloaded and reborn into another body in a Cylon rebirthing vat. She fell so deeply in love with Gaius Baltar that ''she'' starts having hallucinations of ''Baltar'', because the emotional impact of falling in love affected her so much. We then cut to "10 weeks ago" on ''Galactica'' when [[Cally]] shoots [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Galactica-Sharon]]...and follow from her point of view as she is downloaded (no doubt aided by the [[Resurrection Ship]] at the time) and wakes up totally disoriented in a new body in another rebirthing vat. A copy of the same model of Cylon known to humans as [[D'anna Biers]] tells her she'll be fine, but upon seeing another Sharon-model, Galactica-Sharon starts screaming uncontrollably.
*On Caprica in the present day, the Cylons are rebuilding [[Delphi]] for their own use, even making gardens. A D'anna-copy sits down to talk with the Number Six copy that seduced Baltar. She has never told anyone that she fell truly in love with Baltar, and to this day hallucinates him as a result, because she thinks the others would destroy her for being defective. The D'anna-copy asks if she will go and see another Cylon who was recently downloaded into a new body, and is still having trouble adapting: ''Galactica''-Sharon, who is also something of a celebrity and war hero for her acts of sabotage and attempted assasintation on Adama. She points out that she even still calls herself "Sharon". She warns that if she cannot be fixed, there is talk of "[[boxing]]" her: putting her consciousness in cold storage and never loading it into a new body again.
*This copy of Number Six is considered a war-hero; she was personally responsible for gaining the information that allowed the near-total sabotage of the Colonial Fleet, and has actually become something of a celebrity to the Cylons. They even refer to her specifically as "'''Caprica-Six'''".
*In a short conversation while walking to ''Galactica''-Sharon's old appartment (which she moved back into), the D'anna-copy quickly lists off the Numbers of several Cylon models: "D'anna Biers" is '''Number Three''', "Aaron Doral" is '''Number Five''', and "Sharon Valerii" is '''Number Eight'''.
*Caprica-Six goes to ''Galactica''-Sharon's appartment, where she proclaims that she doesn't believe in the Cylon God or his "love" and that the only real love she had was with the ''Galactica'' crew. She expresses intense guilt at betraying them. Caprica-Six starts to manipulate her by trying to empathize with her, saying that she loved a man too: Gaius Baltar. Startled, ''Galactica''-Sharon says that Baltar is not dead, but is the new Vice President of the Colonies, on board ''Galactica''.
*Moving their conversation to a cafe on the ground floor of Sharon's appartment, Caprica-Six and Sharon wonder why Number Three never told Caprica-Six that Baltar was alive, which they found out from ''Galactica''-Sharon. Caprica-Six (through conversation with her hallucinated Baltar) realizes that Number Three manipulated her; she thought that letting sending her to Sharon, and letting her find out that the man she loved was alive, might make her go crazy, and Number Three and excuse to have them ''both'' boxed.
*Meanwhile, [[Samuel Anders]] and two other members of the human [[Resistance (movement)|resistance]] are planning to plant a bomb in the garage underneath the cafe, and blow it up. They know the Cylons will all just download into other bodies, but Anders points out that from Caprica-Sharon, they know that Cylons remember dying, and it must be horrifically painful: they're going to show them that nowhere is safe, and they should leave Caprica if they want to stop painfully dying and being reborn over and over again.
*Number Three shows up at the cafe, and asks how things are doing. Having realized her plan, Caprica-Six lies and says emphatically that Galactica-Sharon will move out of her appartment and start adapting back to Cylon life. Galactica-Sharon takes the hint and goes along with the lie. Disappointed, Number Three offers to help her move out right now, and they leave the cafe and start going up the stairs to Sharon's appartment.
*The resistance members set up the bomb and all but Anders leave, but just before he can get out a Cylon Centurion starts snooping around, and he can't get back to the exit. It sees the bomb and Anders shoots it then ducks behind a car as the bomb goes off.
*All three Cylons survived the blast, because the stairwell protected them on the higher floor. Caprica-Six is buried under some rubble, and Number Three insists that she is dead and they should leave her (subtly trying to kill her so Three can have her boxed). However, Caprica-Six then moves and asks for help and they uncover her. Her knee is dislocated, and Three again suggests that it would be easier, if Six wants, to just kill her so she'll be reborn. Realizing Three is trying to have her boxed, she insists on not doing that.
*They see someone else moving around under some rubble, and Number Three clears it off only to find that it is Anders. She takes his gun away and prepares to kill him, but Galactica-Sharon protests. Caprica-Six agrees, but to avoid suspicion from Number Three, claims pragmatically that they shouldn't kill him to he can be interrogated. Sharon sees that he has Starbuck's dogtags, and Number Three explains that she was on the planet a few weeks ago. Sharon realizes he's someone important to her.
*Number Three cruelly toys with Anders, putting his gun on the ground and daring him to take it. Sharon tells her to stop, and Number Three retorts that Sharon is a broken machine that thinks she's human, but she's not. Sharon says that at least she has a conscience, and Number Three says she's a murderer. Caprica-Six realizes that's exactly what the Cylons have been doing: murder and the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|genocide of the human race]] cannot be the [[Cylon religion|path of their loving God]].
*Caprica-Six realizes why Number Three wanted her and ''Galactica''-Sharon boxed: they are celebrities in a culture based on unity. Three realized that based on their love of two human beings, they have different perspective on the War, and due to their celebrity status as Cylon heros they could actually cause a change in the way many other Cylons think about their conflict with the humans, upsetting the ''status quo'' which Number Three upholds.
*Number Three says they've been corrupted by their experiences, and are a waste. Caprica-Six explains to Sharon that that is why Three wanted to get rid of them: because both of them now know the murder, vengeance, and genocide are sins in the eyes of God, and Sharon realizes that letting them tell the other Cylons this would make them all consider that the slaughter of mankind was a mistake.
*The rubble of the building shifts as Cylons outside are trying to clear their way to the survivors inside, and Anders makes a run for it and grabs his gun, shooting at Number Three before Galactica-Sharon knocks the gun out of his hands...which then lands near Number Three, who takes the gun. She stands up and just as Number Three is about to execute Anders, Caprica-Six hits her over the head with a large rock of stone from the rubble, then bashes it into her head again, killing her.
*Caprica-Six tells Anders to leave, and gives him back Starbuck's dogtags. Galactica-Sharon gives him back his gun as he leaves. Six realizes that with all of the Cylons dead in the cafe, it will be 36 hours before Number Three gets resurrected and tells the others what happened.
*Caprica-Six tells Galactica-Sharon that this is enough time to start changing things, start a new beginning for the Cylons: A way to live in God's love, without hate or lies. Together, these two Heroes of the Cylons can show them the way. Sharon says that she is with her, and they are dug out of the ruins of the building.

===On ''Galactica''===
*[[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Sharon]] has gone into labor; she passed out and her placenta detatched, and Dr. [[Cottle]] delivers the baby by C-section. It is premature and it's lungs aren't fully developed as a result, so it has to be put in an oxygen-incubator. As Caprica-Sharon predicted, it is a girl. Helo and Caprica-Sharon adore it together, and name her "[[Hera]]".
*Meanwhile, President [[Roslin]], [[Baltar]], [[William Adama|Admiral Adama]], and Col. [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] debate what to do with it. Baltar points out that it is half-human. Adama realizes the Cylons want it, and that the Cylons still hiding in the Fleet will try to make a move for it if they know about it.
*President Roslin has decided to hide Hera to protect her, so she has Cottle convice Helo and Caprica-Sharon that their baby has died (using a fake). Caprica-Sharon goes into hysterics and nearly chokes Cottle before breaking down, sobbing.
*In fact, Roslin has given her to a woman named [[Maya]], who lost her baby in the Cylon attack. Maya adopts Hera, thinking she is a normal human child from a Pegasus crewman.
*Helo, helped by Chief Tyrol, spreads the "ashes" of Hera (actually faked) out the back of a Raptor into open space.
*Number Six is devastated that Baltar "let" this happen and could not protect "their baby", though he says he did all he could. Number Six says that God's will was that Hera survive, that God's will was that "she would lead the next generation of God's children". In a rage, she says that Gaius has commited a sin, and his entire race will suffer God's vengeance.

== Questions ==
*What will D'anna's do when she is re-embodied?

== Analysis ==
*Apparently the documentary broadcast from [[the Fleet]] in "[[Final Cut]]" was not made widely available, since if Caprica-Six had seen it, she would have already known about Baltar's survival.
*In the scene where ''Galactica''-Sharon is downloaded into her new body, when another Sharon smiles and says "we love you Sharon", this mirrors how another Sharon said the same thing to her on the basestar in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]", at which point she also freaked out.

== Notes ==
*Anders refers to Cylons as "Skin Jobs" in this episode, another referrence to Blade Runner.
*[[Lee Adama]] is visible in a photograph in [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)]]'s apartment in [[Delphi]]. However, Adama and Valerii had never served together prior to the events of the [[miniseries]]. This is probably a continuity error.
*Ricky Worthy (Cylon "[[Simon]]") and Callum Keith Rennie (Cylon "[[Leoben Conoy]]" do not actually appeaer in this episode. In several brief shots, body doubles dressed as their characters are seen from behind or in the distance, but these actors did not return for the episode.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Official Statements ==
*David Eick's video blog shows the crew preparation for filming a Cylon rebirthing scene, most likely for this episode.

== Statistics ==

=== Guest Stars ===
*[[Lucy Lawless]] as [[D'anna Biers]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0722413/ Donnelly Rhodes] as Dr. [[Cottle]]
*Kerry Norton as Paramedic [[Layne Ishay]]
*[[Matthew Bennett]] as [[Aaron Doral]]
*[[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*Rekha Sharma as [[Tory Foster]]
*Alisen Down as Jean Barclay
*Erica Cerra as [[Maya]]
*Diego Diablo Del Mar as Hillard

=== Writing & Direction ===


=== Production Notes ===

*Series 2 (2005 / 2006)
*Production Number: 2.18
*Airdate Order: 18 (of 20)

=== First Run Air Dates & Releases ===

*UK Airdate: Date
*US Airdate: 24 February 2006
*DVD Release (UK): Date
*DVD Release (US): Date
*[[Wikipedia:Nielsen Rating|Nielsen Rating]]: X.X million households, XXX share

{{Episode List}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Bradley Thompson]]
[[Category:Episodes written by David Weddle]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Jeff Woolnough]]