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Dirty Hands

2007-02-27T06:29:38Z

Antagonist: /* Noteworthy Dialogue */

{{Episode Data
| title= Dirty Hands
| image= 3x16-DirtyHands-TyrolSelix.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 16
| guests=
| writer= [[Anne Cofell Saunders]] [[Jane Espenson]]
| story=
| director= [[Wayne Rose]]
| production= 316
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-02-25
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population=41,400
| prev=[[A Day in the Life]]
| next=[[Maelstrom]]
| itunes=http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/stat?id=VWbyALbmqZY&offerid=78941&type=3&subid=0&tmpid=1826&RD_PARM1=http%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZStore.woa%252Fwa%252FviewTVSeason%253Fi%253D215973805%2526id%253D200852806%2526s%253D143441%2526partnerId%253D30
}}

== Overview ==

: ''Amidst unsafe and harsh conditions in the maintenance and production areas of the Fleet, as well [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]]'s [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|personal diatribe]] stirring feelings of dissent amongst the working class, Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] must wrestle whether or not to resurrect the worker's union he began on [[New Caprica]].''

== Summary ==
===Teaser===

*A group of deckhands, with Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] at the head, are prepping [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack's]] [[Raptor]] for a mission.
*Tyrol reminds [[Anthony Figurski|Figurski]], [[Pollux]] and [[Sanchez]] not to leave as they have to work on additional engine refits. A number of deckhands, one literally missing a hand and using a prosthetic arm, are busy with their work. Complaints about fatigue are deflected by Tyrol.
*Viewers see [[tylium]] fuel, refined from its ore state into a gasoline-like liquified state, being pumped into the Raptor.
*[[Diana Seelix|Seelix]] is returning bags of cleaned laundry to Figurski, Pollux, and [[Redford]]. She's not too happy as, despite high marks on the written exam for [[Viper (RDM)|Viper pilot]] flight training, Seelix has been denied promotion because she was considered to have mission-essential duties and could not be transferred. Pollux is left surprised, believing that others don't want the "knuckledraggers" to rise in rank.
*Tyrol, who heard about the failed promotion from the [[CAG]], apologizes to Seelix. Figurski teases too much about Seelix's fate and her unglamorous laundry work, which causes Seelix to attack Figurski before Chief Tyrol breaks it up. Seelix goes back to laundry delivery, obviously depressed in spite of Tyrol's attempt to have her look at her work on the [[hangar deck]] as critical to the Fleet's safety.
*Racetrack and [[Skulls]], her [[ECO]], launch from the lift from the hangar deck to the port [[flight pod]]. They fly through the motley of civilian ships and begin plotting their course, passing the [[Space Park]], when a malfunction occurs in the reaction control jets and one of the main engines. The vehicle is out of control.
*Racetrack yells for Skulls to sit in the copilot seat and moments later, both eject from the wayward vehicle. The Raptor tumbles on a collision course with ''[[Colonial One]]'' at the same area of the ship where President [[Laura Roslin]] and [[Tory Foster]] are handling their daily business.

=== Act 1 ===
*Admiral [[William Adama]] is assisting President Roslin with moving her office area to another section of ''Colonial One'' while the damaged bulkhead of the ship is repaired. The presidential flagship suffered only a glancing blow from Racetrack's Raptor, but hit with sufficient force to cause a dozen injuries, including to Tory Foster. No one was killed, fortunately.
*When Roslin notes the cramped confines, Adama offers Roslin any of his beds on ''[[Galactica]]''. A moment of humorous silence hangs as Adama realizes the unintended double-meaning and Roslin smiles.
*The two leaders of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] discuss the cause of the Raptor's malfunction. So far, the investigation suggests a fuel contamination problem. Roslin finds the matter unsettling since, before, the refinery ship was always reliable and timely.
*The leaders discuss [[Xeno Fenner]], who has complained about numerous labor-related problems despite the overall significance of the overall survival of humanity. Adama is impatient with Fenner's effectiveness over the last two weeks and wants to get the Fleet back on its path to [[Earth]].
*Roslin, who [[Home, Part II|began the serious quest for Earth]], can't resist teasing Adama, a [[Home, Part I|skeptic about the legends of Earth]] despite his claims of [[Miniseries, Night 2|knowing where it was]]. Adama plays along with Roslin, asking "Have I ever doubted it?"
*Fenner meets with President Roslin and Admiral Adama. Fenner complains of exhaustion, very long shift hours and other problems that go unheeded throughout his operation by the senior staff. Adama reminds Fenner that, because of the backlog of fuel processing and distribution between the ships of the Fleet, they have fuel for maybe one or two [[FTL|jumps]]. Both leaders warn that safety is in danger and that fuel resupply is imperative.
*Fenner questions if intentionally causing a slowdown or other problems with the fuel processing would yield some results.
*When Fenner quotes a passage from an underground book written by [[Gaius Baltar]] to reinforce his case ("If you hear the people, you never have to fear the people") Roslin is incensed by the quote and has the [[marine]]s in the room arrest Fenner.
*Roslin explains to Adama that Baltar's lawyer had snuck out the book, called ''[[My Triumphs, My Mistakes]]'', which has been copied about the Fleet. Roslin and Adama discuss how it is causing class strife throughout the Fleet. A visibly angered Roslin, her voice quieting to almost a whisper in her usual manner when in such a state, says, "I am thinking of having a good old-fashioned book burning."
*In their quarters, the Tyrols are having a meal. [[Cally Tyrol]] adminishes her husband from eating too much, recalling their recovery from [[A Day In The Life|vacuum exposure]] and apparent diet requirements to aid in it.
*The two eventually discuss the recent labor problems. Cally, reciting passages from Baltar's book, notes how work throughout the Fleet is divided by class lines, which also happen to be related to how work was culturally based on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]]. Prosperous colonists from Caprica, Tauron and Virgon were mostly in administrative or professional jobs such as politicians and pilots, while colonists from places such as Gemenon, Sagittaron, and Aerelon, which were agrarian or otherwise raw-material sources, had primarily blue-collar populations. When Galen comments that [[Anastasia Dualla|Lieutenant Dualla]] was from Sagittaron, Cally answers that she was promoted only because of her [[Lee Adama|husband's Caprica status]].
*Chief Tyrol gets a call from Admiral Adama, who tells him of Fenner's arrest for "pissing off the President." Adama orders him to get to the refinery ship and get the fuel supply running. Cally recalls the old union on [[New Caprica]] and that, while the scenery has changed, the people who desired change in then-President Baltar's leadership were still around.
*Roslin visits Gaius Baltar with marine contingent, intent on confiscating any further passages of his clandestine book. She lies to Baltar, telling him that the book was intercepted before it could be mass-produced, and that was dying to read the latest entries. Roslin objects to Baltar's portrayal as a "man of the people" in his book.
*She forces a strip search of Baltar before his [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|virtual Six]] convinces him to give up the passages to save his dignity.
*Tyrol arrives to investigate the refinery ship's operation and meets with Cavett. Cavett remembers Tyrol's work as the union leader. Cavett shows him a large cavernous room with a single comparatively small pile of tylium in its center. When asked about the amount of tylium available, Cavett notes that the Fleet would be lucky to get out of this system.
*Cavett notes that the ship is as loud as an "A-bomb" when in full production, and as equally safe.
*The conditions are squalid at best, as many workers move the granular tylium through its conversion process from ore to precursor and fuel. The working conditions are less of the problem, as workers are tired and have very little time off. Work is going much too slowly, and Cavett reminds Tyrol of the harsh work schedules that have greatly reduced fuel production.
*The group enters a conveyor area, where many workers appear to be cleaning or making minor repairs. The refining process appears to have stopped. Despite Cavett's pleas, Tyrol asks him to stop up the process. A laborer named [[Milo]] tells Tyrol that the system won't work. When pressed as to the reason, Milo is silent.
*Tyrol looks around to find that several critical pressure relief seals are missing, making the machinery unusable. The workers have intentionally hidden the seals as a protest for Fenner's arrest and an attempt to get improved working conditions.
*Later, on ''Galactica'', Tyrol reports to Admiral Adama and Roslin on his initial investigations on the refinery ship. A search has not turned up the seals. Since the group did not harm him or have contaminated the existing fuel, he believes that the workers are buying time to get their pleas heard.
*He notes that some of the people on the refinery ship have been working almost continuously since the original [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack on the Colonies]] with no chance to transfer or take a break.
*Roslin acknowledges the hard work, but notes that work is equally hard on the algae processing, or munitions or waste processing teams. When Tyrol asks to cede to some labor demands to get things working again, Roslin objects, calling it extortion, and asks for the names of the leaders to put them under arrest, which Tyrol reluctantly notes Cavett. Roslin curtly dismisses Tyrol when he tries to continue his pleas.

===Act 2===
*Tyrol visits Fenner and Cavett. Cavett, who was incarcerated on New Caprica by the Cylons, is experiencing hallucinations and is injuring himself. Tyrol asks for the seals, to Fenner's anger.
*Tyrol yells at both to tell him where, when Fenner relents and tells the location of the seals.
*The seals are replaced. Milo asks to flip the switch. Tyrol asks Milo's age: 12. The production resumes. Tyrol looks around to see many very young faces; many of the refinery workers are children and adolescents.
*On ''Colonial One'', Tyrol explains that the parents are passing down their skills to their children, and that the children are thus automatically stuck in their parent's careers instead of choosing an own path for their future. Roslin understands the problem, and offers to gather a list of colonists with any relevant experience that can be used to supplement the workers on the refinery ship.
*A young man named [[Danny Noon]], pulled from [[Dogsville]], questions Tyrol on the hangar deck on why he is tasked to work on the refinery ship. As Figurski tells Tyrol of the young man's farming experience, Noon denies any actual experience, having worked for one summer for money for college before the Cylon attack on the Colonies. Before Tyrol can consider reassigning the man, Figurski warns that letting the young man go may cause more to deny their experience as well, setting back the conscription process. Tyrol does not interfere.
*As Tyrol walks away, he finds a copy of Baltar's underground manifesto. Turning the page, he notes one page entitled "The Emerging Aristocracy and the Emerging Underclass." He decides to go to Baltar.
*Interviewing Baltar (who now knows that his book has circulated), Tyrol tries to separate fact from fiction. Baltar (now possessing only a mattress on the floor, with no bed frame) explains that he is really born on a dairy farm outside of [[Cuffle's Breath Wash]] on Aerelon. When Tyrol questions further, particularly Baltar's posh accent, Baltar explains (as he begins to speak in his native Aerelon voice) that he began to mimic Caprican speech starting at 10 years old so that people would not believe he was from Aerelon, a "drab, ugly rock condemned to be the food basket for the twelve worlds." Baltar left Aerelon after his 18th birthday.
*When Tyrol indicates that the strife was left on the Colonies and begins to leave the [[brig]], Baltar disagrees, indicating that the social strife has followed the people, and that the aristocracy will continue to hold on to their power.

===Act 3===
*The fresh labor on the refinery ship is helping and tylium ore is again being refined, per Fenner. He notes that some problems in the process was where the contaminants were accumulating and that work is being done to clean up the process.
*A malfunction occurs on the refinery ship conveyor, but Fenner warns that the belt has to be repaired while running, else, shutting it down will seize the whole system. Worse, not fixing the problem soon could cause an explosive chain reaction with the ore stuck in the system.
*Tyrol tries to get the problem part, but can't reach it. Danny Noon manages to reach underneath to restore the belt to operation but suffers a piercing injury as he exits from under the belt.
*Watching this suffering becomes too much for Tyrol. He slowly walks over to the belt systems main power levers and pulls them, shutting down the entire fuel operation. He tells everyone that the plant is offline and that the workers are on strike.
*Several pilots, including [[Kara Thrace]], are trying to get a flight, but Pollux tells them that they are on strike, and that only vital missions are being serviced.
*Chief Tyrol is arrested in placed in ''Galactica's'' brig. Admiral Adama tells him that the Colonial Fleet shoots mutineers like Tyrol and the deckhands.

===Act 4===
*Tyrol tries to explain his side, but Adama warns that no one on this ship can disobey orders. To prove how far he will go, he makes a phone call.
*Adama orders Cally Tyrol to be taken to the starboard hangar deck. When the Chief asks why, Adama tells him he is taking her there to be shot as a mutineer. He then states that he will continue with the executions, starting with the rebellious deck crew, if he has to.
*Tyrol is terrified, but Adama continues to elaborate: Orders, no matter how one feels about them, must be adhered to. If even one person hesitates to fulfill an order or feels that orders are optional, everyone will perish, including Tyrol's [[Nicholas Tyrol|son]]. Adama tells him that this is not his desire, but that he would put ten Callys against the wall to be shot to ensure the survival of the Fleet.
*Tyrol resigns. Adama releases him and lets him speak to Cally, who mistakenly believes that Tyrol has won. Adama releases her. Adama releases the Chief as well, reminding him that he wanted to speak with the President on the labor issues.
*On ''Colonial One'', Tyrol and President Roslin talk over drinks about the cultural vocations that some colonists are locked into by birth, which Roslin understands but cannot see how to change. Tyrol suggests a plan where other colonists, including professional types who inhabit ''Colonial One,'' get their hands dirty with many tasks, allowing some sharing of low-level chores. For high-stress jobs, Tyrol recommends that crew rotations are recommended. Roslin agrees.
*Tyrol recommends a training program, but Roslin defers it and wants Tyrol's union to give some ground in collective bargaining. When Tyrol is confused about the mention of a union he believed long gone, Roslin explains the necessity of the union and his leadership to ensure that the Fleet doesn't tear itself apart.
*Later, back on the hangar deck, Chief Tyrol is announcing work assignments when Captain Thrace arrives to complain about a missing [[nugget]] who did not report for training. She asks for Diana Seelix, who is both visibly confused and excited.
* After berating Seelix for not checking the duty roster to see where she should have reported, Thrace then tells her that she is "out of uniform". Tyrol, in on the ruse, states that he can fix that part of the problem and presents Seelix with ensign pins, promoting her to the basic officer's rank needed to train as a pilot.
*Thrace continues to play the nasty drill officer and orders the smiling Seelix off to the pilots ready room. Thrace herself cracks a smile as Tyrol asks her to "be nice" to her new recruit.

===Bonus Scene===
*Chief Tyrol has finished sorting out a handful of children who were mistakenly picked in the pool of conscripts to aid on the refinery ship. He returns to his quarters to pick up some paperwork.
*Cally Tyrol notes that most of the conscripts are from poor colonies, and that the work involved actually doesn't involve any genuine skills. She noticed that no one from ''Colonial One'' was in the list of conscripts.
*Galen berates Cally for what he feels is yet another recitation from Gaius Baltar's book. He warns her that, if he pushes too hard with the Fleet's leadership, they may pull him off of the assignment of assigning conscripts, where someone like Colonel [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] may be ordered to manage, with more dire results for everyone.
*Cally tries to encourage her husband to continue fighting for the rights of the workers as he did as the union leader on [[New Caprica]]. As she continues to press for his support, he tells her that the New Caprica union is over and leaves without further discussion.

== Questions ==
* Will Baltar's book help his image among the working class of the [[the Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] in his upcoming trial?
* Is it possible that [[Tom Zarek]] somehow assisted Baltar in the writing and distribution of his book?
* Has [[the Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]]'s [[tylium]] reserve been re-stocked at all since "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]"?
* Have these class differentiations amongst the colonies been problematic before the destruction of the Twelve Colonies?
* Besides occupations that are related to the "working class" and other professions such as news reporters, what other occupations exist within the fleet besides those positions found on ''Colonial One'' and ''Galactica''?
* Have the Colonials truly lost the Cylons or are the Cylons continuing on different plans?
* Why wasn't [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] mentioned along with [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] as another member of the "working class" that rose to be part of the Fleet leadership as he was born on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]] and started his career as an enlisted man?
* Besides Baltar's testimony, is there any real solid evidence that Baltar was born on Aerelon?
* With the information provided by "[[Unfinished Business]]" and "[[A Day in the Life]]", have the attitude and admiration towards Admiral Adama changed significantly to the point that his crew feel more indifferent or resentful of him?
* Besides the six Colonies that were mentioned, how were the other colonies, such as Picon considered?

== Analysis ==
* Not having any real options for defending his actions during the Cylon occupation of New Caprica, Baltar has opted to use class warfare as a distraction from the real issues and to drum up support as a victim of "the aristocracy". His booklet appears to inspired by classic Marxist/Leninist rhetoric. Historically, such approaches to political change and power are most effective when conditions are unacceptable and dangerous for large numbers of workers.
* Adama's explanation and pending orders to execute Cally and the rest of the knuckledraggers to force Tyrol to call off the strike is reminiscent of the style of leadership found with Admiral Cain. However, once Tyrol relented and called off the strike, Adama immediately displayed his familiar style of leadership by informing Tyrol of his meeting with Roslin.
* This is the first time that an emergency cockpit ejection from a Raptor is shown during the series.
* Ever since her murder of Boomer and following detention and eventual release, Cally has displayed an attitude of disrespect towards the Fleet leadership, especially to Adama recently. Her recent demeanor and naive assumption that Adama would not do anything more than arrest the strikers may highlight a growing problem amongst the military workers that are beginning to dissent from the leadership.
* This episode, as well as "[[The Woman King]]" display an ongoing theme since Season 2 that focuses on how human beings are self-destructive by nature without any Cylon intervention. As was stated in "[[A Day In The Life]]", the Fleet hadn't encountered any Cylon forces for approximately 2 months. This state of complacency has allowed the typical in-fighting amongst the colonials to resume, especially with the depreciating state of quality of life amongst the ships in the fleet.

== Notes ==

* A number of main characters are not present at all during this episode: [[Lee Adama]], [[Sharon Agathon]], [[Karl Agathon]], [[Saul Tigh]], [[Felix Gaeta]], and [[Anastasia Dualla]].
* According to [[Bradley Thompson]], this episode was originally a different story titled "Our Enemies, Ourselves". When developing "[[The Woman King]]", it was felt that both episodes dealt with the same themes. As a result, "Dirty Hands" was created instead.
* The [[w:79th Academy Awards|79th Academy Awards]] were shown during the episode. The ratings should be taken ''lightly''.
* The prop department still hasn't produced any Ensign [[Military Ranks (RDM)|rank insignia]] yet. Like in "[[Scar]]", Lieutenant j.g. insignia are used instead.
* Cally is still dealing with the injuries she sustained in "[[A Day in the Life]]".
* One of the deckhands has lost an arm, but is using a prosthesis to work.
* [[Dogsville]] is still in use.
* Baltar reveals that he is allegedly from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]]. He displays his native accent, traces of which he claimed to have heard in Sharon Valerii's voice in "[[Flesh and Bone]]".

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

* ''[[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] talking to [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] about his [[My_Triumphs%2C_My_Mistakes|Book:]]''
: '''Baltar''': I don't sound like I'm from [[Aerelon|Aerelon]]?
: '''Tyrol''': No
: '''Baltar''': Well you know I take that as a particular complement. I don't know about you, but I've always found the Aerelon dialact to be particularly hard on the ears.
:''Baltar begins speaking with an Aerelon accent''
: '''Baltar''': Something about the consonates that scrape the back of the throat. Course I should know an aweful lot about my native tongue, I spent hours on it in trying to overcome it. Do you have any idea how hard it is for a ten year old boy to change the way he speaks? To unlearn everything he ever learned, so that one day, one day there might be the small hope that he might be considered as not commin' from Aerelon.
:''Baltar speaks with his usual accent''
: '''Baltar''': Maybe I don't know, Caprica... Caprica... oh to be Caprican, the seat of politics, culture, art, science, learning. And what was Aerelon, just a drab ugly rock condemned to be the food basket for the twelve worlds, and thats how we were treated, like servants, like labourers, like working-class. You know you would have fitted right in there Chief, lots of men who like to work with their hands, and uh, grab a pint down at the pub and...
:''Baltar again speaks with his Aerelon accent''
: '''Baltar''': ...finish off the evenin' with a good old fashioned fight.
:''Baltar returns to speaking as he normally does''
: '''Baltar''': Oh yes, I left Aerelon after my eighteenth birthday, I turned my back on my family, my heritage, all of them, of course it doesn't matter though, they're all dead now...

== Official Statements ==
Jane Espenson, in an interview with tvsquad.com, made the following remark: "The episode, co-written with Anne Cofell Saunders, is called 'Dirty Hands,' and as you might guess, it's a look at the people who do the dirty work in the fleet. Knuckle-dragging fun!" <ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/06/jane-espenson-answers-your-battlestar-questions/|title=TV Squad: Jane Espenson answers your Battlestar questions|date=6 December 2006|accessdate=11 December 2006|last=McDuffee|first=Keith|format=|language=English}}</ref>

== Guest Stars ==
*[[David Patrick Green]] as [[Xeno Fenner]]

== External Links ==

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Anne Cofell Saunders]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Jane Espenson]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Wayne Rose]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Dirty Hands

2007-02-27T06:25:53Z

Antagonist:

{{Episode Data
| title= Dirty Hands
| image= 3x16-DirtyHands-TyrolSelix.jpg
| season= 3
| episode= 16
| guests=
| writer= [[Anne Cofell Saunders]] [[Jane Espenson]]
| story=
| director= [[Wayne Rose]]
| production= 316
| rating=
| US airdate= 2007-02-25
| UK airdate=
| dvd=
| population=41,400
| prev=[[A Day in the Life]]
| next=[[Maelstrom]]
| itunes=http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/stat?id=VWbyALbmqZY&offerid=78941&type=3&subid=0&tmpid=1826&RD_PARM1=http%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZStore.woa%252Fwa%252FviewTVSeason%253Fi%253D215973805%2526id%253D200852806%2526s%253D143441%2526partnerId%253D30
}}

== Overview ==

: ''Amidst unsafe and harsh conditions in the maintenance and production areas of the Fleet, as well [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]]'s [[My Triumphs, My Mistakes|personal diatribe]] stirring feelings of dissent amongst the working class, Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] must wrestle whether or not to resurrect the worker's union he began on [[New Caprica]].''

== Summary ==
===Teaser===

*A group of deckhands, with Chief [[Galen Tyrol]] at the head, are prepping [[Margaret Edmondson|Racetrack's]] [[Raptor]] for a mission.
*Tyrol reminds [[Anthony Figurski|Figurski]], [[Pollux]] and [[Sanchez]] not to leave as they have to work on additional engine refits. A number of deckhands, one literally missing a hand and using a prosthetic arm, are busy with their work. Complaints about fatigue are deflected by Tyrol.
*Viewers see [[tylium]] fuel, refined from its ore state into a gasoline-like liquified state, being pumped into the Raptor.
*[[Diana Seelix|Seelix]] is returning bags of cleaned laundry to Figurski, Pollux, and [[Redford]]. She's not too happy as, despite high marks on the written exam for [[Viper (RDM)|Viper pilot]] flight training, Seelix has been denied promotion because she was considered to have mission-essential duties and could not be transferred. Pollux is left surprised, believing that others don't want the "knuckledraggers" to rise in rank.
*Tyrol, who heard about the failed promotion from the [[CAG]], apologizes to Seelix. Figurski teases too much about Seelix's fate and her unglamorous laundry work, which causes Seelix to attack Figurski before Chief Tyrol breaks it up. Seelix goes back to laundry delivery, obviously depressed in spite of Tyrol's attempt to have her look at her work on the [[hangar deck]] as critical to the Fleet's safety.
*Racetrack and [[Skulls]], her [[ECO]], launch from the lift from the hangar deck to the port [[flight pod]]. They fly through the motley of civilian ships and begin plotting their course, passing the [[Space Park]], when a malfunction occurs in the reaction control jets and one of the main engines. The vehicle is out of control.
*Racetrack yells for Skulls to sit in the copilot seat and moments later, both eject from the wayward vehicle. The Raptor tumbles on a collision course with ''[[Colonial One]]'' at the same area of the ship where President [[Laura Roslin]] and [[Tory Foster]] are handling their daily business.

=== Act 1 ===
*Admiral [[William Adama]] is assisting President Roslin with moving her office area to another section of ''Colonial One'' while the damaged bulkhead of the ship is repaired. The presidential flagship suffered only a glancing blow from Racetrack's Raptor, but hit with sufficient force to cause a dozen injuries, including to Tory Foster. No one was killed, fortunately.
*When Roslin notes the cramped confines, Adama offers Roslin any of his beds on ''[[Galactica]]''. A moment of humorous silence hangs as Adama realizes the unintended double-meaning and Roslin smiles.
*The two leaders of the [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] discuss the cause of the Raptor's malfunction. So far, the investigation suggests a fuel contamination problem. Roslin finds the matter unsettling since, before, the refinery ship was always reliable and timely.
*The leaders discuss [[Xeno Fenner]], who has complained about numerous labor-related problems despite the overall significance of the overall survival of humanity. Adama is impatient with Fenner's effectiveness over the last two weeks and wants to get the Fleet back on its path to [[Earth]].
*Roslin, who [[Home, Part II|began the serious quest for Earth]], can't resist teasing Adama, a [[Home, Part I|skeptic about the legends of Earth]] despite his claims of [[Miniseries, Night 2|knowing where it was]]. Adama plays along with Roslin, asking "Have I ever doubted it?"
*Fenner meets with President Roslin and Admiral Adama. Fenner complains of exhaustion, very long shift hours and other problems that go unheeded throughout his operation by the senior staff. Adama reminds Fenner that, because of the backlog of fuel processing and distribution between the ships of the Fleet, they have fuel for maybe one or two [[FTL|jumps]]. Both leaders warn that safety is in danger and that fuel resupply is imperative.
*Fenner questions if intentionally causing a slowdown or other problems with the fuel processing would yield some results.
*When Fenner quotes a passage from an underground book written by [[Gaius Baltar]] to reinforce his case ("If you hear the people, you never have to fear the people") Roslin is incensed by the quote and has the [[marine]]s in the room arrest Fenner.
*Roslin explains to Adama that Baltar's lawyer had snuck out the book, called ''[[My Triumphs, My Mistakes]]'', which has been copied about the Fleet. Roslin and Adama discuss how it is causing class strife throughout the Fleet. A visibly angered Roslin, her voice quieting to almost a whisper in her usual manner when in such a state, says, "I am thinking of having a good old-fashioned book burning."
*In their quarters, the Tyrols are having a meal. [[Cally Tyrol]] adminishes her husband from eating too much, recalling their recovery from [[A Day In The Life|vacuum exposure]] and apparent diet requirements to aid in it.
*The two eventually discuss the recent labor problems. Cally, reciting passages from Baltar's book, notes how work throughout the Fleet is divided by class lines, which also happen to be related to how work was culturally based on the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]]. Prosperous colonists from Caprica, Tauron and Virgon were mostly in administrative or professional jobs such as politicians and pilots, while colonists from places such as Gemenon, Sagittaron, and Aerelon, which were agrarian or otherwise raw-material sources, had primarily blue-collar populations. When Galen comments that [[Anastasia Dualla|Lieutenant Dualla]] was from Sagittaron, Cally answers that she was promoted only because of her [[Lee Adama|husband's Caprica status]].
*Chief Tyrol gets a call from Admiral Adama, who tells him of Fenner's arrest for "pissing off the President." Adama orders him to get to the refinery ship and get the fuel supply running. Cally recalls the old union on [[New Caprica]] and that, while the scenery has changed, the people who desired change in then-President Baltar's leadership were still around.
*Roslin visits Gaius Baltar with marine contingent, intent on confiscating any further passages of his clandestine book. She lies to Baltar, telling him that the book was intercepted before it could be mass-produced, and that was dying to read the latest entries. Roslin objects to Baltar's portrayal as a "man of the people" in his book.
*She forces a strip search of Baltar before his [[Cylon-Related Hallucinations|virtual Six]] convinces him to give up the passages to save his dignity.
*Tyrol arrives to investigate the refinery ship's operation and meets with Cavett. Cavett remembers Tyrol's work as the union leader. Cavett shows him a large cavernous room with a single comparatively small pile of tylium in its center. When asked about the amount of tylium available, Cavett notes that the Fleet would be lucky to get out of this system.
*Cavett notes that the ship is as loud as an "A-bomb" when in full production, and as equally safe.
*The conditions are squalid at best, as many workers move the granular tylium through its conversion process from ore to precursor and fuel. The working conditions are less of the problem, as workers are tired and have very little time off. Work is going much too slowly, and Cavett reminds Tyrol of the harsh work schedules that have greatly reduced fuel production.
*The group enters a conveyor area, where many workers appear to be cleaning or making minor repairs. The refining process appears to have stopped. Despite Cavett's pleas, Tyrol asks him to stop up the process. A laborer named [[Milo]] tells Tyrol that the system won't work. When pressed as to the reason, Milo is silent.
*Tyrol looks around to find that several critical pressure relief seals are missing, making the machinery unusable. The workers have intentionally hidden the seals as a protest for Fenner's arrest and an attempt to get improved working conditions.
*Later, on ''Galactica'', Tyrol reports to Admiral Adama and Roslin on his initial investigations on the refinery ship. A search has not turned up the seals. Since the group did not harm him or have contaminated the existing fuel, he believes that the workers are buying time to get their pleas heard.
*He notes that some of the people on the refinery ship have been working almost continuously since the original [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|Cylon attack on the Colonies]] with no chance to transfer or take a break.
*Roslin acknowledges the hard work, but notes that work is equally hard on the algae processing, or munitions or waste processing teams. When Tyrol asks to cede to some labor demands to get things working again, Roslin objects, calling it extortion, and asks for the names of the leaders to put them under arrest, which Tyrol reluctantly notes Cavett. Roslin curtly dismisses Tyrol when he tries to continue his pleas.

===Act 2===
*Tyrol visits Fenner and Cavett. Cavett, who was incarcerated on New Caprica by the Cylons, is experiencing hallucinations and is injuring himself. Tyrol asks for the seals, to Fenner's anger.
*Tyrol yells at both to tell him where, when Fenner relents and tells the location of the seals.
*The seals are replaced. Milo asks to flip the switch. Tyrol asks Milo's age: 12. The production resumes. Tyrol looks around to see many very young faces; many of the refinery workers are children and adolescents.
*On ''Colonial One'', Tyrol explains that the parents are passing down their skills to their children, and that the children are thus automatically stuck in their parent's careers instead of choosing an own path for their future. Roslin understands the problem, and offers to gather a list of colonists with any relevant experience that can be used to supplement the workers on the refinery ship.
*A young man named [[Danny Noon]], pulled from [[Dogsville]], questions Tyrol on the hangar deck on why he is tasked to work on the refinery ship. As Figurski tells Tyrol of the young man's farming experience, Noon denies any actual experience, having worked for one summer for money for college before the Cylon attack on the Colonies. Before Tyrol can consider reassigning the man, Figurski warns that letting the young man go may cause more to deny their experience as well, setting back the conscription process. Tyrol does not interfere.
*As Tyrol walks away, he finds a copy of Baltar's underground manifesto. Turning the page, he notes one page entitled "The Emerging Aristocracy and the Emerging Underclass." He decides to go to Baltar.
*Interviewing Baltar (who now knows that his book has circulated), Tyrol tries to separate fact from fiction. Baltar (now possessing only a mattress on the floor, with no bed frame) explains that he is really born on a dairy farm outside of [[Cuffle's Breath Wash]] on Aerelon. When Tyrol questions further, particularly Baltar's posh accent, Baltar explains (as he begins to speak in his native Aerelon voice) that he began to mimic Caprican speech starting at 10 years old so that people would not believe he was from Aerelon, a "drab, ugly rock condemned to be the food basket for the twelve worlds." Baltar left Aerelon after his 18th birthday.
*When Tyrol indicates that the strife was left on the Colonies and begins to leave the [[brig]], Baltar disagrees, indicating that the social strife has followed the people, and that the aristocracy will continue to hold on to their power.

===Act 3===
*The fresh labor on the refinery ship is helping and tylium ore is again being refined, per Fenner. He notes that some problems in the process was where the contaminants were accumulating and that work is being done to clean up the process.
*A malfunction occurs on the refinery ship conveyor, but Fenner warns that the belt has to be repaired while running, else, shutting it down will seize the whole system. Worse, not fixing the problem soon could cause an explosive chain reaction with the ore stuck in the system.
*Tyrol tries to get the problem part, but can't reach it. Danny Noon manages to reach underneath to restore the belt to operation but suffers a piercing injury as he exits from under the belt.
*Watching this suffering becomes too much for Tyrol. He slowly walks over to the belt systems main power levers and pulls them, shutting down the entire fuel operation. He tells everyone that the plant is offline and that the workers are on strike.
*Several pilots, including [[Kara Thrace]], are trying to get a flight, but Pollux tells them that they are on strike, and that only vital missions are being serviced.
*Chief Tyrol is arrested in placed in ''Galactica's'' brig. Admiral Adama tells him that the Colonial Fleet shoots mutineers like Tyrol and the deckhands.

===Act 4===
*Tyrol tries to explain his side, but Adama warns that no one on this ship can disobey orders. To prove how far he will go, he makes a phone call.
*Adama orders Cally Tyrol to be taken to the starboard hangar deck. When the Chief asks why, Adama tells him he is taking her there to be shot as a mutineer. He then states that he will continue with the executions, starting with the rebellious deck crew, if he has to.
*Tyrol is terrified, but Adama continues to elaborate: Orders, no matter how one feels about them, must be adhered to. If even one person hesitates to fulfill an order or feels that orders are optional, everyone will perish, including Tyrol's [[Nicholas Tyrol|son]]. Adama tells him that this is not his desire, but that he would put ten Callys against the wall to be shot to ensure the survival of the Fleet.
*Tyrol resigns. Adama releases him and lets him speak to Cally, who mistakenly believes that Tyrol has won. Adama releases her. Adama releases the Chief as well, reminding him that he wanted to speak with the President on the labor issues.
*On ''Colonial One'', Tyrol and President Roslin talk over drinks about the cultural vocations that some colonists are locked into by birth, which Roslin understands but cannot see how to change. Tyrol suggests a plan where other colonists, including professional types who inhabit ''Colonial One,'' get their hands dirty with many tasks, allowing some sharing of low-level chores. For high-stress jobs, Tyrol recommends that crew rotations are recommended. Roslin agrees.
*Tyrol recommends a training program, but Roslin defers it and wants Tyrol's union to give some ground in collective bargaining. When Tyrol is confused about the mention of a union he believed long gone, Roslin explains the necessity of the union and his leadership to ensure that the Fleet doesn't tear itself apart.
*Later, back on the hangar deck, Chief Tyrol is announcing work assignments when Captain Thrace arrives to complain about a missing [[nugget]] who did not report for training. She asks for Diana Seelix, who is both visibly confused and excited.
* After berating Seelix for not checking the duty roster to see where she should have reported, Thrace then tells her that she is "out of uniform". Tyrol, in on the ruse, states that he can fix that part of the problem and presents Seelix with ensign pins, promoting her to the basic officer's rank needed to train as a pilot.
*Thrace continues to play the nasty drill officer and orders the smiling Seelix off to the pilots ready room. Thrace herself cracks a smile as Tyrol asks her to "be nice" to her new recruit.

===Bonus Scene===
*Chief Tyrol has finished sorting out a handful of children who were mistakenly picked in the pool of conscripts to aid on the refinery ship. He returns to his quarters to pick up some paperwork.
*Cally Tyrol notes that most of the conscripts are from poor colonies, and that the work involved actually doesn't involve any genuine skills. She noticed that no one from ''Colonial One'' was in the list of conscripts.
*Galen berates Cally for what he feels is yet another recitation from Gaius Baltar's book. He warns her that, if he pushes too hard with the Fleet's leadership, they may pull him off of the assignment of assigning conscripts, where someone like Colonel [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] may be ordered to manage, with more dire results for everyone.
*Cally tries to encourage her husband to continue fighting for the rights of the workers as he did as the union leader on [[New Caprica]]. As she continues to press for his support, he tells her that the New Caprica union is over and leaves without further discussion.

== Questions ==
* Will Baltar's book help his image among the working class of the [[the Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] in his upcoming trial?
* Is it possible that [[Tom Zarek]] somehow assisted Baltar in the writing and distribution of his book?
* Has [[the Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]]'s [[tylium]] reserve been re-stocked at all since "[[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]"?
* Have these class differentiations amongst the colonies been problematic before the destruction of the Twelve Colonies?
* Besides occupations that are related to the "working class" and other professions such as news reporters, what other occupations exist within the fleet besides those positions found on ''Colonial One'' and ''Galactica''?
* Have the Colonials truly lost the Cylons or are the Cylons continuing on different plans?
* Why wasn't [[Saul Tigh|Tigh]] mentioned along with [[Anastasia Dualla|Dualla]] as another member of the "working class" that rose to be part of the Fleet leadership as he was born on [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]] and started his career as an enlisted man?
* Besides Baltar's testimony, is there any real solid evidence that Baltar was born on Aerelon?
* With the information provided by "[[Unfinished Business]]" and "[[A Day in the Life]]", have the attitude and admiration towards Admiral Adama changed significantly to the point that his crew feel more indifferent or resentful of him?
* Besides the six Colonies that were mentioned, how were the other colonies, such as Picon considered?

== Analysis ==
* Not having any real options for defending his actions during the Cylon occupation of New Caprica, Baltar has opted to use class warfare as a distraction from the real issues and to drum up support as a victim of "the aristocracy". His booklet appears to inspired by classic Marxist/Leninist rhetoric. Historically, such approaches to political change and power are most effective when conditions are unacceptable and dangerous for large numbers of workers.
* Adama's explanation and pending orders to execute Cally and the rest of the knuckledraggers to force Tyrol to call off the strike is reminiscent of the style of leadership found with Admiral Cain. However, once Tyrol relented and called off the strike, Adama immediately displayed his familiar style of leadership by informing Tyrol of his meeting with Roslin.
* This is the first time that an emergency cockpit ejection from a Raptor is shown during the series.
* Ever since her murder of Boomer and following detention and eventual release, Cally has displayed an attitude of disrespect towards the Fleet leadership, especially to Adama recently. Her recent demeanor and naive assumption that Adama would not do anything more than arrest the strikers may highlight a growing problem amongst the military workers that are beginning to dissent from the leadership.
* This episode, as well as "[[The Woman King]]" display an ongoing theme since Season 2 that focuses on how human beings are self-destructive by nature without any Cylon intervention. As was stated in "[[A Day In The Life]]", the Fleet hadn't encountered any Cylon forces for approximately 2 months. This state of complacency has allowed the typical in-fighting amongst the colonials to resume, especially with the depreciating state of quality of life amongst the ships in the fleet.

== Notes ==

* A number of main characters are not present at all during this episode: [[Lee Adama]], [[Sharon Agathon]], [[Karl Agathon]], [[Saul Tigh]], [[Felix Gaeta]], and [[Anastasia Dualla]].
* According to [[Bradley Thompson]], this episode was originally a different story titled "Our Enemies, Ourselves". When developing "[[The Woman King]]", it was felt that both episodes dealt with the same themes. As a result, "Dirty Hands" was created instead.
* The [[w:79th Academy Awards|79th Academy Awards]] were shown during the episode. The ratings should be taken ''lightly''.
* The prop department still hasn't produced any Ensign [[Military Ranks (RDM)|rank insignia]] yet. Like in "[[Scar]]", Lieutenant j.g. insignia are used instead.
* Cally is still dealing with the injuries she sustained in "[[A Day in the Life]]".
* One of the deckhands has lost an arm, but is using a prosthesis to work.
* [[Dogsville]] is still in use.
* Baltar reveals that he is allegedly from [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Aerelon|Aerelon]]. He displays his native accent, traces of which he claimed to have heard in Sharon Valerii's voice in "[[Flesh and Bone]]".

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

* ''[[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]] talking to [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] about his book:''
: '''Baltar''': I don't sound like I'm from [[Aerelon|Aerelon]]?
: '''Tyrol''': No
: '''Baltar''': Well you know I take that as a particular complement. I don't know about you, but I've always found the Aerelon dialact to be particularly hard on the ears.
:''Baltar begins speaking with an Aerelon accent''
: '''Baltar''': Something about the consonates that scrape the back of the throat. Course I should know an aweful lot about my native tongue, I spent hours on it in trying to overcome it. Do you have any idea how hard it is for a ten year old boy to change the way he speaks? To unlearn everything he ever learned, so that one day, one day there might be the small hope that he might be considered as not commin' from Aerelon.
:''Baltar speaks with his usual accent''
: '''Baltar''': Maybe I don't know, Caprica... Caprica... oh to be Caprican, the seat of politics, culture, art, science, learning. And what was Aerelon, just a drab ugly rock condemned to be the food basket for the twelve worlds, and thats how we were treated, like servants, like labourers, like working-class. You know you would have fitted right in there Chief, lots of men who like to work with their hands, and uh, grab a pint down at the pub and...
:''Baltar again speaks with his Aerelon accent''
: '''Baltar''': ...finish off the evenin' with a good old fashioned fight.
:''Baltar returns to speaking as he normally does''
: '''Baltar''': Oh yes, I left Aerelon after my eighteenth birthday, I turned my back on my family, my heritage, all of them, of course it doesn't matter though, they're all dead now...

== Official Statements ==
Jane Espenson, in an interview with tvsquad.com, made the following remark: "The episode, co-written with Anne Cofell Saunders, is called 'Dirty Hands,' and as you might guess, it's a look at the people who do the dirty work in the fleet. Knuckle-dragging fun!" <ref>{{cite_web|url=http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/06/jane-espenson-answers-your-battlestar-questions/|title=TV Squad: Jane Espenson answers your Battlestar questions|date=6 December 2006|accessdate=11 December 2006|last=McDuffee|first=Keith|format=|language=English}}</ref>

== Guest Stars ==
*[[David Patrick Green]] as [[Xeno Fenner]]

== External Links ==

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Episode list (RDM season 3)}}

[[Category:Episodes written by Anne Cofell Saunders]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Jane Espenson]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Wayne Rose]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Viper Mark II

2007-01-16T02:17:31Z

Antagonist:

:''This article discusses the older, generally obsolete Viper-class fighters seen in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]]. For information on the advanced Viper Mark VII from the same series, see [[Viper Mark VII]]. For the Viper used in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]] and in [[Galactica 1980]], see [[Viper (TOS)]].''

{{Ship Data
| image= Bsg-viper-1.jpg
| title= Viper Mk. II
| race= Colonial
| type= Military
| ftl= No
| propol= 1 x Voram VM2-D15 upper turbothrust engine, 2x Voram VM3-D22 turbothrust engines, 2x reverse thrust motors: [[RCS]] points
| crew= 1 pilot
| role= Space superiority fighter
| weapons= 2 [[Weapons in the Re-imagined Series#Viper and Cylon Raider|Kinetic Energy Weapon]], missiles
| arm= 2 x MEC-A6 30mm Thraxon forward-firing kinetic energy weapons ([[Weapons in the Re-imagined Series#Viper and Cylon Raider|KEW]]) mounted in the wing roots with 800 round magazine, Dorsal storage bay for 8 x HD-70 Lightning Javelin missiles (optional 50 megaton nuclear warhead)<ref name="armaments">Armaments listings and ejector seat details from David Bassom's ''[[The Official Companion|Battlestar Galactica: The Official Companion]]''.</ref>, Weapon hardpoints for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings
| status= Obsolete / In current Colonial service
| length= (8.4082m)<ref name="di">Dimensions provided by [http://www.leestringer.com/ Lee Stringer], one of the VFX Animators of the miniseries. These are for the CGI models, which are based on but not identical to the fullsize props. Source: [http://www.starshipbuilder.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000012.html Starshipbuilder.com forums]</ref>
| height= (2.7247m)<ref name="di"/><ref name="inflight">In flight, without landing gear. Landing gear adds approximately (0.5m)</ref>
| wingspan= (4.7168m)<ref name="di"/>
| img=Y
}}
The '''Viper Mark II''' was the [[Colonial Fleet]]'s primary space superiority fighter / attack craft during the [[Cylon War]], approximately 50 years prior to a second and decisive [[Cylons (RDM)|Cylon]] attack that [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|effectively destroys the civilization of the Twelve Colonies]] ([[Miniseries]]).

Capable of atmospheric flight, the Mark II is a single-seat craft mounting two kinetic energy weapons ([[Weapons in the Re-imagined Series#Viper and Cylon Raider|KEW]]s), as well as having hardpoints beneath the wings for mounting missiles, munitions pods and other ordnance ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

The Viper was originally introduced into Colonial service shortly before the outbreak of the [[Cylon War]]. However, it was the Mark II variant, designed specifically for use with the new Colonial [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestars]] that is best remembered.

The Mark II served with distinction throughout the Cylon War, proving a capable fighting vehicle that won renown across the [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]] and is regarded as one of the reasons the Colonials did not suffer defeat at the hands of the Cylons.

The Mark II remained in service after the end of the war, but was subsequently superseded by newer models. At the time of the renewed Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies, the [[Viper Mark VII]] was the front-line variant of the Viper design, retaining the Mark II general layout but using fully networked systems providing superior battle management and fight information for the pilot.

== Technical Specifications ==

=== [[Computers#Avionics|Avionics]] ===
[[Image:Vipermk2interior2 104 1080i.jpg|left|thumb|200px|Mark II joystick and analogue gauges]]
Viper Mark II fighter cockpits, as part of their use in the [[Cylon War]], were initially designed to resist Cylon attempts at disabling or damaging the fighter's flight controls. As such, the avionics of a Mark II are not complicated, relying more on the pilot's [[Mark One Eyeball]], the fighter's analog controls and a primitive computer to manage flight systems.

It is likely that Mark II fighters, given the number of analog gauges and controls, were designed to be flown entirely without its computer in the event of its compromization by Cylon cracking. Some analog gauges, such as the altimeter, are used only in atmospheric flight.

The joystick used in the Mark II is a replica of real-life F/A-18 Hornet and F-15 Eagle.

=== Armament ===

The Viper's main weapon are two wing-mounted cannons. For more information on these see the main article [[Weapons in the Re-imagined Series#Viper_and_Cylon_Raider|Weapons in the Re-imagined Series]].

In addition, it can be equipped with several missiles, carried under the fuselage ([[The Hand of God]], [[Home, Part II]]).

<div style="clear: both;"></div>

=== Performance ===

Can rotate 180 degrees vertically in .35 seconds ([[Act of Contrition]])

== Layout ==
[[Image:Viper Mk II orthos.jpg|right|thumb|Fore, side, top and aft views of the Mark II]]
The Viper Mark II is a long, sleek vehicle that can be split into two parts, fore and aft.

*Fore section: comprises the nose back to the cockpit. This contains the forward RCS systems for maneuvering the craft; the forward landing gear; the main [[avionics]] and sensor packages, plus the single-seat cockpit itself
*Stern section: comprises the main engines, fuel tanks, wings and vertical stabiliser. The wings themselves contain the kinetic energy weapons ("guns") and their munitions storage and feeds. Hardpoints beneath the wings allow missiles, munitions pods and other items to be rack-mounted ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]). The wings roots contain the main landing gear. This section of a Viper also contains a number of RCS maneuvering packs.

The stern section of a Viper is distinctive because of the offset "intakes" mounted just behind the cockpit. The port / starboard "intake" nacelles incorporate small but powerful reverse thrust engines that can quickly counter a Viper's forward momentum in an emergency ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

==Known Viper Mark IIs==
*[[Viper 289]]
*[[Viper 0205]]
*[[Viper 1104]]
*[[Viper 2220]]
*[[Viper 3266]]
*[[Viper 591]]
*[[Viper 709]]
*[[Viper 7242]]
*[[Viper 791]]
*[[Viper 7961]]
*[[Viper 8547]]
*[[Viper 8737]]

== Related Imagery ==
<gallery>
Image:1104Tube Mini.JPG|Viper in launch tube (Miniseries)
Image:7242 Mini.JPG|Viper in perfect condition (Miniseries)
Image:Starbuckmk2disintegrate 104 1080i.jpg|Burning up in an atmosphere (Act of Contrition)
Image:4267 HoG.JPG|Vipers on an attack run (The Hand of God)
Image:Bsg-viper-2.jpg|Zoic CGI model
Image:Gunsarmed 206 1080i.jpg|Guns armed
Image:Missilefire 206 1080i.jpg|Missile fired
Image:HotDogViperCockpit.jpg|Viper Mk II cockpit
Image:Radio_magnetic_indicator.JPG|Instruments: radio-magnetic indicator
Image:Vipermk2interior5 104 1080i.jpg|Instruments: altimeter
Image:Viper Attitude Indicator 1.jpg|Instruments: attitude indicator
Image:Torque Percent Indicator.JPG|Instruments: torque indicator
‎</gallery>

== References ==
<div style="font-size:85%"><references/></div>

{{Ships}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft (RDM)]]
[[Category:Colonial Military]]
[[Category:Colonial Military (RDM)]]
[[Category:Ships]]
[[Category:Ships (RDM)]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:Technology (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Valkyrie/Archive 1

2006-11-18T08:16:55Z

Antagonist: /* Class / Type / Dimensions */

Before anyone asks, here is the source: http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000pbh0a/g261 
See the seal in the background --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 16:59, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:Good Job Serenity!--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:38, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::I didn't create the article though :p --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:42, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::Yeah, but you spotted the name on the seal. Well, whoever spotted it first, good job!--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 18:44, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::Anyone else notice Tigh?--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:47, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::You mean the eye? This is probably flashback scene. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:50, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::With Admiral pips?[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]])18:52, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:::::::The description below says "'''Commander''' William Adama", as opposed to the next photo. -- [[User:Spike|Spike]] 18:56, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::::::::The rank differences clearly IDs the photo spot as a flashback. Look at the pips on the collar! What are the left collar pips verses the rank pips on the right? (Right-Left relative to the wearer) This is especially noticable on the Admiral Corman shot. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:02, 31 October 2006 (CST)

It's most likely a flashback. Maybe Adama and Tigh served on the Valkyrie and that's where [[Bulldog]] was under Adama's command. I can't really make out the rank pins. They look a bigger than Commander's insignia, but the picture quality isn't that good --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:09, 31 October 2006 (CST)

Another question, in 8 of 9 shot on that webpage, I am guessing its a flashback scene because Lee is wearing Captain's pips, but he also has a Battlestar Galactica badge on his shoulder. I thought he wasn't assigned to the Galactica prior to the miniseries? Is that the implication here or a clothing manfunction? hehe...--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:26, 31 October 2006 (CST)
:I read something that he might be demoted back to Captain. Not sure about it, but it makes sense. I guess they could keep him as Major or even Colonel, but there isn't really a job opening for a Commander at the moment.
:But looking at it more closely that might even be Major. Major and Captain look very similar, with Major having three chevron, the top one of which is directly on the diamond's edge --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 19:28, 31 October 2006 (CST)
::The original [[Jackson Spencer|CAG]] of Galactica that we see was a Major. Also, in the Miniseries, Apollo didn't wear a unit patch at all on his shoulder when he got to Galactica, pehaps since he was in the Reserves. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:21, 3 November 2006 (EST)
::In "[[Torn]]", the name plate on Lee's viper reads "Maj. Lee Adama". So I don't think he will be demoted any time soon. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:54, 10 November 2006 (CST)
I've deleted this line "both William Adama and Saul Tigh served on the Valkyrie" this is not canon, also many rumors going around are that Adama was involved in a covert operations against the cylons so he might have simply gone to the Valkyrie to be issued orders or debriefed etc, point is, we don't know. --[[user:lordmutt|lordmutt]] 19:13, 10 November 2006 (EST)
:There is a two-minute video out there, that pretty much confirms that Adama and Tigh were sent to ''Valkyrie'' for a special mission. Something about using a stealth ship to make a reconnaissance flight into Cylon space. The ship was flown by Novacek who was then captured by the Cylons. I also like that this shoots down the silly theories that the Blackbird was the Colonial's first stealth ship. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 10:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)
:: Concur. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 10:55, 10 November 2006 (CST)

== Class / Type / Dimensions ==
Now, for the time being, does ''Valkyrie'' go down as a ''Valkyrie''-type Battlestar (until someone at the "Head Office" finally tells us details like this)? I '''''especially''''' like how ''Galactica'', ''Pegasus'', and now ''Valkyrie'' are all different styles and sizes, but yet are still classified as ''battlestars''. This shows a degree of realism, creativity, and dynamicism among our intrepid Powers That Be — they're not going to pull the weak, canned trick of reusing the same model over and over and over again, ad nauseum. Also, ''hopefully'', it stomps on ''any'' musings amongst certain overzealous fans of such genres as Star Wars and Star Trek who have this bad habit of immediately speculating and squabbling over if a ship is a battleship, destroyer, frigate, etc. In this case, it would seem that, regardless of size and/or layout, a battlestar is a battlestar is a battlestar. End of line.

On that note, it would appear that ''Valkyrie'' is infact smaller than ''Galactica'', perhaps with reduced capabilities (weapons and embarked Vipers and Raptors quantities, etc.), less crew. It would also appear that she has less engines in her differently shaped array, which would make sense for a smaller, less massive starship.

Lastly, and unrelated to ''Valkyrie'' directly, that stealth recon craft was ''badass'', wasn't it? -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 23:49, 17 November 2006 (CST)

I'm not so sure that the Valkyrie is a less capable ship than the Galactica. From what Tigh said about Adama's "graceful retirement' it seems that the Valkyrie was actually a pretty prestigious command. I had always thought that commanding the Galactica was a great honor, but Tigh's words seem to indicate otherwise. Ships tend to get smaller as the technology progresses because of the reduced manpower requirement. Perhaps the smaller size of the Valkyrie is an indication of this. Theres no real numbers for the dimensions of the Valkyrie or anything to scale it to, but I also got the sense that it was smaller than the Pegasus or Galactica. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:16, 18 November 2006 (CST)

Talk:Battle of New Caprica/Archive 1

2006-11-03T20:14:55Z

Antagonist:

Holy frak. (And that was from the first 30 minutes.) --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 20:05, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:You took the words right out of my mouth. Most excellent! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 20:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::I know! Holy frakking frak. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 20:47, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
:::My Grandchildrens' childeren will kmow about this episode! --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 21:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
::::Was so good... I am posting my own option.... 100 out of 10. ;-) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:39, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

==Losses==
We've said "dozens" or "hundreds", but we should decide on one, because frankly I support "dozens". Nobody died in Pegasus, and on New Caprica it didn't look like "hundreds" died considering that's a big number for these people. So what will it be? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:51, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:For starters, we don't know that there weren't fatalities aboard the ''Pegasus'' (people may have died from hull breaches or whatnot before Adama gave the order to abandon ship). I do agree, however, that it was probably dozens, maybe less than a couple hundred at max (and that's stretching it, IMHO) that died planetside. I would list "Losses currently unknown" until we start getting a fleet population count again, then work our way from there.--[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]] ''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]'' 18:10, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, "unknown number" would work better, since we do not know specifically either way. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 04:45, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

With the survivor count reinstated in "Collaborators" we now know that about 2000 people died on New Caprica, both in the insurgency and the exodus. 
LDYB: 39,192 + 2,000 + 2,200 = 43,392 (2000 in the escaped civilian ships, 2200 on both half-strength battlestars) 
Collaborators: 41,435 
Since there is some rounding and guessing involved anyways, "approximately 2000" seems to be the best.

It can also be assumed that a couple of civilian ships were destroyed or left back on the planet, as numerous civilians are on Galactica. RDM mentioned that in the podcast as well. We just didn't see it on screen. --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:16, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:Unfortunately, that covers the entire time span between LDYB2 and Collaborators, nearly five months. We can be sure that many died in the Exodus, but many of those casualties must have taken place during the occupation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:43, 29 October 2006 (CST)
::True, but not even a larger part of it. There wasn't ''that'' much fighting until shortly before the end. Just guessing I'd say less than 300 during the occupation. That still leaves a sizeable amount of losses during the evacuation
::Maybe a note, saying that it includes the losses during the whole occupation? It's probably the closest we'll ever get to an accurate number and far better than "unknown" --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 18:48, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Also, please dont neglect the destruction of Cloud Nine and the other two vessels alongside - they may have had a few 1000 people on them... --[[User:Fordsierra4x4|Fordsierra4x4]] 19:18, 29 October 2006 (CST)

:We haven't. See [[survivor count]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:06, 29 October 2006 (CST)

==Which Three is this Three?==

''...Meanwhile, Baltar and [[Caprica Six]] attempt to stop [[D'anna Biers]] from activating a nuclear device. After the Cylons lost control of the ground situation, the majority of the agents left on a [[Heavy Raider]] and left Biers with the responsibility of activating a nuclear device to "clean up"; however, she can't find it.''

How exactly was it detemined that this Three was the [[D'anna Biers]] Three? I would argue that this three was the one that tried to have the "War Heroes" boxed in [[Downloaded]]. D'anna, (assuming she died on Cloud 9, we don't know) was still alive and with the fleet according to the [[Timeline]].

And how did we determine that Three "couldn't find" the nuke? It appears that she made a beeline for the oracle, as presumably the nuke would be located inside the "green zone". [[User:Belay-down-your-burdens|Belay-down-your-burdens]] 00:41, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:Actually, she was named as D'anna by Baltar, which is pretty interesting. Somehow she must have been able to avoid being exposed by Anders for over a year, until the arrival of new resurrection facilities. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the "Number Three" article talk page. I posted a section on some research I did to find out which Three it was :p --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 05:59, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
:As interesting as this discussion is, it is more relevant for the [[Exodus, Part II]] or [[Number Three]] page rather than the page for the battle. I'm cutting down the last paragraph about this sequence for the same reason. My rationale: once the civilian ships depart, once the basestars are destroyed/debilitated, once ''Galactica'' is away, a potential squabble between Baltar and whichever Cylons happen to remain on the surface matters very little. There is very limited militarily decisive action; it ought not get more than a cursory review in a battle summary, especially with as much as we must assume to make the description accurate. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 11:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

:I concur with Keithustrus. Battle pages are not for episode or character narratives. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:49, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

==Atmospheric Heating Effects==

Of course it looked cool, but I am not really sure why the underside of Galactica would have been superheated as it descended toward New Caprica City the way it was protrayed in the episode. Such superheating is not the result of free-falling through the atmosphere, but actually the result of friction with the atmosphere due to extreme velocity. Which is precisely why skydivers do not burn up after jumping out of an airplane but space craft deorbiting (traveling initially at about 5 miles per second coming from low Earth orbit as an example) do. Galactica jumped into the atmosphere over New Caprica City, it did not (strictly speaking) reenter the atmosphere. It is possible, of course, that any velocity Galactica had prior to jumping was imparted to or else retained by Galactica after the jump. However, one might be pardoned for supposing that any such velocity would have been along the ship's main bow-to-stern axis (though this is not necessarily true), and not stright along the free fall axis the ship was clearly heating up on (i.e., from dorsal to ventral side). I would also point out that Galactica did not appear to be traveling at a sufficient speed in its fall to cause superheating, though of course this may be the subject of debate. Anyway, just a thought. The dramatic effect more than made up for any possible technical inaccuracy. --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 19:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good technical error to add to one of the science articles, if the general article. ''Galactica'' would have had to be moving much faster than the rate she was falling. The Space Shuttle Orbiter superheats at less than 17,000 MPH as it reenters, and its much higher. Science be damned, though--it was thoroughly badass. :)--[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Yeah, can you give me a suggestion as to which article(s) to bring this up in? --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:But don't forget, that data is based on the chemical makeup and density of our own atmosphere. Its possible that New Caprica's atmosphere is quite a bit different than Earth's, even though it is still inhabitable. And for all we know, FTL travel causes the surface of a vessel to heat up. This is all hypothetical, but its justification for the appearance of the atmospheric heating. --[[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]]

::Yes, but we have to assume that New Caprica's atmospheric makeup is at least somewhat similar to Earth normal (which carries the underlying assumption that the Colonials are used to something along those lines), or else we would notice some sort of profound difference, such as a difference in rate of combustion, sound transmission, or any number of other things. I just do not think we have any reason to believe New Caprica is any different (atmosphericaly) from any Terran-type planet. (Probably does not hurt that they actually film the episodes on Earth. ;-) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 22:59, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

:That's a good bit of study but there is another very big factor and that is the sheer size of the Galactica. Nothing that size has ever been witnessed to enter Earth's atmosphere and the incredible mass of it adds a multiplier. What we are seeing is a large release of energy and energy is force through a given distance and force is mass and exceleration, therefore energy = mass x acceleration x change in distance or = mass x velocity squared. Those are 3 equal parameters to energy. We know that the space shuttle superheats at 17,000 mph or thereabouts and lets assume that the gravity of New Caprica is equal to the gravity of Earth, that is g = 9.8 m/s^2. Let's also assume that the distance that they dropped was 90,000 m - a guess from the dialog but really it's just a guess but what seems a theorical large enough distance for the depicted sequence of events to have occurred. Given these parameters, if the Galactica was 654,820 times larger than the space shuttle, then it would release the same amount of energy. (I could bore you with the math but I don't think that is necessary. Ya'll get the idea.) However, I am certainly willing to bet that the Galactica is many million times larger than the Space Shuttle and therefore would release many times more energy which would account for the same superheating effect seen on screen, though objects falling fair slower than the space shuttle, and of much less size cause the same superheating effect. Case in point, the Mercury-Redstone 3 carrying Alan Sheppard to be the 1st American in space only traveled to less than 10,000 MPH (it didn't reach orbital speeds) and was 1/2000 times the size of the space shuttle and it returned superheated. There was this super-rich dude (sorry, I can't remember his name. I'll come back later with a site but right now I can't remember the dudes name.) who recently did a superhigh jump from .... I think it was 80,000 feet and he had to wear heat shielding to protect himself. Again, much smaller object and starting from a relative standstill getting superheated. Normal parachute jumpers only jump from a few hundred to a few thousand feet but no more. You gotta face it! The Galactica is one big ole vessel and it had to jump from a very high altitude to pull off that stunt and it doesn't move through atmo without consequences.--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 23:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

::Actually, I ran the math again (1st time I did it practically in my head so it was a little esque) and if I say that the Galactica is 100,000 times larger than the space shuttle dropped at the same parameters, I get 15,000 times as much energy released. Therefore, 1 million times as large produces 150,000 times as much energy. This is taking the Galactica starting at a rest stop (no speed relative to New Caprica) when it initially jumped into the atmosphere. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 00:44, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I think you are missing the point here: the size of the object is not the issue, it is the speed at which it is traveling. Yes, Galactica has orders of magnitude more potential energy than the Space Shuttle reentering, but most of that energy would be released upon impact with the ground, not as a result of atmospheric friction. And I am not contending that Galactica would not have heated to some degree because of free-fall acceleration: it clearly would. (As indeed spacecraft do upon launch, just not nearly to the degree they do upon reentry where they have to use drag to *entirely* eliminate their orbital velocity.) Whether it would heat it to that degree or cause that level of damage is another question entirely. And there simply is no question that Galactica was traveling anywhere near 17,500 mile per hour or even the 10,000 miles per hour of a suborbital Alan Shepard-type loft. Those speeds are blindingly fast, and Galactica simply was not going that fast based on the video evidence. I lack the math physics to prove it, but I also suspect Galactica's terminal velocity within an atmosphere would also be far, far under the figures necessary to cause deorbit-type heating. Just my two cents. :) --[[User:Felix Culpa|Felix Culpa]] 12:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Thanks for you 2 cents. It's hard to say without actually doing the math (It's definitely a good science experiment for a Physics 101 course) and nobody here can say "Oh, yeah, this is the answer" cuz nobody has ever scene a 2,000,000,000,000 KG drop from that height. But my point is the number of zeroes that are in the mass of the Galactica and I've scene superheating events in significantly smaller objects. A mass with that many zeroes is just as important a factor as how fast it is going. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 12:28, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:Been a long time since taking physics, but let me throw in my two cents. Start with the basics: terminal velocity. If something goes faster than that, it's drag slows it until it reaches that speed. Drag = heat. Let's assume, based on the info [[wikipedia:terminal velocity|here at Wikipedia]] and [[wikipedia:Reentry|here]], that Galactica has terribly more drag than a skydiver or peregrine falcon. I'll guess it's TV is something like...pure guess...150km/h. This, btw, is 93mph or .04 km/s, absolutely nothing compared to the speeds that a ship would be travelling outside of an atmosphere. Here's the main question: '''after jumping, does Galactica begin with an initial velocity, relative to the planet, of 0, or does it maintain its inertial velocity?''' Wikipedia: "An approximate rule-of-thumb used by heat shield designers for estimating peak shock layer temperature is to assume the air temperature in Kelvins to be equal to the entry speed in meters per second. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K." So, if Galactica started from a complete stop, it's shock layer temperature would be 42K, which I don't have to tell you is not going to light anything on fire. Because there was fire and all that stuff, I'm going to assume they were travelling at thousands of mph. My conclusion: '''when ships jump, they maintain their Newtonian momentum,''' which makes sense, when you think about it. It seems like the ship could have been saved a lot of wear and tear if it had manually stopped, then jumped. That way, it would fall at *only* its TV, and be subject to not much heat. . . . . . but I'm an amateur. Any experts around? - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 13:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

::Keithustus, Great analysis! However, you guess for TV I think is way off. TV is not a constant. It is a variable that has many parameters, one of which in the numerator is Mass. Therfore, the larger the Mass, the larger the TV. The impression the show gave is that it started from a standstill, what Galactica did was like a skydive. So I can make a comparison with a famous skydiver, [[wikipedia:Joseph Kittinger|Joseph Kittinger]]. In 1961, he jumped from a helium balloon at 102,800 feet (31,300 m) and reached a TV of 618 MPH (994 km/h), or mach 0.9. Since Galactica is 2,000,000,000 times more massive than he was, the TV should be considerably larger. Of course not 2,000,000,000 because the Galactica's cross-sectional area is also far far greater and that's in the denominator so without actually numbers, I can't say for sure the balance of the 2. But I think the TV is going to be more in the range of 1000s rather than 100s of km/h. Again, a guess though. The "reentry shock" effect isn't a factor because the Galactica is skydiving. It's not a question of bringing the Galactica to a rest before jumping but more of a case of Galactica matching the velocity of New Caprica as all objects in space are in motion. Before Galactica jumped, my guess is that they measured the planets vectoral velocity through its orbit around the star and attempted to match it as close as possible before jumping to allow it to enter its atmosphere at a zero velocity relative to New Caprica which would give it the best chance of pulling off its manuever. But all motion through atmosphere causes heat, how much heat is the question. All aircraft travelling above the speed of sound experience some degree of air compressional superheating along their bows, not enough to cause fire, but heating none the less. --[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 14:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

:I'm back. First, I apologize if removing all the tab-tab-tab-tabbing throws anyone off, but it was wasting a lot of room so I replaced each tab depth with a line of whitespace and two alternating tab depths. So, here's what I did:
#Determine size, displacement, and then determined density of ''[[wikipedia:Akula class submarine|Akula]]''-class submarine, the world's largest. It worked out to be 994 kg/m3, with a full load.
#Determined far larger volume of a [[Mercury class battlestar]], using its specified dimensions. Alright, here's the first big overestimate: I used the same density for the Battlestar as for the sub. The density of the sub ought to be far higher than that of the Battlestar, ''because I used the maximum distance of each dimension, as if the battlestar was a rectangular prism.'' Clearly, it's not, so this will give us an overestimated, and thus, safer, result. Using the same mass, which, as I said, is far higher probably than it should, the mass of ''Galactica'' becomes ...within a significant digit or two of... 140,000,000,000 kg.
#Now to the equation: TV = Sqrt( (2 * mass * gravity) / (coefficient of friction * cross section * density of air) )
:*2 is 2. Easy
:*mass is 1.4 x 10^11, as above
:*gravity....a bit of research indicates that it only lowers slightly, with it at 9.8 where we live, and 9.7 at the fringes of what is generally considered to be the atmosphere. I'll go with 9.75...minor flub.
:*coefficient of friction is hard....it is normally determined experimentally with a wind tunnel, but there are some computer programs that can do it for you, if you have the time, expertise, and precision. On the other hand, the battlestar as shown was kind of like a flat disc falling flat on its face, which has a coefficient of 1.3. Works for me. FYI, airplanes usually are in the .05 to .2 range, cars in .2 to .4, a smooth curved surface at 1. They don't really list a lot of things over 1.3, though...not worth flying I guess.
:*cross section. multipy length times width from specifications. 784770 m^2. Easy
:*atmospheric density. It's like 1.3 kg/m^3 near sea level, and is somewhat less than 1 high up. 1 sounds fine for me. We're just hoping within a significant digit, after all.
:4. Put all the numbers in the formula. Now, before the answer comes, remember that this is a right rectangular prism with a density matching that of a Russian submarine, and thus weighs probably 4-8 times what it ought, and that the friction is different in who knows what ways...my cheap estimates put the "block Battlestar" hitting a maximum velocity of '''1635 m/s, or 1.6 km/s, or 3,657 mph...JUST UNDER MACH 5''' (at sea level). Yikes! Given all the overestimating, I'd round it down to mach 4, maybe 3.5, who knows? Either way, who wants to put money on something built for combat damage to accept heat/turbulance stress at that eventual speed? I'm sold on them carefully match the rotation of the planet as suggested above...but I really don't have the time right now to determine how long it would take or what distance would be covered while reaching that speed (the air resistance really throws off those high-school equations). I've hit the edge of my grasping at this. Hope this has been entertainin and maybe not too uneducational. - [[User:Keithustus|Keithustus]] 18:26, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
::Keithustus, that was very beautiful, I have to hand it to you. Wonderful! That must of taken you a little bit of time to come up with all those numbers. I'm looking it over and I like how you given leaway for error and I will take that TV of Sealevel Mach 4 to 5. It's about an imaginary spacecraft so we can make our own assumptions. So with this TV, we can now determine heat energy released by superheating friction with the atmosphere and that's another set of equations.....--[[User:Straycat0|Straycat0]] 19:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
:::Or we could assume that FTL travel superheats the hull of a ship, and that caused the effect. Makes it much easier to swallow. [[User:Maserati1945|Maserati1945]] 08:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

==A New Piece of Information About Galactica==
It seems like everyones talking about what Galactica's TV may or may not be, but to me the more interesting piece of information we can learn from the battle is that apparently, Galactica isn't designed to land on a planet's surface. Firstly, it lacks any sort of vertical thrusters, secondly, its surface seemed to not respond well to the head of re-entry, thirdly, Galactica has no apparent landing struts or similar devices. Also, we learn that many of the ships in the colonial fleet CAN land. Well actually we learned this earlier in LDYB, but now we also learn that they can take off. From all of this we can infer that Galactica was built, or at least assembled entirely in space, where it is born, lives, fights, and dies. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 15:14, 3 November 2006 (EST)

Talk:Basestar (TRS)/Archive 1

2006-06-12T03:32:52Z

Antagonist:

I just registered 5 minutes ago, so be gentle...
Is there any reason why the references to BattleStar's and Raiders are neither capitalized, or links?

: Hi! Welcome to the Wiki -- I hope you have a blast here! :-) Anyway, to address your question, Battlestar can be spelled one of two ways ("Battlestar" or "battlestar"). ("BattleStar" is an incorrect spelling, by the way.) As for raiders, you can capitalize them or not; it's similar to writing the "stealth fighter" or "naval carrier" -- you can choose whether or not to capitalize the first letters of each word. As for the links, by default the first letter of any article is capitalized. Why? It's just how the software we use works. :-) Hope that answers your question! -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:54, 14 Jun 2005 (EDT)

I noticed that Kuralyov had a number of Talk entries regarding basestars. Was he just tweaking the language?

:Just redirects from the various names used to describe Basestars, so any newcomer will be better able to find it via search. [[User:68.9.113.183|68.9.113.183]] 22:23, 15 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Whoops, I was logged out for some reason when I posted that. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:24, 15 Jun 2005 (EDT)

Corrected minor spelling mistake - [[user:lordmutt|Lordmutt]] 18 February, 2006

I'm not sure if the new bulleted list works or not. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:39, 22 March 2006 (CST)

: Each bulleted segment refers to a specific instance of an encounter between depicted Colonial forces and (a) Cylon basestar(s). The section title of "Encounters With the Colonial Fleet", and the way that the material was structured when I initiated the edit, implied that this was a list of some kind, at least a loosely associated one. The material that was there was also grammatically sloppy, overly detailed in some areas, and vague in others. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 23:47, 22 March 2006 (CST)

::You did a good job re-editing it, I'm just "not sure" it's best to keep it as a bulleted list, I don't know if this would be "aesthetically pleasing" or whatever. Point is I'm not sure; I dunno, just bringing up the point; whatever you guys decide I'm fine with; wouldn't be a problem if it stays the way Hawke left it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:17, 23 March 2006 (CST)

== TOS Basestar ==

Can someone please add a some information about the original basestar.

: See the first line of the article, please. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:26, 17 January 2006 (EST)

== Image placement ==

So, rather than a revert war: I had shifted one of the images on this page to the left for balance. That's the scheme that's used on many character pages and I think it looks best. However, Bane Grievver seems to disagree but reverted without comment, so I'm soliciting one here. Any particular reason, Bane, or just because that's how it was before? --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:30, 17 January 2006 (EST)

:I liked it your way, FWIW. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:10, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:I just made it what I'd imagine your way was in ignorance of the previous revert issue. I also added another image on the right, so hopefully that will remove any objection. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 20:01, 31 March 2006 (CST)

== 792? ==

Maybe I'm being dense, but how do you count the number of launch slots with such certainty? I could understand a Zoic source, I suppose, but just counting leaves me less sure. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 20:03, 31 March 2006 (CST)

==Images linked to in article==
As the wiki doesnt count the images linked in this article to be counted as being used I have thumbed them here so that they will not be deleted.
<removed>
 --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:50, 3 April 2006 (CDT)
:Placed images in new gallery feature so removed from Talk page --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 08:39, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

==Size==
Do Basestars really 'dwarf' Battlestars like the Pegasus and Galactica? Personally I think that they do, thats just the feel I get for them, but the truth is that I can't find any really good comparisons of a Battlestar and Basestar close togther. Theres a scene from Ressurectin Ship Pt. 2 where Apollo is drifting in space and you can see a Basestar and the two Battlestars, but the perspective is such that you can't really tell the size of them. Are theyre any concrete numbers on Basestar size, or at least some good comparisons?[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 22:32, 11 June 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Scattered/Archive 1

2006-04-09T06:10:51Z

Antagonist: /* Who/what attacked Tyrol's group */

== Concern Regarding the Quote from "BSG Insider" ==

Can we have a source URL (or two) for the following:

:''"So much for all the hype about Alonzo's acting convincing Ron Moore to "resurrect" Socinus from the Pilot Movie, only to kill him off at the start of the 2nd season. Guess they're trimming the fat to account for those main cast salary increases, huh?" - Anonymous BSG Insider, April 18th, 2005.''

Otherwise, I don't feel that it should be added to this page, unless there are other people out there who would like to vote for its amendment to the [[Scattered]] page. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 00:01, 1 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Well, I usually like to see evidence of this. I don't suppose that there is place for a rumors section with regards to these yet unseen episodes?--[[User:67.136.143.139|67.136.143.139]] 23:04, 10 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::: I would add it to the regular page, except that I need a source URL (such as a news report from some place like GateWorld, etc.) with this quote. Otherwise, I have no problem with it. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 08:38, 11 Jun 2005 (EDT)

----
Shouldn't season openers be somewhat interesting? Like, say, spend for that 5 minutes TOTAL on every single major plot point left open from the previous season?
This felt like a filler episode to me. Don't filler episodes usually wait till mid season or something?

== Questionable Questions ==
We saw Captain Kelly in the mini-series, but yeah, not much of anywhere else. Still, he was around before. Gaius also did Boomer's test before he ever began testing on a large scale. I doubt he would've released his info based on his behavior in Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. Also, I just think Tigh hate Baltar for being flirtatious with his wife in that same episode. All speculation...but y'know...makes sense stuff. Oh yes, and in the podcast, RDM says that they didn't check out the ship wreckage in the flight pod because they were too busy and the flight pod was unused. He also says that they speculated that the ship was destroye don impact because there was no fire. -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 21:17, 16 July 2005 (EST)
:I think the reason Kelly wasn't seen in season 1 was due to the fact that by the time they decided to have a season 1, the actor was unavailable at the time.[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:18, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)
:: Well, realistically, we know that... but obviously, in the BSG universe, there's got to be a reason why we haven't seen him before. Also, quick question, did we actually ''see'' Cylons firing from behind the foliage? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:14, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)
:: No we don't. All they saw was muzzle flash, but the audience can recognize the sound of the Centurions' arm cannons. Though, that could be turned against us. Perfect example of the use of non-dramatic irony in this show that makes it so good. -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 0:31, 17 July 2005 (EST)
=== The Significance of "3" ===
As for the "three" question, you may want to see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_%28number%29#In_human_culture . I'm thinking that it has something to do with the holy trinity... (or maybe a family unit, such as one created by Helo and Valerii -- or Baltar and Six). -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:14, 16 Jul 2005 (EDT)

: RDM just said that the door with the "3" on it was just a motif for that ep. We never saw what was behind it until the final act and seeing Tigh about to kill himself. The door is the one that leads into his quarters and where his death was prevented by Adam's actions. -- [[User:yenguyen|YeNguyen]] 0:33, 17 July 2005 (EST)

== Medic guest star? ==

RDM mentioned on the podcast that the medic who performed surgery on Commander Adama in this episode was portrayed by Jamie Bamber's wife. AFAIK she is not mentioned under Guest Stars nor anywhere else on this page. Anyone know what her name is? Should we add some mention here?
--[[User:Laven|Laven]] 01:52, 1 Aug 2005 (EDT)

==Episode Screen Capture==
While the current screen capture is quite visually appealing, the episode guide template guidelines promote the use of a 16:9 (or 4:3) ratio shot. If a good shot of that aspect ratio could be found, ideally we would replace this one. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:13, 19 January 2006 (EST)
:Is it ok now? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 07:33, 20 January 2006 (EST)
::Fine by me! --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:26, 20 January 2006 (EST)

== New Analysis Format Thoughts ==
Bold. ('''Bold?''') I like it, but my only reservation is that I doubt the analysis section would be able to unfold in that format. What we may have is a format that people use around the time the show airs, and then a later format imposed later that categorizes/sorts/etc. the analysis that has been left. Which is sort of how the "Questions" thing looks to have sorted itself out as well. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:56, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
:Exactly so -- I'm not expecting all users to fall into this pattern, and I don't expect the Questions section to stop collecting initial speculations and analysis. The purpose behind this project is basically post-filtering. This page is a good example of why allowing user questions (as opposed to dangling-thread questions) to initially be answered is not entirely evil. The result was several good analysis points, once it was boiled down. At some point, I may rephrase the section on the Standards page to suggest that using Questions for Q&A/speculation is OK '''initially''' but that it '''will''' eventually get cleaned up to follow the guidlines.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:47, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

I disagree with your whole attempt to change the Questions and Analysis sections. Some concision and minor editing tweaks to streamline it are always a plus, but a change in the format itself I oppose. More on this as I get to it. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:58, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
: -->***However, upon further examination (I'm "much to hasty"), I have no problem with what you specifically just did here: I don't have any real concern with shifting things around from Questions to Analysis, as long as nothing gets actually removed. This page seems like a good change, and I'd hold this up as an example of "good" concision: not destroying any of the detailed analysis and stuff we've been doing, just shifting it around for formatting, etc. Btw, minor quibble, does everyone think that they should be bolded like that? I don't care one way or the other. --->As for the computers issue....yes I actually think that the networking was responsible for this and I never had a problem with that. In it's current form, this sounds POV. Perhaps you could heavily edit it around to include interlinks to our discussions on Computers and Science in the Re-Imagines Series? (I'd erase it if I did it).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

::If you're OK with this page, then you and I are really much closer in our opinions of this reform than you have seemed to think. My aim in all of this is not to lose real information or analysis from the pages, but to edit out the forum-like bickering, crosstalk, and speculation and keep things focused on providing that information in an encyclopedic format.
::The section on the networked computers was original to the article and is mostly unchanged, but could use some cleanup/revision. Actually, being a born and bred geek, I find most of that section unnecessary and redundant. The simple answer would be: "If any component that receives '''any''' external input -- including, say, DRADIS -- were made part of the network, then the resulting network is vunerable. The annals of real-world networked computing abound with tales of vunerabilities exploited through unexpected means."--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 17:41, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

:::Please put that in, it sounds good. I'll get to toying around with what might be done with LDYB II when I have time. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:54, 4 April 2006 (CDT)

== Who/what attacked Tyrol's group ==
I got the impression from how this was shot that it wasn't cylons that attacked Tyrol and his group, but rather the other survivors, who under the poor leadership of Crashdown began to fire on their own men. This is why (to me) the cylons are never shown. Furthermore, the weapons fire comming from the other side seems to be very colonial. Centurions don't seem to take cover lik ehumans do, they usually stand out in the open and rely on their superior firepower and armor, but the enemies we see attacking tyrol are clearly taking cover so as not to be noticed. I think that Crashdown fired on Tyrol, and then fell back, believing it was a Cylon attack force, with Tyrol later finding them. Am I totally off the ball here? --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 12:38, 8 April 2006 (CDT)
::Are you in Britain or something? Later episodes make this clear, I guess you might not have been able to see them yet. There are no other survivors. It is definately the Cylons, it's just scarier when you can't see them, like in a real war. We actually see Centurions taking advantage of cover and stuff in LDYB II.--[[User:The Merovingian|The
Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:41, 8 April 2006 (CDT)
::: No I'm not in Britain or something, what I was trying to say wasnt that they were being attacked by some other survivors, but the other people from their group (crashdown, the medic, etc.) It doesn't matter anyway, I went and watched the scene (on DVD) and lisitned to the commentary also. RDM definently says that they are being attacked by cylons. I was wrong --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 01:10, 9 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Yeah, although I initially thought this as well, all the survivors from Raptor 1 are accounted for. There were no other humans on the planet at that time. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:17, 8 April 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Scattered/Archive 1

2006-04-08T17:38:47Z

Antagonist:

Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II

2006-03-15T03:05:37Z

Antagonist: /* Analysis */

{{Episode Data|
Image = [[Image:Baltarlaydownburdensii.jpg|300px]]
| Title= Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II
| Series= [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|The Re-imagined Series]]
| Season= [[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode= 20
| Guests= [[Richard Hatch]] ([[Tom Zarek]]) [[Kate Vernon]] ([[Ellen Tigh]]) [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001777/ Dean Stockwell] ([[Cavil|Brother Cavil]])
| Writer=[[IMDB:nm1093194|Anne Cofell Saunders]], [[IMDB:nm0894156|Mark Verheiden]]
| Story=
| Director=[[Michael Rymer]]
| Production=
| Rating=
| US Airdate= March 10, 2006
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=
| Population= 49,550
| Prev= [[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]
| Next= TBA
}}

== Overview ==

: ''Everything turns on its head as the survivors vote for a new president -- and vote for their fate.''

== Summary ==

===On Caprica===

*[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]], the marines, and the [[resistance (movement)|resistance]] continue to take fire from Cylon centurions and artillery. They make their way up a hill, and hold their position.
*The Cylons hold fire, and Sharon remarks that the Cylons will attempt to capture them with non-lethal weapons, such as gas.
*Eighteen hours later, they emerge to find that the Cylons have disappeared. [[Cavil]] -- who suddenly appears behind them -- announces that the Cylons have left the Twelve Colonies and that humanity was spared.

===In the Fleet===

*[[Cally]] is cleared back to work by [[Cottle|Dr. Cottle]], despite having her jaw wired shut. [[Tyrol|Chief Tyrol]] visits her, apologizing for the attack. Cally forgives him, saying that she's always cared for him.

*[[Gaius Baltar|Dr. Baltar]] continues to gain in the polls. On ''[[Colonial One]]'', Tory mentions there's always a victory plan. [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]] later calls a private meeting with Dr. Baltar, asking to deliver a joint statement of [[Wikipedia:Table (verb)|tabling]] the issue of colonization until after the election, which Baltar rejects.

*[[Laura Roslin|Roslin]], fearing that she has indeed lost the presidential race, confronts [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] on whether he was with Six on Caprica before the Cylon attack. Baltar avoids answering the question & states that he may have saved her life, but he will not save her political life.

*[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] returns to ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]'', with the resistance fighters, much to the delight of Admiral Adama. She mentions the fact that the Cylons have left Caprica, and a man appearing to be Brother Cavil confirms it. He also says he has a message, but is attacked by Chief Tyrol, who declares a "[[Code blue]]," claiming Cavil is a Cylon. Both Cavil and Caprica-Sharon are escorted to the brig under marine guard.

*The other Cavil (from last episode) is also taken to the brig, claiming he's not a Cylon, but changes his tune upon seeing his "brother", as he calls him. Both Cavils then talk about the fact that the “war heroes” (Caprica Six & ''Galactica''-Sharon) have talked about how the attack of the colonies and the pursuit of the fleet were mistakes. They were told to relay the message that man and Cylon will go their separate ways. Both Roslin and Admiral Adama are less than trusting regarding the message.

*In the brig, Caprica-Sharon is completely disillusioned and nihilistic, declaring that since her child's death, nothing - not Adama's trust, not even Helo - matters to her. A frustrated Helo insists that he's not giving up on her, but she seems disinclined to listen.

*Starbuck and Anders are getting extremely drunk when Apollo comes in to welcome them back. Starbuck makes a snide remark about Apollo and Dualla and goes back to drunkenly making out with Anders. Apollo, clearly upset with Starbuck, leaves without saying much.

*Election Day has arrived and Baltar has an apparent five thousand-vote lead over Roslin with only a few ships left. On ''Colonial One'', Tory makes a call to ''Galactica'', putting a plan into action.

*Amazingly, Roslin initially appears to have retained the presidency. While most are celebrating, Lt. Gaeta makes a startling discovery regarding the votes, and informs the Admiral that Col. Tigh may be involved in a conspiracy to throw the election.

*Admiral Adama confronts Roslin regarding the conspiracy, saying he has a confession to rig the vote. Roslin admits her involvement and Adama is disappointed.

*Baltar is informed of his election as President. He's less than pleased, vowing to have full investigation in time. President-elect Baltar then orders a course for “New Caprica”.

*[[Gaius Baltar]] is sworn in as the new President of the Twelve Colonies, and orders the immediate colonization of New Caprica.

*''[[Cloud 9]]'' is destroyed by a nuclear blast, Gina being present before the explosion; in addition to the ''Cloud 9'', at least three other ships are destroyed in the blast. Admiral Adama reports to the president that this may be a Cylon attack, but Baltar ignores him and presses forward with colonization.

===One Year Later===
[[image:burdens2.jpg|Kara and Cottle on New Caprica.|thumb]]
*[[Felix Gaeta|Mr. Gaeta]] is reporting to the President regarding a Union issue aboard Colonial One, now down on the planet. Baltar is upset, saying there have been no Cylon attacks but the people still complain. He has regressed, turning to alcohol, medication, and womanizing.

*Admiral Adama, now sporting a mustache, is walking around the near-empty Galactica, which is quickly falling into disarray. Over half of the crew have moved down onto the planet, and they are running on such a skeleton crew that they barely have enough pilots to fly training missions, much less a good CAP. Adama has a discussion with Tigh about going down to the planet, which Tigh reluctantly agrees to do.

*[[Samuel Anders|Anders]], now Kara’s husband, has pneumonia. Dr. Cottle is unable to treat Anders because there are no antibiotics available. He can only advise Kara to make sure Anders gets enough rest and with a little luck he "should" pull through.

*Kara runs into the Tighs as [[Tyrol]], now a union boss, is making a speech to begin a strike, with a very pregnant Cally by his side. Saul mentions that ''Pegasus'' keeps the backup medical supplies and that Apollo would spring some for Starbuck. Starbuck disagrees, which prompts Tigh to state that Apollo should be "over that by now".

*Roslin is doing what she does best, teaching the settlement's children, and manages to find enjoyment in her new position. [[Maya]] is with her, as is the now one year old [[Hera]], whom Maya has named "Isis".

*Kara calls Lee aboard ''Pegasus'', requesting the antibiotics. Dualla, now an officer and most likely Lee's XO, notices something on the [[DRADIS]].

*A fleet of [[Cylon]] [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]]s arrive in orbit around New Caprica. The Adamas are having a discussion about what to do, when [[Helo]] asks if alert fighters should be launched. Admiral Adama keeps them in as [[Fall of New Caprica|defense fleet jumps away]].

*Mr. Gaeta informs the President of the Cylon approach. Later, before his assembled staff, copies of Numbers [[Number Five|5]], [[Number Eight|8]], and [[Number Six|6]] approach the President. The Cylons declare that as long as there’s no resistance, no harm will come. President Baltar, after learning that the Cylons discovered New Caprica because of the nuke explosion set off by Gina, declares surrender on behalf of the colonists. As Cylon armies occupy the planet, Kara vows to resist.

== Questions ==

*Who is Baltar's vice president?
*What "number" is Cavil?
*Was Roslin's threat to put the two Cavils into space actually carried out?
*Where did the defense fleet jump to?
*Where is Caprica-Sharon?
*What happened to Zarek?
*Why is Leoben looking for Starbuck, specifically?
*Why has the population (until Tyrol's recent union speech) accepted Baltar's imperious rule? People were hardly so passive under Roslin. Indeed, Adama executed a military coup over a rather less important issue than giving a nuclear weapon to a Cylon agent.
*Are the Six and Eight that Baltar surrendered to [[Caprica-Six]] and [[Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy)|''Galactica''-Sharon]]?
*Where did the Cylon fleets go, after they left the Twelve Colonies? Cavil was deliberately vague when asked if they simply returned to the [[Cylon homeworld]].
*Did the nuclear bomb ever get picked up by the fleet's radiological alarms?
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]])
*When Gina-Six was instantly vaporized due to being only two feet from a nuclear detonation, did she still transmit her consciousness? Was she even capable of transmitting considering that any internal hardware responsible for this task would have been instantly destroyed?
*Given Roslin's memories of Baltar with Six, why didn't Admiral Adama suspect Baltar of handing over the nuke to the cylons? If he did suspect him, why not act on it?
*Did the events of "One Year Later" actually happen, or were they a dream or vision sequence given to Baltar?
*Why was it so easy for Adama to hide the collusion of the rigged election from the press, and why were there no consequences?
*If the Cylons really left the Twelve Colonies, leaving behind a nuked-out wasteland, what happened to all of the human captives in the [[Farms]]?
*Why have the Cylons returned after suggesting that they were willing to go their "separate ways"?
*Did the Cavils lie about the pursuit of humanity being a mistake? Or were they telling the truth?
*Will the Cylons resume their pursuit of the Fleet?
*How many people are left in the Fleet? (see [[#Analysis|Analysis]])
*Will the Adamas resort to Cain's tactic of conscripting civilians to fill the gaps?
*What happened between Apollo and Starbuck?
*What led to Starbuck's reconciliation with Col. Tigh? The two had been in conflict since the [[Miniseries]], what led them to bury the hatchet and become the close friends they now appear to be?
*Has it become public knowledge that Baltar killed [[Crashdown]] on [[Kobol]]? Now that Chief and Cally are Baltar's open adversaries they could attempt to use this information against him.
*When Adama informs Baltar that the nuke used to blow up [[Cloud Nine]] was probably stolen form Gaius' lab, why is he not suspicious about the fact that Baltar never reported that it was missing? Had it really been stolen from his lab, he would surely notice.
*Are the Cylons that appear at the end representative of the whole Cylon race, or are they a faction that broke off after the two "Cylon Hereos" began to speak out against the war on the humans?
*If it is true that the Cylons now believe the attack on humanity was a mistake, is the occupation on New Caprica viewed by the Cylons as an act of mercy and kindness vs. oppression from the human perspective?

== Analysis ==
*Baltar's arrogance seems to have led to corrupt rule during his year on New Caprica—he replaces Roslin's modest desk with a larger, elaborate one, replaces the population count whiteboard with a portrait of himself, and keeps a harem aboard the landed Colonial One.
*After a whole year, everyone is still living in tents. There is a vital shortage of medicine, the military is of no use, and labor conditions are apparently intolerable. Baltar's administration is apparently as incompetent as Roslin feared.
**It is not clear whether these conditions are the result of admimistrative incompetence or the inherent difficulties of colonizing a marginally habitable planet.
***Of course, it was Baltar's idea to settle on a marginally habitable planet in the first place.
*It's ironic that the obligations of duty keep Lee Adama aboard Pegasus while everyone else goes planetside—he is a reserve officer, and promised to build his pilots a bar as soon as they found a habitable planet.
**Who says he didn't build a bar for them? However, despite building a bar, he would still command the Pegasus.
*Ron Moore has once again decided to play with viewer's expectations; in the podcast for "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]" Moore commented on how everyone assumed that ''Pegasus'' would be destroyed by the end of the episode, and thus he thought it would be a good twist to keep ''Pegasus'' alive as another ship in the Fleet. Here, many viewers assumed that the nuke that Baltar gave to Gina in "[[Epiphanies]]" would be used to destroy ''Pegasus'' this time, but it wasn't.
*29 people died between this episode and the preceding one? One or two Raptors were lost, and some Marines died on Caprica, but that doesn't seem high enough.
**Is it possible they took out all of the people who left in the raptors because they were not apart of the fleet at the end of the previous episode?
***They didn't remove Starbuck from the count when she left for Caprica at the beginning of Season 2.
****She left at the end of season one, before they started the count. But, they did not add her to the count when she returned with Helo, because the count rose by one.
**Maybe more people died during the attack on Caprica than was shown.
***Yet another possibility is the inclusion of the Caprica survivors in the count to offset many of the losses that had incurred in the rescue mission.
***Although they didn't actually talk about the losses, there was a shot of a wounded person being taken away on a stretcher after the Raptors returned from the [[Caprica]] [[SAR]] mission.
**There may have been a series of election-related riots or murders.
*The year gap for the Cylons to find the fleet at first seems odd. However, it was stated in the previous episode that the interference from the gas cloud surrounding it would hide the planet fairly well. The Cylons were slightly over a light year away, according to the Number Five. Searching something as large as the gas cloud likely is for a planet or fleet is, given the sensor range limitations, quite impressive to accomplish in months, even with general directional information from a light-year out. In addition, the radiation from the nuclear explosion aboard the ''[[Cloud Nine]]'' would, of course, only be traveling at the speed of light. Even a less catastrophic attempt to communicate the Colonial's new location would be limited to the speed of light. Of course, once the location was pinpointed, an FTL jump by the Cylons to pounce would be instantaneous.
*The population of New Caprica City is given as 39,192. There were just under 50,000 people in the Fleet before establishing the settlement, so that gives a figure of roughly 10,000 missing. It is uncertain how many were killed in the destruction of ''Cloud 9'' and surrounding Fleet ships but this loss along with any births and deaths that have taken place during the year since the election, leaves very few military personnel in the Orbital Defense. This almost certainly means that both ''Galactica'' and ''Pegasus'' will be extremely short on crew, as many military personnel will have been left on the planet. There was clearly no time to retrieve even selected members of the crews before the Fleet jumped.
**Watching the Fleet jump in slow-motion, you can count approximately 19 ships, which also gives a rough impression of the reduced size of the fleet. Other ships, including Colonial One and some Raptors, are landed on New Caprica and have presumably fallen into the hands of the Cylons.
**It is not explicitly said that all members of the New Caprica colony reside in New Caprica City. There may be outlying settlements, though none are named. One reason for this would simply be as a safeguard to keep a single nuclear strike from wiping out all of the fleet survivors.
***This would demonstrate Un-Baltar like prudence

== Notes ==
* '''According to Ron Moore's podcast, although Scifi Channel was willing to air this episode as a 90-minute special, it had to be heavily edited down for international distribution; outside of the United States, viewers will only see a 1 hour version of the episode, which Moore regards as "almost incomprehensible".''' Many plot threads, such as the entire Cally/Tyrol subplot, were completely removed from the one hour version. This may not be the case in the UK however as Skyone (the channel that broadcasts the show in that country) previously showed the full 90 minute version of Stargate SG1 episode 'Threads' and may well do the same for this episode.
* Ron Moore's podcast for episode 13, [[Epiphanies]], states that the Nuke given to Gina will come back in this episode, to the benefit of the Cylons.
*Admiral Adama watches Pyramid games and is a fan of the Picon Panthers.
*In RDM's podcast for the previous episode, he said that in early drafts of this special 90 minute long episode, the writers actually tried to make it a 2 hour special, but this was soon dropped (these times are including commercials).
*The election board appears to have a definitive list of the names of all of the ships in [[The Fleet (RDM)]]. Not all of them are clearly visible, but this would seem to indicate that the writers do have an actual list that they get new ship names from. Ship names visible on the chart are: Demetrius, Diomedes, Embla Brokk, Enkidu, Epheme, Galactica, Gideon, Gemenon Traveller, Greenleaf, Monarch, Odysseus, Pegasus, Persephone, Prometheus, Swordfish
*The framed photo of President Roslin and [[Billy Keikeya]] was still on her desk during the election.
*When Roslin "won" the rigged election results, Roslin received 24,265 votes, while Baltar recieved 22,266. This means that the elligible voters in the Fleet number 46,531. In the podcast, RDM explains that he quickly came up with these numbers, to try to reflect roughly how many survivors are below the voting age.
*Toward the end of the episode, President Baltar refers to a government body called the "People's Council". This may be the proportionally elected lower house mentioned in by RDM in his [http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/index.html#a000016 blog post] on January 30, 2005.
*[[Hera]] is seen on New Caprica in the same white cradle that Baltar had a vision of her being in in "[[Scattered]]", etc. According to RDM's podcast it's actually the exact same cradle.
*Tyrol's union speech is an almost word for word quote of Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964. According to Ron Moore and David Eick in the podcast, they even got permission from Savio's widow to use it (even though, due to the way copyright laws work from back then, they could have just used it without permission, they felt they should get it). As a result, it's even listed in the credits: "Mario Savio speech excerpted courtesy of: Lynne Hollander Savio". Actor Aaron Douglas (Chief [[Galen Tyrol|Tyrol]]) actually studied film of Savio, so all of the hand gestures Tyrol makes when he gives the speech are gestures that Savio actually used.
*Baltar's portrait of himself does not have the 'cut corners' as seen in most (all?) other papers and photos in the show.

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==
*''Dr. Cottle decides Cally is ready to return to duty:''
:'''Cottle:''' You're done here. I'm kickin' you out of here and sending you back to work.
:'''Cally:''' (muffled, because her jaw is immobilized) Work??? Like this?
:'''Cottle:''' You gotta love a woman who can complain even with her jaw wired shut.

*"Would you mind telling me what's going on? I'm not a frakking Cylon, I'm not…(''sees the other Cavil in the cell'')…oh. Well, okay then."
*:—'''Brother Cavil'''

*"Gods help us."
*:-'''Admiral Adama''' over the objection of [[Edward James Olmos]] (podcast)

*''Trying to bring order to a Union meeting:''
:'''Tyrol:''' Everyone, please be quiet. (''crowd ignores him'')
:'''Cally:''' Hey! Shut the frak up! (''crowd quiets down'')

*'''Admiral Adama:''' We're leaving. But we'll be back.

*''The Cylons occupy New Caprica:''
:'''Tyrol:''' "What do you want to do now, Captain?"
:'''Starbuck:''' "The same thing we always do. Fight them until we can't."

== Official Statements ==

From the official site (http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/):
When Baltar wins the vote, Roslin considers stealing the election because she believes he is a Cylon collaborator.

== Guest Stars ==
*[[Richard Hatch]] as [[Tom Zarek]]
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001777/ Dean Stockwell] as [[Cavil|Brother Cavil]]
*[[Michael Trucco]] as [[Samuel Anders]]
*[[Kate Vernon]] as [[Ellen Tigh]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0722413/ Donnelly Rhodes] as Dr. [[Cottle]]
*[[Callum Keith Rennie]] as [[Leoben Conoy]]
*[[Matthew Bennett]] as [[Aaron Doral]]
*Rekha Sharma as [[Tory Foster]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0443286/ David Kaye] as [[James McManus]]
*Alisen Down as Jean Barclay
*Winston Rekert as Priest

{{Episode List}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Anne Cofell Saunders]]
[[Category:Episodes written by Mark Verheiden]]
[[Category:Episodes directed by Michael Rymer]]

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-13T00:36:06Z

Antagonist: /* Where should this error go? */

== The Cliffhanger ==

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the [[Demand Peace]] movement makes its way to ''Pegasus'' and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow ''Galactica'' (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that ''Pegasus'' brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, ''Pegasus'' may end up doing a "[[The Living Legend, Part II|Commander Cain charge]]" at the start of Season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:::It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. [[User:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]]

:You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own ''guesses/fanfic ideas'' without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::::I believe that the info is coming from [http://greycoupon.livejournal.com/3808.html BIG SPOILERS]. Don't know the validity of it though.
:::::Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from [http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season2b.html here]. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --[[User:LeobenConoy|LeobenConoy]] 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

:::::::: It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::::::::: Well, actually, [[user:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]] was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in ''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'' Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --[[User:Nyiz|Nyiz]] 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== The Peace Proposal ==

I haven't actually seen "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Speechless ==
Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)
[[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
That was totally awesome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Well Then... ==

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --[[User:Michael|Michael]] 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --[[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection ==

I don't think that the ''analysis'' section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

: ''Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "[[The Farm]]" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".''

Anyone agree or disagree? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: To expand my point further, ''Conoy'' believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the ''Cylons'' share his belief. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== DubyaBaltar ==

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. ''Remember, Remember the Fifth of November''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, Adar said that first. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::See the dialogue section of [[Six Degrees of Separation]] for your answer Sgtpayne. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Does anyone remember... ==

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an ''All in the Family'' episode guide. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Got it. On a side note, there are lots of ''really'' sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Source?==

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mario_Savio This is confirmed]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is [[Wikipedia: Naturalistic science fiction|"naturalistic" science fiction]], after all. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Gina's Scars==
We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on ''Pegasus'' in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Playa==
At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw [[Playa Palacios|"Miss Exclusive"]], though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:She's not in the credits. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Survivor count==
There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "''A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "[[The Captain's Hand]]". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely''"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of ''Part 1'' would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "[[Downloaded]]" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

::::Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about '''thought''', not '''fact'''. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::::Really? I had always assumed that it was controlled by mutant space monkeys. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 17:21, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Cloud Nine bodycount. ==

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.
''
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
**The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
***Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.''

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet.
Or am I completely loosing my mind [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).

== Where should this error go? ==
When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, [[Colonial One]] was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but ''paint chips''? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)
::I'd prefer to eschew the fanwankery and note it as the continuity glitch it is. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:28, 12 March 2006 (CST)
:::'Fanwankery'? It is completely plausible that what I said ''might'' have happened, so how can you conclude that it was a glitch. There are many ways paint like that could have come off. Perhaps when they painted the seal on Colonial One they used a paint not suitable for atmospheric re-entry and it got burned off. Maybe there is some sort of corrosive rain on the plannet that solubilizes lower quality paint. Perhaps Baltar didn't like the design on the seal. The point is that even though it was most likely a continuity glitch it is not ''nesscearily'' one. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 18:36, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== 6's credits voiceover ==
Should it be part of this episode? It seems that there is no discussion of it here or anywhere else. -- [[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 14:426, 12 March 2006 (EST)
:That was a commercial for Season 3, not part of this episode. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 13:54, 12 March 2006 (CST)

== Firefly connection ==

Greenleaf and Persephone; both were planets in Firefly. I noticed the Greenleaf back in Sacrifice, but this episode was the first time that I saw or heard Persephone. It's a nice little homage to Firefly, if it was even on purpose. --[[User:FIDS|FIDS]] 15:20, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II/Archive2

2006-03-12T19:18:05Z

Antagonist: /* Where should this error go? */

== The Cliffhanger ==

I'm betting that Baltar's little gift to the [[Demand Peace]] movement makes its way to ''Pegasus'' and is about to destroy or mortally damage the battlestar in this season closer. Mortally damaging it makes more sense to allow ''Galactica'' (and the show) to gather some of the new resources that ''Pegasus'' brought before it has to be removed from the picture. Perhaps, in coordination with a probable Cylon attack, ''Pegasus'' may end up doing a "[[The Living Legend, Part II|Commander Cain charge]]" at the start of Season 3. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:52, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quite drinking...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 12:02, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::Is it just me, or does the second season seem to be bouncing from cliffhanger to cliffhanger, with the in-between episodes being nothing but filler? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:08, 13 February 2006 (EST)

:::It isn't just you... Looks like I picked one hell of a week to quit sniffing glue. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:22, 13 February 2006 (EST)

::::I don't mind the "filler" episodes. I believe you need them to set up future stories down the road. I believe PEGASUS will stick around for one or two episodes next year(Gives them time to strip her down)....Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines!--[[User:Quig|Quig]] 16:36, 15 February 2006 (EST)

There's no cliffhanger, really. The Cylons win, humanity is occupied and the ships of the fleet are essentially empty with everyone down on Cylon-occupied New Caprica. The show is completely different from here on out. Cloud Nine is gone (which from a production standpoint makes sense--- no need for a planet-like ship when they have an actual planet) and all the leads but Lee, Adama and possibly Sharon are on the planet, hoping not to be killed by their new Cylon overlords. It's awesome. Oh, girlBilly seems to be sticking around as a character as well. [[User:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]]

:You have no idea; that's just fanfic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::Could one or the other of you please explain what that last enormous edit-and-reversion was all about? Numbertwelve, have you seen the episode in question? Are you passing on reports from other sources, and if so, can you identify them? Merv, are you familiar with a fanfic that resembles his description? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:18, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::Well, it sounds like he was just posting his own ''guesses/fanfic ideas'' without any basis on actual material, so I cleaned it up. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 21:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::::I believe that the info is coming from [http://greycoupon.livejournal.com/3808.html BIG SPOILERS]. Don't know the validity of it though.
:::::Based on the what I've read of the Part I summary, I'd say that the information was actually accurate. That said, I'm not sure this site really wants to post detailed episode summaries before the episode has actually aired anywhere, especially when we have no way of confirming the source.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:35, 4 March 2006 (CST)

:::::: In all likelihood, numbertwelve's comments stem from [http://www.patriotresource.com/bg/insights/spoilers/season2b.html here]. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 03:24, 8 March 2006 (CST)

::::::: Judging by that picture, I think those spoilers might be right, though I seriously hope they are dead wrong, anyone else hope this? --[[User:LeobenConoy|LeobenConoy]] 02:30, 10 March 2006 (TST)

:::::::: It certainly would be a heck of a sharp turn for the series, but, y'know, I'm OK with that. RDM really kinda needs to keep making sharp turns to keep the series from falling too much into the established track of the Original Series, for one thing. For another thing, I like surprises :-) I don't want this story to become too predictable. Actually, when I look back over the two seasons to date, RDM et alia have not allowed us to settle into anything like a routine for more than a few episodes before they kick over the tables again. That's a good thing. That said, if the spoilers are in fact correct...it's going to be a long six months 'til we find out how the situation resolves itself...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:12, 9 March 2006 (CST)

::::::::: Well, actually, [[user:numbertwelve|numbertwelve]] was right! I don't know who he/she is, but (s)he knew what'll happen exactly in ''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]'' Anyway, it's the best ep so far! --[[User:Nyiz|Nyiz]] 16:14, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== The Peace Proposal ==

I haven't actually seen "[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]]", yet (I don't have cable, so I'm basically watching via DVD as time allows), but reading the summary, I see no mention of the Cylon peace proposal in the story as aired. It looks as though the preliminary data for the episodes was somewhat misleading, and that the peace proposal won't come until Part II. The Part II article, however, still reflects the old information. Should this be changed now? Or just wait for Friday's airing and the full summary?--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 10:32, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Speechless ==
Holy crap they turned everything on its head. I can't think of a better way of stating the obvious. ONE YEAR LATER!?!?!? Crap. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 22:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Yep...and we'll have to wait about that frakkin' long to find out WTF happens next...:)
[[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 22:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, look at it this way - if they ever want to bring [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] back due to chronology issues, they now have an excuse. Actually, I'm surprised they didn't have the character (if not the actor) doing a cameo in the schooltent.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:23, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::I personally was asking, "Where's the kicker?" Well, nothing like a second Cylon occupation to do that for you. As for October...hell, they haven't even started shooting the season yet. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 22:32, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::You really have to find it pretty ironic that Baltar's fraked over the Colonies again. He gives Gina the bomb, fraks her, she blows up Cloud 9 (and Gods know how many ships she took with her in that blast) and Baltar forces everyone to colonize the plantet... and the Cylons find it because of the nuclear blast. How's that for a kicker? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:36, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Katee Sackhoff has to grow out her hair. She can't keep using that wig all season. Well, and the writers haven't figured out what the hell they're going to do now :P [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:06, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::I'm not sure when this episode was filmed, but she still has a month to go before they start shooting Season 3, according to SciFi. I'm sure Moore and friends have plenty of ideas to go with. The questions posted for this episode should give some possible ideas, if they even read this thing. :P --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
That was totally awesome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: I was on pins and needles the entire time. It was so good! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] 11:56, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Well Then... ==

Wasn't that something. I glanced over the rumors prior, but it has to be seen to get the real effect. That, and I was hoping they were dead wrong. --[[User:Michael|Michael]] 22:16, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought generally the execution of these spoilers was much better than my expections. --[[User:Gougef|Frankie Gouge]] 00:10, 11 March 2006 (EST)

== "Rampant speculation" re Starbuck/Conoy connection ==

I don't think that the ''analysis'' section is the place for something with little backing... at least currently.

: ''Although this is rampant speculation, given the warped obsession/relationship that Leoben has with Starbuck, is it possible that Starbuck's stolen egg cells from "[[The Farm]]" were fertilized with genetic material from the Leoben model to create a new Hybrid? The Cylons do seem to think she's "special".''

Anyone agree or disagree? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: To expand my point further, ''Conoy'' believed that Starbuck was special. Just because Conoy is a Cylon doesn't mean the ''Cylons'' share his belief. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:00, 10 March 2006 (CST)

No arguements here. I've always been fuzzy on the exact parameters of the "analysis" section, however, this thought occurred to me when I remembered that A) They said that Starbuck's missing ovaries would be mentioned before the end of the season, B) It's going to be a major plot point in season 3.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:03, 10 March 2006 (CST)

: Well, in keeping with the original inspiration for the Wiki -- The Lurker's Guide to B5 -- the analysis section has always analyzed the episode. For instance, what the episode had to say, how that fit in to the grand tapestry, how that fit into real life, and things of that nature. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:12, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Long live the Lurkers guide! Best guide ever. There's also a B5 wiki being created (see my user page for the link). --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:25, 10 March 2006 (CST)

== DubyaBaltar ==

I'd never put this in the actual wiki article, but does it strike anyone else who many jabs they're getting it at another ridiculously incompetent president? "I don't have to listen to the facts...I'm the president". etc. ''Remember, Remember the Fifth of November''.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:08, 10 March 2006 (CST)
: Though I don't think GWB has harems. Mr. Nice Gaius seems to have him beat there. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:11, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:I thought it was a reference to Roslin and Adar's statements about "the nice thing about being President..." --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:13, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Well, Adar said that first. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:15, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::Plus, Baltar was good friends with Adar prior to the attack. The womanizing was just good 'ol self-serving Baltar. And, when was Gaius ever nice? --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:28, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::See the dialogue section of [[Six Degrees of Separation]] for your answer Sgtpayne. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:31, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:::::Just checked the page requested, and I'm not sure that's helping the argument. The statement is defensive in nature. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:37, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It's not an argument, it's an explanation as to why we're calling him "Mr. Nice Gaius". [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 20:51, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Does anyone remember... ==

... that crack Cottle made to Cally regarding women talking * (Actually, the good Doctor said "Complain") even when their jaws are wired shut? If so, we should note it under the dialogue section and perhaps on Cottle's page (he seems to have a penchant for sexist dialogue). -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:18, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:You know, Joe, I don't know why you point out "Cottle made a sexist remark here" the times that he does (Downloaded, etc.) I mean that's the type of character he is. I mean, we wouldn't list off "well, Archie Bunker did this sexist thing" in an ''All in the Family'' episode guide. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)
::Good point. Still, since it is a part of his personality, I believe it should be noted appropriately. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 23:29, 10 March 2006 (CST)
:Got it. On a side note, there are lots of ''really'' sexist things Cottle could have said about a woman who can't open her mouth, so maybe he should get some credit for holding back... --[[User:JohnH|JohnH]] 10:39, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::None of us, neither the show or any users here, had even had that implication at any time enter our minds. Complete non sequitor. Disgusting to bring up such crudeness, Mr.JohnH. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:38, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Source?==

"Tyrol's union speech alludes to Mario Savio's address during the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in 1964."-->Can I get confirmation on that?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:22, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mario_Savio This is confirmed]. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:34, 10 March 2006 (CST)

::Thanks. Great that the show is so political.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 23:41, 10 March 2006 (CST)

:::I don't think it's political as much as it is human. This is [[Wikipedia: Naturalistic science fiction|"naturalistic" science fiction]], after all. --[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:56, 10 March 2006 (CST)

==Gina's Scars==
We can clearly see that Gina's back is still badly scarred from her treatment on ''Pegasus'' in this episode. However, I seem to recall her back being completely healed in "Epiphanies". Can anybody confirm? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:Er, they're on her lower/mid back, while when she was wearing the tank top, you could only see her upper shoulder blades. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 11:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Playa==
At the end of the episode (near the surrender), I thought I saw [[Playa Palacios|"Miss Exclusive"]], though it may have just been a similar-looking blonde. Can someone check this? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 11:02, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:She's not in the credits. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:03, 11 March 2006 (CST)

==Survivor count==
There's a drop of 29 between part 1 and 2: "''A more reasonable explanation is that there was a late update in the survivor count that took into account those who died off-screen during the Cylon attack on the Pegasus in "[[The Captain's Hand]]". Soldiers who are killed are often listed as MIA (Missing in Action) until they can be confirmed as KIA (Killed in Action). In the aftermath of the attack on the Pegasus, it would have taken a while to determine the exact number of crewmen and pilots killed. Also, there were probably a number of crewmen who died from injuries afterwards. As a result, a delay in updating the survivor count is quite likely''"--->No. The survivor count at the beginning of ''Part 1'' would have accounted for these losses. Part 2 takes place weeks, maybe even 2 months past "Captain's Hand"; even "[[Downloaded]]" comes in before there. 2 episodes and about 2 months passed, and we saw no further losses from Captain's Hand beyond the 5 on screen. And the Survivor Count is omniscient. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 15:05, 11 March 2006 (CST)
: Once would assume that the Fleet has it share of black market thugs and suicidal people... Not everything has to be Cylon related. Just a thought. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:22, 11 March 2006 (CST)
::Yes, and I have always argued as such...but then that makes the static pop count from end of Captain's Hand through LDYB part I unrealistic itself. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 16:24, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::Well, one would assume that people are reported as missing prior to being reported as dead. Hence the seemingly unrealistic count changes. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:32, 11 March 2006 (CST)

::::Even though I STILL think those losses are most likely late figures from "[[The Captain's Hand]]" (I'm not going to argue about this), another possible reason for the drop could be the results of election-related riots/murders. Stuff like that happens. Either that or the writers just screwed up.--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 16:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::And, ultimately, that is the problem... it's all about '''thought''', not '''fact'''. Until we know for certain why these variances occur (and why they register when they do), we could think about it until our brains cry for more oxygen. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 16:58, 11 March 2006 (CST)

:::::Judging by our current standards and conventions, and just logic, no, it is impossible for these to be "left over" number from 3 full episodes ago. Think what you want, but don't add it back to the page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:49, 11 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: Just keep in mind, the "omniscient" Survivor Count is controlled by the writers just like everything else. And writers do make mistakes occasionally. Besides what other plausible explanations are there?--[[User:GreenDalek|GreenDalek]] 22:41, 11 March 2006 (CST)

== Cloud Nine bodycount. ==

Am I going completely fuzzy-headed here, or is the fact that Cloud Nine was destroyed before the transition to New Caprica being completely overlooked.
''
*How many people died in the Cloud Nine explosion?
**The Cloud Nine explosion also destroyed ships near it. Given the stated size of the New Caprica population along with subtracting the minimal crew sizes needed to maintain the ships in orbit, you can estimate that approximately 3000 to 5000 people died.
***Actually, we have no idea how many people were still crewing the civilian ships in the Fleet when Galactica and Pegasus jumped away, so it could actually have been thousands less than that.''

The answers to the questions, as I remember what I saw, are completely irrelivant. Noone was colonizing the planet yet.
Or am I completely loosing my mind [[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 02:09, 12 March 2006 (CST)
*No, you're quite sane. Admiral Adama had ordered the first teams to New Caprica just before the commercial break, Baltar's last night with Gina, the inauguration, and the blast. There probably wouldn't have been more than a handful of raptor teams on the surface at the time--not enough to make any appreciable dent in the population figures. --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:51, 12 March 2006 (EST).

== Where should this error go? ==
When we see it parked on the surface of New Caprica, [[Colonial One]] was missing the Colonial/presidential seal that we've seen before on its port side. Nobody would have scraped it off the hull. I know the people down there are desperate for resources, but ''paint chips''? --[[User:BlueResistance|BlueResistance]] 09:56, 12 March 2006 (EST)
::Well the real answer is that they crew just plain old forgot to put it in the model, but forcontinuity's sake, it could be hypothesized that someone discontent with the Baltar Administration scraped off the seal in the middle of the night as if to say 'this man isn't fit to have the presidential seal on his office/spaceship.' --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:18, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Talk:Number One/Archive 1

2006-03-08T03:12:32Z

Antagonist:

== Categories ==
This page doesn't have any categories. I don't wish to read the spoiler stuff, but if somebody could kindly sort it I'd appreciate it. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 11:31, 2 March 2006 (CST)
:Well, having stumbled into some spoiler-ish discussion on a talk page, I believe that categories on this page might end up being a spoiler themselves. I guess we can put categories on this once the cat is out of the proverbial bag. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)
:: We'll find out tonight, I guess. I'm looking forward to it. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:07, 3 March 2006 (CST)

== Article name ==

I believe it should be Cavil, not Brother Cavil, same as it's Cally, not Specialist Cally.
:Yep. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:20, 4 March 2006 (CST)

== Cylon? ==

Just from speculation based on the 'not at any of the cylon meetings' line, which is so similar to Six's line.

Also if he is a cylon he could be 'Number 1,' as that so far the lower the number the higher the age of the cylon. Perhaps that makes him the 'leader', that is, if cylon's have leaders in their 'society based on unity'.

Just a guess--[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 21:12, 7 March 2006 (CST)

Viper (TRS)

2006-02-26T22:54:02Z

Antagonist: /* Performance */

:''This article discusses the two Viper-class fighters seen in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]]. For information on the Viper used in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]], see [[Viper (TOS)]].''

[[Image:Bsg-viper-1.jpg|thumb|Viper Mk. II (credit: Gabriel C. Koerner)]]
[[Image:BSG-Mark-VII.jpg|thumb|Viper Mk. VII (credit: Zoic Studios)]]

The '''Viper''' is the [[Colonial Defense Force]]'s primary space superiority fighter / attack craft. Capable of atmospheric flight, the Viper is a single-seat craft mounting two kinetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]s), as well as having hardpoints beneath the wings for mounting missiles, munitions pods and other ordnance ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

The Viper was originally introduced into Colonial service shortly before the outbreak of the [[Cylon War]]. However, it was the Mark II variant, designed specifically for use with the new Colonial [[Original battlestar (RDM)|battlestars]] that is best remembered.

The Mark II served with distinction throughout the Cylon War, proving a capable fighting vehicle that won reknown across the [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]] and is regarded as one of the reasons the Colonials did not suffer defeat at the hands of the Cylons.

The Mark II remained in service after the end of the war, but was subsequently superceded by newer models. At the time of the renewed Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies, the Mark VII was the front-line variant of the Viper design, retaining the Mark II general layout but using fully networked systems providing superior battle management and fight information for the pilot.

Ironically, it was the incorporation of the new integrated systems that prevented the majority of Mark VII's from being effective during the Cylon attack: as with the majority of Colonial Fleet, the Mark VII suffer fatal computer system failures on contact with Cylon forces. Thanks to a [[Number Six|Cylon agent's]] relationship with Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]], scientist and programmer of the navigation software project, the [[CNP|navigational software]] in use onboard the majority of Colonial Fleet vessels contained backdoors that allow the Cylons to infiltrate a vessel's network by [[wireless]] signals and disable its power systems. While the problem could be overcome by removing the navigational upgrade compromised by the Cylons, this information is not discovered in time to be of major benefit to the surprised and hard-pressed Colonial forces.

== Atmospheric Operations ==
The Viper is designed for atmospheric as well as space-based operations. However, Vipers consume more fuel during atmospheric operations than in the vacuum of space: once in an atmosphere, the engines must run continuously to retain airflow over the wing lifting surfaces. Depending on the composition of the atmosphere itself, this can place severe strain on the Viper's engines ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]).

Due to their wing configuration, Vipers may also suffer from poor handling at low speeds within an atmosphere.

== Life Support ==
Viper cockpits are pressurised and heated, but they are flown with the pilot wearing a [[flight suit]] that is capable of providing full life support should ejection be required ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]). The life support systems are built-in to the back of the pilot's seat itself, together with the flight harness. Following an ejection, the back of the seat separates automatically, effectively becoming a backpack for the pilot ([[Act of Contrition]]).

Should ejection take place within an atmosphere, the life support backpack / seat back also incorporates a parachute.

== Technical Specifications ==

=== Dimensions ===
Mark II
*Length: 8.4082 m
*Wingspan: 4.7168 m
*Height: 2.7247 m (in flight, without landing gear. Landing gear adds approximately 0.5m.)

Mark VII
*Length: 9.8643 m
*Wingspan: 5.61 m
*Height: 2.9508 m (in flight, without landing gear.){{ref|companion}}

=== Propulsion ===
*Mark II: 1x Voram VM2-D15 upper turbothrust engine, 2x Voram VM3-D22 turbothrust engines; 2x reverse thrust motors; [[RCS]] points
*Mark VII: 3x turbothrust engines mounted aft; [[RCS]] points; angular exhaust nozzle design suggest possible thrust-vectoring.

=== Armaments ===
*Mark II: 2x MEC-A6 30mm Thraxon forward-firing kinetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]) mounted in the wing roots with 800 round magazine; dorsal storage bay for 8x HD-70 Lightning Javelin missiles (optional 50 megaton nuclear warhead){{ref|armaments}}
*Mark VII: 3x forward-firing kinetic energy weapons (KEW); 2 mounted towards the outboard sections of the wings; 1 mounted in the vertical stabiliser
*Both: Weapon hardpoints for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings

=== Instruments ===
*Mark II: [[Radio Magnetic Indicator]]
*Mark II: [[Torque Percent Gauge]]
*Mark II: [[Attitude Indicator]]
*Mark II: [[Altimeter]]
*Mark II and VII: [[Computers#Colonial Avionics|Cockpit Avionics]]

=== Crew ===
*Pilot in Terrell ES 24C ejection seat. {{ref_label|companion|2|a}}

=== Performance ===

*Mark II: Can rotate 360 degrees vertically in .35 seconds

== Notes ==
Since ''Galactica'' only had 40 Viper Mark II's aboard, they needed as many fighters as possible, thus the remaining Mark VII's were refitted and stripped of their advanced computer systems. However, since this is not how the Mark VII was designed, it makes the craft increasingly difficult to handle and can only be flown by the most experienced pilots such as [[Lee Adama|Apollo]] and [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]. ''Galactica'' has roughly 6-8 Mark VII's on board after the Cylon attack ("[[Scattered]]", "Flight of the Phoenix"). (source: [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ships/ships/|official Scifi.com series website])

== Layout ==
[[Image:Bsg-viper-2.jpg|thumb|right|Viper Mk. II (credit: Gabriel C. Koerner)]]
The Viper is a long, sleek vehicle that can be split into two parts, fore and aft.

*Fore section: comprises the nose back to the cockpit. This contains the forward RCS systems for manoeuvring the craft; the forward landing gear; the main [[avionics]] and sensor packages, plus the single-seat cockpit itself
*Stern section: comprises the main engines, fuel tanks, wings and vertial stabiliser. The wings themselves contain the kinetic energy weapons ("guns") and their munitions storage and feeds. Hardpoints beneath the wings allow missiles, munitions pods and other items to be rack-mounted ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]). The wings roots contain the main landing gear. This section of a Viper also contains a number of RCS manoeuvring packs.

The stern section of a Viper is distinctive because of the offset "intakes" mounted just behind the cockpit. The port / starboard "intake" nacelles incorporate small but powerful reverse thrust engines that can quickly counter a Viper's forward momentum in an emergency ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

== Sources ==
#{{note|dimensions}}Dimensions provided by [http://www.leestringer.com/ Lee Stringer], one of the VFX Animators of the Mini-Series. These are for the CGI models, which are based on but not identical to the the fullsize props. Source: [http://www.starshipbuilder.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000012.html Starshipbuilder.com forums]
#{{note|companion}}{{note_label|companion|2|a}}Armaments listings and Ejector seat details from David Bassom's Battlestar Galactica Official Companion.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Military]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Viper (TRS)

2006-02-26T22:53:32Z

Antagonist: /* Technical Specifications */

:''This article discusses the two Viper-class fighters seen in the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]]. For information on the Viper used in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]], see [[Viper (TOS)]].''

[[Image:Bsg-viper-1.jpg|thumb|Viper Mk. II (credit: Gabriel C. Koerner)]]
[[Image:BSG-Mark-VII.jpg|thumb|Viper Mk. VII (credit: Zoic Studios)]]

The '''Viper''' is the [[Colonial Defense Force]]'s primary space superiority fighter / attack craft. Capable of atmospheric flight, the Viper is a single-seat craft mounting two kinetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]s), as well as having hardpoints beneath the wings for mounting missiles, munitions pods and other ordnance ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

The Viper was originally introduced into Colonial service shortly before the outbreak of the [[Cylon War]]. However, it was the Mark II variant, designed specifically for use with the new Colonial [[Original battlestar (RDM)|battlestars]] that is best remembered.

The Mark II served with distinction throughout the Cylon War, proving a capable fighting vehicle that won reknown across the [[Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Twelve Colonies]] and is regarded as one of the reasons the Colonials did not suffer defeat at the hands of the Cylons.

The Mark II remained in service after the end of the war, but was subsequently superceded by newer models. At the time of the renewed Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies, the Mark VII was the front-line variant of the Viper design, retaining the Mark II general layout but using fully networked systems providing superior battle management and fight information for the pilot.

Ironically, it was the incorporation of the new integrated systems that prevented the majority of Mark VII's from being effective during the Cylon attack: as with the majority of Colonial Fleet, the Mark VII suffer fatal computer system failures on contact with Cylon forces. Thanks to a [[Number Six|Cylon agent's]] relationship with Dr. [[Gaius Baltar]], scientist and programmer of the navigation software project, the [[CNP|navigational software]] in use onboard the majority of Colonial Fleet vessels contained backdoors that allow the Cylons to infiltrate a vessel's network by [[wireless]] signals and disable its power systems. While the problem could be overcome by removing the navigational upgrade compromised by the Cylons, this information is not discovered in time to be of major benefit to the surprised and hard-pressed Colonial forces.

== Atmospheric Operations ==
The Viper is designed for atmospheric as well as space-based operations. However, Vipers consume more fuel during atmospheric operations than in the vacuum of space: once in an atmosphere, the engines must run continuously to retain airflow over the wing lifting surfaces. Depending on the composition of the atmosphere itself, this can place severe strain on the Viper's engines ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]).

Due to their wing configuration, Vipers may also suffer from poor handling at low speeds within an atmosphere.

== Life Support ==
Viper cockpits are pressurised and heated, but they are flown with the pilot wearing a [[flight suit]] that is capable of providing full life support should ejection be required ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]). The life support systems are built-in to the back of the pilot's seat itself, together with the flight harness. Following an ejection, the back of the seat separates automatically, effectively becoming a backpack for the pilot ([[Act of Contrition]]).

Should ejection take place within an atmosphere, the life support backpack / seat back also incorporates a parachute.

== Technical Specifications ==

=== Dimensions ===
Mark II
*Length: 8.4082 m
*Wingspan: 4.7168 m
*Height: 2.7247 m (in flight, without landing gear. Landing gear adds approximately 0.5m.)

Mark VII
*Length: 9.8643 m
*Wingspan: 5.61 m
*Height: 2.9508 m (in flight, without landing gear.){{ref|companion}}

=== Propulsion ===
*Mark II: 1x Voram VM2-D15 upper turbothrust engine, 2x Voram VM3-D22 turbothrust engines; 2x reverse thrust motors; [[RCS]] points
*Mark VII: 3x turbothrust engines mounted aft; [[RCS]] points; angular exhaust nozzle design suggest possible thrust-vectoring.

=== Armaments ===
*Mark II: 2x MEC-A6 30mm Thraxon forward-firing kinetic energy weapons ([[KEW]]) mounted in the wing roots with 800 round magazine; dorsal storage bay for 8x HD-70 Lightning Javelin missiles (optional 50 megaton nuclear warhead){{ref|armaments}}
*Mark VII: 3x forward-firing kinetic energy weapons (KEW); 2 mounted towards the outboard sections of the wings; 1 mounted in the vertical stabiliser
*Both: Weapon hardpoints for mounting missiles / munitions pods, etc. under the wings

=== Instruments ===
*Mark II: [[Radio Magnetic Indicator]]
*Mark II: [[Torque Percent Gauge]]
*Mark II: [[Attitude Indicator]]
*Mark II: [[Altimeter]]
*Mark II and VII: [[Computers#Colonial Avionics|Cockpit Avionics]]

=== Crew ===
*Pilot in Terrell ES 24C ejection seat. {{ref_label|companion|2|a}}

=== Performance ===

*Mark II: Can turn rotate 360 degrees vertically in .35 seconds

== Notes ==
Since ''Galactica'' only had 40 Viper Mark II's aboard, they needed as many fighters as possible, thus the remaining Mark VII's were refitted and stripped of their advanced computer systems. However, since this is not how the Mark VII was designed, it makes the craft increasingly difficult to handle and can only be flown by the most experienced pilots such as [[Lee Adama|Apollo]] and [[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]]. ''Galactica'' has roughly 6-8 Mark VII's on board after the Cylon attack ("[[Scattered]]", "Flight of the Phoenix"). (source: [http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/ships/ships/|official Scifi.com series website])

== Layout ==
[[Image:Bsg-viper-2.jpg|thumb|right|Viper Mk. II (credit: Gabriel C. Koerner)]]
The Viper is a long, sleek vehicle that can be split into two parts, fore and aft.

*Fore section: comprises the nose back to the cockpit. This contains the forward RCS systems for manoeuvring the craft; the forward landing gear; the main [[avionics]] and sensor packages, plus the single-seat cockpit itself
*Stern section: comprises the main engines, fuel tanks, wings and vertial stabiliser. The wings themselves contain the kinetic energy weapons ("guns") and their munitions storage and feeds. Hardpoints beneath the wings allow missiles, munitions pods and other items to be rack-mounted ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]). The wings roots contain the main landing gear. This section of a Viper also contains a number of RCS manoeuvring packs.

The stern section of a Viper is distinctive because of the offset "intakes" mounted just behind the cockpit. The port / starboard "intake" nacelles incorporate small but powerful reverse thrust engines that can quickly counter a Viper's forward momentum in an emergency ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

== Sources ==
#{{note|dimensions}}Dimensions provided by [http://www.leestringer.com/ Lee Stringer], one of the VFX Animators of the Mini-Series. These are for the CGI models, which are based on but not identical to the the fullsize props. Source: [http://www.starshipbuilder.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000012.html Starshipbuilder.com forums]
#{{note|companion}}{{note_label|companion|2|a}}Armaments listings and Ejector seat details from David Bassom's Battlestar Galactica Official Companion.

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Colonial Military]]
[[Category:Colonial Craft]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Talk:Downloaded/Archive 1

2006-02-26T22:52:11Z

Antagonist:

If this episode has been dropped so Resurrection can be split into two, then aren't we still missing an episode? --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 00:06, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:Yes. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 21 November 2005 (EST)

:: I've heard new rumors that this ISN'T the Cylon POV episode; that this episode covers the fate of Galactica-Sharon, but the "totally" Cylon POV episode was another one entirely. There may be hope yet. Besides, I think at the least Lawless has actually filmed scenes for it; I don't know if the one that was scrapped ever went past script phase.

:::RDM says in the downloaded that this '''is''' the cylon POV episode. Plus, theres no time left for one this season, the season finale starts next week. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 17:52, 26 February 2006 (EST)

However, new developments: I got a link to a scan of the February edition of Scifi Magazine, in which they answer questions from the official messageboard: http://pics.livejournal.com/reedfem/pic/0008a1hf ---->I can't tell if Grace Park is being SARCASTIC or if she was serious. (BTW, like 5 of these questions are from me, notably the Blade Runner one, the Geena Davis one, and the "new evil Sharon?" one). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 12:51, 5 December 2005 (EST)
::For those interested, the full set of scans can be found here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/reedfem/158883.html?page=1 --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:34, 5 December 2005 (EST)

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I saw a copy of Simon in the cafe on Caprica. I'm removing the "possibly archival footage" thing. --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:24, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:They're saying it was a body double on TWOP. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:27, 24 February 2006 (EST)

::It's possible it might have been a different actor. What does TWOP stand for? --[[User:Mojorising1985|Mojorising1985]] 23:31, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:::http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:35, 24 February 2006 (EST)

This episode was very good. I have one problem with it: Not Enough Leoben Conoy. [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 23:37, 24 February 2006 (EST)

:Yeah, I was suprised we didn't see him on Caprica. I mean, they even had Simon (or at least who I believe is Simon).

:Someone claimed Leoben was on Caprica: where? I did not see him, though I will rewatch it. I will delete this info until it can be confirmed. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 00:58, 25 February 2006 (EST)

::You're totally right... he wasn't there. Not sure why, but he wasn't. [[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 01:05, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:::The TWOPers found a body double wearing his miniseries costume [http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9672/cap0118pd.png here]. ([http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3136156&view=findpost&p=4607381 link to post]) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 25 February 2006 (EST)
*He was there. He walked by 6 several times, and was sitting in the cafe. You don't see his face because they couldn't get the actor. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 01:15, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Blade Runner reference
I about fell off the couch when the cylons were referred to as "skin jobs"--George w chomsky

:Trust me, they know that we know. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 02:16, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Is it really Apollo in the picture of the Galactica crew that Sharon holds in her appartment? Because it's so small I can't be sure. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:30, 25 February 2006 (EST)

Can we get Roslin's "if I wanted to airlock a baby..." comment in the dialogue section? (both for its hilarity and the likelihood of it coming up later) I'd do it myself but I don't have a tape for the exact wording. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 14:09, 25 February 2006 (EST)

:Added that quote. Maybe these two questions should be added as well, but I'd like to know how others think about it: - Why did Roslin eventually decide to have the baby adopted instead of killing it? Why Was Baltar not notified of the baby being kept alive? Roslin never shared her suspicions of Baltar being a Cylon sympathizer. Were Admiral Adama and Col. Tigh even notified of this? --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 16:26, 25 February 2006 (EST)
:Check the Analysis sections: Roslin has no real "evidence" against Baltar, so she's not going to bring her suspicions into the open yet. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 17:48, 25 February 2006 (EST)
::That's my point, really. Roslin didn't even inform her vice-president. Even if she's doing it because of the presidential elections it wouldn't make sense, because Baltar seems opposed to abortion (and so he could use the accusation of Roslin being a baby killer against her).... --[[User:Gen00b|Gen00b]] 06:01, 26 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-19T02:38:24Z

Antagonist: /* Survivor Count */

==Episode Impressions==

Well I think that was a damn good episode, a good improvement over some of the previous episodes. Tricky for some article editing but overall I know you guys will do a great job on the page. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:02, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:Not bad at all. [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:05, 17 February 2006 (EST)

::I agree. Some tense moments, and the Baltar announcement kinda threw me for a second, but overall a refresing change of pace. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)

== Not ANOTHER Commander! ==

This episode was topnotch, yes. But this leaves us wikipedians with a bit of a problem. Enter "Commander Adama" and you get William Adama. We'll need a disambig for this new change. Betting that Lee's promotion is temporary, of course. And, for me at least, there's the matter of the new commander living long enough--Pegasus goes through commanders now like I go through a bag of cookies. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 23:08, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:Perhaps maybe the Pegasus will be around longer than we thought? [[User:Joemc72|Joe McCullough]] 23:10, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Or maybe we'll have another Adama cliffhanger, this time with Lee... -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:13, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Methinks those nuke hits will come back to haunt them (especially with the nuke Baltar took coming into play) and Adama will go for either, a) another space walk when the Pegasus goes boom or b) He will be aboard Galactica laughing at Tigh for still being a Colonel. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Personally, as a US Navy vet, I think this was a huge breach in protocol. Granted, I'm loving the show and plotwise it's a good move, the reality of it is that if anything, Tigh would have been promoted to Commander (and probably should have been after the ''Pegasus'' lost its two seniormost officers) and '''perhaps''' Lee promoted to Colonel as the XO. Obviously, there was the huge flareup from when Tigh had command of the fleet, but even still, as XO of ''Galactica'', it should have went to him.--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:19, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:I agree with you, and it might make for some good Tigh material later on, with him and Ellen being pissed off for being passed over. But I think because of the reactions he got within the fleet, there would be more trouble then its worth. --[[User:Bane Grievver|Bane Grievver]] 23:21, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::Pretty much what I was thinking as well, especially since ADM Adama and Tigh go way back, so he'll probably see this as a major snub. So again, as a plot issue, I think it works. But I think the whole thing probably could have been handled a bit more realistically. But that's just me. ^_^;;;--'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:25, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::Hey, all! New here. And same thoughts here, but not just from Tigh, but maybe from the fleet. Kara didn't seem to care one way or another (or, at least, didn't voice it), but I think some might be extremely angry that Lee went from Major to Commander in a month. [[User:Michael|Michael]] 23:29, 17 February 2006 (EST)
::::As much as it was a breach in protocol, [[Saul_Tigh|Col. Tigh]] might not be miffed as bad as everyone thinks. Recall from [[Scattered]], that he really wasn't interested in "the big chair". I'm thinking that Ellen may have the larger issue of the two. -[[User:Sgtpayne|Sgtpayne]] 23:41, 17 February 2006 (EST)
:::::True, but there is still the matter of OPLANs, NAVREGs (or whatever serves for the fleet). It was as much rules and regulations - some of the stuff that ADM Adama is supposed to adhere to, especially during wartime - as Tigh's preferences. Granted, I'm probably reading a bit much of real-world influences into this, and I understand that they did it for the plot, but again, I really expect some backlash to happen, both on-screen and somewhat amongst the really, really nitpicky fans. Like me. ^_- --'''[[User:Mitsukai|み使い]]''' '''''[[User_talk:Mitsukai|Mitsukai]]''''' 23:54, 17 February 2006 (EST)

Was Apollo promoted to Commander or simply given command of the Pegasus and stayed at the rank of Major ?. After all it is possible to be the Captain (and referred to as the Captain) of a ship without holding the rank of Captain. Maybe the same thing holds for the Commander designation. Although being given the pips does confuse things but it does seem strange that he jumped almost two command ranks in one go. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 02:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

: Just some thoughts. By its very nature the command structure of the Fleet must be looser than it would be in "normal" circumstances. Seniority has become less important than fitting individuals to function. Tigh has shown himself to be in some ways a superior XO, one upon whom Adama depends. Also, I would maintain that Tigh depends no less upon Bill Adama in order to function. But I wonder if any other "cross-pollenization" of battlestar crews might be wise. [[User:Zahir|Zahir]] 11:57, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Apollo was indeed promoted to the rank of Commander Rexpop. Personally, since I haven't read the Articles of Colonial Field Promotions...or whatever...I can't say that Lee's promotion was in breach of any protocol...maybe IRL it would be...but in the RDM universe, who knows.
Personally I think that the promotion to Commander reflects Apollos actions. He assumed command of the Pegasus when she was allready faceing 3 Basestars, with potentially up to 2,400 Raiders, and the Pegasus allready heavily damaged...and he was able to not only pull it out of the fire and escape, but heavily damaged/crippled one Basestar in the process. I'd say that he deserves the promotion to Commander. --[[User:Strato|Strato]]

On further thought it makes sense that Lee was probably the only viable candidate in fleet. The reasoning is as follows:

First up lets identify the potential candidates that we know about on Galactica. After the attack the command staff on Galactica was Adama, Colonel Tigh, Captain Kelly, Major Cottle and Lee. There are no other senior officers that we know about and given that Captain Kelly was second officer its unlikely there were others.

On Pegasus things are a little more vague. We know that Fisk was a Colonel and that Garner was not a command officer but the chief engineer so its likely that he held at least the rank of Major. With both officers gone it is likely the highest command officer left on Pegasus was probably no higher than the rank of Major. And given that Pegasus was in for a refit at the time of the attack it was likely that like Galactica the ship was light on senior officers.

So at the end we are left with four candidates that we the audience knows about. Tigh, Lee, Cottle and Kelly. Tigh has made it clear that he doesn't want command and Adama would likely pass him over due to his personal issues with the bottle. Cottle would probably not be considered due to not being a command officer and the lack of doctors in the fleet.

Kelly is a good candidate and is probably on a par with Lee, but where Lee wins out over Kelly is that Kelly doesn't have experience in commanding a Battlestar, only as an XO. Admittedly Lee only has one engagement under his belt, but he was thrown into the fire and came out singed but intact. Kelly doesn't have that so that puts Lee ahead. So under the circumstances (and the limited pool to draw on) Lee is pretty much is the best candidate that we know about for the job.

Now the only question that I have is why hasn't Kelly been made first officer of the Pegasus ?. It would seem that he would be a natural choice given that it was strongly hinted in the mini-series that he was in line for a promotion to a first officer position after his tour of duty was over. --[[User:Rexpop|Rexpop]] 14:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:Don't forget that Cain had already had her first XO executed, so Col. Fisk had probably been promoted from a lower rank already. As for Kelly vs. Lee Adama, it's not entirely clear which of them have seniority. Lee was under arrest when Kelly was acting as Tigh's XO. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:12, 18 February 2006 (EST)

==Survivor Count==
The survivor count went down by six even though we saw seven deaths in the last episode. This could be explained by the well established fact that cylon deaths do not result in a dropping of the count. It has long been speculated that [[Billy|Billy]] is/was a cylon. If this is true it would explain the loss of only six from the count. That said, it is also possible, even probable that there was a birth. In the podcast for [[Sacrifice|Sacrifice]] it is said that Billy was killed off just because the actor portraying him wished to pursue other projects. Thoughts?--[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:30, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:No, for two reasons: One, we actually saw the White Board of Death to confirm numbers, Two: occasionally there are births in the fleet which make the number go up slightly. Although this could never account for the sudden, unexplained gain of 50 people at a time or something, it does go to explain why sometimes there are episodes where a lot of people die, but the survivor count doesn't drop that much.
--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I don't understand what you're saying. Im not disputing the numbers, im giving a possible explination for why the number went down by only six when we see seven people (pehaps one of them a cylon) dying in the previous episode. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 03:37, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Seven people die on screen. 2 more die off screen. 3 babies are born off screen. We don't hear about these second two events, but they still ''happen'', and when we see the renewed survivor count, it's a ''Net'' loss of six, and so forth. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:56, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Whether Billy is a Cylon is not an issue for the Survivor Count (fleet population). President Roslin wouldn't yet be aware, so it would not be a factor in the population count, and therefore to mention the speculation about Billy wasn't really relevant. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 04:15, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Yeah thats a good point that the president wouldnt know, youre right. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 21:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Tigh and Seniority ==

In the questions, I wonder if the reference to Tigh's "seniority" is even relevent. This isn't a situation analogous to the time (now-Admiral) Adama was shot because in that case, Tigh was the most senior officer PERIOD, and here now Tigh is, of course, not. Adama, as the ranking flag officer (Admiral, if not Commander, and up), presumably has the authority to make promotions as he sees fit. While I'm sure anyone would agree that the promotion of Lee to Commander was unusual, does anybody really think promoting Tigh would have seemed like a good idea to anyone in the fleet? Just curious. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 05:31, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't see the fuss: Col. Tigh himself has stated repeatedly that he does not want a command of his own, and only wants to work as a team with William Adama. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 05:39, 18 February 2006 (EST)

BTW; a note on units: someone mentions that "40 SU" is a long distance away in space for Pegasus. I think that must mean "Stellar Unit", as opposed to our standardized "Astronomical Unit (AU)" (distance from Earth to the sun).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:01, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== Pegasus Technology / Technicalities ==
=== Landing Strips & Weaponry ===

Amazing Battle Sequence in this episode. It was nice to finally get to see Pegasus retake her Vipers via both the upper and lower Landing strips.
when I first saw her from this angle http://www.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image:Pegasus01.jpg I suspected she had 4 landing strips, and now that I have seen them in use, I feel vindicated. What do we know if anything about the 2 Bough Battery's Pegasus was firing at the middle Basestar? The shells seem to be the same size or larger than a viper?--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

:Also, the fact that one of them is inverted confirms that the colonials can maniuplate artificial gravity fields selectively. This was suspected from some shots of the botanical cruiser with a few domes upside down, but this is more explicit and a more extreme difference (the two strips are back to back). --[[User:Zeratul|Zeratul]] 17:38, 18 February 2006 (EST)

I don't think we could really tell what was upside down or not; I got the impressing that they were just flipping the ''camera angle'' to show that Pegasus was flipping around; more detail when we get the DVDs.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 18:27, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:From what I saw, half of the Vipers rotated to land on the bottom two Pegasus decks. Starbuck was clearly upside down. It can also be seen that Vipers landing on lower deck of the flight pod were rotating to land from the Vipers landing on the upper deck. This is the first time we see that all Viper's land on opposite sides of the same surface. I'm wondering how they are going to explain or show that the gravity is opposite from the rest of the ship.--[[User:Jedivulcan|Jedivulcan]]

::I hope they don't bother. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:10, 18 February 2006 (EST)

They haven't yet explained how they crerate Artificial Gravity onboard the ships yet...I assume its some sort of gravplating...or something...as usual its one of those suspension of disbelief things you just have to kind of accept (for that matter how do they prevent people from flaoting in Zero G in the Raptors?), but the Pegasus clearly has 4 Landing Strips,a nd uses them, there is no need to wait "for the DVD's". For Viper Raptor landings however, they don't relie on Artificial Gravity, they land their skids on magnetic "traps".--[[User:Strato|Strato]]

=== Class Capability ===

I removed the following entry from the article's "Notes" section: 
: [[Mercury class battlestar]]s do not need to retract their flight pods prior to a jump, unlike the [[Galactica type battlestar|Galactica type]]. 
I felt this statement was superfluous and unneeded, since ''Mercury''-class Battlestars '''''cannot''''' retract their flight pods before jumping to FTL; it's not a question of needing to or not. The design of the ''Mercury''-class is closest to the original (original series) model, with fixed flight pods and external hull plating and lines. Why TPTB included retractable/deployable flight pods on ''Galactica's'' class is anyone's guess — it's a neat feature, both visually and stylistically — but I don't think it's necessary to the performance of the FTL drive. -- [[User:Hawke|Hawke]] 20:29, 18 February 2006 (EST)

:: I could see the retractable flight pods on the ''Galactica'' type used to make a sealed enviroment when closed to create an atmosphere on the deck. I would say it could logically allow a way for people to disembark larger craft like ''Colonial One'' when they dock, however its been proven that craft like that use an airlock gantry way for that purpose. -- [[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 20:43, 18 February 2006 (EST)

== "Property"? ==

I'm a little sketchy on current United States legal terminology, but they said that "Under Gemenese law, minors are the "property" of their parents"--->Is the term "property" used by the United States, or any Western nation for that matter? I don't know. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:03, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:Under United States law, no, minors are not property. In practical terms, the situation is a little more complicated. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::I do not understand. Further, how could she be "property"?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 19:13, 18 February 2006 (EST)
:::In theory, children are absolutely not "property" under united states law, which grants equal protection not only to all citizens ''of'' the United States, but to all ''persons'' ''within'' the United States. In practice, legal guardians have a wide range of authority over their charges. Of particular relevance to this episode, some jurisdictions require minors to notify their parents prior to an abortion. A friend of mine who sued for emancipation from her parents has told me that in her opinion, there's little practical distinction between the status of an legal minor and "property". I suspect it's a matter of perspective, really. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:40, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:FTL/Archive 1

2006-02-18T18:34:21Z

Antagonist:

==Multiple Jumps in Cylon Raider==
:''However, it is far more likely that Starbuck had to make a series of jumps back to Caprica (especially given the condition she was in upon arrival) witch would indicate that the Cylon Raiders FTL-range is not that extremely superior.''

While plausible, that's clearly ''not'' the implication of the on-screen events, IMO. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:32, 27 September 2005 (EDT)

==My Big Problem With FTL==
I have a big problem with the FTL drives in the BSG universe and thats how many times they can jump before they refuel. In the episode 33, we see the fleet make over 250 consecutive jumps. Would it make sense for a 747 airliner to make that many consecutive flights w/o refueling? Fuel tanks would have to have a huge capacity to make that many jumps. Why would you design such a large fuel tank into a commercial transport like Colonial One. Every extra pound put into the vessel is one extra pound to push out of orbit. Jumping MUST require a considerable ammount of fuel or getting it wouldn't be an issue. I can understand a large fuel tank in something like a transport vessel or a mining ship, but not a starliner, its just not practical. I wouldnt normally complain about something like this, but given RDM's goal of making a 'realistic' sci-fi show, it bothers me. Are there any explinations for the capability to jump that many times?--Antagonist

I see no logical disconect in any of the things you've just stated. It all simply makes sense to me, as well as seems realistic. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 03:54, 18 February 2006 (EST)

::It would be like designing a 747 with a un-refueled range of a hundred thousand miles or a car with a 500 gallon gas tank. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 13:34, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-18T08:37:36Z

Antagonist:

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-18T08:37:25Z

Antagonist:

Talk:FTL/Archive 1

2006-02-18T08:31:22Z

Antagonist:

Talk:Pegasus (TRS)/Archive 1

2006-02-18T08:08:30Z

Antagonist:

Holy frak!!! Look at the SIZE of that thing! I love the look of this advanced battlestar, and hope we get a few more good looks at her and how good a fighter it is--but not against Adama, please. Pictures, pictures, pictures needed, particularly interior shots as well. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

: I think we should reference that it bears a similar shape of the original Galactica. [[User:QX100|QX100]] 16:32, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

::Don't all Battlestars? Or do you mean more similar than the new ''Galactica'' herself? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:40, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

:::What I Meant was that the pegasus and all ships in the Mercury-class have the same bulky resemblence of the Battlestars from the original series. [[User:QX100|QX100]] 22:48, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

::::Well, if you look at the end portion in that one pic, you can see the 2 hull-mounted engines which is the original structure of the battlestar in the original series and it seems like the 4 other sublight engines are "attached" to it. [[User:Blacklight|Blacklight]]
== Fleet unit ==

I couldn't make it out - I believe the Pegasus was assigned to the [[62nd Battlestar Group]], but I can't be sure. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 13:34, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

== Pegasus Battle Group ==

It belonged to BSG 63

[[Image:Cain_Pegasus_emblem_BSG_63.jpg]]

:That's what I pointed out on the 87th BSG page before it got deleted. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 07:56, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

::That's what it looks like to me as well. I think that we should move the BSG 75 page to just "BSG" and note it there, though, not on its own page. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:56, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

== the CNP ==

Did pegasus have it and when do you think they got rid of it?
--[[User:Alex mcpherson|Alex mcpherson]] 13:02, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

Ron Moore's podcast mentions that in a cut scene, Cain explains that their computer systems were offline for the refit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:50, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, that scene was in the aired show when Adama, Roslin, and Cain sat down over drinks. Cain indicated they the ship jumped since, without the other computers, they were defenseless--the only thing online, apparently, were the navigation and/or FTL computers. Does this mean that Pegasus never had the CNP? They probably did. I bet they learned quickly and retrofit their ships immediately as they likely got the same information about the fleet's failure rates over wireless as did Galactica. It would have been impossible for Pegasus to fight Cylons otherwise. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:22, 28 September 2005 (EDT)

::The CNP was quite new at the time of the mini-series. Maybe it was scheduled to be installed during the refit. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:44, 28 September 2005 (EDT)
::: Thats all i needed to know. so ''Mercury''-class dont have it for those that hadnt been refitted yet. that means there could be other battlestars out there..
::::This is only speculation on my part. Spencerian's explanation is also plausible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:37, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

==Gina's Origin==

Gina's origin was never stated in the episode. I know that this was widely speculated on spoiler sites prior to the episode, but that doesn't count for much. Maybe we'll learn more about her later. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:59, 1 October 2005 (EDT)

:In the Gina section of wiki states and I quote, "'''Gina is a Humano-Cylon who was "rescued" by the Pegasus, claiming to be a survivng civilian dock worker'''. After befriending the crew, she betrayed them to the Cylons, whom summarily boarded the Pegasus and terminated 800 of her crew. " That was why I put that in. --[[User:Blacklight|Blacklight]]

::Believe it or not, we're not actually a very reliable source. I'll fix that up. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:45, 1 October 2005 (EDT)

==Pegasus Fleet==

Should we post information on Pegasus's fleet in the Pegasus article? I know we don't know very much so far, except that there were 15 ships and one of them was the Scylla, but it stands to reason that we'll probably learn about some of the other ships as the new season progresses and if we get to meet other civilian crew members of Pegasus.--Ltcrashdown 01:51, 7 January 2006 (EST)

:Best place, as I see it. Probably less confusing here than [[The Fleet (RDM)|The Fleet]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:59, 7 January 2006 (EST)

::I definately agree on that front. The 15 ships certainly won't be showing up to join the fleet so there's no reason to include them there. I'll add the info we already know about the ships (aside from the mutiny stuff which we can add later).--Ltcrashdown 02:12, 7 January 2006 (EST)

In the process of adding info on the Pegasus fleet, Ricimer added his own details. Rather than rudely delete his comments, I'm just going to post what I wrote here, sot hat it doesn't go to waste. I'll probably incorporate some of what I wrote into the current article later, but for now I'd like to leave it here. Hope that's not a problem.--Ltcrashdown 02:24, 7 January 2006 (EST)

Shortly after the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies]], Pegasus picked up 15 civilian ships which Admiral Cain sought to exploit for military use. Some of the passengers were drafted into ther Pegasus's crew, while just about any useful equipment and parts were stripped from the craft.

The ships included:
:The [[Scylla]] - civilian transport
:14 other ships of unknown design

An interesting note about the ships of Pegasus's short-lived fleet was that several of them had weapons which were later removed on Admiral Cain's orders.

Also, the FTL drives on the ships were removed, but for unknown use (it can be assumed that the FTL drives would probably be too small for Pegasus and too big for Vipers/Raptors, so maybe they were used for parts in the event that the FTL of the Pegasus or a Raptor might break down, Note that this is pure speculation).

== Pegasus Images ==
There's a ton of close up Pegasus shots in the file list that aren't being used. Flyby's, zoomins on various components, etc. Should we use some of them here (or elsewhere)? I'm on something of a campaign to clean up (delete) pics that aren't being used (due to [http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewtopic&gid=77846&tid=75618 this discussion]), and this was the biggest pattern I could find. If they're worth keeping around, I won't object, but it seems like if they were worth using they would have been linked to (especially since some of them have been around since September).--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 17:29, 16 January 2006 (EST)

:It might be sensible to list them by subject and see if any of them can be used in picture-wanting articles before we trash them all. Worth the effort? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:24, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::Sure. I'll work on an [[User:Steelviper/IslandofMisfitImages/|"Island of Misfit Images"]] to see if we can't find a home for them. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 08:28, 17 January 2006 (EST)

==Vipers==
What about vipers? What model do they have? --[[User:PhoenixHacker|PhoenixHacker]] 20:47, 16 January 2006 (EST)
: Mark IVs. As did a majority of the Colonial Fleet. (The only reason Galactica has any Mark IIs is because they were museum displays.) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:55, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::That's Mark VII. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:57, 16 January 2006 (EST)

== Pegasus Registry Number ==

I am nearly positive that Pegasus' registry number is BS-62, however, I will present my evidence before (and if) I make an edit to the article.

A. Pictures:
[[Image:Pegasus_1.JPG|thumb|left]]
[[Image:TheEnemysGateIsDown3.jpg|thumb|left]]

B. Reasoning: We know that Galactica's registry number is BS-75. Galactica was also a member of BSG-75. I think that its safe to say that Battlestar Groups are numbered after the registry of their Battlestar, or else this is a pretty big coincidence. Pegasus' was a member of BSG-62, and the registry in those pictures looks like BS-62.

Thats why I made the orignal edit to the article. If we still think this isn't enough evidence, I won't edit it again. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 17:58, 25 January 2006 (EST)

:But your reasoning is utterly irrelevant. Ron D. Moore has stated, in his blog, that it is not a registry number but the number of their Battlestar Group. The number written on their hulls and ship emblem on their seals and patches seen since the miniseries say "BSG 75". They just like to display their Group number instead of registry; not exactly like Earth military now, etc. I'm sorry, but none of us will probably say this is good evidence; you haven't been here for a while BMS, but this has all be gone over a lot already. '''More importantly''', Ron D. Moore said that MORE THAN ONE Battlestar is usually in a Battlestar Group. It's like a navy carrier battlegroup. it ''can't'' be "Groups are number after the registry of their battlestar", because that would be ONE Battlestar, singular. There are multiple Battlestars in each Group.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:17, 25 January 2006 (EST)
[[Image:BS-62.jpg|right|thumb|Pegasus BS 62]]
::Ricimer, I am completley aware that there is a difference between BS and BSG. And I am fully aware that BSGs can have multiple Battlestars, I read that blog too and have seen that article within the wiki. But, the Galactica BSG is clearly named after Galactica's registry - BS-75. You can see BS-75 emblazoned on the flight pods below "Galactica" in high-res captures. If you want to extend the battle group analogy that RDM brought up, its notable that modern carrier battle groups (battle group is actually an obsolete term, they are now called "carrier strike groups" - thought CVBG is still used as an acronym) are named after their flagship. For instance, the battle group with the USS Abraham Lincoln as the flag is called the Abraham Lincoln Strike Group. Pegasus was the lead of her BSG. The flag officer commanding BSG-62, Cain, made her flag on Pegasus. Therefore, just like BSG-75 is named after Galactica BS-75, BSG-62 is named after Pegasus BS-62. But if you still don't believe me, I've uploaded a clear screencap of the flightpod, showing the text "Pegasus BS 62" from Resurrection Ship, pt. 2. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 23:15, 25 January 2006 (EST)
:::Obviously the facts speak for themselves, but I'm going to chime in in BMS' defense here. The evidence is unequivocal. Thank you for researching the issue so thoroughly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:38, 26 January 2006 (EST)
::::Thanks Peter. During my research, I found it interesting that modern carrier strike groups are almost never refered to as "CVBG 71" or something similar, like they are in the Galactica universe. I bet that it's because RDM thought "Galactica Strike Group" sounded unweildy, but BSG 75 sounded cool. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 13:00, 26 January 2006 (EST)

:::: Bada-bing, bada-boom. Case closed. No need for drama folks. Either it was shown or it wasn't. Before, it looked like it wasn't shown, but this cap seals it. Nice research. --[[User:Day|Day]] 07:15, 26 January 2006 (EST)

:I agree that it's BS-62. It's visible in the CIC wall in "Pegasus" and "Resurrection Ship" and visible on the podium in the pilot briefing room. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:13, 25 January 2006 (EST)
:Whether or not Pegasus is "BSG-62" is not in question: the page for BSG-62 was updated and confirmed as soon as "Resurrection Ship, Part I" came out, some time ago.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:17, 25 January 2006 (EST)
::Perhaps the BSGs are numbered after the lead ship in the group, like the flagship. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 18:28, 25 January 2006 (EST)

==Four Landing Strips?==
Did I just notice four landing strips in The Captain's Hand? one right side up and one upside down (relative to the rest of the shape, this is space after all, everything is relative). This would make sense with the images of the upside down launch tubes. Something commenting on the extra landing strips should be put in --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 03:08, 18 February 2006 (EST)

Barry Garner

2006-02-18T07:57:45Z

Antagonist:

{{Character Data|
|photo=
|age=
|colony=
|birthname= Barry Garner
|callsign=
|death= Restoring coolant pressure to the Pegasus' FTL drive during the [[Battle of the Binary Star System]]
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status=
|role= Commander, [[Battlestar]] [[Pegasus]]
|rank= Commander
|actor= [http://imdb.com/name/nm0001334 John Heard]
|cylon=
}}

'''Barry Garner''' is a Colonial officer on [[Battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' prior to the deaths of Admiral [[Helena Cain]] and Colonel [[Jack Fisk]]. Before his promotion, he was an engineer.

Barry Garner is the third officer to assume command of [[Battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'' after the ship was integrated in Admiral [[William Adama]]'s [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]]. He assumed command after the suspect death of Colonel [[Jack Fisk]] ([[The Captain's Hand]]).

Despite Garner's lack of command insight when jumping to recover Raptors [[Raptor 718|718]] and [[Raptor 314|314]], he died a rather heroic death by sealing the oxygen leak causing a pressure drop in ''Pegasus's'' engineering section. The emergency repair allowed the ''Pegasus'' engineering crew to repair the ships [[FTL]] drive, thus escaping a [[Battle of the Binary Star System|hopeless battle]].

{| class="wikitable" style="margin: 0.5em auto; border: 1px solid red; font-size:95%;"
|- style="text-align: center;"
|width="30%" align="center" rowspan="{{{rows}}}" | Preceded by: '''[[Jack Fisk]]'''
|width="40%" style="text-align: center;" rowspan="{{{rows}}}" | Commander of the Battlestar ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''
|width="30%" align="center" rowspan="{{{rows}}}" | Succeeded by: '''[[Lee Adama]]'''
|-
|}

[[Category: A to Z|Gardner, Barry]] [[Category: Characters|Gardner, Barry]] [[Category: RDM|Gardner, Barry]]

Talk:Barry Garner/Archive 1

2006-02-18T07:57:06Z

Antagonist:

Hi, on good authority that Barry Trammel is played by actor john heard(home alone)...

In fact the name has changed to Commander Barry Garner, NOT Trammel
source : http://pics.livejournal.com/ravenclawdrew/gallery/0000rtdz and http://pics.livejournal.com/ravenclawdrew/pic/0004hz4s/g21

i am new to wikipedia editing and so don't want to screw up the page editing it, so please someone else change it

: Nice! However, the name is a bit of an issue and we should probably wait until "The Captain's Hand" airs to determine which spelling is correct, seeing as the current spelling comes directly from GateWorld (which, as far as I'm concerned, is more valid than most blogs). We can always move the page later. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 08:14, 9 February 2006 (EST)

== Name ==

Garner or Gardner? The article lists both. --[[User:Kraetos|Kraetos]] 23:16, 17 February 2006 (EST)

:It's 'Garner' according to the subtitles I read during the episode, unless someone objects to that. I think it should stick, pending a Galacticastation transcipt. --Ltcrashdown 23:26, 17 February 2006 (EST)

==Sealing an oxygen leak??!!==
I thought he was restoring coolant pressure for the FTL drive...and that the oxygen leak killed him. Im making a revision. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 02:57, 18 February 2006 (EST)

The Captain's Hand

2006-02-18T07:42:05Z

Antagonist:

{{Episode Data|
Image = [[Image:Adamas.jpg|300px]]
| Title= The Captain's Hand
| Series= [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|The Re-imagined Series]]
| Season= [[Season 2 (2005-06)|2]]
| Episode= 17
| Guests= [[IMDB:nm0001334|John Heard]] (CMDR [[Barry Garner]]) Brad Dryborough (LT [[Hoshi]]) Mike Dopud (''Pegasus'' [[CIC]] Officer [[Gage]])
| Writer=
| Story=
| Director=
| Production=
| Rating=
| US Airdate= February 17 2006
| UK Airdate=
| DVD=
| Population= 49,584
| Prev= [[Sacrifice]]
| Next= [[Downloaded]]
}}

== Overview ==

== Summary ==
*The episode begins as two [[Raptor|Raptors]] begin a training mission outside from [[Pegasus_(RDM)|Pegasus]], which is near a [[Wikipedia:Binary_star_system|binary star]], causing [[Dradis|DRADIS]] interference. The raptors pass through a cloud, when they pick up a transmission. In the Pegasus C.I.C., the Raptors disappear from DRADIS, the Comm officer believing that they may be in distress.

*[[Lee Adama]] travels to the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', where he meets up with [[Kara Thrace]]. Lee has been promoted to '''Major''', and Kara to '''Captain'''. The two encounter Commander [[Barry Garner]], now in command of ''Pegasus'', who orders Kara to the flight deck while he and Lee proceed to [[CIC|C.I.C.]]

*[[Barry_Garner|Commander Garner]] and [[Lee_Adama|Major Adama]] talk in private about the discipline on [[Pegasus_(RDM)|Pegasus]]. Garner thinks that [[Kara_Thrace|Starbuck]] is a huge part of the problem, but Adama defends her, citing her excellent piloting skills. Garner thinks that he could his experience as an engineer would do the ship some good.

*Meanwhile, President [[Laura Roslin|Roslin]]'s relationship with Vice President [[Gaius Baltar|Baltar]] is growing increasingly strained.

*Garner is clearly having his own command crisis, and is hurt when Lee suggests that they coordinate the search for the missing Raptors with Admiral [[William Adama|Adama]] (also recently promoted) and ''Galactica''. If Kara's plan to find the ships doesn't work, Garner suggests that the deaths of the Raptor crews will be on Lee's head. ([http://www.gateworld.net/galactica/news/2005/10/firstdetailsonthecaptainsh.shtml GateWorld])

== Questions ==
*Would Adama allow Dr. Cottle to be arrested? From the episode, he is of the opinion that he would do what is necessary.

*Was Baltar's report real, or was it just invented to produce the opportunity to drive his wedge?

*Who will replace Baltar as Roslin's Vice-President?

*How will Zarek position himself in the Baltar campaign?

*Will Tigh accept the fact that Lee Adama now outranks him and has command of a ship? Or does Saul have no interest in command and already told Admiral Adama that before the posting was offered to Lee?
**As mentioned in [[Scattered]], Col. Tigh wasn't really interested in commanding a [[Battlestar|battlestar]].
***Fleet protocols, as in the real-world US Navy and other naval services around the globe, would require Tigh, as the senior officer to take command, as he did when Adama was incapacitated.
****This is true for an intra-ship command structure, but if other qualified officers were available, Col. Tigh probobly had the privalige to pass up the command of Pegasus, citing XO's perogative (or something similar)
== Analysis ==
*Survivor count is decremented by six from "[[Sacrifice]]", but seven people died in that episode - terrorists [[Sesha Abinell]], [[Vinson]], [[Page]] and [[Chu]], two unnamed marines, and civilian [[Billy Keikeya]]. At least one birth must have taken place to offset the population count between the two episodes, [[Cylon_agent_speculation#Billy_Keikeya.3F|unless Billy was a cylon]]. Cylon deaths do not affect the [[survivor_count|survivor count]].
*In the course of this episodes timeline, [[Lee Adama]] rises from the rank of Captian (CAG of [[Galactica]]) to Major (No details on posting except assigned to [[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]) to the rank of Commander and CO of [[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]] in the wake of Commander [[Barry Garner]]'s death saving his ship.
**Though not stated, MAJ Adama's duty was likely a temporary stint as ''Pegasus'' acting XO, to familiarize himself with the duties of a senior officer.

== Notes ==
*The recap at the beginning of this episode shows a scene we have not yet seen in the series. It is the scene where Admiral Adama says that he is choosing Garner as the new Pegasus Commander, possibly a scene that was cut from "Black Market" and will most likely appear on the next DVD set.

*[[Roslin]] refernces Shakespeare's ''Merchant of Venice'' when she asks [[Quorum of Twelve|Councillor]] [[Sarah Porter]] if she wants her "pound of flesh". It's unclear if analogues of his work exist in the [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)|Colonies]].

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

== Official Statements ==

== Statistics ==

=== Guest Stars ===

*John Heard as Commander [[Barry Garner]]
*Brad Dryborough as Lieutenant [[Hoshi]]
*Mike Dopud as ''Pegasus'' [[CIC]] Officer [[Gage]]

=== Writing & Direction ===


=== Production Notes ===

*Series 2 (2005 / 2006)
*Production Number: 2.17
*Airdate Order: 17 (of 20)

=== First Run Air Dates & Releases ===

*UK Airdate: Date
*US Airdate: 17 February 2006
*DVD Release (UK): Date
*DVD Release (US): Date
*[[Wikipedia:Nielsen Rating|Nielsen Rating]]: X.X million households, XXX share

{{Episode List}}

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: RDM]]

Talk:The Captain's Hand/Archive 1

2006-02-18T07:30:08Z

Antagonist:

Talk:Viper (TRS)/Archive 1

2006-02-13T06:21:06Z

Antagonist:

==Mk. VII Vipers FTL Capable?==
Before I say anything, I'd like to point out that I'm speculating all of this. I have heard nowhere else that the Mk. VII's have FTL drives.

I think that the Mk. VII's have installed jump engines. My reasoning is as follows:
The last time we saw a Viper squadron that was composed entirley of Mk. VII's was Ripper's squadron during the miniseries. Before they were destroyed, they were being reassigned to Caprican locan defense squadron. Galactica was not really close to Caprica when this mission started, the distance required to travel would be best done with a FTL jump.
The next time we see Mk. VII's used extensivley is on Pegasus. Stinger orders two Mk. VII's and a Raptor - which we know are jump capable - on the recon mission. The target is too far away to be reached realistically at sublight speeds. Stinger may be uncreative and lacking initiave, but hes not stupid, and would not design a mission with such an obvious flaw. The Mk. VII's must have FTL drives. Furthermore, we now know that ships that small can carry FTL drives, i.e. the [[Blackbird]]. In fact, its entirley possible that the Blackbird's FTL drive itself CAME from a scrapped Mk. VII, instead of [[Raptor 305]] - the FTL engines for a Raptor might be too big for the tiny Blackbird, but a Mk. VII is only slightly bigger than the Blackbird.
The other small craft from the era of the second Cylon war, the Raptor, does have FTL drive. It would make sense that the Colonials installed an FTL drive on Mk. VII's, but not Mk. II's, because Mk. VII's are about 50 years newer.

Just a bunch of speculation. Feel free to add to my theory or poke some holes in it. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:51, 7 January 2006 (EST)
:Remember though, the Colonial 798 was making the trip, it was only 30 light minutes. In the novel btw, they were refueling at Caprica before continuing on to Picon where the squadron would be split up. Also, the trip from Caprica to the Big-G only took 798 5.4 hours. Military pilots endure longer flights across the Atlantic. Remember, Apollo was flying 7242 back to Caprica and it is a Mk. II. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 21:12, 7 January 2006 (EST)

:I'm inclined to agree, as the 2 Vipers and a Raptor thing had occured to me before, always while I wasn't around to add it here. It'd be '''very''' hard to explain otherwise. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 22:10, 7 January 2006 (EST)

::This would also make it easier to believe that the three Mk. VII vipers seen in Roslin's fleet were later integrated into Galactica's squadron. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:21, 7 January 2006 (EST)
:::You would think that if the Mk. VII was FTL-capable, they would've used them in the attack on the Tyllium asteroid. You know, jump behind the raider screen to attack the asteroid. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 08:25, 8 January 2006 (EST)
::::Yes, but Mk. VII's are "a handful for all but the most experienced of pilots." Starbuck was out for this mission, and the only other person we've seen fly a Mk. VII is Apollo - that is, until we see Pegasus, in which the entire compliment of pilots flies Mk. VII's. Again, another continuity error... so much for naturalistic science fiction. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 20:42, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:::::Well, they needed the nuggets to round out the squadron, and they were only certified for the Mk. IIs. Maybe the more experienced pilots also chose Mk. IIs to maintain tactical cohesion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:31, 22 January 2006 (EST)

I'm sorry that I didn't see this page before January 7th-ish. However, '''I think this entire line of reasoning is flawed''', and it's just jumping to conclusions here. The three main points you have here are that:
1)Galactica was far from Caprica 
2)Stinger ordered two Viper Mark VII's on a recon mission with a Raptor in "Pegasus" 
3)You think that since, small-sized (not captial-ship sized) vessels like Raptors have Jump drives, Vipers must also. 

However, all of these are fairly well explainable:

1) Galactica and Caprica and in the same star system at the time, albeit on opposite sides of the system or something. Remember, the conceit of the show is that there are Twelve habitable worlds in their one star system. Further, they made it a point that they don't always use Jump drives when they don't need to, fuel consumption, etc. 
2)Stinger did '''not''' order two Viper Mark VII's on a recon mission in "Pegasus". Although he ordered "Whiplash" and "Thumper" to get their "optical gear ready" he never said that they were going in their Mark VII's; although Whiplash is a Viper pilot, for all we know the two of them, just like Apollo, are qualified to operate a Raptor and Stinger just trusts them more or something. Point is, he never explicitly says "Viper", and we know that some Viper pilots know how to use Raptors. 
3) Raptors are bigger than a Viper, for starters, much bigger, so I think they can fit an FTL drive inside that Vipers cannot. Further, it's a "Limited" FTL drive. That is, it can only make small "hops" as opposed to one big Jump like Galactica. Remember how the "Ships" gallery on the official site explains that some ships have "short legs"? That is, they can get from Planet A to Planet B by making many small Jumps instead of one big one. On top of all of this, a Raptor is not a frontline combat unit. It's an electronic support ship. Heck, we've never even seen these things using weapons on a regular basis (missiles ''once''). So I think because they're not meant for frontline combat highspeed manuevering, they can fit in a bulky FTL drive, etc.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that speculating that Viper Mark VII's have FTL drives doesn't really hold up. I'm going to revert the edit on the article. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 22:05, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:Fair enough. 1 and 3 were fluff that I came up with after I had the Pegasus and Stinger reason, but yeah, you managed to poke a hole in that one that I missed. You've been doin' that with a lot of my theories lately. :-P :-) On a serious note, the two Raptors makes the most sense, and Whiplash and Thumper must be qualified in both. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 23:13, 22 January 2006 (EST)

::Well I'm just pointing out facts and proceeding from there; I mean I'm not going to just say "I disagree because that's dumb and I think Vipers shouldn't have them because I said so", etc. etc. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:17, 22 January 2006 (EST)

:::That wasn't meant to be a jab at you or anything - I agree with you. I went back and read the transcript of the dialogue, and you're completely right, Stinger doesn't mention Vipers.

:::After I mixed up yours and Peters comments on the Timeline (RDM) talk page, I was afraid you thought I was a troll or something, just making trouble. I'm not, I just wanna help contribute to this wonderful wiki you've got going here. --[[User:BMS|BMS]] 00:44, 23 January 2006 (EST)

==Mark vs. Mk==
About the recent string of edits: I'm not certain, did we agree on the convention of using "Mark II" or "Mk II"? All of the "Mk"'s just got reverted to "Mark"'s. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:47, 15 October 2005 (EDT)
:We made the consensus that either Mark or Mk. were acceptable IIRC. I just think though that using Mark in, especially, designations looks sloppy. Mk. is an established military designation, especially in the British military. For full titles, I think it should be Mk. but Mark would be fine for others. The picture of the Mk. II, for example, I think looks better as Viper Mk. II rather than Viper Mark II. Conversely, I think that a line of text such as "The raiders engaged in a furball with seven Mark IIs" is fine. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:06, 3 November 2005 (EST)
::Also, note the period in Mk. as it is an abbreviation. I just read throught the Viper article and I think it just looks bad. Remember though, this is coming from someone who grew up reading "Jane's All the Worlds Aircraft" and such so it could just be what I'm used to. I only changed it in the picture captions. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 14:09, 3 November 2005 (EST)

Made the following changes:
*Mark VII has three engines, not two. Its third engine is partially shrouded by the fighter's tail root.
*Elaborated on what and how the Cylons comprimised the Mk VII.
*Suggested a possible thrust vectoring feature on the Mk VII's engines, based on its angular, segmented design.

Well, time to date and ID this old thing.

--[[User:David Templar|David Templar]], 4 May, 2005

== Changes ==

I deleted the Notes section following the Viper specs, it used to say:

"Since the Galactica only had 40 Viper Mk. II's aboard, they needed as many fighters as possible, thus the remaining Mk. VII's were refitted and stripped of their advanced computer systems. However, since this is not how the Mk. VII was designed, it makes the craft increasingly difficult to handle and can only be flown by the most experienced pilots (Apollo & Starbuck). Galactica has roughly 6-8 Mk. VII's on board after the Cylon attack ("Scattered", "Flight of the Phoenix")."

Almost none of that is canon. There's no indication that the Mk VII's systems were altered beyond removing the comprimised navigation software. The comment about it becoming more difficult to fly was taken from the Scifi channel's page, which has been wrong on more than one occasion. It certainly is not backed up by anything in the show.--David Templar, Octber 14, 2005
:I am completely reverting your edit. Yes, Scifi.com has been known to make mistakes, but nonetheless '''we regard it as canon until flatly contradicted by something else'''. Much of our Viper pilot numbers for the first season are based on the running count on the Vipers "CAG roster" section of the gallery. Further, it makes sense. Lastly, when you are talking on a discussion page, sign your name instead of leaving it blank, and date it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]], October 14, 2005

::I'm sure Ricimer meant to say "please". You can use <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki> to leave behind a signature automatically. Also, that fact that the nuggets were started out in Mk. IIs lends support to the idea that they're somewhat easier to fly. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:28, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

:::Thanks Peter. No, I completely disagree with Ricimer that gutting the Mk VII's computers makes any sense. The problem has clearly been one of an exploitable software, which can be purged and the computer reverted to an earlier, safe program. So why would they take out all the advance computers? It's overkill to an unreasonable extent. At worst, they can disconnect the navigation computer from certain other systems, and that would not affect the ship's handling characteristics at all, even assuming the flight control falls under the navigational computer. And I'm pretty sure they're training pilots on the Mk IIs not only because they're simpler to fly (they're like Cessnas to Mk VII's F-16, Apollo has complained about their lack of electronics before in the miniseries), but also because they're more expendable (and possibly more rugged). We know that the Mk VIIs are certified for combat, and they're undoubtedly superior to the Mk II (even in the event that they have been lobotemized), so why would they have trainees fly the most complex, least replacible fighters when they don't even know if they can land? I hope this sig thing works.... --[[User:David Templar|David Templar]] 01:40, 15 October 2005 (EDT)
::::Wait, what you just said contradicted what was just said above; I mean, how could Viper Mark II's be more complex? I'm pretty sure on the basic idea that the networked control computers have been removed, at the cost of worse performance. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 09:29, 15 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Sorry, should have phrased the sentence better. "why would they have trainees fly the most complex, least replacible fighters" refers to the Mk. VII, not the Mk. II. Flight control computers doesn't have to be networked with the other systems to work, though, maybe except the engines. The flight control system is only responsible for translating the pilot's control input into proper reaction control thruster response, that doesn't really require the help of any other systems. If one wants to get down right to the bone of the problem, it's this, in space flight, your ship has to be able to perform the following actions for you because you humanly can't:

:::::*You need your thrusters to fire twice for every course change you make, once to get you moving, once to stop you from continuing to move. This is technologically simple to do and doesn't require a networked computer, the thruster simply times the duration of its firing and tells it opposite number to fire for the same exact duration and power level once the pilot stops pulling the stick. You can't "unnetwork" the thrusters from each other (not that it'd achieve anything helpful) and/or "fly manually" in this area, it simply won't work, unless you intend to move with all the agility of the space shuttles. But even the space shuttle has computers to do the above tasks for it. If the pilot has to push his stick in the exact opposite direction as he had pulled it for the exact duration he had pulled it... Well, I think you get the idea. Since this doesn't really require an advanced computer, I don't see why if flight control has its own computer that it'd be changed.

:::::*The ship needs to able to know where it is, its relative velocity and vector from its immediate environment and the direction the nose is pointed. This is required for the ship to basically know how to stop itself from spinning, tumbling or drifting out of control. This would require the navigation system (it being in charge of knowing the ship's orientation and direction travelled) and could pose a problem for the pilot if it's decoupled from flight control... To put it mildly. Assuming the Mk. VII's navigational computer can autopilot the ship into controlled flight (ie. not tumbling and drifting laterally with respect to a defined orientation, say Galactica herself), then removing the link between navigational computer and flight control (assuming they're even separate systems) would mean that the navigational computer has to generate a heading indicator on the HUD for the pilot to point the ship at and burn towards order to bring an out of control ship back into controlled flight (without such a basic computer assistance, space fighter combat is impossible).

:::::Now, would having to use such an indicator make the Mk. VII harder to fly than the Mk. II? Not really. It would at the most make both equally difficult to stability in combat if the pilot lets the fighter get away from him. In controlled flight, however, there would be no real difference that isn't hardware based. If both fighters have thrusters of the same performance arranged in comparable positions, then they're both going to fly pretty much the same way. If the Mk. VII has more powerful thrusters in better positions, then it'll be more agile, although that is doubtful since the Mk. II is already incredibly agile and if the Mk. VII is notably more agile, I really don't know how the pilot can remain conscious. It could be that such a combination would allow the Mk. VII to get away from her pilot more easily (more sensitive to handle) and a dumbed down control recovery system makes stabilizing harder, but from what Starbuck has told us, the Mk. II is just as dangerous a performer if not MORE SO. At least in a highly computerized fighter, safety protocols can be put in place to control the violence with which the fighter turns (customizing control sensitivity to the pilot); less computerized fighters just does what it can as hard as it can. Also, from what we've seen of the Mk. II in combat, pilots have on several occasions put their Viper into a complex spin, suggesting that their control recovery might be automatic rather than indicator based. A manual recovery can be a very length event, depending on the degree of which the ship is out of control and the ability of the pilot, and almost certainly fatal if one is underfire as it involve making your fighter flying steady again. Frankly, it's not really even that hard to do for a computer, so the computer responsible for this doesn't seem likely to be particularly advanced.

:::::Now, what would decoupling flight control from navigation system accomplish in terms of protecting the fighter from Cylon infiltration? Absolutely nothing, assuming if they can even be treated as separate systems. The connection between flight control and navigation was never the problem, the whole problem was Cylon accessing the entire fighter via navigations. If navigation system can be separate from the rest of the network without affecting any of the nav system's duties as listed above, why gut every advance computer on the fighter? And if only the networking function has been removed from the Mk. VII, it certainly doesn't really make the Mk. VII harder to fly than the Mk. II.
:::::--[[User:David Templar|David Templar]] 17:03, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

Although I can't bring myself to read that impressive missive through entirely, I would just like to note that Baltar's CNP was clearly a new development, and very probably postdated the Mk. VII anyway. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:09, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

I just had a tidbit to add, the Mk VII has a side stick while the Mk II has a center-mounted stick. IRL most FBW aircraft use side-mounted sticks, joysticks mounted on a side panel instead of between the pilots' legs, while most pre-FBW craft used center-mounted sticks. The F-16 is an example of the former and the F-14, the latter. ...Just something I noticed while watching 33 recently. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 23:58, 12 December 2005 (EST)

== Dimensions new series Viper Mk II & Mk VII ==

The dimensions given here for the new series Vipers are a bit off. The correct sizes acording to Lee Stringer [http://www.leestringer.com/],one of the VFX Animators of the Mini Series, are:

=== '''Viper Mk2''' ===

Length: 8.4082 m

Wingspan: 4.7168 m

Height: 2.7247 m (in flight, without landing gear!)

=== '''Viper Mk7''' ===

Length: 9.8643 m

Wingspan: 5.61 m

Height: 2.9508 m (in flight, without landing gear!)

''"... IMPORTANT NOTE: These are from the CGI models NOT the fullsize props. Although measurements etc. where taken of the full size props and the CGIs made from that, it doesn't mean they match 100% ..." quote'' '''Lee Stringer'''

'''Source: [http://www.starshipbuilder.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000012.html]'''

--[[User:ThRow|ThRow]] 13:57, 3 November 2005 (EST)

:Excellent. I encourage you to add this information to the appropriate pages with the source and Mr. Stringer's credentials. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:48, 3 November 2005 (EST)

::Done!
::Same source gives also dimensions for [[Raptor]], [[Galactica (RDM)]] and [[Basestar (RDM)]].
::--[[User:ThRow|ThRow]] 23:25, 3 November 2005 (EST)

:::I rejigged your citation to use the footnote templates we have available. If you'd like to familiarize yourself with their use, please see [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad]] for references. Thanks for helping to make this site a more reliable resource. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:28, 4 November 2005 (EST)

I remember reading in a previous article on the raptors and Galactica's combat ships that the Vipers couldn't have a specific breakdown like the Raptors because we didn't have specific numbers to go along with each.

Well in [[Flight of the Pheonix]], Chief Tyrol does say the registry for Viper 54289. It's the Viper that Tyrol labels as unserviceable scrap. I wasn't sure if any one wanted this info so i just posted it under Viper Talk. [[User:Ltcrashdown|Ltcrashdown]] December 25, 2005
:I listened to the audio on the DVD and he clearly says "Viper 289." The subtitles have to be a mistake, we've only seen three digit and four digit numbers on Vipers. You can see my theory on Viper serial numbers on the [[Viper 2276]] talk page. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:39, 25 December 2005 (EST)
::We do have an article on [[Viper 289]] as of recently. The comment disparaging the notion of keeping track of Vipers was probably mine, but I've changed my mind about that. It may also be possible to find other Viper serial numbers on DRADIS screens. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:24, 25 December 2005 (EST)

Well it wouldn't be the first time that there's a small mistake in the subtitles [[User:Ltcrashdown|Ltcrashdown]] December 25, 2005
:I just wanted to use the DVDs I just got (about 30 minutes before for Christmas). Anyway, I'm going to go through, looking for Viper numbers and such. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 13:25, 25 December 2005 (EST)

==Viper Redirect==
Spencerian, you read my mind. I was wondering if maybe we should put a disambig at the top of this article, and then change Viper to a redirect to here. It's very common for people to just link Viper, and since we're rounding out the TOS content, most of the new references are going to be talking about this article. That way I'll never have to go on another Viper crusade like I did today... --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 16:01, 17 January 2006 (EST)

==Mk II Turn Speed==
I remember starbuck saying in an episode that the viper can 'turn end over end in .35 seconds'. She says this when she is trying to scare the nuggets shes training. If someone remembers the episode an addiction ought to be made. --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 01:21, 13 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:By your command/Archive 1

2006-02-13T06:16:39Z

Antagonist: /* BYC use in "Colonial Day" */

===BYC use in "Colonial Day"===
I'm positive that the prhase is said a second time in "[[Colonial Day]]". Just before Helo sees the white coat copy of Sharon two Number Six copies emerge from the building Helo's hiding on and they have a discussion that's mosty drowned out by the roar of the Heavy Raider's engines. The last line is BARELY audible however and I'm positive one Six says "By your command" just before the two part company. --[[User:Kahran|Kahran]] 03:50, 10 January 2006 (EST)

:Yeah, I hear it too. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 04:11, 10 January 2006 (EST)

::Then note it here, by all means...I haven't a copy to verify. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 09:00, 10 January 2006 (EST)

:::I just put in the change --[[User:Antagonist|Antagonist]] 01:16, 13 February 2006 (EST)

Talk:By your command/Archive 1

2006-02-13T06:15:13Z

Antagonist: /* BYC use in "Colonial Day" */

By your command

2006-02-13T06:13:54Z

Antagonist:

"'''By your command'''" is arguably the most popular phrase of the "Battlestar Galactica" saga.

The phrase is frequently said by [[Cylons (TOS)|the robotic soldiers of the Cylon Empire]] in [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|the Original Series]] in a neutral metallic voice as the affirmative response to an order from another Cylon Centurion, [[Imperious Leader]], or other authority.

In the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]], the phrase has been said twice by copies of [[Number Six]], once to a copy of [[Sharon Valerii]] in response to finding the escaped [[The Fleet (RDM)|Fleet]] of refugee survivors of the [[Fall of the Twelve Colonies|genocidal Cylon attack on the Colonies]] ([[Miniseries]]), and again during the episode [[Colonial Day]].

Since these [[Humano-Cylon|humanoid Cylon agents]] appear to run their Cylon fleet as a collective, the use of "By your command" may be less of a command acknowledgement. The use of the phrase may be more analogous to the Colonial affirmation "[[So say we all]]", particularly in light of these Cylons' practice of a [[God|monothestic religion]], complete with commandments.

==Note==

A friend of [[Ronald D. Moore|Ron D. Moore]], "Roswell" TV series writer Breen Frazier, indicated to Moore that he was surprised that the popular phrase from the Original Series was missing from early script of the [[Miniseries]]. Moore recalled that Breen asked how could the show be "Battlestar Galactica" without adding the phrase (Source: [[The Official Companion]]).

[[Category: A to Z]]
[[Category: Cylons]]
[[Category: RDM]]
[[Category: TOS]]
[[Category: Figures of Speech]]