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User:Azselendor

2012-05-22T01:19:03Z

Azselendor:

<div style="padding: 1em 1em 1em 2em; position: relative;">
;Galactican
:since [[w:2005|2005]]
;Contributions
:[[Special:Contributions/Azselendor|here]]
; Contact
: [[Special:Emailuser/Azselendor]]
: AIM  IM: '''Azselendor'''
</div>

=== Things I plan to do here ===
<div style="padding: 1em 1em 1em 2em; position: relative;">
;Overall Plans
: I plan to work on topics about BSG Products and Merchandise, Religion, And maybe touching up articles to look nice.
;TV Shows
: [[Battlestar Galactica]] - duh
;Other stuff
:[[w:history|history]], [[w:politics|politics]], [[w:athiests|athiests]]
</div>

User:Azselendor

2007-04-25T04:26:44Z

Azselendor: fixed a broken link

<div style="padding: 1em 1em 1em 2em; position: relative;">
;DTSL Williams
:of [[Orlando]], [[Florida]] in the [[United States]]
;Galactican
:since [[2005]]
;Contributions
:[[Special:Contributions/Azselendor|here]]
; Contact
: [[Special:Emailuser/Azselendor]]
: AIM  IM: '''Azselendor'''
;I work for
: [http://www.xtermpest.com Orlando Pest Control]
: [http://www.orbportals.com/ Orb Portals Studios]
</div>

=== Things I plan to do here ===
<div style="padding: 1em 1em 1em 2em; position: relative;">
;Overall Plans
: I plan to work on topics about BSG Products and Merchandise, Religion, And maybe touching up articles to look nice.
;TV Shows
: [[Battlestar Galactica]] - duh
;Other stuff
:[[history]], [[politics]], [[athiests]]
</div>

{{userpage}}

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2007-02-26T22:35:00Z

Azselendor: /* Material Losses */

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

With the survivor count reinstated in "Collaborators" we now know that about 2000 people died on New Caprica, both in the insurgency and the exodus.<br>
LDYB: 39,192 + 2,000 + 2,200 = 43,392 (2000 in the escaped civilian ships, 2200 on both half-strength battlestars)<br>
Collaborators: 41,435<br>
Since there is some rounding and guessing involved anyways, "approximately 2000" seems to be the best.

It can also be assumed that a couple of civilian ships were destroyed or left back on the planet, as numerous civilians are on Galactica. RDM mentioned that in the podcast as well. We just didn't see it on screen. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:16, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:Unfortunately, that covers the entire time span between LDYB2 and Collaborators, nearly five months. We can be sure that many died in the Exodus, but many of those casualties must have taken place during the occupation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:43, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::True, but not even a larger part of it. There wasn't ''that'' much fighting until shortly before the end. Just guessing I'd say less than 300 during the occupation. That still leaves a sizeable amount of losses during the evacuation
::Maybe a note, saying that it includes the losses during the whole occupation? It's probably the closest we'll ever get to an accurate number and far better than "unknown" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:48, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Also, please dont neglect the destruction of Cloud Nine and the other two vessels alongside - they may have had a few 1000 people on them... --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 19:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:We haven't. See [[survivor count]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:06, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Why are deaths in the insurgency being included in the casualties box? Approx 500 people died during it so that would make the losses of the actual battle at roughly 1500. So again, why are insurgency deaths being included? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 15:37, 22 December 2006 (CST)

:Where are you getting 500 from? As far as I know, we don't know how many people died in the insurgency. We heard some numbers from isolated incidents but have no idea what happened offscreen. If you can proove those numbers, sure. But unless I missed something, it seems like speculation to me.
:One could even argue that the resistance also belongs to the battle. At least it led up to it and made it possible --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 08:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Ok, I've solved this once and for all. First, its likely that Galactica was moving with some velocity when it jumped, so this velocity was maintained after the jump as previous jumps with Raptors prove that velocity is maintained. Add to that the increase of acceleration that started as soon as Galactica finished the jump. When the major said "altitude 99,000, falling like a rock", he was probably referring to meters, and not feet. So more like 328,000 feet, give or take, or 62 miles, meaning that Galactica was above the theshold of what we call space here on Earth. Like the suborbital Mercury craft, Galactica experienced superheating on its underside because it was in fact passing through the atmosphere of New Caprica. The reason it looked like it was so much lower was because the ship is nearly a frakking mile (1.6 frakking kilometers) long. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 17:05, 09 November 2006 (CDT)

It might be worth noting that Tyrol and Tigh were looking in different directions as Galactica Belly Flopped, and neither were looking in the direction where galactica was. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 11:19, 15 February 2007 (CST)

==A New Piece of Information About Galactica==
It seems like everyones talking about what Galactica's TV may or may not be, but to me the more interesting piece of information we can learn from the battle is that apparently, Galactica isn't designed to land on a planet's surface. Firstly, it lacks any sort of vertical thrusters, secondly, its surface seemed to not respond well to the head of re-entry, thirdly, Galactica has no apparent landing struts or similar devices. Also, we learn that many of the ships in the colonial fleet CAN land. Well actually we learned this earlier in LDYB, but now we also learn that they can take off. From all of this we can infer that Galactica was built, or at least assembled entirely in space, where it is born, lives, fights, and dies. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 15:14, 3 November 2006 (EST)

:Hi, Antagonist. It's not entirely new information; Gaeta alludes to this when Adama suggests going to Kobol himself, thinking that Adama meant taking the battlestar intraatmosphere ([[Home, Part II]]). I can't think of where any stats of the ship ever said it was a true spaceship, however, these also are not new; the remnants of the Fleet orbiting [[New Caprica]] in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] also apparently lacked landing ability. Yes, it's most likely that all battlestars are forever spaceborne. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 3 November 2006 (EST)

==Galactica Battle Scars==
Is it just me but I have seen that the hull of Galactica looks almost black from the battle. There was a shot of the ship passing by that had a great view of the damage. --[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 11:14, 8 November 2006 (EDT)

==Material Losses==
When the screen cuts from Lee leaving the CIC, it shows Pegasus going up to colide with the one Basestar, but in the background is the 3rd Basestar and I noticed it had two noticeable "flaming" spots on one of each of its topside and bottomside "points" and as far as we know, it was the only surviving Basestar of the four. This might classify moderate damage to a Basestar, but (just to clarify) is this worth putting in the Battle Data (Moderate damage to 1 Basestar)? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 06:18, 2 December 2006 (CST)
: I do not see any evidence 3 basestars were lost, only two during Pegasus' final run. a 3rd received moderate damaged (pegasus passed it during the final run) and the 4th (pegasus' opening volley) appears to have been routed from the battlefield by pegasus' destruction, but it appears on dradis screens at points after the opening volley, so I would say, not destroyed. As what we saw was not consistent with the destruction or crippling of basestars we've seen in resurrection ship, captain's hand, and torn. I'm inclined to say material losses was 2 basestars lost, 1 crippled and routed, 1 moderately damaged. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 11:15, 15 February 2007 (CST)

:where does your third basestar go? we see Pegasus hit one with its forward batteries but it isnt a confirmed kill as it definetly appears on DRADIS in the next scene only 2 Basestars are confirmed kills in this fight Too many people seem to assume the ship that takes the initial volley dies or suffers extensive damage yet we see Battlestars shrug off this kind of damage all the time with minimum effect. for example Pegasus is under bombardment from at a minimum 3 basestars and in all likelyhood 4 along with whatever the raiders can do for at least aslong as it takes for CMDR Adama to get between CIC and the escape Raptors {{unsigned|Furrygophe}}

::Good analysis, Azselendor. If you can note the timestamps of where you see the basestar sources if called upon by other contributors, then it's worthy to update the article to your observations. --15:16, 15 February 2007 (CST)

::: All I need to do is get the episode in high def and I can confirm the damages, because I think I spotted the 4th basestar partially obscured by another one. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 10:57, 26 February 2007 (CST)

::::Actually, I was rewatching the episode earlier. AVI, not the best of quality, but I make do and I've got some experience watching for little technical details. If you look really carefully at that first basestar Pegasus hits, it looks like the hull begins to undergo considerable warping during the explosions. I'm pretty sure I saw at least one of the prongs on the basestar move, slowly angling away from the rest of the ship. Since Pegasus looked like it was targeting the central axis of that basestar, this implies one of the basestar's prongs was completely decapitated, or at least structurall compromised. Since a basestar is what, 70% prongs? I'd say that if one of the prongs was indeed severed near its root, it would constitute massive damage. Could the Pegasus do such damage with only 4 hits? Maybe, there's always the chance she rolled a 20 and scored a critical. And well, she is THE Pegasus. Interestingly enough, if you watch the 4th hit on the basestar, you'll see that it seems to cause an explosion on impact, but it then proceeds continue on and pass THROUGH the basestar. Maybe Pegy was throwing some penetrators along with the high explosives? Who knows? Plus, she was charging straight at that particular basestar, her velocity would've been positively imparted to her shots. Why didn't we see such a damaged basestar later? Well, it's not like the CG people never screws up, either way. Maybe it was the opposite, and they over did the damage effects from the initial volley against the basestar. --[[User:David Templar|David Templar]] 13:55, 26 February 2007 (CST)

::::: At 28:19/20, the dradis screen appears to show 4 basestars on it. If anything, I'd say the one hit in the initial attack was crippled and left stricken as it doesn't seem to participate in the battle afterwards. We need an HD copy to confirm all of this. But I also, reviewing the initial attack, it appears the first basestar suffered considerable damage, however, Pegasus missed a considerable number of shots too. It could very well be that several shots passed throw the explosions and missed the target. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 16:35, 26 February 2007 (CST)

==Media Wiki Error?==

Okay, i just uploaded a new version of the photo that was being used before, but now, for some reason, 'BONC.jpg' no longer exists, although its DEFINITELY there on the media wiki. Grrr - i much prefer the old days before there were two separate sites. Can someone fix this? --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 06:18, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Never mind! All fixed :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 06:20, 28 January 2007 (CST)

Battle of New Caprica

2007-02-26T17:01:54Z

Azselendor: adjusted for and unconfirmed kill

{{Battle Data
| name=Battle of New Caprica
| image=BONC.jpg
| description=
| conflict=[[Cylon Attack|Second Cylon War]]
| date=
| place=Near [[New Caprica]] space; on New Caprica
| result=Successful retrieval of [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]], deposition of the [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] administration, [[Hera]] is captured by Cylons
| combatant1=Remnants of the [[Colonial Fleet]]
| combatant2=[[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]]
| co1=Admiral [[William Adama]], Commander [[Lee Adama]], Colonel [[Saul Tigh]], Former President [[Laura Roslin]]
| co2=[[Basestar command]]
| strength1=Battlestars ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' and '' [[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'',<br/> [[Blue Squadron (RDM)|Blue Squadron]],<br/> Resistance team and associated Colonial [[Marines]]
| strength2=Four [[Basestar (RDM)|basestars]], associated [[Cylon Raider (RDM)|Raiders]], [[Heavy Raider]]s,<br/> Ground occupation forces and associated <br/>[[Cylon Centurion]]s
| shiploss1=Battlestar ''Pegasus'',<br/> several civilian ships <br/>(off screen),<br/>Heavy damage to ''Galactica''
| shiploss2=At least two basestars<br/>One Basestar possibly destroyed<br/>Moderate damage to 1 basestar
| casualties1=Approximately 2000<ref>This number is calculated from all available population data. See the "Precipice" and "Collaborators" section of [[Survivor count]] for the details.</ref><br>
| casualties2=Unknown, Heavy
| prev=[[Battle of the Binary Star System]]
| next=[[Battle of NCD2539]]
| rdm=y
}}
[[Galactica type battlestar|Battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'' launches a daring mission to occupy the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon force's]] attention as the majority of the Colonial citizens escape from Cylon occupation on [[New Caprica]].

Greatly outnumbered, Admiral [[William Adama]] enacts an elaborate plan that relies on a squadron of [[Raptor]]s (with a [[Viper (RDM)|Viper]] escort squadron) to fire a series of [[swallow]]s that collectively mimic the EM signatures of the Colonial battlestars. After firing the swallows, the Raptors retreat, luring several [[Cylon Raider (RDM)|Cylon Raiders]] further from the fight. The Cylons are deceived temporarily by the false readings.

On [[New Caprica]], [[Samuel Anders]] and the resistance team detonate dozens of bombs in key Cylon structures as a feigned attack by Colonial forces. The people evacuate per their fire-drill training, but escape to the various grounded ships of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]], which prepare their engines and [[FTL]] drives to depart. Many people, however, become pinned down by [[Cylon Centurion|Centurion]] fire.

Admiral Adama performs an extremely risky move. He orders ''Galactica'' to conduct an intra-atmosphere jump, escaping the detection of the [[Basestar (RDM)|basestars]]. While in freefall, it launches [[Blue Squadron (RDM)|Blue Squadron]]. Blue Squadron performs hit-and-run attacks on the Cylons on the ground, those in [[Guard towers|observation towers]], interdicts the few Raiders operating near the surface, and eliminates the main gates of the shipyard where the grounded civilian ships are kept. Before the battlestar impacts the surface, ''Galactica'' performs a second jump back into space. Stress from the vibration and heat of entry have heavily taxed the structure of the battlestar.

Soon, the two basestars move on ''Galactica'' without any fighter support as their Raiders are engaged elsewhere. ''Galactica''’s mission analysis had predicted that only two [[Basestar (RDM)|basestars]] would engage ''Galactica''. However, two more basestars jump into the vicinity and four basestars converge to attack the battlestar.

With the Vipers destroying targets on the ground and in the air in vicinity of New Caprica City, the civilians previously pinned down are able to board their ships. Simultaneously, Colonial [[Marines]] and resistance members assault the [[New Caprica Detention Center|detention center]], freeing [[Kara Thrace]] and other detainees.

The Cylons in charge on the ground realize the ground situation is lost and escape in a Heavy Raider as they task [[Number Three]] with setting off a nuclear detonation to "clean up."

Before long, ''Galactica's'' FTL drives and maneuvering thrusters are disabled, and the port side of the ship reaches its structural limits. Upon hearing that the FTL drive was disabled, Admiral Adama tells his crew, "Then that's it. It's been an honor." Battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' then arrives with its forward batteries blazing, scoring several hits that severely damage or destroy one basestar. Commander [[Lee Adama]] orders his battlestar towards the basestars to give ''Galactica'' time to repair its FTL drive and escape. Meanwhile, most of the civilian ships become airborne and jump away.

Commander Adama directs his ship to a position between the basestars targeting ''Galactica'', in an effort to draw fire away from her. Admiral Adama infers from the absence of Vipers from ''Pegasus'' that its Vipers are guarding the remaining ships of the Fleet at the rendezvous point and that ''Pegasus'' is on a one-way trip. While ''Pegasus'' "was taking a hell of a pounding," the crew of ''Galactica'' is able to bring its FTL back on line. Admiral Adama immediately orders his crew to land its birds and prepare to jump.

With ''Pegasus'' taking phenomenal damage, Commander Adama orders all hands to abandon ship, using standby Raptors to jump away from the battle. He ensures that the weapons were set to autofire and that the ship is on a collision course with one of the basestars before departing. The damaged, unmanned ''Pegasus'' collides with one basestar, destroying both. The remnants of ''Pegasus''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s starboard [[flight pod]] collide with another of the remaining basestars, destroying it.

''[[Colonial One]]'' is the last Colonial ship to leave the planet, with [[Laura Roslin]] back in her old chair in place of the deposed president, Gaius Baltar ([[Exodus, Part II]]). On the surface, the Cylons' planned nuclear detonation (which would be of questionable tactical value now that the Colonials have left the planet) does not occur.

__NOTOC__
== Battle Imagery ==
=== Raptors and Vipers ===
<gallery>
Image:Vipers_and_Raptors_placing_decoys.jpg|
Image:Raptor_Decoys_Away.jpg|
Image:Raptor_Decoys_Away_(2).jpg|
Image:Raptor_Decoys_Away_(3).jpg|
</gallery>
=== ''Galactica'''s Surprise Attack ===
<gallery>
Image:Galactica_in_Atmosphere.jpg|
Image:Galactica_in_Atmosphere_(2).jpg|
Image:Galactica_in_Atmosphere_(3).jpg|
Image:Galactica_in_Atmosphere_FTLing.jpg|
Image:Galactica_in_Atmosphere_FTLing_(2).jpg|
</gallery>
=== ''Pegasus’s'' Suicide Run ===
<gallery>
Image:Pegaus_Ram.jpg|
Image:Pegaus_Ram_(2).jpg|
Image:Pegaus_Ram_(3).jpg|
Image:Pegasusflightpod.jpg|
Image:Pegasusbaseshipsremains.jpg|
</gallery>

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[de:Schlacht von Neu Caprica]]

{{Battles (RDM)}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category:Colonial Battles]]
[[Category:Colonial Battles (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2007-02-26T16:57:27Z

Azselendor: /* Material Losses */

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

With the survivor count reinstated in "Collaborators" we now know that about 2000 people died on New Caprica, both in the insurgency and the exodus.<br>
LDYB: 39,192 + 2,000 + 2,200 = 43,392 (2000 in the escaped civilian ships, 2200 on both half-strength battlestars)<br>
Collaborators: 41,435<br>
Since there is some rounding and guessing involved anyways, "approximately 2000" seems to be the best.

It can also be assumed that a couple of civilian ships were destroyed or left back on the planet, as numerous civilians are on Galactica. RDM mentioned that in the podcast as well. We just didn't see it on screen. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:16, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:Unfortunately, that covers the entire time span between LDYB2 and Collaborators, nearly five months. We can be sure that many died in the Exodus, but many of those casualties must have taken place during the occupation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:43, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::True, but not even a larger part of it. There wasn't ''that'' much fighting until shortly before the end. Just guessing I'd say less than 300 during the occupation. That still leaves a sizeable amount of losses during the evacuation
::Maybe a note, saying that it includes the losses during the whole occupation? It's probably the closest we'll ever get to an accurate number and far better than "unknown" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:48, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Also, please dont neglect the destruction of Cloud Nine and the other two vessels alongside - they may have had a few 1000 people on them... --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 19:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:We haven't. See [[survivor count]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:06, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Why are deaths in the insurgency being included in the casualties box? Approx 500 people died during it so that would make the losses of the actual battle at roughly 1500. So again, why are insurgency deaths being included? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 15:37, 22 December 2006 (CST)

:Where are you getting 500 from? As far as I know, we don't know how many people died in the insurgency. We heard some numbers from isolated incidents but have no idea what happened offscreen. If you can proove those numbers, sure. But unless I missed something, it seems like speculation to me.
:One could even argue that the resistance also belongs to the battle. At least it led up to it and made it possible --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 08:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Ok, I've solved this once and for all. First, its likely that Galactica was moving with some velocity when it jumped, so this velocity was maintained after the jump as previous jumps with Raptors prove that velocity is maintained. Add to that the increase of acceleration that started as soon as Galactica finished the jump. When the major said "altitude 99,000, falling like a rock", he was probably referring to meters, and not feet. So more like 328,000 feet, give or take, or 62 miles, meaning that Galactica was above the theshold of what we call space here on Earth. Like the suborbital Mercury craft, Galactica experienced superheating on its underside because it was in fact passing through the atmosphere of New Caprica. The reason it looked like it was so much lower was because the ship is nearly a frakking mile (1.6 frakking kilometers) long. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 17:05, 09 November 2006 (CDT)

It might be worth noting that Tyrol and Tigh were looking in different directions as Galactica Belly Flopped, and neither were looking in the direction where galactica was. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 11:19, 15 February 2007 (CST)

==A New Piece of Information About Galactica==
It seems like everyones talking about what Galactica's TV may or may not be, but to me the more interesting piece of information we can learn from the battle is that apparently, Galactica isn't designed to land on a planet's surface. Firstly, it lacks any sort of vertical thrusters, secondly, its surface seemed to not respond well to the head of re-entry, thirdly, Galactica has no apparent landing struts or similar devices. Also, we learn that many of the ships in the colonial fleet CAN land. Well actually we learned this earlier in LDYB, but now we also learn that they can take off. From all of this we can infer that Galactica was built, or at least assembled entirely in space, where it is born, lives, fights, and dies. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 15:14, 3 November 2006 (EST)

:Hi, Antagonist. It's not entirely new information; Gaeta alludes to this when Adama suggests going to Kobol himself, thinking that Adama meant taking the battlestar intraatmosphere ([[Home, Part II]]). I can't think of where any stats of the ship ever said it was a true spaceship, however, these also are not new; the remnants of the Fleet orbiting [[New Caprica]] in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] also apparently lacked landing ability. Yes, it's most likely that all battlestars are forever spaceborne. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 3 November 2006 (EST)

==Galactica Battle Scars==
Is it just me but I have seen that the hull of Galactica looks almost black from the battle. There was a shot of the ship passing by that had a great view of the damage. --[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 11:14, 8 November 2006 (EDT)

==Material Losses==
When the screen cuts from Lee leaving the CIC, it shows Pegasus going up to colide with the one Basestar, but in the background is the 3rd Basestar and I noticed it had two noticeable "flaming" spots on one of each of its topside and bottomside "points" and as far as we know, it was the only surviving Basestar of the four. This might classify moderate damage to a Basestar, but (just to clarify) is this worth putting in the Battle Data (Moderate damage to 1 Basestar)? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 06:18, 2 December 2006 (CST)
: I do not see any evidence 3 basestars were lost, only two during Pegasus' final run. a 3rd received moderate damaged (pegasus passed it during the final run) and the 4th (pegasus' opening volley) appears to have been routed from the battlefield by pegasus' destruction, but it appears on dradis screens at points after the opening volley, so I would say, not destroyed. As what we saw was not consistent with the destruction or crippling of basestars we've seen in resurrection ship, captain's hand, and torn. I'm inclined to say material losses was 2 basestars lost, 1 crippled and routed, 1 moderately damaged. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 11:15, 15 February 2007 (CST)

:where does your third basestar go? we see Pegasus hit one with its forward batteries but it isnt a confirmed kill as it definetly appears on DRADIS in the next scene only 2 Basestars are confirmed kills in this fight Too many people seem to assume the ship that takes the initial volley dies or suffers extensive damage yet we see Battlestars shrug off this kind of damage all the time with minimum effect. for example Pegasus is under bombardment from at a minimum 3 basestars and in all likelyhood 4 along with whatever the raiders can do for at least aslong as it takes for CMDR Adama to get between CIC and the escape Raptors {{unsigned|Furrygophe}}

::Good analysis, Azselendor. If you can note the timestamps of where you see the basestar sources if called upon by other contributors, then it's worthy to update the article to your observations. --15:16, 15 February 2007 (CST)
::: All I need to do is get the episode in high def and I can confirm the damages, because I think I spotted the 4th basestar partially obscured by another one. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 10:57, 26 February 2007 (CST)

==Media Wiki Error?==

Okay, i just uploaded a new version of the photo that was being used before, but now, for some reason, 'BONC.jpg' no longer exists, although its DEFINITELY there on the media wiki. Grrr - i much prefer the old days before there were two separate sites. Can someone fix this? --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 06:18, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Never mind! All fixed :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 06:20, 28 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2007-02-15T17:19:05Z

Azselendor: /* Atmospheric Heating Effects */

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

With the survivor count reinstated in "Collaborators" we now know that about 2000 people died on New Caprica, both in the insurgency and the exodus.<br>
LDYB: 39,192 + 2,000 + 2,200 = 43,392 (2000 in the escaped civilian ships, 2200 on both half-strength battlestars)<br>
Collaborators: 41,435<br>
Since there is some rounding and guessing involved anyways, "approximately 2000" seems to be the best.

It can also be assumed that a couple of civilian ships were destroyed or left back on the planet, as numerous civilians are on Galactica. RDM mentioned that in the podcast as well. We just didn't see it on screen. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:16, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:Unfortunately, that covers the entire time span between LDYB2 and Collaborators, nearly five months. We can be sure that many died in the Exodus, but many of those casualties must have taken place during the occupation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:43, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::True, but not even a larger part of it. There wasn't ''that'' much fighting until shortly before the end. Just guessing I'd say less than 300 during the occupation. That still leaves a sizeable amount of losses during the evacuation
::Maybe a note, saying that it includes the losses during the whole occupation? It's probably the closest we'll ever get to an accurate number and far better than "unknown" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:48, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Also, please dont neglect the destruction of Cloud Nine and the other two vessels alongside - they may have had a few 1000 people on them... --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 19:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:We haven't. See [[survivor count]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:06, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Why are deaths in the insurgency being included in the casualties box? Approx 500 people died during it so that would make the losses of the actual battle at roughly 1500. So again, why are insurgency deaths being included? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 15:37, 22 December 2006 (CST)

:Where are you getting 500 from? As far as I know, we don't know how many people died in the insurgency. We heard some numbers from isolated incidents but have no idea what happened offscreen. If you can proove those numbers, sure. But unless I missed something, it seems like speculation to me.
:One could even argue that the resistance also belongs to the battle. At least it led up to it and made it possible --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 08:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Ok, I've solved this once and for all. First, its likely that Galactica was moving with some velocity when it jumped, so this velocity was maintained after the jump as previous jumps with Raptors prove that velocity is maintained. Add to that the increase of acceleration that started as soon as Galactica finished the jump. When the major said "altitude 99,000, falling like a rock", he was probably referring to meters, and not feet. So more like 328,000 feet, give or take, or 62 miles, meaning that Galactica was above the theshold of what we call space here on Earth. Like the suborbital Mercury craft, Galactica experienced superheating on its underside because it was in fact passing through the atmosphere of New Caprica. The reason it looked like it was so much lower was because the ship is nearly a frakking mile (1.6 frakking kilometers) long. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 17:05, 09 November 2006 (CDT)

It might be worth noting that Tyrol and Tigh were looking in different directions as Galactica Belly Flopped, and neither were looking in the direction where galactica was. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 11:19, 15 February 2007 (CST)

==A New Piece of Information About Galactica==
It seems like everyones talking about what Galactica's TV may or may not be, but to me the more interesting piece of information we can learn from the battle is that apparently, Galactica isn't designed to land on a planet's surface. Firstly, it lacks any sort of vertical thrusters, secondly, its surface seemed to not respond well to the head of re-entry, thirdly, Galactica has no apparent landing struts or similar devices. Also, we learn that many of the ships in the colonial fleet CAN land. Well actually we learned this earlier in LDYB, but now we also learn that they can take off. From all of this we can infer that Galactica was built, or at least assembled entirely in space, where it is born, lives, fights, and dies. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 15:14, 3 November 2006 (EST)

:Hi, Antagonist. It's not entirely new information; Gaeta alludes to this when Adama suggests going to Kobol himself, thinking that Adama meant taking the battlestar intraatmosphere ([[Home, Part II]]). I can't think of where any stats of the ship ever said it was a true spaceship, however, these also are not new; the remnants of the Fleet orbiting [[New Caprica]] in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] also apparently lacked landing ability. Yes, it's most likely that all battlestars are forever spaceborne. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 3 November 2006 (EST)

==Galactica Battle Scars==
Is it just me but I have seen that the hull of Galactica looks almost black from the battle. There was a shot of the ship passing by that had a great view of the damage. --[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 11:14, 8 November 2006 (EDT)

==Material Losses==
When the screen cuts from Lee leaving the CIC, it shows Pegasus going up to colide with the one Basestar, but in the background is the 3rd Basestar and I noticed it had two noticeable "flaming" spots on one of each of its topside and bottomside "points" and as far as we know, it was the only surviving Basestar of the four. This might classify moderate damage to a Basestar, but (just to clarify) is this worth putting in the Battle Data (Moderate damage to 1 Basestar)? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 06:18, 2 December 2006 (CST)
: I do not see any evidence 3 basestars were lost, only two during Pegasus' final run. a 3rd received moderate damaged (pegasus passed it during the final run) and the 4th (pegasus' opening volley) appears to have been routed from the battlefield by pegasus' destruction, but it appears on dradis screens at points after the opening volley, so I would say, not destroyed. As what we saw was not consistent with the destruction or crippling of basestars we've seen in resurrection ship, captain's hand, and torn. I'm inclined to say material losses was 2 basestars lost, 1 crippled and routed, 1 moderately damaged. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 11:15, 15 February 2007 (CST)

where does your third basestar go? we see Pegasus hit one with its forward batteries but it isnt a confirmed kill as it definetly appears on DRADIS in the next scene only 2 Basestars are confirmed kills in this fight Too many people seem to assume the ship that takes the initial volley dies or suffers extensive damage yet we see Battlestars shrug off this kind of damage all the time with minimum effect. for example Pegasus is under bombardment from at a minimum 3 basestars and in all likelyhood 4 along with whatever the raiders can do for at least aslong as it takes for CMDR Adama to get between CIC and the escape Raptors {{unsigned|Furrygophe}}

==Media Wiki Error?==

Okay, i just uploaded a new version of the photo that was being used before, but now, for some reason, 'BONC.jpg' no longer exists, although its DEFINITELY there on the media wiki. Grrr - i much prefer the old days before there were two separate sites. Can someone fix this? --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 06:18, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Never mind! All fixed :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 06:20, 28 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2007-02-15T17:15:55Z

Azselendor: /* Material Losses */

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

With the survivor count reinstated in "Collaborators" we now know that about 2000 people died on New Caprica, both in the insurgency and the exodus.<br>
LDYB: 39,192 + 2,000 + 2,200 = 43,392 (2000 in the escaped civilian ships, 2200 on both half-strength battlestars)<br>
Collaborators: 41,435<br>
Since there is some rounding and guessing involved anyways, "approximately 2000" seems to be the best.

It can also be assumed that a couple of civilian ships were destroyed or left back on the planet, as numerous civilians are on Galactica. RDM mentioned that in the podcast as well. We just didn't see it on screen. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:16, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:Unfortunately, that covers the entire time span between LDYB2 and Collaborators, nearly five months. We can be sure that many died in the Exodus, but many of those casualties must have taken place during the occupation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:43, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::True, but not even a larger part of it. There wasn't ''that'' much fighting until shortly before the end. Just guessing I'd say less than 300 during the occupation. That still leaves a sizeable amount of losses during the evacuation
::Maybe a note, saying that it includes the losses during the whole occupation? It's probably the closest we'll ever get to an accurate number and far better than "unknown" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:48, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Also, please dont neglect the destruction of Cloud Nine and the other two vessels alongside - they may have had a few 1000 people on them... --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 19:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:We haven't. See [[survivor count]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:06, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Why are deaths in the insurgency being included in the casualties box? Approx 500 people died during it so that would make the losses of the actual battle at roughly 1500. So again, why are insurgency deaths being included? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 15:37, 22 December 2006 (CST)

:Where are you getting 500 from? As far as I know, we don't know how many people died in the insurgency. We heard some numbers from isolated incidents but have no idea what happened offscreen. If you can proove those numbers, sure. But unless I missed something, it seems like speculation to me.
:One could even argue that the resistance also belongs to the battle. At least it led up to it and made it possible --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 08:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Ok, I've solved this once and for all. First, its likely that Galactica was moving with some velocity when it jumped, so this velocity was maintained after the jump as previous jumps with Raptors prove that velocity is maintained. Add to that the increase of acceleration that started as soon as Galactica finished the jump. When the major said "altitude 99,000, falling like a rock", he was probably referring to meters, and not feet. So more like 328,000 feet, give or take, or 62 miles, meaning that Galactica was above the theshold of what we call space here on Earth. Like the suborbital Mercury craft, Galactica experienced superheating on its underside because it was in fact passing through the atmosphere of New Caprica. The reason it looked like it was so much lower was because the ship is nearly a frakking mile (1.6 frakking kilometers) long. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 17:05, 09 November 2006 (CDT)

==A New Piece of Information About Galactica==
It seems like everyones talking about what Galactica's TV may or may not be, but to me the more interesting piece of information we can learn from the battle is that apparently, Galactica isn't designed to land on a planet's surface. Firstly, it lacks any sort of vertical thrusters, secondly, its surface seemed to not respond well to the head of re-entry, thirdly, Galactica has no apparent landing struts or similar devices. Also, we learn that many of the ships in the colonial fleet CAN land. Well actually we learned this earlier in LDYB, but now we also learn that they can take off. From all of this we can infer that Galactica was built, or at least assembled entirely in space, where it is born, lives, fights, and dies. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 15:14, 3 November 2006 (EST)

:Hi, Antagonist. It's not entirely new information; Gaeta alludes to this when Adama suggests going to Kobol himself, thinking that Adama meant taking the battlestar intraatmosphere ([[Home, Part II]]). I can't think of where any stats of the ship ever said it was a true spaceship, however, these also are not new; the remnants of the Fleet orbiting [[New Caprica]] in [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]] also apparently lacked landing ability. Yes, it's most likely that all battlestars are forever spaceborne. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:44, 3 November 2006 (EST)

==Galactica Battle Scars==
Is it just me but I have seen that the hull of Galactica looks almost black from the battle. There was a shot of the ship passing by that had a great view of the damage. --[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 11:14, 8 November 2006 (EDT)

==Material Losses==
When the screen cuts from Lee leaving the CIC, it shows Pegasus going up to colide with the one Basestar, but in the background is the 3rd Basestar and I noticed it had two noticeable "flaming" spots on one of each of its topside and bottomside "points" and as far as we know, it was the only surviving Basestar of the four. This might classify moderate damage to a Basestar, but (just to clarify) is this worth putting in the Battle Data (Moderate damage to 1 Basestar)? [[User:Commander Mazien|Commander Mazien]] 06:18, 2 December 2006 (CST)
: I do not see any evidence 3 basestars were lost, only two during Pegasus' final run. a 3rd received moderate damaged (pegasus passed it during the final run) and the 4th (pegasus' opening volley) appears to have been routed from the battlefield by pegasus' destruction, but it appears on dradis screens at points after the opening volley, so I would say, not destroyed. As what we saw was not consistent with the destruction or crippling of basestars we've seen in resurrection ship, captain's hand, and torn. I'm inclined to say material losses was 2 basestars lost, 1 crippled and routed, 1 moderately damaged. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 11:15, 15 February 2007 (CST)

where does your third basestar go? we see Pegasus hit one with its forward batteries but it isnt a confirmed kill as it definetly appears on DRADIS in the next scene only 2 Basestars are confirmed kills in this fight Too many people seem to assume the ship that takes the initial volley dies or suffers extensive damage yet we see Battlestars shrug off this kind of damage all the time with minimum effect. for example Pegasus is under bombardment from at a minimum 3 basestars and in all likelyhood 4 along with whatever the raiders can do for at least aslong as it takes for CMDR Adama to get between CIC and the escape Raptors {{unsigned|Furrygophe}}

==Media Wiki Error?==

Okay, i just uploaded a new version of the photo that was being used before, but now, for some reason, 'BONC.jpg' no longer exists, although its DEFINITELY there on the media wiki. Grrr - i much prefer the old days before there were two separate sites. Can someone fix this? --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 06:18, 28 January 2007 (CST)

:Never mind! All fixed :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 06:20, 28 January 2007 (CST)

Talk:The Woman King/Archive 1

2007-02-14T20:20:08Z

Azselendor:

==Programming Note==
As many in the United States know, the [http://www.superbowl.com/ Super Bowl] American Football championship game is February 4. For most in our country, that game is a holiday-like event with as much national pride and rivalries as the international World Cup championship games. Since any TV programming that plays alongside the Super Bowl won't get many viewers, it appears that the SciFi Channel chose to pre-empt ''Battlestar'' to the following week. Just to let you know before you search for a torrent of the next episode.

I, for one, will certainly be watching, as I'm a resident of Indinaapolis, home of the Colts and one of the teams in the game. :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:48, 30 January 2007 (CST)

: Da Bears will win. End of line. [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 07:16, 31 January 2007 (CST)
::Get the to see the Super bowl over the pond too :D --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 07:45, 31 January 2007 (CST)
:: DAAAAAAAAAAA BEARS. I'll miss my weekly Galactica fix, however :( --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:53, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Yeah, RIGHT. How'd that game work out for ya, BB? :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:30, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::I had no particular feelings either way, except that my dad did a couple of Saturday Night Live skits about the Bears and my grandpa's a Bears fan. I heartily congratulate Indianapolis on their win :D --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:12, 6 February 2007 (CST)

== Wild and Crazy speculation!!!!!!!! ==
OK, OK, OK, OK! I know somebody is going to blow my last addition out of the water about the GateWorld crap but I just create a link to a page that has revealed some now confirmed data even though there is other unconfirmed data in the article. I wanted to create the opportunity for the reader to make an assessment for him/herself. I know, I know, I know the policies on this stuff, but I'm testing the waters.... --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 15:04, 23 September 2006 (AST)

== Title ==

"Woman King" is the title of a song and E.P. album by Iron & Wine. Maybe someone on the writing staff is a fan? --[[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 06:37, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
: Sounds to me like a play on The Pirate King. All these silly Hollywood types love Gilbert and Sullivan. I have no idea what the relevance would be, though. --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 00:58, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Concurrent with "Taking a Break?" ==

Is there any information or thought as to whether this episode takes place at the same time as the previous episode, "[[Taking a Break from All Your Worries]]?" It would make some sense, as this episode is rumored to involve Hera under the care of Dr. Robert, and Athena was in a rush to get a sick Hera to a doctor at the end of "[[Rapture]]." It would also explain where Helo and Sharon are during "Taking a Break," since they weren't featured there at all, with the seemingly urgent Hera storyline oddly dropped.

Of course, the idea of "[[Black Market]]" and "[[Scar]]" being concurrent came up as the second season aired, but that was disproved. This might just be a random idea. I guess we'll find out for sure in two weeks. --[[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 20:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)
:It might also explain why [[Robert|Doctor Robert]] is treating Hera instead of Cottle as he is busy with the interrogation drugs on Baltar. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 11:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)
::Keep in mind though, that Cottle is not on Sharon's "A" list right about now either. Probably, since he played quite a big roll in faking Hera's death and hiding the baby away...Maybe Helo and Sharon wanted to seek...a second opinion. Unfortunatly, if that's the case looks like he won't be a good choice!--[[User:Gallion|Gallion]] 09:54, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:::Another issue with my theory is the Zarek scene we've seen in the promos. If it happens early in the episode, the two eps can't be concurrent because the decision to have the trial came at the end of "Taking a Break." However, if it's late in the ep, the two eps might happen at the same time. Only about 30 minutes until we find out. [[User:Linaf|Linaf]] 20:38, 11 February 2007 (CST)

== My Predictions ==

I've looked deep into my crystal ball this week, ''Galactica'' fans, and what I've seen will blow your minds and require a change of pants. I'll give you all a moment or two to go grab a spare pair of trousers. Got 'em? Okay, here we go:
*Helo beats the sweet bejeezus out of a frail old man who's just trying to help people through euthanasia.
*Athena, being a murderous Cylon deep inside, gets turned on by the violence. She and Helo conceive their second child.
*The trial of Gaius Baltar begins with thunderous applause.
*Tom Zarek!
*We see the first shots of the Cylon homeworld and learn how the Cylons are dealing with the loss of the Number Three model. Some models aren't taking it so well.
*We also learn why the Cylon fleets are spread so thin: Attacks from a mysterious external enemy have drawn the majority of the Cylons' attention for the last year and a half.
*Starbuck and Hot Dog take the Heavy Raider back to the Colonies to gather supplies. The Heavy Raider is able to make the trip in three jumps each way. When there, they're attacked by Cylon models they've never seen before and are brought to meet their leader: Galvatron!
*Dude. ''Tom'' motherfrakking ''ZAREK''.
*More guest appearances by the SuicideGirls. Quinne Suicide even has a line.
*Tigh whines about stuff and gets promoted. Gaeta whines about stuff and gets thrown in the brig. Apollo whines about stuff and gets promoted ''and'' thrown in the brig.
*Special guest appearances by Dr. Jack Kevorkian and Harlan Ellison.
*Did I mention Tom Zarek?
Should be a hum-dinger of a night. As always, you can place your bets with Bruzer or on my User Talk page. I'll see you all on Monday. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:Yup, bets can be placed on my talk page. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 13:48, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::Suicide girls? They're unboxing the [[Number Three|Threes]] already? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 19:20, 7 February 2007 (CST)
:::LIke the predictions, especially on Tigh, Gaeta and Apollo. But what about Dee, Cottle, Caprica and Anders?--[[User: CoreyDanian|CoreyDanian]] 19.23, 8 February 2007
::::I hate to step on Slander's territory, but here's what I say -
::::*Caprica seduces Roslin and gets her to release Baltar because Caprica's become addicted to 3-ways.
::::*Dee and Cottle are having a secret love affair that Cottle is hiding from his other partner, Anders.
:::::--[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 21:31, 7 February 2007 (CST)
::::::Cottle/Anders OTP. Looks like we got our crystal balls from the same wish-granting Gypsy, BB, because mine told me the exact same things. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 11:45, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::OTP? And also, you got your crystal ball from [[Dodona Selloi]] too? Cool! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:50, 8 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::As defined by Wikipedia, "One True Pairing -- usually used to denote a fanatical devotion to one pairing in a fandom, excluding all others; a fandom abbreviation referring to one's favorite fictional couple." It's a term from the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_(fandom) shipping] community, which I use here for parodic effect, as I loathe fanfiction and everything having to do with it. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 12:41, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::Ah, so BSG has an official OTP and unofficial. Official, of course, being Six and Three. Unofficial, Anders and Cottle. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 20:21, 8 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::: OTPs don't have to be same-sex. Someone could designate Starbuck/Anders as their OTP. There's also no such thing as an official OTP, since it's purely a fandom thing. Rule 34, however, states that there ''has'' to be Cottle/Anders slashfic out there. I don't want to see it, but it's out there. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 08:43, 9 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::I know the OTPs don't have to be same-sex, but I like thinking about a Three/Six OTP :D --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:00, 9 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::::::: I think that makes a whole wiki full of us. Mmm... (We need more women here, to keep us in line.) --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:07, 13 February 2007 (CST)

== podcast already up ==
The podcast is already up. Isn't that silly?
http://media.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/314/bsg_ep314_FULL.mp3 [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 13:40, 8 February 2007 (CST)

== What episode is that from? ==
In the "Previously on Battlestar Galactica" segment, Helo was transferred to take care of the civvies who come on Galactica. What episode is that from? [[User:Moo|Moo]] 21:46, 11 February 2007 (CST)
:Just another "Previously Retcon." They do those from time to time, like in "Resurrection Ship, Part 1," where they "Previously-ed" a scene cut from "Pegasus." It's a way of setting up the story quick and easy, without the clunkery of exposition in the teaser. This one was pretty obvious, as the sound quality of Chief saying it was very tinny.

That it's a recap retcon is obvious. I think Moo is simply asking what episode the footage was cut from. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 00:34, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:I'd assume EoJ or Passage. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 06:02, 12 February 2007 (CST)

I propose that we refer to these incidents as "prevcons." --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:15, 12 February 2007 (CST)

== Ep. Summary word choice - racism/prejudice ==

Can I propose to use the words prejudice and discrimination to describe the persecution of the Sagittarons in the episode summary? Using the word "racism" just doesn't seem accurate. I just don't think of topics like religious belief or planet-of-origin as race-related. Zarek, Dualla, and Mrs. King all seem to be of varying ethnic backgrounds, but are still all Sagittarons. I hesitate to edit anything on this wiki, and I just want to see if people think this word choice is worth considering. I may just be anal.
[[User:Murph|Murph]] 10:46, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:Right. It might be an allegory for racism, but within the show it's definitely not racism. Your hesitation isn't necessary btw. If you feel that something needs to be changed, go ahead and do it. It's not like this is a huge thing that will change an entire article --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:54, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::I am a little hesitant to make changes because I'm a new user and, until now, I've only corrected typos. Someone else did more work than me when they wrote up that summary, so I didn't want to start editing too freely. Just a little cautious on my side, I suppose. Take my love, take my land...saw Objects in Space on the old DVR (in HD) this week. Possibly my favorite episode of Firefly. But that's a discussion for another board. --[[User:Murph|Murph]] 11:44, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::If you want to make a change this small, and you think it's the right thing to do, just do it. We keep a history of all edits, so if we decided you have totally screwed up a page, we can always undo your changes. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 13:48, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:"Racist" is the right word. Helo uses it himself: "This guy's dirty. I think he's a liar, and I think he's killing people because he's a racist son of a bitch." --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:25, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::A character said it; that doesn't make it the right choice of words. Like real people, the characters on the show sometimes say one word when their intent was to say another. More of that sweet, sweet realism we love from ''Galactica''. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 14:47, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::For all we know, Sagittarons might be a "race" of humans. Racial boundaries on ''Galactica'' aren't as clear cut as perhaps they should be... -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 14:54, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::I completely agree with Joe. If coming from a different county/continent is how we define a "race" then I would certainly think coming from a different planet/colony is. We're all humans, no matter what your ethnic origin or skin color is. Same goes on Galactica. They're all humans, but there are 13 different colonies...and given the distinction that's been shown on the show before, it's analogous to different countries.--[[User:RUSnooky|RUSnooky]] 16:05, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::::Based on the work we've done at [[Race and Ethnicity in the Twelve Colonies]], it's quite obvious that nobody in the fictional ''Galactica'' universe is remotely interested in skin color as a means of classifying groups of people. The means by which the Colonials place themselves into representative groups is overwhelmingly based on colony of origin. This has been pointed out many times throughout the series: Sagittarons (Bastille Day, The Woman King) and Gemenons (The Captain's Hand) are obvious; Adama dismisses the Taurons as "always acting up" (Hero), and Caprica seems to be in a continual position of prestige. The Quorum of Twelve, the highest legislative body in the colonial government, is also organized based on tribal affiliation. With all this in mind - the irrelevance of skin color and the overriding importance of colony of origin - it makes perfect sense that issues of race should be transferred over to issues of nationality, and the corresponding vocabulary with them. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:25, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Unfortunately the cultural and national equivalents of racism don't have concise two-syllable English terms. I've heard bias against various cultural, religious and linguistic groups referred to as "racism" on many occasions. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 18:31, 12 February 2007 (CST)

My say is that I prefer the use of "racism" as opposed to "prejudice" because it seems to keep in line of the broader attitudes that are shown throughout the series. The dictionary definitions of racism and prejudice are as follows:

*Racism - a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others

*Prejudice - unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group

From a small scale, yes Dr. Robert was acting on his prejudice opinions towards the Sagittarons, but those opinions are coming from a racist POV. We've seen hints of this POV from others during the series, esp. with background info on how the 11 other colonies treated Saggittaron as their scapegoat, plundering the planet's resources for their own desires.

The reality is, esp. those of us who grew up in a USA culture, racism is always associated with skin color. Once you throw in the idea that racism covers other things such as religion, then everyone gets all uncomfortable because it seems less tangible. What we actually are seeing in the show is not so much of racism, but specifically, tribism, where one particular tribe is singled out by the others as being inferior.

So in my opinion, Robert is a racist(or tribist). His opinions and views on them because of New Caprica definitely are apart of him, but his actions demonstrate that he treated all the Sagittarons as an inferior tribe, even the ones who begged for his help and broke the norm. Why would he remain prejudice towards Mrs. King and Willie if he was just prejudice and not also racist? --[[User:LifeStar|LifeStar]] 09:46, 13 February 2007 (CST)
:The use of the term "racism" is most appropriate, with LifeStar's corrollary. I'm more for the use of episode dialogue to define terms, but, as with the [[Talk:Humanoid Cylon|Cylon agent/humanoid Cylon]] decision, what the wiki does to define matters may not necessarily be consistent with dialogue. For the purposes of being an encyclopedia, this shouldn't be, but I know that sometimes consensus overrides this principle. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:14, 13 February 2007 (CST)
::It is racism, as Helo said, because to a Colonial "race" refers to which of the twelve tribes someone is from, not to skin color. "Black" and "white" people aren't different races in biological fact, either. "Race" is a concept with no value other than what culture defines it to mean. A Caprican and a Sagittaron think of themselves as different ethnicities. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:05, 14 February 2007 (CST)

== Camp Oil Slick = Dogsville? ==

Is Dogsville a part of Camp Oil Slick, or has Camp Oil Slick been renamed "Dogsville", or is it a nickname? Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 15:31, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:Camp Oil Slick probably ceased to exist once the New Caprican refugees were relocated to other ships. Dogsville is in the same location, but seems to be comprised of people who got shuffled to ''Galactica'' after the loss of several ships during [[The Passage]]. Remember, we see the starboard hangar bay empty during that episode. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 22:32, 12 February 2007 (CST)
::I haven't seen "The Passage", but that does seem to make the most sense. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 22:56, 12 February 2007 (CST)
:::It's easily one of the best episodes of the season, in my opinion. I like that, though the fleet's population has dropped by several thousand, they're having to deal with overcrowding issues. I'm not sure exactly how many ships were left behind on New Caprica or lost afterwards, but it seems like the loss of even one ship is a huge blow to the fleet's people-carrying capacity. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 09:36, 13 February 2007 (CST)

== Roslin and the Internal Baltar ==

I was happy to see Roslin notice the dialogue Caprica Six was having with her internal Baltar. It makes sense in Caprice Six's case (since she's a machine and all) that Roslin wouldn't immediately chalk it up to idiosyncracy as she's apparently done with Baltar to this point. Maybe she'll finally see Baltar's jabbering for what it is too.
: Update! Podcast confirms it might have been in a script and isn't intersting enough to pursue. So, um, nevermind.--[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 00:50, 13 February 2007 (CST)

== Cylon sighting? ==

I can't be sure about this, but does anyone think that one of the coughing Saggitarians looks a lot like the Priest Cylon? (Father whatshisname)
You can see him on screen from about 5min 56 seconds through to 5 min 59 seconds. Could anyone with a high-def copy and some eagle eyes take a look and offer an opinion?
:It certainly looked like him, but the Colonials know about Cavil now so I expect they would have picked him up as the refugees boarded. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 06:04, 13 February 2007 (CST)

== Information from the podast ==
I'm loving the "Information from the podast" subsection of the notes. Is it something that deserves to be broken out into a subheader, or put under the "Official Statements" (which usually goes empty)? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 10:19, 13 February 2007 (CST)
:I thought about that earlier. Official statements is a possibility.
:Though we shouldn't add all tiny details gleaned from it. Just the really important/big things. For now it's alright, but like some of the Questions it might become too much at some point. We'll see. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:44, 13 February 2007 (CST)

== Zarek & the Saggitarians ==

I noted this under questions, but Zarek didn't seem to play any role in this episode except freaking out about Baltar and the Trial. I'm surprised he didn't show up to harass Helo, Adama, and Roberts.

The Woman King

2007-02-14T20:14:26Z

Azselendor: /* Questions */ About Zarek

{{Episode Data
| title= The Woman King
| image=TWK-1.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 14
| guests= [[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
| writer= [[Michael Angeli]]
| story=
| director= [[Michael Rymer]]
| production= 314
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-02-11
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population= 41,401
| prev= [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]
| next= [[A Day in the Life]]
| itunes=http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/stat?id=VWbyALbmqZY&offerid=78941&type=3&subid=0&tmpid=1826&RD_PARM1=http%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZStore.woa%252Fwa%252FviewTVSeason%253Fi%253D215053343%2526id%253D200852806%2526s%253D143441%2526partnerId%253D30
}}

== Overview ==
:''[[Helo]] investigates the claims of Sagittarons that a doctor is discriminating against them by providing substandard medical care.

== Summary ==
===Teaser===
*Helo, in his quarters with his sleeping [[Sharon Agathon|wife]] and [[Hera Agathon|daughter]], is fitful and cannot sleep. He tries to get some work done but falls asleep later in the morning.
*The population of [[Camp Oil Slick|Dogsville]] on ''[[Galactica]]'' is increasing by 300. Helo is tasked to managing the needs of the populace camped there while other pilots continue their usual flight duties.
*Many civilians call to Helo, asking him to keep them physically separated from the Sagittarons.
*Dualla is also on the floor, trying to defuse a problem with Mrs. [[King]] and her son, [[Willie King]], as a civilian physician, [[Michael Robert]], tries to examine anyone he can see.
*Dr. Robert sees a frightening pattern of people coughing and tells [[Saul Tigh]], an old friend of his who just arrived on the floor, to leave the area.
*Helo sees the pattern of sickness as well when King's son collapses to the floor.

===Act 1===
*[[William Adama|Admiral Adama]] meets with Helo, Dr. Robert, Colonel Tigh and Dr. [[Cottle]] to discuss the sickness.
*The cause, [[Mellorak infection]], is transmitted by touch only and is curable with a drug, [[bittamucin]]. While a dangerous disease that is fatal in its advanced stages after 48 hours, the disease is curable if caught early.
*The complication involves the Sagittarons, who believe that physicians and medications from them are an abomination to the [[Religion in the Twelve Colonies#The Lords of Kobol|Gods]] and will not likely accept any medication. They have practiced their shunning of conventional medical care for over 1,000 years.
*The stocks are low in any case, and Adama orders immediate inoculations of key crew and medication used only when someone shows definitive signs of the disease.
*Helo watches as some of Sagittarons use a curative root extract in an attempt to stave off the illness.
*On ''[[Colonial One]]'', President [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]] explains how [[Gaius Baltar]]'s trial will go with her vice president, [[Tom Zarek]].
*Zarek warns, visibly agitated, that a trial like this would be a "hurricane" that would cause pandemonium in the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]]. Roslin is left visibly worried as she realizes that Zarek was genuinely frightened of the possibility of trial.
*Helo continues to take complaints, many from other Colonials who want to be moved away from the Sagittarons. King arrives to not only tell Helo of her son's death, but that she made a mistake in trusting Dr. Robert. Helo believes that she waited too long, but she notes that her son was only sick for 12 hours, well within the 48 hour cure window, making Helo suspicious.

===Act 2===
*Dr. Robert tells of other deaths as Helo questions him about the King son's death. Robert deflects comments while giving Helo his inoculation, and notes commenting favorably to him to Col. Tigh.
*[[Margaret Edmondson]], [[Galen Tyrol]], [[Felix Gaeta]], [[Lee Adama]], [[Anastasia Dualla]], [[Kara Thrace]] and many others are at [[Joe's bar]] taking a break. Some are playing the [[Pyramid (RDM)|Pyramid]] arcade game. When [[Connor]] calls Edmondson by the name of "Marge," the [[Raptor]] pilot tells him that her shot accuracy is improved when she imagines the pyramid target as his face when throwing.
*Tyrol becomes drunk and begins to tell how the Sagittarons did not help fight on [[New Caprica]]. He personally believes that those colonists do not deserve any of the medication. Major Adama orders him to stop commenting once it becomes clear that Dualla, a Sagittaron herself, was becoming uncomfortable.
*Dualla agrees with some of Tyrol's drunken commentary in regards to her fellow colonists' stubborness, but notes her specific dislike of Dr. [[Cottle]].
*Sharon Agathon is visiting the incarcerated [[Caprica-Six]], discussing Baltar. Six's [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|virtual Baltar]] appears to counter Agathon's thoughts on helping the Colonials.
*Six talks with her virtual Baltar, who tells her that the "trick" of behaving like a human is to think only of yourself.
*As Six kisses the virtual Baltar, President Roslin and [[Tory Foster]] are listening and watching Six nearby by hidden surveillance, and question who or what she is speaking to.
*A riot occurs in the camp, and Helo and the marines scramble to save Dr. Robert, who is at the center of the attack. Many Sagittarons accuse him of murder.
*Robert admits to administering the rationed drug without patient consent, particularly to one of the Sagittaron's noted fundamental members. The doctor becomes irritated at Helo's probing questions.
*Helo reports to Admiral Adama of Robert's behavior, with Cottle present. Neither man believes Helo's report is credible, and Adama dismisses him, telling him that he has more pressing matters than dealing with what he believes are unfounded accusations.
*Tigh catches up with Helo and tells him that accusing Robert is doing little to help Helo's overall credibility with the Fleet command. When Tigh insults Helo's wife, the captain punches him.
*Tigh takes the blow without arresting Helo, but warns that further accusations will further diminish his reputation in the Fleet.

===Act 3===
*Sharon Agathon tells her husband that their daughter is sick, having been pulled off [[CAP]] to help her child.
*Despite Helo's worries about Robert, Hera is given the drug and sedatives.
*Helo returns a bracelet from Willie King's body to Mrs. King. Before she leaves, he asks why she let her son be treated if she was previously warned. She explained that she did so because she didn't believe that anyone could have so much hatred inside them as to kill a patient. She leaves, refusing to discuss further.
*In their quarters, the Agathons argue, Helo questions whether he is getting damning treatment for being the husband of a [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]], and his other actions.
*Helo visits [[sickbay]], but finds it empty. He searches the medical records of patients from New Caprica and finds a shocking correlation.
*Cottle enters and tries to order Helo out of the office, threatening arrest. He shows that, unlike other colonists, the mortality rate of Sagittarons is over 90%. When asked to perform an autopsy on Willie King, Cottle tells Helo he's already done so, and Helo leaves, defeated and angry.
*Dualla, with her dislike of Cottle on record, visits Dr. Robert, asking for Bittamucin. She shows the first signs of Mellorak infection.
*On the night phase on the ship, King sneaks away from the refugee camp to Helo's quarters to warn him that Dualla had sought Dr. Robert's help after she began to show symptoms, also noting two other Sagittaron deaths. Helo realizes that, if his instincts are right, Dualla is in serious trouble. Marines appear to escort King away as Help quickly dresses and heads to the camp, against his wife's warnings and anger about having to fight for respect every day aboard ''Galactica''.
*Out of uniform and yelling for people to move out of the way, Helo storms through the encampment, frantically searching for and finding Dualla, lying a cot, motionless and unconscious, and desperately checks her vital signs.

===Act 4===
*Helo couldn't find immediate life signs and fears he's too late until Dualla stirs. She is alive, but very lethargic from medication that Robert administered.
*Helo attempts to move her to help from Dr. Cottle when Dr. Robert appears and stops him from leaving, calling for security to assist him. Dualla, in her delirium, shouts not to be treated by Cottle. Marines hear only part of the conversation and order Helo to stand down.
*A security detail separates Dualla from Helo, and sidearms are pulled as Robert orders the marines to arrest Helo.
*Colonel Tigh and Dr. Cottle arrives with additional marines, but instead of taking sides with Robert, Tigh berates Robert.
*Cottle explains to Helo that he didn't actually perform the toxicology test on King's son before finding Helo in his office. The autopsy revealed high levels of a toxic bisphosphnate, but no traces of the drug used to treat the disease. Cottle notes similar results in several other patients.
*Robert explains that his actions were a form of mercy-killing to save precious resources. Cottle questions his "do no harm" oath as Robert reminds Tigh of a time where they spoke in a derogative manner about Sagittarons.
*Tigh orders Helo to arrest Robert.
*Later, Admiral Adama apologizes to Helo for his actions in trying to show Robert's actions as well as other morally questionable issues in recent days. Helo returns Adama's apology with a perfect salute, finally feeling vindicated and respected.
*Agathon returns to his family, his daughter in her arms, and gives his wife a kiss.

===Bonus Scene===

*A bonus scene shows Helo in Adama's office, apparently at the time of Adama's apology. In this cut scene, Helo confesses to the sabotage of [[A Measure of Salvation|an aborted Cylon offensive]] to destroy the Cylons through biological weaponry. Adama asks Helo if he thinks this was the right time to bring this matter to his attention.
*This scene meshes with Adama's comment about the lack of a "voice in the wilderness" when Helo has questioned Fleet decisions on the Cylon genocide issue, the Sagittarons, and his unborn daughter's own fate [[Epiphanies|''in utero'' months before]].

== Questions ==

* What is the current status of the Fleet's medical supplies? Was the stockpile of vaccines and medicines that ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' had before its destruction ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]) transferred over to the civilian ships before the [[Battle of New Caprica]]?

* Does Roslin suspect Caprica-Six of communicating with the [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylons]] due to her hallucinations of Baltar?

* How many other civilian medical doctors are there in the Fleet?

* Why did [[Hera]] need the medication for a curable disease, while her blood was used to cure breast cancer for President Roslin?

* When did the hatred and bitterness towards the [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Sagittaron|Sagittarons]] begin in Colonial history?

* How different are the Sagittarons and [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Gemenon|Gemenese]] in regard to their religious beliefs? What traditions and ceremonies do the Sagittarons still practice that the rest of the Colonies have abandoned?

* Who submitted Hera to Dr. Robert's care? [[Sharon Agathon|Athena]] was away at CAP and Helo wasn't informed of Hera's well-being.

* What is the condition of Starbuck's and Anders's marriage? Why is he not seen with Starbuck in Joe's bar? Is he still living away from Galactica?

* Where is Tom Zarek in this matter, is he unaware of the plight of the Sagittarons on Galactica or under Doctor Robert's Care?

== Analysis ==
* This is the first major episode that features Saggitarons in a more in-depth manner. We learn more about Tom Zarek and Anastasia Dualla's relation to their colony of origin, originally established in "[[Bastille Day]]".

* The Sagittarons' belief system appears to be modeled on various modern day religious sects that oppose the use of medical technology and/or are pacifist in their political views. Religious sects, such as the Jehovah Witnesses and Christian Scientists in the past have taken such views and had been highly criticized and persecuted.

* Mrs. King name might be derived from Martin Luther King Jr. as Mrs. King is portrayed as an individual who wants justice for the prejudice that she and her son received. It is her initial step of approaching Helo that causes the murders of her people to eventually cease.

* Similar to Baltar's internal-Six, Caprica-Six's internal Baltar appears at a moment of self-doubt and fear. Interestingly, this version of internal-Baltar seems opposed to Caprica-Six siding with the humans, while back in "[[Downloaded]]", he told her that he loved her so deeply once she made the decision to reach out to humanity.

* The Saggitarons appear to be the last human colony that still maintains most of its original roots from the founding of the colonies. According to Dr. Cottle and Colonel Tigh, medical treatment has been rejected by the Saggitarons for over 3000 years, the subject of which they had referred to as a curse. The result being that they still practice rituals and beliefs that are at least over 1000 years old. This may be the date when the other colonies began to let go of their old religious convictions and origins.

* Though shown briefly, when the pilots (Apollo, Starbuck, and [[Racetrack]]) are walking past Helo in the corridor, it should be noted that Racetrack momentarily flirts with Helo when she holds onto his arm with Athena present. This hails back to an [http://podcasts.lvrocks.com/details.aspx?castid=5 interview] with Leah Cairns who stated that she and Tahmoh Penikett play their scenes together as though there is a sexual attraction between the two characters, while Athena remains unaware.

* Adama displays one of his character traits when he apologizes to Helo for not believing him about Dr. Robert. This is reminiscent of the moment when Adama offered Roslin his forgiveness when she took a part of the Fleet in search of the Arrow of Apollo ([[Home, Part II]]). Instead of forgiveness, Adama offers Helo his apology and states, as he did with Roslin, that it doesn't matter whether Helo asked or needs it, Helo still has it.

* In the real world, Robert's poisons, known as bisphosphantes, are a family of drugs used to treat certain bone cancers and [[w:osteoporesis|osteoporesis]] in some women. The use of the drug by real world definition correlates with Cottle's notation of acute cellular disruption, which could happen with such drugs.

* This is the first time since "[[Collaborators]]" that Gaeta is seen in a relaxed setting. The episode indicates that he has finally been welcomed back amongst the crew and able to join them in their Pyramid game. In addition, it appears that his [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries|actions towards Baltar]] did not lead to any serious repercussions.

== Notes ==
* The title doesn't literally refer to a king, but to a female character named [[King]], and is referred to in this episode's dialogue; Colonel Tigh asks who is lodging all the complaints against Dr. Robert, Helo replies "the woman, [[King]]".

* [[Bruce Davison]]'s character [[Michael Robert|Dr. Robert]] may be a reference to a song by [[w:The Beatles|The Beatles]] entitled "[[w:Dr. Robert|Dr. Robert]]". The song is about a doctor who prescribes illicit drugs. The [[A Day in the Life|next episode]] also contains a Beatles reference in its title.

*Dualla is noted as a Sagittaron. This was previously established in "[[33]]" and "[[Bastille Day]]".

*Tom Zarek was granted the Vice Presidency, despite his actions in "[[Collaborators]]".

*[[Racetrack]]'s given name, established in "[[Final Cut]]", is used in dialogue for the first time. [[Charlie Connor|Connor]] calls her "Marge", which seems to irritate her.

*Information from the podast:
** The Sagittaron-focused storyline, was originally intended to play a larger role in the upcoming Baltar trial. However, in post-production, it was decided that the trial needed to go into an entirely different direction, thus cutting out most of the Sagittaron build up in other episodes.
** Tom Zarek's fear that is noted by Roslin was originally based on Zarek's fear that like Gaeta, Baltar would attempt to implicate him in an incident with the Sagittarons on New Caprica. There is a deleted scene in which Zarek talks with Baltar and tries to figure out what Baltar plans to say about the event.
** RDM acknowledged that the explicit racism expressed by Tigh and Tyrol appeared very forced as it was never alluded to before. It was necessary at the time because of the original role that the Sagittarons were suppose to factor into Baltar's trial. However, once the decision was made to not focus on an event that the audience has not seen firsthand, the scenes now stand alone.
** The broader theme of the episode was suppose to portray Helo as a man who desired to prove his worth again to the leadership. The guilt and struggle he felt of [[A Measure of Salvation|sabotaging the biological weapon]] is the main factor that causes him to appear as the boy who cries "wolf" to Adama and Tigh. The deleted scene from the episode ran along those lines and explicitly displays Helo's guilt for having disobeyed his orders.
** The re-introduction of Caprica-Six' internal Baltar was an explicit order from RDM to the writing staff after initial reluctance. This accomplished at least two purposes. First, it established that Caprica-Six was never freed from these visions of her internal Baltar, and that she still has to deal with her visions. Secondly, in the grander theme of the show, the internal Baltar and Six will play major roles in the unfolding of the series.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

* ''[[Tom Zarek]] offers his view on the results of [[Gaius Baltar]]'s forthcoming trial:''

: '''Zarek:''' Listen to me, Baltar will get his trial, and this is what you'll get: a hurricane. The media will descend upon you and watch, and scrutinze, and question your every move. You will have sectarian violence, you will have assassination attempts, you will have civil unrest on a scale we've never seen. Work, labor, everyday routine in this fleet will come to a complete halt. This trial is going to bring down this entire fleet down.
: '''[[Tory Foster]]:''' Mr. Vice President, we have a security plan in order, which includes rapid [[Colonial Marine|marine]] deployment, increased [[CAP]] operations, security details–
: '''Zarek:''' (ignoring Foster) A hurricane, [[Laura Roslin|Laura]]. If I were you, I'd declare martial law during the trial. You're going to need a lot more than a little patience to survive. I'm here if you need me.

* ''[[Six]]'s internal Baltar gives her some advice:''
: '''Internal Baltar:''' But there's a trick to being human, you have to think only about yourself.

== Official Statements ==

== Guest Stars ==

*[[Michael Hogan]] as Colonel [[Saul Tigh]]
*[[Aaron Douglas]] as Chief [[Galen Tyrol]]
*[[Alessandro Juliani]] as Lieutenant [[Felix Gaeta]]
*[[Tahmoh Penikett]] as Captain [[Karl Agathon]]
*[[Nicki Clyne]] as Deckhand [[Cally Henderson Tyrol]]
*[[Kandyse McClure]] as [[Anastasia Dualla]]
*[[Donnelly Rhodes]] as Doctor [[Cottle]]
*[[Rekha Sharma]] as [[Tory Foster]]
*[[Bruce Davison]] as [[Michael Robert|Dr. Michael Robert]]
*[[Leah Cairns]] as Lieutenant [[Margaret Edmondson|Margaret "Racetrack" Edmondson]]
*[[Ryan Robbins]] as [[Charlie Connor]]
*[[Gabrielle Rose]] as [[King|Mrs. King]]

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:A to Z|Woman King, The]]
[[Category:Episode Guide|Woman King, The]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)|Woman King, The]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Michael Angeli]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Humanoid Cylon speculation/Archive4

2007-02-07T05:28:52Z

Azselendor: /* Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 */

:''For discussions prior to October 13, 2006, [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cylon_agent_speculation&oldid=83992 see this revision.]

==Major Concision==
I've heavily edited this lengthy article to the clearest points, removing excessive or redundant explanations already available in episode or character synopsis, leaving the most damning or affirms points of argument. I've removed the [[Tory Foster]] suspicion as it gives no justifiable weight-bearing indication of suspicion over other occasionally-seen characters. There were plenty of people who formed the new Quorum of Twelve who are as intimately familiar with the rules of its organization and law as Foster's knowledge suggests, and none of them are any more or less suspicious than Foster in that vein of logic.

As Billy Keikeya is dead, no further points need be made for him unless he returns to life, which would be a dead giveaway, thus his major concision.

I added the note from actors on critical season 3 info on Cylon agents in a spoiler, however, this needs a citation for it to remain.

Points of reference were also added to aid in supporting data while leaving the article clearer to read. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:36, 13 October 2006 (CDT)

==Interesting Info==
Read the [http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/30381 interview] below the Exodus I spoilers with Aaron Douglas and Tamoh Penikett at DragonCon. Very important spoilers about this article.
{| cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class="spoiltext_border"
! {{spoilerplate}}
|-
| id="spoil-text" class="spoiltext_box" | We have seen all the Cylon Models we are going to. The rest have been boxed. If one is ever reactivated, it will be a new character
|}

My take on the interview. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:23, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

:That kinda contradicts statements by Dean Stockwell and Grace Park who said that the other Cylon models are so secretive that the Significant Seven don't even think about them.
:Moreover there is a qualifier. Aaron Douglas says "they've been boxed. '''I think''' that they've been boxed." --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 09:46, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
:: That was my interpretation. I could be wrong. Although, the cylon actors would probably have more "credibility" about the topic. Does seem contradictory. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 09:58, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
::: Plus, when Sharon said there were eight cylons left in the fleet (at the time we knew of only four) which would indicate ALL of the remaining cylon agents were in the fleet somewhere.
:Dammit! I was at DragonCon and missed their panels. I ''did'' meet them and get their autograph, but my photo with them blew up. The spoiler suggests more problems than the characters let on. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:48, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
Aaron Douglas was speculating, as he states. He was rationalizing why we haven't seen the other five among large groups of Cylons. The Significant Seven/Final Five arrangement is mentioned in the Cylon Bible document, which Douglas has no reason to read for his role. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:19, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
:Douglas's rationalizing doesn't really make much sense though. Why don't we see a bunch of Leobens or Simons in the large group scenes? We saw several Leobens in the miniseries, why haven't we seen them since? Why haven't either of them participated in the Cylon "council" meetings with Baltar (not sure what to call them)? (That is until they recently snuck a Simon in there.) I'm not suggesting that there aren't explanations for this, I'm just saying that the assumption that all the other models have been boxed because we don't see them in the group scenes is kind of silly when we know of two models that don't appears in those scenes. Also, his description of boxing is certainly not what I assumed. I never got the impression that boxing involves boxing up all versions of a model. I think it's just one particular version, like Caprica-Six. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:04, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

== Kacey's Mother ==
Can we start a discussion concerning [[Kacey]]'s "Mother". I found it very suspicious that she would be essentially waiting there on the flight deck when [[Starbuck]] and Kacey got off the shuttle. With 50,000 people in the whole fleet, a chance meeting like that would be very very slim. (Not nearly as the astronomical chances of Baltar being saved from Caprica by Sharon and Helo (a weirdness which can be explained by the fact that Sharon is a Cylon)). The whole Kacey subplot seems a bit of a waste if it really turns out Kacey wasn't Starbuck's kid. If Kacey *is* Starbuck's kid, it makes sense that the Cylons would want Kacey back in to Cylon hands ASAP. -- [[User:GIR|GIR]] 21:38, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Jammer as Cylon speculation ==
I think this is the most rediculous assertation on this page. There is little evidence that he is an Cylon. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. Yet, because he has his own pessimistic point of view and is easily swayed by the Cylon Doral, there are individuals who want to say he's a cylon. Maybe the speculation was warranted in Season 1, but only in Valley of Darkness was there anything to consider and his negative and pessimistic attitude later or lack of knowledge of a term is hardly evidence at all. Additionally, The Resistance paints him more as a confused boy than a Cylon infiltrator. He makes some big mistakes but nothing that would indicate he was a Cylon. He joins the NCP but so did 200 other Colonials. In Occupation, only 33 of the 200 humans die as a result of Duck's suicide bomb so how does the fact that Jammer is among the 167 humans that survived (a majority) indicate that he's a Cylon? What his experience with the occupation has shown is that he is struggling with it psychologically. He had a legitimate gripe with the weapons being in the temple (I'm religious too and don't feel its alright so does that make me a Cylon too?) and Tigh's response scared the heck out of him. Doral offered him a rosier (if false) picture of how things would turn out with a NCP. Jammer was a dupe. That doesn't make him a cylon. The evidence so far on the page has boiled down to "If you aren't working with us, then you must be a cylon." And I think that's an incorrect way of looking at things. The evidence is trace at best so he should be moved out of this High Probability and to Low Probability at the highest. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 17:02, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Remember that this is speculation, so different interpretations will lead to different results. For me, Jammer's (and Dualla's) survival in "Valley" are significant questions that rate them higher. A dupe like Baltar? Probably. Try concising your points down to a few sentences, add them in, and drop his rating. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:27, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
::Here's a concisement of my points:
Points against him

1 - 'Valley of Darkness'; What happened? It's a valid question.

Not Points against him

1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. This doesn't indicate any grand cylon scheme to disrupt humans, this is just some dumb young kick scared for himself cuz his buddy could possibly be a Cylon (which it did...Boomer). He was paranoid for real, and not unjustified. Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.

2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. Again, he's dumb young guy and not too atypical. Have any of you been to high school? I did. I knew dozens of kids like that. And his 2nd comment was true in a fashion. She shouldn't be mad at him, she should be mad at Boomer in that situation. This is not evidence.

3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.

4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. Wouldn't you if the world came to an end and you were always on the verge of death? And like a lot of young guys I've worked with, stuff he does isn't productive. He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.

5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.

6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. Though I understand the circumstances, I agree with him about weapons in the temple. He's right, not wrong. Not a Cylon. We also know Jammer is an emotional guy, so people dying makes him get distressed. Did you notice the pacing back for, the frantic in his voice? Not evidence.

7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.

8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.

That's all the points made on the article page. The only 1 to hold water is the "Valley of Darkness" incident. And a lot of these evidences above are actually evidence that he's not a Cylon. If he's a sleeper agent, then he's a poorly placed sleeper agent.

Points for him

1 - His motivations are pretty clear. He's a simply minded kid so the reasons he says some of the things he does aren't that difficult to find out.

2 - He doesn't leak information to the Cylons when interviewed by Doral and even after he joins the NCP. You would think a Cylon agent would spill the beans, especially since his cover wouldn't have been blown once as part of the NCP.

3 - Ron D. Moore was going to kill him off in Exodus but changed his mind at the last minute. How can he get killed off if he's a Cylon? Don't they just download?

4 - He hasn't done something out of character like Boomer did.

5 - He hasn't sent back info or done sabotage like D'Anne, Doral or Boomer.

6 - There is no big 'ooooo' effect if he were a Cylon as his effect on things is generally minor. I'd think the Cylons would plan there sleeper agents better (more like Boomer)

So that's
1 point for Jammer as a Cylon
8 points that have no bearing and more likely to prove he's not a Cylon
6 points that he's not a Cylon
I say he should be down to Low Probability.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:14, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

:Sounds like you've done your homework. Feel free to adjust the main article, but condense your reasoning to a few paragraphs for brevity and be prepared to cite your reasonings above. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 03:42, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

:You make some decent points Straycat0, but your tone doesn't encourage people to listen to your arguments. Saying that the possibility of Jammer being a Cylon "is the most rediculous assertation on this page" is inflammatory and, frankly, disrespectful, as is saying "... End of Story" as if you are the final arbiter on the matter and no one could possibly disagree with you. That said, here are my responses to some of your points:

:''It's ridiculous to think Jammer might be a Cylon''
::As Spencerian has said, this is speculation and people are going to see things in different ways. I respect your interpretation, but others see it differently. It seems obvious to me that the writers want us to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. That doesn't mean that he is, but no one really knows for sure, not even RDM. Even if RDM has planned for Jammer to be a Cylon all along, he could still change his mind tomorrow. Likewise, even if he had never planned for Jammer to be a Cylon, he could decide tomorrow that he is. However, none of that is really important here as all we have to go on is what has been established. But it is certainly not ridiculous to think that Jammer might be a Cylon. "Valley" alone, IMO, makes him a more likely candidate than just about anyone else and makes it perfectly reasonable to suspect him.

:''Not Points against him''

:''1 - 'Litmus'; Comments about everybody looking out for themselves. ... Paranoia shouldn't be evidence.''

::No one is claiming that it (or any of the other evidence) is proof. It's mostly circumstantial at best, but that's all we have to go on.

:''2 - 'Resistance', Comments about Tyrol being a Cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer not him. ... This is not evidence.''

::Of course it is. You can read these actions many ways. In your analysis it's not support for him being a Cylon. But when you read it as manipulation and instilling distrust and paranoia, it certainly is.

:''3 - 'Flight of the Phoenix' & 'Valley of Darkness; "Sometimes you have to roll the hard six." Boomer knew this term. Jammer didn't. This is a pilot term and Boomer's a pilot and Jammer is not. End of story.''

::I would like to see a citation that defines this as a pilot term. But I never did feel this was a strong argument.

:''4 - 'Blackbird'; Jammer is just a pessimistic guy. ...He was negative about the Blackbird but so was Tigh. This is not evidence.''

::Again, not in your interpretation, but it can certainly be viewed as manipulative.

:''5 - 'The Resistance'; Jammers comments to Duck about NCP being a good thing. We know he was testing Duck. Again, not evidence. Jammer defending Duck when Duck decided not to join the resistance, again a young guy standing up for his buddy, not evidence.''

::I agree, not a good argument.

:''6 - 'The Resistance'; Jammer upset about people dying and weapons in the temple. ... Not evidence.''

::Certainly a viable interpretation, but there are other ways to see it.

:''7 - 'The Resistance'; Doral brought Jammer in for questioning. What's the significance of this if Jammer's a Cylon too. There isn't any.''

::This is a good point, but not beyond explanation.

:''8 - 'Occupation'; Jammer survived because there were 100 other survivors between him and Duck. End of story.''

::Not at all "end of story." First of all, it's not clear that all 200 cadets were at that particular ceremony, so the fact that 167 others survived is not confirmed. There could have been multiple graduation ceremonies. I don't recall seeing 200 people there, but they may not have shown the whole room. In any case, as I recall, Jammer was standing very close to Duck, like one or two rows behind him. There's a couple of shots that show the proximity of the two. I felt like they were being very deliberate in showing that Jammer was standing very close to Duck.

:The writers are obviously going to be very cagey about who may or may not be a Cylon. They want to keep us guessing, so they are going to deliberately try to mislead us. Just when they give us a reason to think someone is a Cylon, they're going to give us another reason to think they're not. So any prospective Cylon is going to have good arguments for and against.

:It's hard to argue that someone isn't a Cylon, because the nature of sleeper agents makes that nearly impossible. There's no reason that a sleeper agent couldn't bomb a cafe full of skin-jobs or nuke a Basestar. All we can do is look at what might indicate that someone is Cylon. Human-like behavior can easily be chalked up to being a sleeper agent.
:--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 16:57, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

::I skimmed through the episode again last night and I think the 200 number only comes from the scene with Roslyn where they are going through the pictures. 200 is the number of humans they estimate are collaborating with the Cylons, not necessarily the number of NCP cadets that will be graduating. In the graduation scene I was only able to count about 32 cadets, but there were probably more as the lines seemed to extend off screen. However, I don't think there were 200, maybe 50 or so. Also, I'm fairly certain that Jammer is standing almost directly behind Duck, not more than 8 feet away. There are two or three shots where they deliberately show someone that looks a lot like Jammer standing just behind Duck to his left. It could be a look-a-like, but I'm pretty sure it's Jammer. It seems highly unlikely he could have survived the blast at such close range.--[[User:Todd|Todd]] 11:36, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:::I'm sorry if I seemed a little heavy handed in my wording of this. I was reacting to some of the assertions that had to be removed off of the Occupation/Precipice pages that said this proves that Jammer is a cylon in the questions section. There seems to be this strong desire among many for Jammer, for whatever reason, to be a cylon. So maybe I had that get-off-your-soapbox reaction to it. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to be so strong.

To the points:

1. 'Litmus', his paranoia; If it's not considered evidence, then why is it on the article page?

2. 'Resistance', judging Tyrol a cylon and Cally should be mad at Boomer; To this point, excluding the "Valley of Darkness" incident, his accusing Tyrol of being a cylon has as much validity as you accusing Jammer of being a cylon. He's paranoid. He's looking for cylons because he knows somebody's got to be one. Why not Tyrol? And as far as Cally goes, he was laying it out the way it was: She should be mad at Boomer. Boomer was the traitor who shot the Commander. He's just telling her to redirect her anger not at him, which is difficult because he's got a big mouth.

4. 'Flight of the Phoenix', pessimism; weren't a lot of folks pessimistic at first, the difference is that Jammer voiced it. And he made valid points. Had any of that crew ever built an spacecraft before? No. As an engineer myself, I can tell you that it's not an undaunting task. Tyrol was asking them to do something none of them had ever done before and never even fathomed themselves doing and don't think of themselves as qualified to do. I'd be pessimistic. His feeling were extremely valid. But didn't you notice that he was one of the first to volunteer his services after Anthony Figurski?

6. "The Resistance", weapons in the temple & people dying; Didn't he say early in the webisodes that he felt that weapons in the temple was sacrilege? Isn't he allowed his own opinion on the topic instead of just falling into the main protagonists plans? I agree with his statement. It is sacrilege. I understand the circumstances and you gotta do what you gotta do but he's just a kid forced into such a decision for the first time. Then he feels partly responsible afterwards when people die because of it. The kid is torn. And then Colonel Tigh just freaks him out with his retort. His reactions are very understandable.

8. "Occupation", surviving the suicide bomb; You are right, that's where I got the 200 number. I looked at it myself and I saw about 34 cadets and the lines extended off the screen. At least 50 is a good assessment. We can't say for certain how many if there were 35 or 200 or something inbetween, but it is certain to say that there were other surviving NCP. The next day Jammer and about a dozen other NCP went out on a mission so there had to survivors. Jammer just happened to be among the survivors. I looked at it on iTunes again, I don't think that Jammer was right behind Duck. It looked like somebody else. Unless you can verify without a doubt that Jammer was behind Duck, Jammer survived because he was on the other side of the crowd.

You know who Jammer is? He's the average kid whose got his own opinions but isn't informed in all the details. He talks a lot, says the wrong things but doesn't know much better. He's got human foibles just like most everybody else on the show. In my opinion, he's less likely to be a cylon like Ellen Tigh is less likely to be a cylon - they expose us for our human failings.

Also, another general point, undercover cylons tend to be assets to human society until their mission is activated. Boomer was a superb Raptor pilot. Brother Cavil helped Tyrol out of his funk like a good priest should. D'Anne Biers (not that a tabloid writer is an assest to human society but she was doing her job) after much debate with her tabloid self painted a decent enough picture of Galactica and didn't try to destroy morale in the fleet. In the end, the individuals that are screwing up day-to-day are the humans - Ellen Tigh, Baltar, Zarek, Jammer... The cylons lie and wait until that opportune time.

You are right about what the writers may decide to do. Anybody could become a cylon if it all-of-sudden works out for their storyline. Originally, Boomer wasn't a cylon until RDM had to think of something as a good hook at the end of the miniseries and just thought of the coupe that it would be to make Boomer a cylon. So there's always the chance, but I think it's smaller than you say.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:13, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

:Clearly, there are different ways to interpret Jammer's behavior. I think your interetations are all very reasonable. Indeed, if you believe Jammer is a Cylon and is deliberately instilling paranoia among the crew, those reasonable interpretations are the cover for his behavior. It wouldn't work very well if he just said "anyone could be a Cylon so we should all just start killing each other." He would have to be more subtle. The problem is you can rationalize any suspect's actions in this way. Ellen betrayed the humans by giving the map to the Cylons, but did she do it because she was protecting her husband or because she's a Cylon/collaborator? There's enough gray area that if we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then we can't suspect anyone. The writers want to keep us guessing.

:I think you would have to agree that RDM wants us to suspect Jammer. The way he made a point of showing Duck pass by Jammer before the graduation ceremony. The way the camera repeatedly focuses on a person standing very near Duck that, at least, could be Jammer. The way the camera dramatically pauses on Jammer later when we find out that he's not dead. All those, IMO, are clearly attempts to make us suspect Jammer. In fact, I think the best argument against Jammer being a Cylon is that he's too obvious! I actually didn't seriouly suspect Jammer because I felt he was a decoy for the audience. That is, up until I reviewed the graduation ceremony scene; now I'm not so sure. I still doubt that he is, but it largely depends on whether that actually was Jammer standing near Duck. If it was, it's hard to imagine that he survived the blast without a scratch. If I can, I'll get some screen captures, but I'm fairly confident that the guy behind Duck is at least the actor that plays Jammer. That doesn't mean that it's actually Jammer, but I think it's the actor. Jammer has a faint mole on his right cheek. I saw a similar mole on the guy behind Duck. Regarding "Litmus", I didn't say it wasn't evidence; I just said it wasn't proof. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 09:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

::No, I don't agree. I think making us think Jammer is a cylon is farthest from his mind. I think you are putting to much stake into what you are considering evidences. Duck passing Jammer was a convenience for RDM to show that Duck was in "the zone". What I've read about suicide bombers is that have to get psyched up before doing it and are usually not in this world prior to their mission. It was made clear in The Resistance that Duck and Jammer were friends and Duck's state of mind was such that he couldn't see anything but what he was going to accomplish. He was going to die! Do you think that he was going to be concerned with social concerns? That was the point of that pass by. I don't think that was the actor who plays Jammer behind Duck. I don't know how you think that he's too obvious. He seems so typical of a kid his age. Again, I think the cylons shoot higher for the influence of their agents - a raptor pilot (Boomer), public relations (Doral), a priest (Cavil), newsreporter (D'Anne), a medical doctor (Simon), a beautiful woman in the bed of a top scientist for the military who also supposedly represents a major corporation (Six), even the supposed illicit arms dealer (Leobon). All these agents were planted in places of significance. Jammer... is a deckhand. All due respect to deckhands but I wouldn't exactly call that the most influential of places. And the point of this show is not to find the Cylons in our midst like a murder mystery. The point of this show is a lot deeper than that so I don't think they would go so petty as to make Jammer a cylon.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 10:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:As far as Duck's suicide bomb, it's important to note that neither cylons nor humans in close proximity would survive the explotion, the difference is that the cylons ressurrect. In a deleted scene, Jammer is found in the rubble (unharmed is somebody's guess), not in a ressurrection facility. The only way he could survive the event is if he was not in direct nearness to the blast, not because he is a cylon. This is in the least bit evidence. In fact, this is manufactured evidence by those who simply WANT Jammer to be a cylon. Please, will nobody use this as an argument because it simply does not stand up in water.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:07, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:as to the really minor point 3 (but hey, i'm totally anal :) -- i imagine we won't see a citation that defines "roll the hard six" as a pilot term. "rolling something the hard way" is a term from craps (gambling dice game), and refers to the low probability of rolling doubles, say two 3s on a pair of 6-sided dice (which is much lower than rolling a 6 any other way, and consequently gives a much higher payoff) -- ergo, the meaning as used by adama of taking a high risk to get a high payoff). i see no reason why only pilots would gamble on dice games. -- [[User:Piranha|Piranha]] 22:10, 22 November 2006 (CST)

::Well, at this point, the speculation's null and void 'cause Jammer's dead. If Jammer comes BACK from the dead in present time, then he's a Cylon. If he stays dead, not a Cylon, just a dirty Collaborator. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 09:52, 23 November 2006 (CST)

== Anders Speculation ==

While I don't think Anders is a Cylon, the argument that becauase members of the Signifigant Seven (S7) say he is human, he is human is flawed. IFF the S7 cannot even think about the Final Five, then Anders COULD be one of the Final Five, and thus unknowable as such to the S7.{{Unsigned|Mitchy}}

== "Cylon on Cylon violence" ==

At the start of season 3, its mentioned that the events of ''Downloaded'' was the first incident of a Cylon killing another Cylon. That incident had to take place some time after Cally shot Boomer. So for a start, Cally cannot be a Cylon. Neither can anyone who killed a Cylon prior to that be one.

At least, Cally should be entirely removed from suspicion. [[User:Damburger|Damburger]] 04:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:I don't think that this alone would entirely remove possible Cylon-ness from a person because it might only count as Cylon on Cylon violence if the person ''knew'' they were a Cylon. If they were programmed to think they were human as in the case of Boomer, it might not count. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 04:58, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

::It's still not clear how the sleeper agents work. It's possible the true Cylon personality is always aware and the "human" personality is just an act. Leoben's reaction at the end of the torture scene in Flesh and Bone seems to indicate it may work this way, but it's certainly not clear at all. If it is the case that the Cylon personality is always aware and ultimately in control, then there couldn't be a situation of someone not knowing they're a Cylon. However, it may be that Cylon-on-Cylon violence doesn't count if it's consensual, e.g. if Cally is a Cylon, Boomer may have known Cally was going to shoot her. It would most likely have been planned out by the Cylons and Boomer probably would have known about it. Apparently the incident on Caprica, where Six beats the snot out of Sharon to fool Helo, didn't count. I would assume it didn't count because Sharon went along with it. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 08:42, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:::Well, look at Boomer's arc through Season 1. It is almost painfully obvious she has no idea of her true nature. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 10:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::::Her ''human personality'' does not know her true nature, but it's possible that her Cylon personality is always aware of what's going on. It's also possible that the Cylon personality shuts off entirely, but I'm not sure what the point of that would be. From a design standpoint, why not have it on all the time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:This entire statement of first Cylon-on-Cylon violence is false anyway. On Caprica, Athena (formerly Caprica-Sharon) killed one of her own copies ("[[Colonial Day]]"). The Cylons don't know about that because the Sharon in question was too busy looking at Helo to see her killer. Also, Athena uses Heavy Raiders KEWs to shoot the crap out of a squadron of Centurions ("[[The Farm]]"). But since Centurions don't download and the Heavy Raider is still in Colonial custody, the Cylons don't know that either. Also, the irony of the statement should be noted: only minutes after Caprica-Three says this, one of the Fives kills Caprica-Six. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:31, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::Well, you could argue that several times it wasn't really "Cylon on Cylon" violence, since it was all for the mission. Underlying intentions aside, before "Downloaded" Cylons did not kill/hurt one another for personal reasons. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)
::It was self-defense, agreed. However, self-defense still qualifies as Cylon-on-Cylon violence. My real point is that while Three may believe her statement to be true, it isn't (but only Sharon and Helo know that). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 16:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Character Elimination. ==

I've restored Ellen Tigh and Billy Keikaya to the list of low-probability suspects, as the Cylons' capacity for reincarnation means that observed deaths have no impact on the likelihood of their being agents, unless they are killed by other known cylons.

At the very least, the reasoning involved in their elimination from suspicion is obscure, and might be elaborated on at the top of the page.

:I disagree. What we are saying by placing them there is that, unless they show up on screen without being in a flashback, then they are definitely NOT Cylons. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 14:23, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
:: Um...could there be a middle ground here? Personally I'm fine with the dead characters being omitted from the humanoid cylon speculation page BUT I am bothered that they are included on the eliminated characters page. Most haven't actually been eliminated. They simply died and we know cylons can resurrect. To me this is a gray area and as such the dead characters should be omitted from both pages since we don't know either way. Cylons resurrect...death should not be an automatic disqualifier. If this is the criteria then (to be blunt) the criteria needs to be re-examined. --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 05 February 2007.

::That's true, but they are not eliminated from suspicion by that so they don't belong in the "eliminated from suspicion" category. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:::No, they are eliminated from suspicion until they show up in "present time". They're eliminated because, just like Bill Adama, they cannot be Cylons based on our criteria at this time. --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 22:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::::And why should the article reflect a bias towards it being unlikely for them show up again in present time as Cylons? -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:04, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::Frankly speaking, the bias is required because any contributor's theory that dead human characters ''might'' show up again, now that the character has been shown on-screen as dead, is a form of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking]]. This article is really a touch-and-go analysis that can be very subjective. Ellen Tigh and Jammer were strong suspects until they died. However, if we pretend that every possibility is a possibility, it reduces the wiki's effectiveness as a concise encyclopedia. "Dead" is dead and such characters can no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds, if ever. It will be preferable to leave dead characters as "eliminated." We have no further evidence to suggest they will ever return, and shouldn't speculate on death (that's another kind of wiki). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:21, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::I would also disagree that a character's apparent death should result in elimination. I don't think keeping them a suspect is fanwanking any more than the entire agent specualtion page is. If there was good reason to suspect a character before their death, there's no reason to stop suspecting them after. You say a dead character can "no longer be a suspect until the writers change their minds", but how do you know what's in their minds? Maybe there's nothing to change. Maybe they have always planned for Jammer to be a Cylon. His apparent death would do nothing to change that. I understand the concern about entertaining every possibility, but it's not as if this discussion is flooded with strong cases for possible Cylons. There are very few likely candidates.

== Tory Foster ==

* I'm surprised the possibility of [[Tory Foster]] being a Cylon hasn't been brought up yet on the article. -- [[User:Troyian|Troyian]] 15:05, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:The speculation article has lost some steam, given the point that there seem to be only 7 active agents: The rest may be [[boxed]] and "forgotten" per recent episode data. Foster hasn't any significant points for suspicion, save maybe [[Hera]]'s capture, and has been seen infrequently. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 01:08, 12 November 2006 (CST)

== Recent Rollback ==

I reverted edits made by [[User talk:Jettes|Jettes]] as they went against the consensus in both the talk page and article on the needed disqualifiers on human death and age. I have notified Jettes of this matter on the user's talk page. Age is a disqualifier when another character or event can substantiate it (Col. Tigh's age is a disqualifier because of his association with Bill Adama, and vice versa, while Cavil's apparent age would not be sufficient because no one can substantiate it). Death is a disqualifier because only a Cylon can return from it. If I've made any errors in this change, please let me know here. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)

== Galen and Cally Tyrol ==

Am I the only one who thinks their having a son isn't much of a disqualifier for either of these two characters? The Cylons had problems producing with each other and also had problems artifically impregnating humans. Karl Agathon and Athena were said to have mated successfully because love was involved right? If love between a human and a cylon is the linchpin to a cylon/human pregnancy then I see no reason that a second cylon/human pregnancy would not be possible (Baltar's inner Six said Sharon's baby was the first of a new generation...implying more were to come).

Also I think there is circumstansial evidence that lends credence to the idea of one of them being a cylon (I'm of the mind that one or the other is indeed a cylon sleeper).

Galen Tyrol was called to the temple of the 5 (hinted to be connected to the final 5 cylons). Galen suspected he himself was a cylon (Cavill wouldn't have seen him at the cylon meetings as he joked if the Chief was one of the 5). None of his backstory can be confirmed much like the majority of the other characters.

Cally shot the original Boomer who was a potential goldmine of cylon intelligence much like Athena later became. Cally was willing to get involved with, marry the Chief and bear his kid after he beat the crap out of her (her forgiving the chief would be semi-understandable if they had already been sleeping together but she got involved with him AFTER the chief attacked her. That's downright odd).

I'm pretty sure that son of theirs (Nicholas?) will be a second cylon/human offspring. If the 7 known cylon agents were working towards that goal then it stands to reason the 5 unknown cylons might want to do so if they were in a position to do so.

--[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 8:55, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Hi, Meteor. For now, assuming that Cylon pregnancies are nearly impossible to create, the disqualifer still holds. But your points raise some interesting thoughts based on show history with the Chief. What if, instead of the Chief's family history in Colonial religion, that Cylon history has something to do with his attraction to the temple? At the same time, we have one counterpoint: the Chief has been with Adm. Adama's server for over two years, longer than what we have milestoned as Cylon agent introduction; any older and the possibility of being a Cylon is doubtful. I'll chew on this, but maybe we'll have a better idea soon, anyway. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Kara Thrace, Renewed ==

I moved Kara Thrace from the "eliminated" to "low" category after the rumor mills as well as the actor's comments about her character and the episode "Maelstrom" are indicating a plot twist. Not to go totally on the rumor (that's unsourced), there is the matter of the mysterious similarity between a painting in Thrace's apartment and the symbol in the Temple of Five. It's too similar. ''Something'' may connect Thrace to the Temple to the Cylons...but what? I added the photos to the article for comparison. (Credit to a contributor who noted this initially, probably on the "Eye" talk page. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)
:Ausiello recently confirmed [http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/] that she is, indeed, '''not''' a Cylon. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 15:57, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::Yay! --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 19:16, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::That's good. But she is ''something else'', I fear. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::All due respect, but what the frak else could she be? --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 23:07, 17 January 2007 (CST)
:::::POW. :-| [[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 23:22, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::That's what I heard. Which I find quite interesting.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::::::Didn't she already play that role? ;) --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 01:06, 18 January 2007 (CST)
:::::::There's other possibilities. She could get badly injured like Adama from the end of season 1 to early season 2, or end up MIA like she was in early season 1 and Helo was from the end of the miniseries to the end of season 1, she could have a nervous breakdown and go AWOL, blending in with the civilian population, she could shoot someone she finds discovers (or believes) is a traitor or a Cylon agent, end up in a holding cell and not be heard from again until season 4 because she doesn't really factor into the plot of season 4's last 3 episodes. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 04:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Tory Foster ==

See the recent addition on Tory Foster.
:''"She is tasked, and fails, with ensuring the safe transport of Maya and Hera/Isis off the planet. Maya is killed trying to escape New Caprica with the child."''
Tory can't be blamed for Hera's capture: she put a couple of marines in charge of protecting Maya and her child and went on. Hera getting captured is actually a point against Foster being a Cylon: if she were one, she'd have suspected Hera's true nature and would've tried to capture her herself.

:''"Since this fortuitous event was possibly the only benefit that the Cylons permanently gained from their occupation of New Caprica, we should question if Foster truly tried her best, or if she tipped off the Cylons. However, it is unlikely that a targeted Cylon ambush of the Maya and her accompanying guards would shoot her while she is carrying Hera."
Here the article argues with itself, which isn't really a good thing. The only good point made here is in the last sentence: the Centurions fired upon Maya and her escorts, which makes Hera's survival a coincidence.

Lastly, there is a third point against Foster being a Cylon: the entire [[New Caprica Resistance]] knew exactly when Galactica would arrive, what buildings were going to be bombed, how they were going to evac the planet, etc. However, the Cylons were caught by complete surprise, indicating that no one had tipped them off. If any of the resistance members had been a Cylon, they surely would've done just that. (From this it can also be noted that Detention Center-Three was still alive and undiscovered at that point, since she surely would've told the other Cylons how Athena had taken the launch keys). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:55, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:I tend to agree. Unlike other minor characters, Foster's case is less than lower and has more coincidentals than suspicions or direct Cylon agent associations. I've argued this before on this character, which means that she is no more or less suspect than any other character not listed in this article. That is, Foster really hasn't much suspicion to warrant her presence in the article. Other thoughts? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 07:49, 17 January 2007 (CST)
::In my opinion, Foster actually has a *lower* than average chance of being a Cylon. The three points supporting that are right here on top of this section. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:18, 17 January 2007 (CST)

== Aren't all these rules moot due to final 5 ==

Since we have seen the 7 Cylons, any speculative Cylon agent would have to be a member of the so-called "final" 5.
(Oddly this is Baltar's term for them because they are the 5 he has not seen but the other Cylons use it too.)

The final five are not like the seven at all. Indeed, the 7 have never seen them and do not speak of them, it is unsure why they even know there are 5 of them, or even know that they are Cylons. It is just not clear what they know of them or why they think what they do.

However, [[Rapture]] indicates the final 5 are possibly powerful beings, dating back 4,000 years or more, and with much more advanced technology than seen earlier in the show. They may possibly be the creators of the 7 Cylons, as well as the lords of Kobol. This, however, is just speculation.

What isn't so speculative is that they are very special, and if so, they may well have been around since before the colonies were founded, and may well have highly advanced biotech making them able to have children where the 7 can't. They also would not be subject to the 4,000 year old virus.

As such, we can't say with much assurance that anybody is not one of these 5. Even though Adama is old, fought in the war, has children and has been exposed to the virus, he could still be one of the final 5. As could anybody, except for the 7. D'Anna tells Cavil that "there are five other Cylons, and one day you will see them." Unless what we saw in the Temple of 5/Opera House was her dream, and she's ranting (which would be disappointing) the 7 are the only ones ruled out.

However, there are other clues. For example, one of the 5, or their agent, presumably contaminated the food supply to take the fleet to the Algae planet for the carefully timed events there. Anybody involved in the incredible coincidences that, as Baltar says, "it couldn't possibly be by chance that both of us are here at this moment" is probably one of these hidden beings, or subject to their will. That includes Tyrol with his compulsion to find the temple, Starbuck with her mandala, Baltar with his inner 6, and 6 with her inner Baltar. {{unsigned|Bradtem}}

:The knowledge Cylon agents come programmed with could also include the model count. The podcasts also support the assumption that there's twelve Cylon agents. I doubt that the Final Five are over 4000 years old, however I wouldn't be surprised if the five priests of the One Whose Name cannot Be Told were the previous cycle's equivalent of Cylons. Anyway, characters who match the established pattern of known agents and our very limited knowledge of the Final Five are more likely candidates than those who don't. If someone who doesn't meet the criteria is proven to be a Cylon then the criteria can be revised. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 02:07, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:The final five 4,000 years old? They are '''Cylons''', which means man '''created''' them '''52 years''' ago (52 years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], anyway). The idea of the 5 intentionally catalyzing the events around the algae planet is a nice one, though. The final five being 'special', as you call them, is every bit as speculative as saying they can have children. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:49, 1 February 2007 (CST)

::Remember: Only "Three" and Baltar assumed that an association exists between a temple built some 4,000 years before the Cylon even ''existed'' and the Final Five. We have seen only what Three has seen; it might have been a totally different matter if Baltar used the mechanism. As such, no, the rules of what a Cylon could or could not be must stand until we have overwhelming proof or specific criteria that says otherwise that redefines it. For all we know, Starbuck could be her own super-great-great-grandma, which could have been one of the faces Three had seen. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:18, 1 February 2007 (CST)

:::[[Laura Roslin]] also talks about a possible connection between the temple and the final five in [[Taking a Break From All Your Worries]]. If the [[Sacred Scrolls|Cycle of Time]] is real (which is not necessarily the case) then there's a fairly good chance that the previous cycles had some equivalent of Cylons (who may or may not have survived into modern times). I still think that the Final Five are just regular agents whose duties require them to operate in secrecy. -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 03:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:::Not just Three and Baltar. The Hybrid is the one who directed them to the Eye of Jupiter. If, as they speculated, the Cylon God or some other powerful being speaks through the Hybrid, then there appears to be an association between the Final Five and the Temple of five. All we know is that Three stepped in at the magic moment and saw 5 beings, one of whom she knew and had wronged, which would certainly not be 5 long-dead Earthling priests. It may be in her imagination, but it also killed her, which is strong evidence it's real. Thus I have to say we can conclude little about the capabilities of the five -- the Cylon 7 certainly know nothing about them, even fear so much as talking about them (for reasons not established). It seems likely that with this fear and secrecy that it would be wrong to assume the same rules learned about the 7 apply to the 5. If Adama turns out to be a member of the final 5, or Roslin, I don't think it violates any principle we learned about the 7. Of course Loeben's claim that Adama is a Cylon should be baseless, as he has not seen the final 5 either. I think for now we should accept D'Anna's vision as probably based on something real, and that means somebody she knows and wronged is a member of a group involved with the Temple of Five, and which is also able to send messages through the Hybrid. This strongly suggests they are not beings that were created 43 years ago.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 15:17, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::Ron Moore stated a direct connection between the final five Cylons and the temple in an interview. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

::::If the Final Five aren't "beings that were created 43 years ago", why do the significant seven refer to them as "Cylons"? They appear to be convinced that the final five are Cylons just like they are. Caprica-Six even says "there are twelve models", even though she's only ever seen seven. Also, there doesn't have to be someone speaking through the Hybrid, it probably just gave prophecy. I agree with you that the D'Anna didn't see a bunch of 4,000-year-old priests, and the Final Five being connected to the Temple of Five is almost certainly not a coincidence. But whoever or whatever the Final Five are, they certainly are Cylons, which means they were machines created some time during the Armistice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 15:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
:::::Remember, all this has happened before. It's credible that the 5 are Cylons, but from an earlier generation. It's also possible that the humans are all actually cylons of an earlier generation too, which would fit well with the "happened before" motif. The 7 have not seen the 5, are forbidden to speak about them. We don't know what they know but it's not much. They 5 could be the creators of the 7, or annointees of the cylon God (the 5 priests are after all the priests of a lord who must not be named) It's possible the 5 Cylons made modified the temple just recently, but the parallels between the 5 Cylons and 5 priests suggest it is more than that. Since there is no time travel, "prophecy" from the Hybrid or Selloi or the rest is a communication from higher beings. That the Hybrid directed Baltar/Three to the eye of Jupiter strongly implies the higher beings/Cylon God wanted them to go there. If the Cylon God is real, it's likely more than 43 years old. Mind you, I am not as convinced as you that the final 5 are Cylons as the 7 think of Cylons. That is just what they are programmed to think, they do not appear to know it from direct experience.--[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 17:50, 3 February 2007 (CST)
::::::No one said that the Cylon God is only 43 years old. Remember that the Cylon God is supposed to be God, not a supercomputer or Cylon of any kind. The five and seven are supposed to be all of a kind and while your theory about that is possible, it seems needlessly intricate to me. Also bear in mind that the 7 include Numbers Three, Five, and Eight, so the 5 and 7 must be interspersed in the numbering scheme, and that RDM has said that the Cylons made 12 models in the image of 12 human archetypes. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 14:25, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::::::The Cylon god appears to be a real, intervening being. The cylons are of differing theologies regarding him. D'Anna seems to call him "the one who programmed us" though at the same time we are told Cylons were originally programmed by humans. Right now, the fact that the 7 have never seen the 5 makes no sense. Nothing we have been shown even remotely explains it. On top of that they are forbidden to talk about the 5 by some strange concensus, enforced by Cavil who doesn't even buy the theology. At this point the Cylon god could be like the Christian god. But there's one thing, short of the hallucination explanation, that we do know. 5 figures, at least on of whom is a human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with, appeared to 3 when the 4,000 year old Temple of Five was activated -- a temple built by the 13th tribe (Earthlings) and described in the scrolls as being dedicated to 5 priests who worship one whose name must not be spoken. To a lot of us, this strongly that the one whose name must not be spoken is probably the Cylon god. Just what are humans on the fleet doing in that temple in the role of the 5 priests? --[[User:Bradtem|Bradtem]] 02:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)
::::::::We don't know for sure that the 7 have never seen the final 5. It's possible their memories of them have been erased or blocked. We don't even know for sure that the figures D'Anna saw in the temple were actually the final 5. She thought they were, but Six told Baltar that he was the chosen one and that only the chosen one could see the final 5. We also don't know for sure that one of the five figures D'Anna saw is a "human character on the show that 3 had major dealings with". That's certainly the first thought I had when I saw her reaction, but we don't know for sure that's the case. --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)
:Why has no one suggested the priestess/shaman lady that interpreted d'anna's dreams in the first part of the season? She seems to fit the bill as the most suspicious person yet. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 23:28, 6 February 2007 (CST)

==Two years?==

Ok a lot of this article hinges on the assumption that cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years prior to the destruction of the colonies. Where in the mini is this explained? I remember the vision of Six in Baltar's head something about them sleeping together for two years but I don't remember any evidence to support the claim that the humanoid cylons have only been infiltrating the colonies for two years. Is there anything else to back up the claim? --[[User:Meteor|Meteor]] 1 February 2007.
:In "[[The Farm]]", after Boomer's death, Adama says: "She was a vital, living person… aboard my ship for almost two years."
:The notion that Caprica-Six's relationship with Baltar and Boomer's service on ''Galactica'' began at the same time was taken as too great a coincidence to ignore. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:41, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::But it should be noted that Boomer probably attended a Colonial military academy for some years prior to her assignment to ''Galactica''. So while she served on the ship for two years, the length her military service is probably closer to 5. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 11:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)
:::Boomer is a Cylon. We don't know for sure if she ever ''existed'' with the Colonial Fleet prior to the two-year mark. The two-year mark is also noted by Caprica-Six when speaking to the downloaded, in-denial Boomer in "Downloaded." Her training, like her memories of her parents, were part of her sleeper agent programming. Credentials as a Colonial officer, including any past assignments in it, can also be falsified; we ''are'' dealing with people who are literally computers, after all and can make this stuff up. The two-year mark is not an assumption and is well-established; we don't know if they were integrated any earlier, but we know at least two years prior. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
::::I was mainly thinking about her records. That she wouldn't just be assigned out of the blue. Yeah, they could be falsified, but I have the impression that the Cylons had only infiltrated the defense network (through Baltar) and not the entire Colonial/military computer system.
::::And yes, the two years timespan is established. But that doesn't mean that the infiltration didn't begin even earlier. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:20, 1 February 2007 (CST)

== Article name ==

I don't want to start a huge discussion here, but IMO this is one of the cases where "Cylon agent" would have been fine, since all the characters would actually be infiltrators. But for the sake of consistency it's probably better to have roughly identical names --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 08:45, 2 February 2007 (CST)
:The final five might know they are Cylons but choose not to reveal themselves to Cylons/Humans alike, therfor isnt technically an agent of either side. Plus this page was already linked to on half a dozen pages already as a broken link where ppl had meant to put Cylon Agent Spec... I just fixed it. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup>
::Ouch. This is arguably the most painful series of changes I've dealt with here. Makes the whole Merovingian thing pale in comparison... <nowiki><teethbrace></nowiki> -[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

== Virus Qualifier ==

Given the possibility that Athena's immunity to the virus may have downloaded along with her, potentially making all Cylons immune, should the virus qualifier be removed? Or, is the idea that the immunity may or may not (meaning Athena is no longer immune) have downloaded with her too speculative at this time? --[[User:Todd|Todd]] 03:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)

:The virus qualifier is still valid IMO.
:# Athena's download was months after the events of [[A Measure of Salvation]]. The virus should've killed any member of the baseship boarding party by then.
:# Even ''if'' Athena's immunity carried to the Resurrection Ship and to the other Cylons there, keep in mind that the final five are not aboard the Cylon fleet, so they were unable to get immune. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 06:20, 4 February 2007 (CST)

::What about sorting [[characters eliminated from suspicion]] into "characters eliminated from speculation" and "characters suspended from speculation due to death"? -- [[User:Gordon Ecker|Gordon Ecker]] 01:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)
:::Good idea, we're getting quite a lot of deaths these days. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 08:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

: As only memories download into a new body, one can reasonably assume that the immunity did not, as the immunity is a ''biological'' reaction resulting from her pregnancy. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 20:23, 6 February 2007 (CST)

User:Azselendor

2007-01-26T18:21:02Z

Azselendor: adding a to-do-list for myself

<div style="padding: 1em 1em 1em 2em; position: relative;">
;DTSL Williams
:of [[Orlando]], [[Florida]] in the [[United States]]
;Galactican
:since [[2005]]
;Contributions
:[[Special:Contributions/Azselendor|here]]
; Contact
: [[Special:Emailuser/Azselendor]]
: AIM  IM: '''Azselendor'''
;I work for
: [http://www.xtermpest.com Orlando Pest Control]
: [http://www.orbportals.com/poi Point of Inception XPM]
</div>

=== Things I plan to do here ===
<div style="padding: 1em 1em 1em 2em; position: relative;">
;Overall Plans
: I plan to work on topics about BSG Products and Merchandise, Religion, And maybe touching up articles to look nice.
;TV Shows
: [[Battlestar Galactica]] - duh
;Other stuff
:[[history]], [[politics]], [[athiests]]
</div>

{{userpage}}

Talk:Humanoid Cylon/Archive4

2007-01-10T19:49:51Z

Azselendor:

{{archive-header
| archivenumber = 01
| number = 1
| start = April 2, 2005
| end = January 23, 2006
| items = {{archive-item|01|12 Cylon or 12 Humano-Cylon models?}} {{archive-item|01|Same, yet Different?}} {{archive-item|01|Origin of the Term "Humano-Cylon"?}} {{archive-item|01|Hybrids/Sharon's daughter article?}} {{archive-item|01|Order of Models}} {{archive-item|01|Re: Adama and Gaeta being ruled out as "Humano-Cylons"}} {{archive-item|01|Ellen Tigh}} {{archive-item|01|Cylon Series Revision}} {{archive-item|01|Did Boomer really know the count of infiltrators}} {{archive-item|end=Y|01|List of people who are ruled out as Cylons?}}
|}}

== Anti-Atheist Opinions ==
I just removed anti-atheist comments added to the cavil entry. just because he's an atheist doesn't make him automatically immoral and worse than his religious counterparts. Nor has cavil shown anything that one couldn't find in his religious counterparts, he's just obtuse. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 13:49, 10 January 2007 (CST)

== Replacement and retirement of article title ==

:''This discussion's origin originated in [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Standards and Conventions#Replacement and retirement of the term "Humano-Cylon"|the Standards and Conventions talk page]], where you can find the original content.''

Per the discussion in the above link, I plan to move this article to [[Cylon agent]], as it is the most commonly used term to describe the humanoid Cylon models. "Humano-Cylon" will redirect here, and we will need to scour for other terms to redirect as well. This name is sufficiently canonical that it is unlikely that further debate is required. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 14:58, 14 February 2006 (EST)

:Go for it. Though with an article title of "Cylon agent", it would be great to have a screen capture of the file on Laura's desk that has that wording on it. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 14 February 2006 (EST)

:I may just spend $2 on iTunes to get just that. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:14, 14 February 2006 (EST)

::Move completed; no Big Thang. Summary subarticle in Cylon series pages also updated. Please update any pages for old terminology when appropriate. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 15:33, 14 February 2006 (EST)

: Am I right in saying that all references to Humano-Cylon should be changed to Cylon agent> --[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 08:12, 6 March 2006 (CST)
::That's correct. We're going with "Cylon agent" since the only evidence indicating "Humano-Cylon" (see below) may have been doctored by the Cylons to throw us off... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:19, 6 March 2006 (CST)

:::Just to clarify; they made the picture below as a joke. Really, we discussed it on our Conventions page, and "human-cylon" seemed too much like describing the Hybrid, and hasn't gained much outside use, so we opted for something else. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)

== Known Cylon Agents ==
That pic is AWESOME! It fits the section so well that I would normally suspect that it had been photoshopped (if I hadn't already seen it in the show). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:00, 15 February 2006 (EST)
:Perhaps you moved the article too soon...
:I'll likely delete this image soon. I just had the idea of Photoshopping the folder after the preceding post. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 18:19, 15 February 2006 (EST)
:Photoshop: Suitable tool, or instrument of Satan? --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:37, 15 February 2006 (EST)

== Naming Convention ==

As of "[[Downloaded]]" we now finally know some other Model numbers besides Number Six: "D'anna Biers" is '''Number Three''', "Aaron Doral" is '''Number Five''', and "Sharon 'Boomer' Valerii" is '''Number Eight'''.

In light of this, should we change the title of some, or all, of their character articles to read "Number Three", etc. like for Number Six? Because apparently, among themselves the Cylons never actually use the fake human names some used as spys, or indeed refer to themselves by name at all. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:59, 25 February 2006 (EST)

I would think that the unfortunately named Number Two is a pretty thankless job. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:00, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Yes, where those numbers are known. I broached the subject on [[Talk:Sharon Valerii]] and am currently awaiting a little more feedback before we go ahead with the move. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 03:07, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Do the Cylons tend to look out for Number One? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Number One is not a number, he is a man. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:10, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:A free man? [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 03:24, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::I agree with changing the title of ALL articles referring to the mainstream model, making two new for D'anna and Aaron (the media models) like we did for the sharons and sixes.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 25 February 2006

When did "we" start calling them "Galactica-Boomer", "Caprica-Boomer", "Pegasus-Six", etc? You see, Televesionwithoutpity.com does make up and popularize terms like this....but I'm not sure if they STARTED using it, or if they TOOK UP using it from some reviewer or the messageboards. I seriously think this is one of those Stand Alone Complex things; we all just more or less independently, from the grassroots up, got the idea to do that. Anyone? --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 04:49, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Pretty much. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:03, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::I generally compel the proper use of "Boomer" to the Galactica model only, as she is the copy that actually served. ''No one'' in episodes have called the Caprica copy by that name, and things are confusing enough. "Caprica-Valerii" or "Galactica-Valerii" (or Boomer) is better. Otherwise, yes, we have to make things up until we get an official term, but we should be consistent and precise about it. ''Never'' use Sharon in any context--use of character first names only is against wiki convention in episode summaries. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:19, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:::Actually, Baltar called Caprica-Sharon "Boomer" at the end of Home, part 2. But what does he know?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:55, 9 March 2006 (EST)

== Question: a Cylon agent transfers its consciousness... ==

I just started watching BSG about a week ago and im only part way through season 2, but I'm thinking isn't there a way for the Galactica crew to stop the cylon agents they kill from transmiting their consciousness? Cant they put the agent in a room with thick metal walls to stop the signal, or put their bodies into a woodchipper, or something similar, so whatever system in the body that transmits will be destroyed? In season one they just tossed the agent out an airlock, they didn't even try to stop him. I guess they really haven't explained yet how it is even possible for the agent's body to come up with enough energy to transmit their entire consciousness in an undetectable signal instantly across several light years. Maybe they'll get to it in a future episode, including the ones I haven't seen yet. Right now, its very magical fairies. --[[User:Bp|Bp]] 17:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)

: It comes up a bit later. Specifically, right after the mid-season cliff-hanger of Season 2. Not ''all'' your questions will be answered, but it becomes less magical. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:09, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== Grace Park Reveals Cylon Secrets.... ==
MediaBlvd's interview with Grace Park was releasd in the full today, revealing a few more things about the nature of the Cylons that had not been released before. A lot of things are Park's own point of view, but she does mention a few interesting facts she read in the "Cylon Handout". Some of these facts include:

:" Because Cylons were created in the form of humans, and humans were created in God’s image, and Cylons want to be close to God, they can actually choose - but some models more likely than others tend to eat rather than just taking in nutrients. We just learned all this, I didn’t even know it, but taking in nutrients, I think through the skin"

:"There would be specific ports in the Cylon base ship that they could do this, and they can also do that with information."

:"- it wasn’t a very specific jack, like your phone jack in the wall. Nothing like that in her arm."

:"A little bit of both of that. Within one model, the different bodies can share memories, but within that model only. Now I use the words ‘CAN share memories,’ because it’s not like they all automatically share them. I’m under the understanding that you can choose to upload, and you can choose to download information."

:"- that the Cylons that we’ve known so far are programmed not even to think about the last five."

These are the actual facts she mentions, amidst her opinions, but what I posted were the solid facts. The last one had already been mentioned before, but this comment clarified that it's not that they don't know who they are, they just don't think about them.

There are also some other interesting tidbits in there (such as why exactly the Naked Sharons let themeselves die) which may help other articles.

I wanted to ask before posting any of this information, it's all solid and concise, but should we nonetheless abstain from putting in the bits we got (because we have nothing else and it would prove to be tantalizing). I think we should put it in, since they are actual facts from the new "Cylon Bible", but I wanted to pass it here so that you can judge on where to put them and how to word them. (Cuz I suck at actually adding it on the article, so I'd rather share the info and let someone else do the fine tuning on the article itself)

For the full interview: http://www.mediablvd.com/magazine/Magazine-Home/MBMag_20060420145.html

--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:22 09 May 2006

:That's kind of how I always rationalized they must share info; not between models, not a hive mind, they CAN but don't alaways. This "nutrient bath" thing is new and intruiging though. "This form brings us closer to God"; yeah I was already theorizing on this after that comment in KLG II that that's why they wanted to appear humanlike. Anyway, great to get some more or less confirmation on those musings/speculation. ***I don't know why, but some people treated it as a "oh my God, massive spoiler" that the 7 known Cylon models might not consciously think of who the unrevealed ones are. I mean, it doesn't actually affect the plot or ANY of our speculation so far; always assumed they had some sort of saftey feature like that for secrecy. '''I wonder: was this "Cylon Bible" RECENTLY written?''' The [[Series Bible]] was written in the break between the Miniseries and season one. Of course, they could have had these Cylon points as running ideas in the writer's room, but is this new, written down 10 page-ish long "Cylon Bible" something new she got? Context. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 21:26, 9 May 2006 (CDT)

::It seems the series bible did not containt detailed information on the Cylon Characters beyond the basics, the new bible is specifically made for Cylons I think, probably detailing some history, both personal and such, and the kind of things that may help an actor understand who/what they are playing.

Also, this nutrient bath may be the reason we saw the Sharons naked in KLG2, rather than the Cylons being nudists., and maybe that's also why that part of the Basestar is organic, because it feeds the Ships and the Agents. Guess we'll know in Season 3 --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]]

:::Well I always thought they were naked just because they were "fresh off the assembly line" or "in storage" or whatever; like Terminator. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 16:09, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

::::Maybe, but with the Resurrection Ship.... --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]]10 May 2006

So wouldn't the Grace Park interview indicate that the evidence "against" Baltar being a Cylon presented in Downloaded is pretty much bupkis? If the agents arent supposed to think of him as an agent, they'd call him a human. In fact, Baltar's behavior is so selfish it borders on cliche. It would seem to me that he would fit the "selfish asshole" archetype of humanity pretty damned well. --[[User:Number Thirteen|Number Thirteen]] 01:04, 12 October 2006 (CDT)

== telepathic abilities ==

When Sharon met here "sisters" in the basestar, she could hear their voices. Could that mean, that she has telepathic abilities? Or possibly a kind of relaying made this possible? -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 12:06, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:Hi, Tirkon. We really don't have any information into the actual manner in which agents transfer low level data (specifically, their memories). They aren't like the Borg; they haven't a collective consciousness. For Boomer to "hear" their voices may suggest that she (as a sleeper) was hearing this low level data transfer for the first time, and being on a basestar may have exacerbated this ability. Agents very likely share data from a collective knowledgebase (since models of the same kind seem to know much of what another model knows, to a point). Since Cylon agents are still constructs, the concept of telepathic abilities suggest implausible things that attribute more biological (even spiritual) concepts to these constructs that probably don't apply; a machine can definitely transmit and receive data (something proven in "Downloaded") so this is the best way to consider Boomer's realization, in my opinion. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:22, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

== humanoid cylons stronger than humans ==
I think, it is confirmed, that the humanoid cylons are stronger than humans. I.e. confirmed by the fights Starbuck-Number Six, Starbuck-Leoben and William Adama-Leoben. In particular during the fight Starbuck-Number Six Six throws Starbuck as hard as a human never could. During "Downloaded" Six slays Number Three with a huge piece of concrete, which never could be handled so easy by a human. And this piece must have bean very heavy, because the head of Number Three was mud after that. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 12:43, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:That's generally true. While their bodies are still just as vulnerable to injury as a human body, their strength is definitely greater, although we can't state by how much. We can assume that they are strong enough to pick up a human of similar size, but are not strong enough to bend steel bars (otherwise captured agents could escape their cages). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:57, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::''>We can assume that they are strong enough to pick up a human of similar size'' ... and throw it about four meters. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:13, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::And there seems to be a little disaccord. If one is strong enough for doing that, he also must be heavy enough for doing that (balance weight). That is opposite to the sex between Baltar and Six, when Six was lying on him (the read vertebral column in miniseries). -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:39, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

== humanoid cylons = agents? ==
You always talk here from the humoid cylons as agents. Is that realy true? Are they ALL!! agents? Possibly the word "agent" does not have the same meaning in Englisch and German. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 12:32, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:The term "Cylon Agent" came [[:Image:Cylonagentdossier.jpg|from the show]]. See the [[Cylon_agent#_note-name|name note]] at the bottom of the article. So it's mostly a matter of trying to be "canonical" than trying to imply any sort of affiliation or loyalty. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 12:50, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::Aaaaaah! Thanks for that claricifation. :o) In the german Battlestar version the term "agent" is not as common. German Wikipedia points out a difference between the english and german use of term "agent". Thus this could be a matter for that. Further the view of some cylons ("the heros in "Download") has changed. Thus in german Battlestar Wiki I have used "humanoid cylon" instead of "cylon agent". And with you comment I am safe, that this dicision was adequate. Sorry for cannot beeing as precise as I would. But I am not a native english speaker. -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:23, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Maybe its just me but i always loved the term [[Humano-Cylon]] ^_^ --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] <sup>([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]])</sup> 13:30, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Not a problem! Looks like everything worked out. Also, bear in mind that the standards and conventions of the particular wiki should rule for its articles. That is to say, the German Wiki's standards and conventions should govern the articles at the German wiki. Don't let the [[BW:SC|English version]] restrict you at all. As long as you're consistent with your own rules there the German reader/editor will have a more standard/uniform experience. (Though you may want to update [[:de:Battlestar Wiki:Standards und Konventionen|that page ]] once you've established new conventions). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:34, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
::::''>want to update that page'' At present we are just two translaters. And we are still going to built up the structere and translate the episodes and the most important characters. At this state such conventions are not the point. ;o) And the human cylons was until now the only point, what was a little problematic for me. Thus I wanted discuss this with the well-versed people here. And this was helpful :o) -- [[User:Tirkon|Tirkon]] 13:55, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

== Unseen cylon agent (miniseries) ==

In the miniseries, Number Six mentions to Baltar that she is meeting someone (26:35 into the miniseries) when they are walking in public prior to the attack. She leaves Baltar and immediately meets with an unseen person (27:12), remarking "It's about time, wondered when you'd get here". This person can only be a cylon - but they never appear on screen. Who could it be?

--[[User:Cfuxe|cfuse]] 06:48, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

: Anyone. It could also be just another very human bloke Six had contact with during her time on Caprica. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:10, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

== Cylon naming and instancing ==

Cylons agents (including sleeper agents) appear to be able to distinguish different instances of the same cylon model from one and other without any difficulty. In Downloaded, 'Sharon' seems to have no difficulty in identifying individual cylons apart, despite the fact that all cylons of a given model are visually identical. In addition, she is admonished for using her name because it is a vestige of her human identity and presumably redundant in cylon society.

--[[User:Cfuxe|cfuse]] 06:57, 18 September 2006 (CDT)
: Honestly, we don't know how they do it, and I doubt that it'll ever be explained in the series. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 10:13, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

== Centurions ==

It's been added that Cylon Centurions can't tell the difference between copies of the same model, but that's not what Adama said. He said that they can't tell one humanoid Cylon (ex: Sharon) apart from any other humanoid Cylon. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 18:51, 10 October 2006 (CDT)

== A word about Number Three ==

The entry about Number Three says, that <i>of all the Cylon agent models revealed to viewers, the Colonials are not yet aware that D'anna Biers is a Cylon agent as of the season two finale, "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II."</i><br>
Oh, c'mon. In "Downloaded" D'Anna, along with other Cylons, was clearly seen by Samuel Anders. In "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I" Anders arrives on Galactica - did you think that he hasn't told the others about what he saw on Caprica? The moment Anders was rescued by Starbuck&Co., the true identity of D'Anna was no longer a secret (hence her presence on New Caprica).-- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 17:29, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

:Hi, Spike. Aside from the article now being out of date, the specific clarification you're missing is "of all the Cylon agents revealed to viewers, the ''members of [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]]'' are not aware that D'anna Biers is a Cylon as of "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II."" ''Galactica's'' members and her Fleet may still be unaware that the one named D'Anna is a Cylon (but has likely received intel from their Raptor deployments in Season 3). Anders (although a Colonial) was not part of the Fleet until the end of LDYB and may have not seen the documentary that Biers created, thus not being able to inform the Fleet of yet another Cylon. It is likely that he does inform them; we as viewers aren't enlightened to this until the obvious events on New Caprica where all known agents are revealed to them. (Please be sure to sign your comments; place a couple of dashes and four tilde symbols (~). --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:32, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

== Cylons as the Lords of Kobol ==

Given the 12 models of Cylon Agents, it seems possible that they represent the 12 Lords of Kobol. Many of the models seem to have traits associated with the Olympians. I’m not suggesting that the Cylons actually are the gods themselves, but copies of the gods. They may or may not know that they represent the gods. A list of the Olympians matches fairly well with what we know about some of the Cylons. (In particular, the Number 6 / Aphrodite connection is almost undeniable.) Some agents who we know less about (Simon, Cavil) are a looser fit.

'''Poseidon''', God of the Sea. Holds influence among the Olympians, but is greedy and quarrelsome. - Cavil? ||
'''Hades''', God of the Underworld. Unpitying, always in control of his domain. Abducted a woman to be his wife – Leoben ||
'''Hera''', Zeus’s wife. Holds great influence, constantly schemes. - Number 3 ||
'''Ares''', God of War. A brutal murderer, but also a coward. - Number 5 ||
'''Athena'''. A fierce soldier and protector of her people. - Number 8 ||
'''Aphrodite''', Goddess of Beauty. Holds great power over men. - Number 6 ||
'''Hephaestus''', God of the Forge. Skills are mental, and creation, not a fighter. - Simon

This leaves Zeus, Hestia, Apollo, Hermes, and Artemis as the remaining unknown Cylons. Does anyone else think there may be something to this, or have better fits for some agents? --[[User:PhoenixDreams|PhoenixDreams]] 14:24, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

: I've definitely considered the possibility that the Cylon Models and the Lords of Kobol are intimately connected for quite a while. The problem always was that the Greek Pantheon did not neatly end up with a dozen gods, so there was a fair amount of guess work for the what the remaining Lords of Kobol were. For example, I doubt Hestia will be one of them: she's a fairly obscure goddess. Demeter or Dionysus are more likely candidates.

: I really like some of the parallels you've come up with though. Aphrodite=Six was always the fairly obvious one, and I've considered Sharon as Athena. I quite like the parallels between Leoben and Hades. All of the other parallels you've come up with work. It's just that without knowing all of the Lords of Kobol and all of the models, and what roles they will ultimately play, it's hard to say exactly how everyone fits. Sure, at the moment Number Six seems to obviously be the Aphrodite of the Cylons, but with her obsession with childbirth, I sometimes wonder if she's destined to be Artemis. Not that she's especially virginal. [[User:Alpha5099|Alpha5099]] 14:52, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

They could be the 12 Gods of Kobol, or one for each of the 12 Colonies, which then of course suggests there may be a 13th secret model to correspond to Earth. [[User:Yaneh|Yaneh]] 13:28, 15 November 2006 (EST)

== The 5 remaining agents ==
I think it is apparent that the function of the 5 remaining agents is different from the function of the 7 known agents (my analysis) since the 7 seem to be making decisions on both New Caprica and on the basestar about Baltar and the other 5 are not. Additionally, we have Aaron Douglas's speculation on their status and there is probably other evidence but I honestly haven't done any research on that. Is there enough beef behind this line of reasoning to say that it's not speculation on my part and is worthy of putting SOMETHING on the article page? --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 21:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)
:It's certainly speculation, and moreover, it's based on spoilers. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:25, 29 October 2006 (CST)

== Possibilities ==

I wonder if there is a non-humanoid sapient Cylon we haven't seen yet, maybe something too large to effectively move around (perhaps stuck on the Cylon homeworld that the Cylons disappeared to after the first Cylon war). It could explain a number of things, including how the Cylon agents came into being -- perhaps they are a sort of iPod version of the non-humanoid sapient Cylons, fitting a technological sapience into a more convenient humanoid form.

Centurions themselves nor their ships could not have been all there was to the Cylons in the days of the first Cylon war -- how could they rebel? They simply follow orders and carry them out. There must have been *something* or *someone* in those days to alter their programming if not have some sort of control seizure to make them rebel against the human Colonials. It may have originally been some sort of central server-like system.

Its just a wild idea, and probably not what the writers have in mind, but something like it could explain some of the seeming inconsistencies and plot holes. Something completely different could also work, I suppose. The Centurions certainly don't seem to have true sapience, and I doubt they have any religious conceptions. --[[User:Itsua|Itsua]] 08:38, 9 November 2006 (CST)

: There's a lot we don't know about the Cylons past. However, it's been hinted at that the old Centurions had artifical intelligence, which allowed them to think independently. The new Cylon Centurions, however, don't have a true artificial intelligence since the Cylons themselves didn't want their own machines to rebel against them (this is established in "[[Precipice]]", by the way). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]]</sup> 09:01, 9 November 2006 (CST)

::It seems improbable that the Cylons were originally ''just'' Centurions whom later created the Agents, unless the original Centurions were just as sapient (if not moreso) as the Agents. I'm hoping/guessing the origin of the Agents will be explored in future episodes, and perhaps Caprica will explain more of the Cylon origins. --[[User:Itsua|Itsua]] 06:10, 11 November 2006 (CST)

:::I got the distinct impression that the Centurions were originally true AIs and created the skinjobs over intermediate stages like the Raiders and Hybrids. But then the skinjobs - in a nice parallel to humanity - enslaved the Centurions and stripped them off most of their intelligence. As said all that is touched on in "Precipice" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 06:22, 11 November 2006 (CST)

== Major Revision ==

I've made heavy reorganization and concisions to this article to make it easier to discern the nature of these characters. I've removed data redundant with episode or character articles, and also removed a great deal of [[Battlestar Wiki:Fanwanking|fanwanking material]] that was introduced into the article. The article is still on the long side; further concision to reduce redundancies with other articles is appreciated. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:12, 10 November 2006 (CST)

== Origin of Cylon Agents ==

This article asserts, as fact, that the Cylon agents are the result of technological development by the previous Cylon models.

Is this conclusively established in the series so far?

I have suspected that the origin of the Cylon agents was likely the result of either a miraculous fluke or contact with another advanced intelligence — perhaps the Lords of Kobol, whatever the frak they were. Perhaps even God, though it seems unlikely that He would involve Himself in the affairs of the world in such a literal manner (if He exists at all, which is an open question).

If the Cylons have complete access to and understanding of the technology to create the agents, why are they limited to 12 models? It seems they should have the ability to create additional models whenever they want to, the same way that they created the first 12.

[[User:Capedia|Capedia]] 13:46, 22 November 2006 (CST)
:I don't think they want to create more models. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 19:04, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Well, from what RDM said, the Cylons viewed humanity as only having twelve archetypes. There would need to be a serious change in Cylon society as a whole for ther(See: [[Cylon agent#Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models]].)

== Human names ==

It's been bugging me lately, but I was wondering about the use of their human names. Are they used solely for infiltration, or are these adopted names? On one hand, we have the Leobons, Cavils, and Simons whose numbers are unknown obviously because they've yet to be called aloud by such. The other side is Six, who has used more than one human name (and I might add, is the only model who has yet to be assigned a specific name). There is also the Eights, only two of which have ever been named Sharon Valleri - one as a sleeper and the other using the name deliberately as part of an operation. Not to mention that Simon and Cavil don't even have full names. Can anyone elighten me on this issue? I see it's been touched upon here and there in this talk page, but nothing posted has given me a satisfactory answer. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 02:57, 3 January 2007 (CST)
:In "The Eye of Jupiter" the Cylons used their human names among themselves. D'Anna and Cavil, and I think Simon too. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 05:44, 3 January 2007 (CST)
:Individuality is rare among the Cylons. To clarify Serenity, the human names are aliases common to a single model and appear to be used interchangably with their numbering. For Cavil, Leoben Conoy and Simon, the human names are the only names we know as they have not yet been assigned a number. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 08:03, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Humanoid Cylon

2007-01-10T19:47:26Z

Azselendor: removed anti-athiest opinions

:''For information on the robotic Cylons of the [[Original Series]], see [[Cylons (TOS)]]. For information on a human-appearing Cylon from ''[[Galactica 1980]]'', see [[Andromus]].''<br />

[[Image:CyAg.jpg|thumb|300px|Cylon copies of (from left) [[Number Six]] (two copies), [[Leoben Conoy]] and [[Number Five]] (two copies), at [[Ragnar Anchorage]]]]

'''Cylon agents'''<ref>Viewers initially lacked an authentic term to call the humanoid Cylons during season 1 of the series. Here on the ''Battlestar Wiki'', the descriptive term "Humano-Cylon" was used for a time. Dialogue in several episodes throughout season 2 have consistently used "Cylon agent" to describe the humanoid Cylons. Other names are also used, such as "humanoid Cylons" (which [[Tricia Helfer]] often uses in interviews, but apparently more for convenience than an official name), or "Bio-Cylons" which is sometimes used derisively by fans of the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]]. Some of the resistance fighters on Caprica refer to the Cylon agents as "skin jobs," an homage to ''[[Wikipedia:Blade Runner|Blade Runner]]''.</ref> are the quintessential [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon form]] in the [[Re-imagined Series]]. These Cylons mimic human form so completely that they are nearly undetectable to current Colonial technologies.

Cylon agents have the capacity to emulate many human physical acts, including sex. Cylon agents also display convincingly human personalities (affection, jealousy, sadness, anger, sense of humor, religiousness etc.) This behavior continues even when interacting with other Cylons outside of Colonial scrutiny, clearly establishing that their personalities are genuine.

The Cylon agents are responsible for masterminding the complete destruction of the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]] through their use of sabotage and infiltration.

==Origins==

Following the end of the [[Cylon War]] ([[Miniseries]]), nothing was heard of the Cylons in 40 years.

[[Image:Season 3 Female Cylons.jpg|thumb|150px|Numbers [[Number Six|Six]], [[Number Three|Three]], and [[Number Eight|Eight]]]]
During their forty years of isolation, the Cylons developed or evolved into a ''humanoid form''<ref>The idea of Cylons in humanoid form in ''Battlestar Galactica'' is not new. This concept appeared over 25 years earlier in the episode "[[The Night the Cylons Landed, Part I|The Night the Cylons Landed]]" in the short-lived spinoff of the Original Series, ''[[Galactica 1980]]''. Unlike the agent, however, [[Andromus]] was a Cylon [[Wikipedia:Android|android]], akin to the character of Data from ''Star Trek: The Next Generation''.</ref>.

The creators of the Cylon agent is left to speculation based on series events. While the opening credits claim that the Cylons "evolved," the concept of biological evolution (in the [[Wikipedia:Darwinism|Darwinian fashion]]) is impossible with mechanical beings. The "evolution" is obviously a planned architectural change from the mechanical to the biomechanical for the inherent Cylon design.

The original Cylon, the [[Cylon Centurion Model 0005]], a sentient robot, is likely to have had a major, if not a sole role in the creation of the agents.<ref>Information noted from the start of [[Miniseries]] (the existence of the [[Armistice Station]]) indicates that the original Cylons were not only sentient, but capable of intense emotion. [[William Adama]] confirms that the new robotic successor to the Model 0005 were built by the Cylon agents without sentience to avoid the possibility of the new [[Cylon Centurion]] from creating an overthrow attempt at their humanoid masters.</ref>

Series information shows that the Cylon agents existed in secret for at least two years prior to the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Colonies' destruction]]. This information does not provide concrete evidence as to when the first models were created and how long they have been among the human population. There is also no evidence as to whether all the 12 models were created at once or whether they were created at different times during the forty year exile.

==Physiology and Psychology==
Cylon agents are visually indistinguishable with the human form, down to the cellular level, but not completely at a molecular level. Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]] is able to create a [[Cylon detector|detector]] that can distinguish Cylon from human, but rarely used the device to a positive end ([[Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down]]).

Each Cylon agent has the same face, stature, hair, eye and skin color, gender, and other biometrics as all the others of his or her model. This point technically makes each copy a twin of itself, but there are some models that choose to make cosmetic differences. Examples include [[D'anna Biers]], [[Gina]] and a Number Six model with black hair ([[Torn]]). As well, each copy appears to start with the same basic personality, but each personality grows more distinct due to their individual experiences.

Cylon agents can be programmed as 'sleeper agents.' Sleeper agents appear to have a low-level Cylon personality that can conduct operations while placing the human sleeper personality "on-hold." [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|"Boomer" Valerii]] was one such agent ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). Most agent copies, particularly [[Number Five|Numbers Five]] [[Number Six|and Six]], assume a human persona but are fully aware of their true nature and behave more or less as a human "spy."

[[Image:Gina catatonic.jpg|thumb|left|The emotionally scarred Number Six copy known as "Gina."]]
Agents are susceptible to the same emotional traumas and clevages that their human counterparts are, further proving that personalities are a realistic part of their psyche. A case in point is a copy of Number Six, known as [[Gina]], who is physically and sexually assaulted repeatedly by the crew of ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''. These repeated assaults lead to Gina's near-catatonic state at the time ''Peagsus'' discovers [[the Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]]).

Cylon agents can dream, a process that appears to be natural to the Cylon agent<ref>A Number Three speaks casually to Doctor [[Cottle]] about her [[Dodona Selloi|prophetic dreams]] of the child [[Hera]] in "[[Exodus, Part I]]."</ref>.

Some or all Cylon "female" models may have the capacity to bear children seeded by human males ("[[33]]," "[[Flesh and Bone]]," "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]", "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]"). The Cylons tested numerous methods of sexual reproduction, yet these failed due to a known flaw in the Cylon agent design. Cylon agents cannot reproduce with each other biologically, so in an attempt to subvert this deficiency, they try to interbreed with humans, creating hybrid offspring. "[[Farms]]" were apparently set up across all the occupied Colonies where survivors, specifically, young fertile women of child-bearing age, were rounded up, placed under heavy sedation and turned into "baby machines" through artificial insemination<ref>Ron Moore said there are presumably also farms for male humans, plus in vitro experiment labs, etc.</ref>. However, this methods have been unsuccessful thus far. Another drastically different approach is taken by attempting to conceive a child through a bond of love. It seems that [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii]]'s love-child is the lone success story of the relatively short history of Cylon sexual reproduction ([[The Farm]]).

The bodies of Cylon agents sometimes appear to have tremendous stamina and strength, and appear to be designed to destroy or resist commonly dangerous human diseases<ref>The blood from [[Hera]]'s fetus destroys the cancer within [[Laura Roslin]]'s body in "[[Epiphanies]]."</ref>, although they are not immune from all contagions<ref>An infection ravages the Cylons in the episode, "[[Torn]]."</ref>. In keeping with their desire to be a better human, however, the Cylons did not or could not further improve on other characteristic design flaws of the human body.<ref>Dr. Cottle complains of birth complications with Caprica-Valerii in the episode, "[[Downloaded]]."</ref> Cylon agents are heavily fortified to resist damage from intense radiation fields that would kill a human after short exposure ([[The Passage]]), but apparently they are still susceptible to damage from [[Ragnar|certain types of radiation]] or trauma ([[Miniseries]]). Despite their resistance to certain forms of energy, Cylon agents, unlike the [[Cylon Centurion]], cannot be made "bulletproof" ("[[Precipice]]," "[[Hero]]").

The majority of the Cylons follow a [[Cylon Religion|monotheistic religion]] (with the possible exception of the [[Cavil|Cavil model]], which appears to be an atheist).

==Cybernetic Behavior==
[[Image:Valerii_optic_input.jpg|right|thumb|[[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Valerii]] interfaces with ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica's]]'' [[Computers|mainframe computer]] and communication systems by fiber-optic link]]
Upon the death of an agent's body, a Cylon agent transfers its consciousness into another copy of itself. This "[[Resurrection (RDM)|resurrection]]" is limited by distance, signal integrity, and proximity to the Cylon homeworld or a [[Resurrection Ship]] ([[Miniseries]], "[[Flesh and Bone]]," "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]").

It appears that all Cylon agents share a ''collective knowledgebase'' of data from other active or deactivated Cylon agents, regardless of their model.<ref>A collective knowledgebase works more like an internet chat forum, or even a wiki, which differs from the concept of the collective consciousness as seen in SF characters such as the Borg in ''Star Trek.'' Writers of the show have indicated this type of "hive mind" is ''not'' performed by agents. Many agents are seen describing or detailing events that one of the models experienced but did not participate, such as [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii's]] description of meeting Kara Thrace for the first time--a memory physically experienced not by that Number Eight copy, but [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|"Boomer" Valerii]], in "[[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]. When under duress, "Boomer" Valerii is able to tell [[Gaius Baltar]] the number of remaining Cylon agent agents in the Fleet. This information would be impossible to know without a collective knowledgebase to all agents ([[Resistance (episode)|Resistance]])</ref>

The psychology of Cylon agents is based on what they simply refer to as "[[projection]]." Essentially an enhanced form of a self-induced and controlled hallucination, projection is how they choose to see the world around them, in any form they wish, whenever they wish. For example, if a Cylon were standing in a hallway, they could choose to see it as a forest filled with birds, trees, and sunlight. This mode of visualization is pleasing to agents ([[Torn]])<ref>[[Gaius Baltar]]'s dreamlike interactions with his [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|virtual Number Six]] is strikingly similar to Cylon projection. See the article, [[Baltar as Cylon speculation]] for more on this issue.</ref>.

Although they cannot do so remotely or wirelessly, Cylon agents can interface with a computer system or computer network by photo-optical means. They can perform this through subdermal physical contact if required <ref>In "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]," [[Sharon Agathon|Caprica-Valerii]] connects to ''Galactica'''s computers by this method when she lacerates her arm to insert a fiber-optic cable through her left palm and into her arm.</ref> or, preferably, through a [[Cylon data port]]<ref>[[Sharon Agathon]] steals back the Fleet's [[launch key]]s by infiltrating a Cylon base by using a Cylon data port. Cylon agents are seen operating a basestar in the episode "[[Torn]]" by touching an optical pad that illuminates these arm interfaces.</ref>.

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== Known Cylon Agent Models ==
[[Image:Cylonagentdossier.jpg|right|200px]]
There are twelve models of Cylon agents ([[Miniseries]]), representing twelve personality archetypes that the Cylons have witnessed in humanity. All seven models revealed to the viewers as Cylon agents<ref>The term "Known Cylon agents" is shown on a dossier on the models shown on [[Laura Roslin]]'s desk on ''[[Colonial One]]'' in the episode "[[Epiphanies]]."</ref> have also been revealed to the central Colonial characters as of the episode, "[[Collaborators]]." The identities of the [[final five]] remaining Cylon agent models are unknown to both humanity and the seven known models.

There are many copies of each model, although the specific number of each copy (or the number of individual personalities that inhabit them) has not been specified. There appears to be no significance to any of the specific numbers assigned to the different Cylon agents, although Number Three did refer to Boomer (Eight) as "little sister" upon her download ([[Downloaded]]). <ref>On [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/ Ronald D. Moore's blog on Scifi.com], he stated that "Number Six was specifically a homage to 'The Prisoner,' but the rest [of the Cylon agents] were assigned their numbers randomly."</ref>

=== [[Number Three]] ===

[[Image:Biers Downloaded.JPG|thumb|left|Number Three]]
First seen posing as a reporter from the [[Fleet News Service]], this model was revealed to be a Cylon to viewers at the end of "[[Final Cut]]" when a second copy was shown living on Caprica. Threes seem to be the most calculating and duplicitous models shown to-date, even manupulating and deceiving other models if they feel warranted. The copy that tried to [[Boxed|box]] Sharon Valerii exhibited these characteristics strongly in the episode, "[[Downloaded]]."

This model's status as a Cylon is unknown to the Colonials until either shortly after the rescue of the surviving members of the [[Caprica Resistance]] ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]), or after the Cylon occupation of [[New Caprica]] ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]].)

A copy of this model has appeared under the name/alias "[[D'anna Biers]]."
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=== [[Number Five]] ===

[[Image:Doral.jpg|thumb|Number Five]]
This model attempts to sow the seeds of discontent or confusion, particularly during crucial life-threatening situations, and endeavors to undermine authority that threatens his objectives ([[Miniseries]]). Number Five models are more covert, assuming an ordinary "everyman" appearance that's blended in what may seem to be insignificant behind-the-scenes issues (such as converting ''Galactica'' into a museum). Of all the models thus far, the Number Five models are the most militant, fanatic and consistent in message and objectives to the Cylon objectives, whether he is dispassionately discussing the fate of humanity with his comrades or attempting to kill or maim Colonials in a suicide bomb attack ([[Litmus]]).

Viewers first meet a Number Five during a tour of ''Galactica'' with other Colonial citizens (possibly the press) as we see the battlestar for the first time at the start of the [[Miniseries]]. Viewers aren't sure of Cylon's true identity until the Miniseries' [[Miniseries, Night 2|conclusion]].

Copies of this model have appeared under the name/alias "[[Aaron Doral]]."
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=== [[Number Six]] ===

[[Image:Whiterainsix 33.JPG|thumb|left|Number Six]]
This is the first Cylon agent model shown to viewers at the start of the [[Miniseries]].

This model utilizes the human need / desire for sexual relations to her advantage. She tends to be very religious and monotheistic. Model 6 desires to know what it is to be alive. There is something inherently enigmatic about her, more so than with the other models. Sixes have been described as "usually so hardcore", referring to their tendencies towards violence.

Typically she is the alpha female, as demonstrated on multiple occasions ([[Miniseries]], [[33]], [[Water]], [[Six Degrees of Separation]]).

Copies of this model have appeared under the names/aliases "[[Shelly Godfrey]]" , "[[Gina]]", and "[[Caprica-Six|Caprica]]" (in honor of her work on Caprica towards the destruction of the Colonies).

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=== [[Number Eight]] ===

[[Image:Boomerraincoat Colonialday.JPG|thumb|Number Eight]]
Number Eight is generally a saboteur designed to infiltrate Colonial military units and is likely programmed to use any Colonial munitions to cause havoc ([[Water]]). The Number Eight model is the closest witnessed Cylon agent model to show its abilities as a soldier. This model has shown naiveté in many matters. She is apparently not as religious as other Cylon models, but has demonstrated that she can love, and is capable of being impregnated by a human ([[Six Degrees of Separation]], [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]).

She may be "defective", as the Cylon programming within the sleeper agent known as "Boomer" on ''Galactica'' conflicts multiple times with its human personality ([[Water]]). Also, the fully aware Sharon Valerii found by [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] on Caprica switches alliances from Cylon to Colonial after falling in love with Helo and aids the Colonials [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II|for a time]] (several episodes, most notably "[[Flight of the Phoenix]]"). Number Eight is the third Cylon agent introduced during the [[Miniseries]]. However, viewers do not discover her true identity until the very end of the Miniseries when a second copy of Sharon Valerii appears at [[Ragnar Anchorage]] while retrieving an abandoned copy of Number Five.

[[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Copies]] of this model have appeared under the name "[[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon Valerii]]." One copy, [[Sharon Agathon]], has defected from the Cylon and has joined the Colonial Fleet, generally replacing her "Boomer" counterpart as a [[Raptor]] pilot.
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=== [[Leoben Conoy]] ===

[[Image:CyLeo.jpg|thumb|left|Leoben Conoy]]
Leoben Conoy (Cylon agent model number unknown) was the fourth model witnessed by viewers (although viewers would not know until the end of the [[Miniseries]] that they had already seen the third introduced Cylon agent, Sharon Valerii). The Conoy model has shown to be religiously oriented and claims to be prescient on some level, using dogma and intermixing truth with falsehoods. It was first discovered on [[Ragnar Station]], claiming to be a scavenger / arms dealer ([[Miniseries]]).

The Conoy models also appear obsessed with matters of mating, bonding, and reproduction, as demonstrated by a particular agent's fascination and obsession with [[Kara Thrace]] ("[[Flesh and Bone]]," "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]," "[[Occupation]]," "[[Precipice]]," and "[[Exodus, Part II]]").

Conoy can be likened to the serpent of the [[Wikipedia:Genesis|Genesis]] tale in the Earth [[Wikipedia: Christian Bible|Christian Bible]], taunting people with knowledge then watching as the negative consequences come into devastating fruition. Leoben copies have likely been encountered by the [[Caprica Resistance]], as [[Samuel Anders]] recites in jest some comments made by another Leoben copy captured in [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] ([[Flesh and Bone]], [[The Farm]]).
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=== [[Simon]] ===

[[Image:Simon Farm2.JPG|thumb|Simon]]
The Simon model (Cylon agent model number unknown) was encountered by [[Kara Thrace|Kara "Starbuck" Thrace]] on Cylon-occupied [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]. Posing as a doctor, Simon was actually involved with the Cylon hybridization program. Simon resembles a tall, somewhat thin middle-aged black man who speaks in a comforting strong voice ([[The Farm]]) Unlike other models, Simon doesn't seem to have many military aspects to his physical or mental configuration, and was easily overcome by a wounded Thrace. Simon may be a model based primarily on human intellectualism and logic<ref>A Simon expresses the moral dilemmas of rescuing a crippled basestar as having no scientific answer in "[[Torn]]."</ref>. Simon is the only model out of the seven that has not as of yet been seen as an infiltrator in [[The Fleet]].
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=== [[Cavil]] ===

[[Image:Cyca2.jpg|thumb|left|Cavil]]
The Cavil models (Cylon agent model number unknown) posed as cynical Colonial priests in the Fleet.

Cavil models do not subscribe to the theology of the Cylon, but usually adheres to the party lines in group decisions.

In several instances, the Cavils display dark, draconian solutions to the insurgency on [[New Caprica]] that equal the militant zeal of Numbers Three and Five.
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== Speculated Infiltrators ==

:''See the [[Cylon agent speculation]] article for analysis on characters and their likelihood of being a Cylon agent, based on episode information.''

==Human/Cylon Hybrids==

Conceived by the Eight believed to be [[Sharon Agathon|Sharon Valerii]] and [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], the infant [[Hera]] is the first and only known human/Cylon hybrid<ref>These beings should not be confused with the living computer of a [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]], also called a [[Hybrid]].</ref>.

For some time Hera was hidden away from both humans and Cylons, and believed to be dead by her parents. President [[Laura Roslin]] had the baby hidden with [[Maya]] as her adoptive parent. Despite Roslin's attempts to protect the child on [[New Caprica]], Hera is now in the hands of the Cylons ([[Exodus, Part II]]).

A child, [[Kacey]], is presented by a Conoy model to [[Kara Thrace]] as an hybrid offspring purportedly created with her genetic material in the episode "[[Occupation]]". The Cylons' ruse is revealed when Kacey's human mother later claims the child ([[Exodus, Part II]]).

==Ron Moore elaborates on the twelve models==

In a 10/24/05 interview on "The Chase Show" on the SF webcast news site [http://www.thefandom.com/Article50.phtml TheFandom.com] with veteran "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" actress [[IMDB:nm0557732|Chase Masterson]], Ron D. Moore is interviewed and directly answers two key questions in the Twelve Models debate and the origin of Sharon Valerii in particular. Here is a transcription of that interview segment.

:'''Chase''': ... I just have to ask something... is there one Boomer that's just human?
:'''Ron''': No, there's not. I mean, the idea is not there was one like an original human model that they were copied from. The idea was that these were... these models of Cylon were developed out of their own study of us. The Cylons on some level looked at humanity and said, "Well, you know what, there's really only twelve of you... and these are the twelve." And then if you look at them, they kind of represent different archetypes of what humanity is. Um, Sharon, in particular — Sharon-Boomer, went through quite a trans-metamorphosis because in the original [[Miniseries]] script, in the first draft, she wasn't a Cylon at all. She was going to be just — I wrote her just — I wanted a youngish pilot, who was the rookie, who was sort of vulnerable in ways, who made mistakes in ways that you're not used to seeing your heroes on TV shows do, and I was really interested in this idea of the officer, the female officer in love with the male deck chief in violation of all the rules and I kinda thought, going forward, that she and the [[Galen Tyrol|chief]], in combination with [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]], who's really only in the [[Miniseries]] and one or two other episodes, would form sort of our family unit, that that was kind of a family...
:'''Chase''': OK...
:'''Ron''': ... and actually, after that first draft was written, it was [[David Eick]], my producing partner, who said, "You know what, if at the end of this thing, at the very end when all the Cylons walk into Armistice — into the [[Ragnar Anchorage|Ragnar station]] at the end... if you turn around and Sharon is one of the Cylons, he said, we're definitely gonna get picked up for a series.
:'''Chase''': (laughs) OK... that did make... that really did seal the deal...
:'''Ron''': ... and I just really went... that's a great idea and I realized that, because I'd had laid... I had written a story straight, I really hadn't cheated. There was no hint of who Sharon might be, and it really did suck you in, and really sort of, you believed her as a person first, and then we revealed her as a Cylon.
:'''Chase''': ... Right....
:'''Ron''': ... And so what happened after that was, I assumed going into the first season — well I didn't assume, I just planned... to slowly, over the course of the first year, peel back the layers — that Sharon would only start to sort of discover her Cylon nature by the end of the first year.
:'''Chase''': Oh, God... and it was heartbreaking, watching that unfold, because I loved her much as human, and she was just adorable, with him and then with the kid, it was like, oh, what a great girl, she's um... you know, young and cute, and — who's the actress — and that whole thing, and then you're like, WHAT?
:'''Ron''': Yeah...
:'''Chase''': ... She's the enemy...
:'''Ron''': I know then, she's the enemy, then she's the one that is your most worry, what's she gonna do next.
:'''Chase''': Yeah. You really took us on quite a journey there. I was still hoping for a human one running around somewhere, but no, huh?....
:'''Ron''': No.
:'''Chase''': Oh, well...

With this information from the show's central creative leader, it is established as canon that:

* There are precisely twelve ''human'' Cylon models. The other varieties of Cylon spacecraft or fighters are not factored into this count of 12 models.
* '''None''' of the Cylon agents were ''ever'' an actual human.
* The twelve models are based on on archetypes determined by the Cylons that form what they perceive were the specific kinds of human behavior and/or personality, distilled into twelve varieties.

== Notes ==
* A [[Cylon Centurion]] can not differentiate the differing versions of one model from another ([[Precipice]]). For example, if faced with two differing number eight models, [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|Sharon "Boomer" Valerii]] and [[Sharon Agathon]], it would not be able to discriminate between them without external aid.
* While Centurions may not be able to tell the difference between different versions of the same model, other Cylon agents do not have this problem ("[[Downloaded]]", "[[Exodus, Part I]]", "[[The Eye of Jupiter]]").
* According to [[Cavil]] in "[[Exodus, Part I]]", the pain associated with each successive [[Resurrection (RDM)|download]] is worse than the one before. The first download feels like little more than a headache, but the third feels like someone has rushed a white hot poker through the head. However, this might be a subjective feeling that varies with model and circumstances. [[Sharon Agathon]]'s report in "[[Scar]]" supports Cavil, but a [[Number Three]] considers her last download to be rejuvenating ([[Downloaded]]).
* In "[[Torn]]" [[Caprica-Six]] mentions that the Cylons do not talk about the final five Cylon agents. In the same episode [[Gaius Baltar]] confirms that during his term as President on occupied New Caprica and on the basestar he is on, he only saw the first seven models.

==References==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Cylons]]
[[Category:RDM]]

{{featured article candidate previous}}

Talk:The Eye of Jupiter/Archive3

2006-12-19T04:05:16Z

Azselendor: /* Human Nicknames */

I wonder if it has to do with that big red spot... *rollseyes* --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 18:48, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm more reminded of that Writer's Podcast thing, you know when they're saying "How many more times are we going to find an artifact like the Arrow of Apollo and have to search for them all? That feels like going back to the well too many times, I mean what are we going to say, "Athena has 10 sacred toenail clipping scattered across space, you have to find them all...?" :) --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 18:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:i'm thinking along the lines of some jewelry. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] <sup>([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])</sup> 18:57, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

::It sounds like a good plotline actually. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 19:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Merv - you just made me spill forth mein coca cola whilst reading the section about the sacred toenail clippings - thats too much for 3am on a sunday morning! Still, plot looks good, just wish Season 3 would hurry up and AIR dammit! :) --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 21:08, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
::::No, really, they make a joke about "Athena's toenail clippings" in that writer's podcast thing. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] <sup>([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])</sup> 21:12, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

I have a few possible meanings for 'eye of Jupiter' --[[User:starryniteynite|starryniteynite]]

1) Relatively obscure name for NGC 3242, a planetary nebula (A ring of illuminated gas expanding out from a sun-like star that's exhausted its fuel, and has lost its outer layers) a few thousand light years from Earth. Most astronomers call this 'the Ghost of Jupiter' instead, though some Hubble images have used this name. Its not a very unique PN (tho it has some gas streamers we can't quite explain), but it could be used as a navigational marker like M8 (the lagoon nebula). It is a very pretty nebula :)

2) "Eye of Jupiter" was the Greek/Roman name for the sun, which lead to today's 'all seeing eye' symbol of the free masons and on the pyramid in US currency

3)Adama=Zeus=Jupiter...yes, they tend to use Greek vs. Roman names, but the titles are not always consistent with this convention, and we have also seen evidence for non Greek mythological names (Isis, for example). The rest of it could be wordplay too...'eye' might refer to someone acting as Adama's eyes, rather than his eyes literally (just as 'The captain's hand refereed to Lee acting as Gardner's XO, or his hand, rather than some captain's literal hand)

4)A reference to Jupiter's big red spot, a huge hurricane-like storm on the planet's surface. Just like the "bastille Day" title, this could reference something in the episode, but not directly...they might travel through a similar storm. This has actually been done before in the miniseries, when Galactica travels into the storm at Ragnar

5) The tried and true, ancient object meaning...just like the arrow of Apollo directly references a character, but has no link to the character himself, this could just be a pretty piece of bling..

Personally, I would love #1, but only because it'd make me 2/2 for BSG objects in my thesis and I'm a total, unabashed geek. I think its probably #2, however, and they find some sort of navigational means of finding Earth (like a picture of Earth w/ distances& directions to three pulsars or very unique objects

== Duelling Sharons ==

So did anyone else get a sense of animosity/jealousy between the two Sharons? While it seems that Boomer has accepted her place amongst the Cylons and no longer considers herself a part of the humans, it also seems that she's a bit jealous of Athena's "taking her place", if you could call it that. Likewise, it also seemed that aside from her duties as a Colonial officer, Athena's refusal to let Boomer in with Adama was also somewhat out of personal distrust, ironically the same distrust of the Cylons that her fellow Colonial colleagues have.

Also, while Boomer told Athena about Hera's condition out of possible concern of the child (possible strain of humanity left in her? Cylon imperative? Or something else?), seems to me that Boomer enjoyed bursting her "sister"'s bubble on that. Talk about sibling rivalry there.

It'll be interesting to see if there will be any further Sharon vs. Sharon confrontations in the series.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 23:55, 15 December 2006 (CST)

:It was a very, very interesting dynamic. In any other show, we would have had a knock-down dragout "catfight." You hit the nail on the head. This episode was prime stuff. And, we on the wiki should be commended: our ''Galactica'' nuke count is right on the money! (Either that, or the show is using ''us'' as a source! :) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:20, 16 December 2006 (CST)

::Does that mean we can finally change the "Class-D Nuclear Warhead" to something completely different, since their nukes ''aren't'' Class-D? :P --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Image==
Let's find an image that actually occurs in this episode. Maybe the wide shot of Tyrol in the temple? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Heh which one? to me it seems the Chief was a bit wide in ALL shots ; how could he gain weight while the fleet was starving? the chief definitely deserves the Lee Adama Fat-Ass trophy --[[User:Lordmutt|lordmutt]] 03:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:Maybe it was Chief, and not Dr. Cottle, that got all of Kat's energy bars from the last ep.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 12:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Did Starbuck survive?==
Horray for the carelessness of adverts! Within ten minutes we knew the answer to that one. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Aside from that, it's going to continue the cycle of Soap Opera unease there, if Dee's the one sent to go get Starbuck back. Can't wait to see the uncomfortable stares on that one, especially if (as I suspect) Dee set up Starbuck to be the "eye in the sky" '''hoping''' the Cylons would shoot her down.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 11:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Who else was supposed to fly the mission? Looks like Lee and Kara are the only two qualified pilots on the ground and Lee is needed in overall command. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 12:34, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Too good to be true==
When we Baltar's voice over ''Galactica'''s speaker, the closed caption actually identifies him as "Cylon over speaker". I know that's not really meant to be taken as anything, but with all the speculation, it seems like a shining goof, or maybe even someone taking a good piss out of the [[Baltar as Cylon speculation|whole thing]]. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Nuking the Planet==

Does anyone else think that the nuclear missiles have the ability to be detonated remotely, before they reach their target? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 10:44, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Not to mention abort code transmissions, etc. Makes you wonder if the missiles were set for "one shot, one kill" mode, where they could not be recalled.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 11:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Or perhaps the missiles can be aborted, until they reach a critical flight time. Could make for a ''very'' tense moment or two. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:Is it just me or didn't he actually give the order to fire. He said "release of nuclear weapons is now authorized". That might sound strange, but I took that to be a preliminary order to firing. For example that now even Tigh would be able to launch them on his say --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 15:03, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::No, you're correct on that; essentially all they were doing was opening the "barn doors". I was discussing the hypotheticals of the missiles, if they should be launched in the next ep.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 19:33, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== WTF moment ==

I was on the [[Karl Agathon]] page, updating it for this ep's news, when I came across [[:Image:Valley_of_Darkness-Starbuck_Helo.jpg|this old picture]]. Considering how Kara's painting looks and that she's religious (though not indoctrinated in any sort of clerical form, unlike Chief Tyrol's parentage), does anyone think that (in hindsight), this may have been a hint to the Eye itself?--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 12:37, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: It actually makes a lot of sense... Taking Zeus to mean Admiral Adama, and that Kara Thrace is the go-to pilot for reconnaissance missions, AND the paintings on the walls, we have a plausible theory in the works! <small>—The preceding '''unsigned''' comment was added by {{User|Alcibiades}}.</small>
: Are you kidding me?! They set this episode up a year ago! --[[User:Galactageek|Galactageek]] 19:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)
: I find it pretty hard to believe too, but that painting ''really really really'' looks like the art in the temple. --[[User:Saforrest|Saforrest]] 20:41, 16 December 2006 (CST)
::Maybe they though it would be a nice idea to take that painting, put it in the Temple more than a season later, and see if we notice. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== 18 Casualties & Relevance to "The Passage" ==

If 18 people were lost from '''The Passage''' episode, that means that 17 (at most) were aboard those two lost civilian ships, right? I'm only bringing this up to clarify what transpired — from that, and what we saw, the Raptors would pair up with a civilian ship, and that ship's passenger complement would be transferred onto ''Galactica'' (more heavily shielded, combat FTL drive) for the ferry run through the cluster. The civilian ship would then be crewed by an absolute bare minimum number of crewers. Then, when the group reached the other side of the cluster, the passengers would be transported back to their ships (if they survived the passage), the ships would remain at "Algae-planet", and ''Galactica'' would turn around and go back to the original side to repeat the cycle over again for a new group of civilian ships?

Am I reading/viewing this right? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 13:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:The ships were manned by skeleton crews. That was even mentioned in "The Passage" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 14:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)

: Don't forget that 14 days have transpired. there could have been more births in the fleet. I just came up with the difference from the two episodes--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:10, 16 December 2006 (CST)

== Humanoid Cylons recognize each other on sight ==

While back on New Craprica, Number 3 knew right away that it was Sharon Agathon. Of course, who else would be trying to remove the ship's launch keys?

This episode, we see that Athena knew on sight that this Number Eight was Boomer. Interesting.

Can Cylons tell on sight which of the copies they are? It's already established that the bulletheads can't.

Note in last weeks episode, Baltar was able to pick The D'anna number three out of the hallway on sight, even though there is an identically dressed number three in the same hallway. [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 16:50, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Those two instances do prove that they do recognize one another, which was hinted at in the "[[Cylon Agent]]" page. I guess now it's more than a hint. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:54, 16 December 2006 (CST)

==Names of marines==
Has anyone heard (or seen in close captions) the names of the marines that were with Starbuck and Dualla? I know one of them is [[Fischer]], but the other three? I heard something like: Criggs, Verek, Ditko. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]] 17:43, 16 December 2006 (CST)

:According to the caption, it's Griggs and Varrick; the spelling/pronouncation of the third lad is anyone else's guess. For some reason, the closed caption for this episode doesn't pick up everything for me. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:48, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== Location of the Eye? ==

At the end of the episode, Tyrol says something about "the sky will open, and the eye will be revealed." Did that make anyone else think of the star going nova? -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 22:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
:Good idea, but is it possible that such a "blowup" could be predicted in the sacred scrolls thousands of years ago? -- [[User:SuperMMX|SuperMMX]] 01:15, 17 December 2006 (CST)
::Why not? A race of humans capable of traveling from Kobol to Earth probably knows at least as much about stellar evolution as the Colonials [[User:Xenophon10k|Xenophon10k]] 07:39, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: The [[Sacred Scrolls]] have so far contained information about [[Laura Roslin]] being sick, [[Sharon Agathon]] helping them to find the [[Tomb of Athena]], and more... In addition to various prophetic dreams... Sure, they could have predicted it. -- [[User:Benabik|Benabik]] 11:26, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:When Tyrol commented about blowing up the Temple, I already thought "What if the Eye is INSIDE the pillar and they have to blow it up to get it out?" But surely an explosion destroying the entire system would destroy the Eye as well? And if it didn't, the Eye would not be easy to find between the debris of an entire planet. But blowing up a pillar doesn't exactly qualify as "the sky will open"... Maybe it refers to blowing up the roof or something like that... --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 12:04, 17 December 2006 (CST)
:: Note the shaft of light streaming across the central pillar in the final scenes of the episode. Perhaps something will be revealed when it becomes centered upon the prominent symbol seen there. --[[User:Spidey3|Spidey3]] 12:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::That was the way my mind was working. --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 14:39, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Boomer in the brig? ==

Did Boomer get thrown in the galactica brig once Athena pointed her out? Was she allowed to return to the Basestars? [[User:Bstone|Bstone]] 01:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

I doubt it because they probably would have it done right there rather than holding her outside first. I'm sure they let her leave with the others and advised her not to let the door hit on the arse on the way out. --[[User:Mars|Mars]] 09:46, 17 December 2006 (CST)

:Besides, the least thing they need on ''Galactica'' right now would be Boomer to break out of the brig, throw on a uniform and have a "Guess the Sharon" contest. Aside from that, I expect that kind of trite plotwork I just mentioned from lesser sci-fi series, not this one.--<font color="#4b0082">[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]</font> <font color="#2f4f4f">''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''</font> 19:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Summary ==

We really need a longer summary up there, the only point it currently mentions is kind of random -_- --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:58, 17 December 2006 (CST)

== D'anna's search for the five vs. the Temple of Five ==

I haven't seen much discussion on the connection between "the five" Cylons and the Temple of the Five. Since the Temple was built by the 13th tribe, a connection doesn't seem likely in a conventional linear timeline; but like the painting in Starbuck's apartment, it's hard to dismiss as a mere coincidence.

Such a connection does, however, clear up some verisimilitude issues for me – namely, the rate at which the Cylon's biological technology advanced in relation to both Cylon and Colonial conventional technology.

In less than 40 years' time, the Cylons were able to develop the Cylon Agents – and in such a way that made indiscernable from humans – and all of the ressurection technology that went with it. Meanwhile, their conventional, mechanical technology hasn't made nearly the same leaps. And Colonial technology hasn't advanced much at all. Pegasus was a much more formidable vessel than Galactica, but only in terms of size and firepower. Technologically speaking, they weren't that dissimilar. Everyone's still using nuclear missles as their most advanced form of weaponry.

Clearly, the Cylons have had a little help. Now, with dual references to a group of five that must not be named, we're starting to get an idea of from where that help may have come.

I'm not sure how that jibes with the Cylon's monotheistic religion (also established within those 40 years), versus the Colonies' polytheism, but I'm sure Mr.Moore has it worked out.

How great it is to have a show with a fleshed out story line already established, as opposed to the "make it up as we go" approach to shows like Star Trek (all incarnations), X-Files and Lost over our last 40 years. {{unsigned|Tylonius}}

:To ''Battlestar's'' credit, it did take a while to flesh out the story from a viewer's perspective, but what we know is quite intriguing. Their God and the Colonial gods may be one and the same, and may change how the Cylons treat the Colonials and vice versa. I don't think the five faces will be all shown, but we might see one. And yes, it is good to enjoy a show that makes a greater effort to maintain a consistent storyline. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:01, 18 December 2006 (CST)

== Human Nicknames ==
I cropped the following from the episode summary. Nothing against either point, just taking it off until somebody can figure out how to reconcile it into a single level deep bullet point (or points).
Cropped text:
*This is the first time the Cylons use "human" names on the basestar when not speaking to Baltar. D'Anna is named by Caprica-Six and another Number Three. Cavil's name is used by D'Anna.
**It is possible that these names are nicknames for the Cylons who've been amongst the humans (much like Caprica-Six), but it could also be the writers weaseling out of coming up with numbers for Cavil, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]] and [[Simon]]. In ''[[The Passage]]'', D'Anna even mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons".
Thanks. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:51, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Err how about:
*This episode marks the first time the Cylons use "human" names when not speaking to Baltar: Caprica-Six and another Three call D'Anna by her human name, who in turn uses Cavil's name. These could be nicknames for Cylons who've been living among humans (cf. [[Caprica-Six]]).
*Once again, the writers have dodged the issue of [[Cavil]]'s, [[Leoben Conoy|Leoben]]'s and [[Simon]]'s numbers. In "[[Torn]]", Caprica-Six says "The ones you know as Leoben...", in "[[The Passage]]" Number Three mentions having a discussion with "one of the Simons" and in this episode a Three simply calls one of the Cavils "Cavil".

Please correct my style here, I didn't know exactly how to quote/paraphrase things like "one of the Simons" etc. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 09:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

:One bullet point might be enough if the second part is connected with a word like "thus". However we shouldn't use "weasling". It sounds too negative and critical where criticism isn't really needed. Maybe something like "dodging the issue" or "circumventing"? That means the same and isn't as POV.
:Btw: episode names aren't italicized, but put in quotation marks --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:12, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Edit first post, episode titles quoted instead of italicized, second bullet point reprashed and "weaseling" changed to "dodged".
I don't think joining the bullet points with "this" between them is going to make this any clearer. I also don't think it's necessary, as both points may be related but analyse different things (the remaining numbers vs. Cylon naming convention). --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 10:28, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:I think the writers are working with established names for convenience. They may not want to create a number yet to not confuse some viewers or there may be a grand scheme of introducing more numbers later in the season or another season that involves the 5 unknown cylon models. They could be maintaining flexibility for themselves in this case. They also know that the people who care the most are us die-hard fans and they can drag us through the mud without giving us more info, but I don't think so with as generous and courteous as Ngarenn is on BW:OC.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 11:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::It wouldn't be too hard to introduce a new number though. We've heard plenty of statements like "We Threes think we can't take the risk.", ideal statements to introduce new numbers with. Of course these numbers aren't a big deal, but die-hard fans tend to like to know these details. --[[User:Catrope|Catrope]] 11:37, 18 December 2006 (CST)
:::True. Though the more detail the introduce, the more chances they have to get it wrong. Even with the few model numbers we have revealed RDM sometimes has [[Podcast:The_Passage#Act_1|difficulty keeping them straight]], confusing the Eight's (Sharons) with the Three's (D'annas). Either way, we'll be here, documenting. I sometimes wonder if we're (the die-hard detail documenters) aren't his worst nightmares (if we even bothers thinking about us). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:52, 18 December 2006 (CST)
::::I always thought it was a nice nod to buckaroo banzai where all the villains had the same first name. [[User:Azselendor|Azselendor]] 22:05, 18 December 2006 (CST)