Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Battlestar Wiki talk:The Merovingian Ban

2006-09-02T05:45:07Z

AerynSun44: /* Comments */

<div class="messagebox"><h3>Please REMEMBER TO BE COURTEOUS and [[Wikipedia:WP:CIVIL|WP:CIVIL]] AS The Merovingian CAN NOT RESPOND. This is a remember to all parties adding comments to this page... myself included. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:00, 1 September 2006 (CDT)</h3></div>
== Comments ==
It must have been a hard decision to take such a drastic action, but I'm sure that this move will only benefit the wiki in the future. --[[User:Ribsy|Ribsy]] 00:14, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
:I'm intrigued to know what's happened in the last few days for such a hard decision to be made. I was on vacation from the wiki all last week and I dont use Skiffy boards or other forums to know what happens off-wiki... --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:07, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
:I suspect the off-wiki behavior has just come to a head. But I'd not speculate further. We are what we are outside and inside the wiki. While Merv's face was improving here, it seems he began to claim the wiki as his own, and this isn't a place we can take ownership in. We can all take pride in adding our own contributions to form, together, one great resource for everyone, yes, but we can not take ownership to be point of being catty, rude or representing yourself as a wiki official without authorization. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:42, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
::It was not only that, but his general behavior to people off-wiki -- his behavior even prompted RDM's own wife, Terry, who posts on the SciFi.com boards as "Mrs Ron", to [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=2056843&Searchpage=1&Main=2056837&Words=moron+The_Merovingian&topic=&Search=true#Post2056843 warn Merv about his's own behavior]. (In light of how she herself is painted as "a champion of [Merv's] bad behavior", I do not envy her current position as well, which apparently [http://www.mortalstorm.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1012 mirrors our own] in some ways.) What I do know through conversing with others who aren't contributors to the Wiki, but have their pulse on the fandom, is that he has damaged the wiki through his actions as he is associated with us. (He's made this association clear through a banner on the SciFi.com boards, a banner that I will ask be removed from his signature immediately.) I ''know'' that he's caused damage to the wiki; it's not like any of this is not out there on the boards and the like -- it is. I've tried to establsh damage control, hence the [[BW:OR|Official Representation]] policy, which, I will freely admit, is a direct response to Merv's previous actions. He has (almost) cost us a very good contributor in the process just within the ''last 48 hours'' and, in talking with others, I have determined that an RFC would have caused much, much more issues than the primary issue we were attempting to fix. I'll make it pretty clear that this decision was not a spur of the moment; I've thought about it intermittently for some time now, until I could put the pieces together all of the events that have transpired for the last six to eight months, without massive bias on either side of the issue. The sad thing is that it all adds up to a very nasty picture, which I refuse to have this wiki be a part of. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:35, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
I dont need to know about the reasons that leave to Merv´s banning ,hes childish behavior and arrogance are very well known arround the BSG fanbase.These action open the gate to our group of fans that avoided these place because we didnt want any involment to do with the Merovignian.
The FRAKHEADS! and the BSG-55 board will celebrate these desition and ad theyr contributions to the BSG wiki project.

Moctezuma.
BSG-55 FRAKHEADS! {{unsigned|Moctezuma}}--[[User:Moctezuma|Moctezuma]] 19:17, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

Dont worry about these site image on the contraire,the relevance of the content and the profesional structure are really amazing, im very pleased to read about a young profesional entrepenour like you and the TEAM that makes these site posible.--[[User:Moctezuma|Moctezuma]] 19:17, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
: Thank you for your kind words. I personally appreciate them. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:22, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

I don't understand what has prompted this move at this time, and there is nothing in your announcement, Joe, that really explains it. I have been clued out of the community for a few weeks now, and there may well have been some new incident that showed Merv not only to be unworthy of adminship, but unworthy of editing as well. But if there is, you haven't cited it. When I saw the title of this page I expected to see laid out for me a series of recent references to Merv's transgressions both here and off-site. I didn't get it. Why not? Banning people out of the blue for vaguely generalised past behaviour casts, IMO, an even worse impression on the wiki. Is it because he called somebody a moron in that thread? If it is, just say so. Why the hints and characterisations? Is the trigger that MrsRon spoke against him? I wouldn't call what she wrote a scathing indictment, just a mild voice of reason.

Judging from the arguments I have seen from people on this site in such matters, which have been generally very rational and of a high level, I find this announcement disappointing, more for the content of the announcement than the actual decision that was taken. It comes across as an emotional reaction -- something that I thought the wiki was above indulging. If you were going to ban somebody from editing, I would expect this to include a carefully cited set of examples of his behaviour, not a link to a single slur wrapped in several paragraphs of what basically boils down to 'People don't think he's cool and therefore they think the wiki isn't cool.' I suggest that in the future if you ban anyone from doing anything that you dispense entirely with all of the talk about wiki's reputation (which dominates your announcement and is not on point, i.e. it's not the relevant issue), and instead take a much more rational and carefully laid out approach that concentrates on examples (especially recent ones) of Merv's actual behaviour, because without that, there is no 'there' there. And that presents the appearance at least of having arbitrarily and without careful consideration (but merely out of a sense of fed-upness) chosen a side in what is ultimately a personality conflict in fandom, and chosen the side that will result in the least repercussions for the wiki. As in, maybe if you get rid of Merv the whole conflict will just go away? Okay, leave aside the fact that this doesn't seem to be an actual valid reason for banning anybody; more importantly, what happens to the next target chosen for unpopularity by your secret sources? Do we all have to curry favour now with certain off-wiki fan personalities to remain in good standing here? And exactly who are these people, anyway, with their "fingers on the pulse of fandom"? They don't have their fingers on MY pulse. You might as well have said that Merv has been excommunicated because a shadowy figure came to your doorway and slipped you a note after you left an X on your window. It really leaves an awful impression.

I don't really have time to debate this at length, but I think the way this decision was presented reflects very poorly on the wiki, because I find most of the things you have talked about to be not relevant. Think about somebody with no prior experience of this conflict reading what you just wrote, Joe. You have given this hypothetical newbie almost no actual clear and present reason to believe that The Merovingian is still the imperious dictator you say he is, and instead given him/her a major reason that is right in their face to believe exactly that about you and about the wiki.

I'm not asking that you reverse the decision. I don't know enough to say that. As I say, I have not been privy to what's been going on, which is why the paper-thinness of what is on this page is so glaringly obvious. But I hope that in the future any bannings of longtime members that are under consideration will be handled much more carefully and methodically than what I see here. It also would help if there were reference made to violations of an official policy on exactly what is bannable and what is not. Is being unpopular with other fans a bannable offence? You give a very strong impression here that it is.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 03:22, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

: What prompted the banning were the fact that, repeatedly, editors have tried to up and leave regarding his behavior -- behavior which is well documented on the message boards to which he participates as well as the wiki. It is not only pathetic that I have to keep on talking down contributors who have had issues with Merv, but it is also pathetic that people, like Shane (who isn't even an admin, for pete's sake), have to talk people out of doing such an act. Perhaps you didn't know this, as it wasn't common knowledge, but myself and the other administrators, such as Peter, have been endeavoring to help Merv soften his behavior. For a while, it seems he was improving in his behavior, until the complaints -- from people who hardly participate in message boards -- started rolling in ''again''.

: I'm not going to release names because they have come to me in confidence -- though I do hope that they have the courage to come forward, since I believe it would be cathartic for them. But Merv is directly responsible for us almost losing a very good member of this community 24 hours prior to making my decision.

: We have had issues with Merv for quite some time now, including the whole KR thing which, sad to say, almost damaged the wiki more than I've ever let on. This is detailed in his three Requests for Adminship, which I believe you may have read, as well as throughout the wiki. Feel free to do a search in our wiki, or even a Google search. (As I said, it's all out there for review.)

: Merv has also attempted to comport himself as taking ownership of the wiki on various occassions, despite our attempts to curtail such behavior by establishing [[Battlestar Wiki:Official Representation|our Official Representation policy]]. No one here, including myself (who shoulders the burden of financing, tech support, and being the one who tends to mediate issues here), dares take ownership of the wiki because it is a '''team effort'''. '''We are one''' here; everyone works together to build this reference. If there is someone who tries to use Battlestar Wiki as his personal pulpit, such as in the whole KR thing which is documented in [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Citation_Jihad/Archive02#Koenigrules_.2F_Hollywood_North_Report our archives here], then they will reap the consequences of doing such a thing from not only myself, but from the community.

: Fact of the matter is that I haven't included links due to the fact that his behavior outside the wiki and goals are so glaringly apparent that I believed such a thing was unnecessary; I now know why he was so insistant on [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=48191#RFA getting adminship here at the wiki as well], which was to solidfy a position to be some sort of prima donna information broker in the fandom. (This motivation doubtless lead to the near-disasterous incident with KR, which Peter should be thanked for mitigating.) I firmly believe that Merv never wanted the responsibility; he wanted the title, which is something that the cynical part of me has always suspected.

: To satisfy your curiousity regarding links and a dossier of his behavior on and off wiki, there are people who are working to create a compilation of all of Merv's replies and actions to date. A link to it, most likely in PDF format, will be uploaded to my website and linked here as an archive for all to see upon completion and review. I personally think such a thing is a waste of time, but I want everything out there because the truth will come out sooner or later, as it always does.

: Also, Merv's assertion that people such as Darth Marley have been mailbombing me with complaints is totally ludicrous and strikes me as an indicator of Merv's paranoia, as well as solidifies what I've found to be a characteristic of his personality: that he will take leaps of logic with pithy information and without thorough research. I have never corresponded with Marley or others (I've talked to Larocque, but that's because I respect him for all his work he's done with the original Battlestar Galactica FAQs and so forth); to continue, I've read what they've said on the boards and had I heeded them ''immediately'', this ban would have happened several months ago. Merv's popularity, or lack thereof, had no bearing on this decision -- it was his actions and his treatment of others both on and off wiki that came to a head. Call it the powder keg just waiting to be lit that Merv's actions (and consequences of his actions) have built up for months, if you will.

: There was no "ban Merv" caucus or calls from said non-existant caucus to ban Merv that lobbied me; Merv acted uncivily and nearly scared off new and even established contributors (that I know about, anyway), as a result, was banned indefinitely, until he wishes to act like a respectful human being and not the overbearing person he's projected himself to be.

: If Merv wants to be a part of a community, he can't act like the progeny of a prima donna and pitbull. Such progency and the goals of a productive community are mutually exclusive and have no place with one another.

: Humility. Integrity. Respect. Honesty. Collaboration. These are things that the wiki stands for and, quite frankly, Merv's actions do not fit in line with the philosophies of this wiki. And, needless to say, Merv is being watched very carefully [http://www.mortalstorm.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1012 now more than ever even from people who have better uses for their valuable time]. Think about that for a moment, or for as long as you need to... why would people waste their valuable time to watch him like a hawk?

: I think there is something very wrong with this picture, and it is something I have no desire to have this wiki be a part of. Hence my executive decision. Now I've said enough and have better things to accomplish... do excuse me. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:18, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::Thanks Joe for making such a concerted effort to explain yourself further. I think it helps make this page intelligible. It still bothers me somewhat that most of your complaints are from behaviour that is not clear & present but now ancient history as in it does make the timing seem somewhat arbitrary. If you were going to ban Merv over the KR incident then it should have been done long ago. To now name that incident as a major reason for his banning doesn't make much sense. The things you are saying about fresh altercations with new wiki members are very relevant but you seem to be not at liberty to discuss them further, which is unfortunate because that should be the meat of your case: it is that stuff that would be the most justifiable support for a move like this at this time, not the KR thing. Sometimes when you take a shotgun approach you damage your case, because it isn't clear to anyone exactly why all the stuff is a good reason now but wasn't a good reason then (is there is a timer that goes off six months after a bad act that results in a banning?). It invites speculation as to what is happening behind the scenes. Too bad you can't much talk about what I consider to be the only valid reasons you have named for taking a fresh look at Merv's membership status; knowing the history I'll take your word for it, but laying out this recent evidence would have been far preferable. I hope you know this and will consider how important that is in making this kind of announcement. The wiki is not in control of Merv's actions; but it is in control of its own actions, and the transparency and above-boardness with which you handle a banning speaks much more directly to the character of this place than anything done by one of its members.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 14:48, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree, Dogger - I feel that I must give Joe the benefit of the doubt on this matter, but we are at great risk of setting a bad precedent here. I eagerly anticipate a final report on the off-wiki behavior of Merv's which justified this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:07, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:Bad precedent, indeed. If I've read your arguments correctly, then generalized bad behavior AWAY from bsgwiki is considerable cause for banning ON bsgwiki. In light of this, I have a list of usernames I'd like to see banned for some serious bad behvaior on skiffy. Where would you like those names sent? What if I wanted to complain about Joe's "executive decision making" on this "community run board?" Who would I submit those anonymous, unrepeatable, and unspecified charges to? Just curious. Would it be possible for you "leaders" to post a really good list of offenses off-board that will get me banned here? I mean, I flipped off the guy who cut me off in traffic today. AND I made a really mean joke about Dualla on Skiffy sometime back and I REALLY upset a lot of people. Can I expect my login here to stop working? -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:01, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::If he wanted to be hated by the community in his own fashintion he can, but as soon as you link bad behaviour with the wiki using the wiki as a tool that's not correct. No ''one'' person speaks for the wiki, except Joe. I don't see any other users setting up camp on the SciFi Forums who speaks for the wikiw and then on top of that, "acts in bad faith" using the wiki as a tool. Name someone else who uses the wiki as a refernece on the SciFi forums in a bad manor. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:14, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
:::So, it was the incident from several months ago that prompted the banning (as opposed to recent, mysterious incidents) because he used battlestarwiki to paint a user in an extremely negative light. Not unlike, um, using the administrative banning function and associated talk pages to publicly humiliate a user with as broad coverage as possible. Oh, wait. Did I say that out loud? -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:31, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::::I did not say that. Joe statied it's a number of reasons. Current and past. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:41, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::Alrighty, I think the blonde girl has finally caught up with the logic train. The banning was the result of an offense committed months ago (that Joe is now also guilty of - using bsgwiki pages to publicly humiliate another member of fandom) and mysterious, unspecified charges levied by persons unknown. Got it. I do appreciate the clarifications. -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:48, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:::Aeryn, I thank you for sharing your point of view with us. It is very welcomed, although I would like to ask that you please calm yourself. This isn't end of the world type stuff we're talking about here.
:::However, you need to know that Merv placed himself in a position where he and the wiki were intertwined; this isn't one of our contributors going out and making mean or sexists jokes on the SciFi Bulletin Boards. (It's up to SciFi's administration on whether or not to deter that kind of behavior, not ours.) Essentially, '''had he not placed himself in a position to act (and insinuate that he was) the wiki's ''unauthorized'' promoter or placed the ''unauthorized'' banner beneath his posts with the URL and icon to this wiki then his off-wiki behavior would have never been brought into question'''. And this is not a one time incident, hence the creation of our [[BW:OR|Official Representation]] policy which, ironically or not, Merv supported. To go with what Peter said in one of Merv's previous RFAs, I am not concerned about what other people think of a contributor -- unless they ''deliberately'' placed themselves in a position to use the wiki as a backing to advance his own agendas. Agendas that he has made clear in the past. I am concerned about the image of the wiki, as well as ensuring that no ones contributions have been in vain because of the acts of a person or group out to advance an agenda. (This agenda will be made crystal clear once the dossier on Merv's overall behaviors on and off wiki have been completed and published.)
:::I will also state again that everything has a ''cumulative'' effect and Merv's behavior on-wiki has come first circle, much to the point where we nearly lost one very good contributor. For some time now I (and others) have had to deal with Merv's behavior to others and try to mitigate the damage. Were it not for the work of the dedicated individuals in this community to retain those upset members, we would have lost more people than Merv.
:::As you yourself may not be aware, we as admins and contributors have tried to make Merv understand that his treatment of others is destructive and damaging to a community. None of his behaviors to date are a surprise to either myself nor anyone else here who has been for more than six months. The fact that I had to perma-ban Merv disappoints me, because it tells me we have failed to help Merv modify his social skills to a point where he can be respectful of others and their opinions, regardless of whether he views them as "moronic" or vapid from his point of view.
:::At this point, my concern is whether or not the wiki will recover from the damage Merv's inflicted. For a place he claims to love so much, he's endangered all our work here with his actions... and I've sid enough, because I will wait for the dossier to come out and then, as it is said, the truth will attend to itself, because it always does one way or the other. And then you can all do with the dossier what you will; you can believe or not. The choice to believe or not to believe is up to you.
:::Thank you for your interest and your concern. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:51, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::::Joe, I find your comment to be condenscending and mean-spirited. I engaged your representative in a dialog concerning your unilateral action and your response is a very rude "calm yourself." I demand an apology for your poor judgment in dealing with me since I am, as far as I know, a member in good standing of this community. Your use of harsh words and offensive tone was derogative and completely unwarranted; I am deeply insulted and plan on quitting this board unless you apologize immediately. -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:58, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::::Aeryn, I did not mean to be mean spirited; I'm sorry if you viewed my words as mean spirited, I am merely concerned about ensuring that everyone remains calm. It does no one any good to act irrationally. I recognize that this is a highly emotional situation. For instance, I myself am not fond of making this decision, but all I ask is that people please wait until the evidence comes to light. Then you and everyone will better understand why I banned Merv for the ultimate good of this community. That's all I ask right now during this difficult time. Thank you. Now I'm going to get some sleep. Good night everyone. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 23:15, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
As a minor point of interest, a true apology is one in which the offender says "I am sorry for what I said/did" (taking responsibility for his actions) NOT one in which the offender says "I am sorry you didn't understand what I said/did" (taking no responsibility for his actions and placing blame on the other party). There is a difference. I am inclined to observe that the efforts to reform the student may not have succeeded because the teachers suffered the same failings. This is just a hypothesis, of course.

I AM one to mince words but I will get to the point anyway (finally). You had an opportunity and ability to handle this privately with Mero. But you chose instead to make a broad, public statement via a project page and associated discussion; you CHOSE to publicly humilate someone who has worked tirelessly on behalf of your pet project when you had the opportunity to be silent and let the pieces fall where they may. From where I sit, this says much more about you and your approach to this "community" than it does about Mero. In the same project page you tout your "executive decision making" powers but try to convince us "we are all one." The latter rings false in the shadow of the former.

Whether I agree with your decision or not is really irrelevant and I certainly do not dispute your right to make the call but I have serious doubts about your sincerity in light of your approach. This doesn't feel like the results of careful consideration and thoughtful examination of facts. It feels like opportunistic public flogging designed to inflict the most damage possible and to "recruit" people to your point of view. These aren't the actions of a good, reasonable administrator.

Of course, everyone here will agree that I am no one of any importance - just the hall monitor - and my opinions don't really matter all that much but I would invite you to consider that what has transpired here (the public nature of your decision implementation) may appease a few but many others will remember this course of events in a less positive light. -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 00:45, 2 September 2006 (CDT)

== [[User:Shane|Shane]]'s Comments ==

While Merv might see this as a sudden "ban", I don't really think it was. Merv has been giving tons of opportunity to mend relationships with the community a dozen of times. A simple, "Thank you" or "I am sorry." or "I made a mistake. Please forgive it." would have gone a long way.

I realize now, after all this time, that [[User:Peter Farago]] deserved a sorry from me because of the two RFC's I filled against him in protest in defending Merv's actions. While I got one a while back when my first RFC was posted by Peter.

Merv, if you want to discuss the polices that you broke, all you need to do is look up all the pages in the Battlestar Wiki namespace. The admins gave you tons of chances and though maybe a mistake on their part for now being more tough on the rules, you should have been able to follow your own suggestions as you did when voting for the [[BW:OR]] policy, the first one in-fact. The [[BW:TANK]] was created so I had an avenue to get my ideas out and you know what.. it worked. the [[BW:OR]] was for you, you didn't know that, but you through it was a good idea after the KR incident.

You say you could not use the high complex templates? I was always willing to help, yet I never got a message saying something. I hope, that you can make peace with yourself, otherwise you will never be able to get along with people in real life. If you were so ambitious why you were blocked, do a search on your username in all the forums that you do. Re-read your posts. Look at where you might have said something that might have offended people. You said once that the Battlestar Wiki article that it was deleted and should not have been because it was just like Memory Alpha. Memory Alpha is a bit larger and it has a little bit more fame since it's been around. But did you ever check the AFD page? Joe, an admin of Wikipedia, voted to delete it. ([[State of the Wiki II]])

As for the wiki, drastic actions as in resorting to outside forums to further your cause also inside the wiki was not a good idea. When you first did it with me and the portals, I found info on two different forums. One was SciFi and the other was the GalacicaBS forums. Why am I being smeared to something that would have a positive effect on the wiki as a whole? Why?

Do you want to know why the person came to me? Because they didn't know if they could bring issues to Joe directly. It could have been the other way around and I could have been out-of-the loop up to the ban and still not what was going on. People came to be because I was fair and have always been fair. (Also since I have direct contact with Joe kinda helps, but that's a side factor). I don't know why you think it was the guys over a MS or Frackheads (?). Can't you think that it ''was'' someone who was part of the Wiki? And before you ask yourself, it was not me. Granted, I spend a ton of time here, and know what goes on, I know how people feel.

Anyway, you can contact me via email if you want. You know how.

P.S. Adminship does not grant one "ambasatorship".

P.S.S. If you can prove to the heart that you can be curtiousto others and show that you can repect over people for what they do and how they do it, you will never know if you will be allowed back here. Take this as a vacation as I did. Come back with a fresh view. It might be benifit to your understanding with Joe and the community. You can only prove it to yourself that you can be true to the guidelines of the site that you love.

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 14:56, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

Merv needs to grow up. The guy has shown that he has little social skills and alienates fans who don't need to know about the board politics. It's not about him; it's about the show. If he wants to show some humility he'll continue to contribute without attribution. Starting with the podcast transcriptions.{{unsigned|Hal Levolier}}

Battlestar Wiki talk:The Merovingian Ban

2006-09-02T03:58:30Z

AerynSun44: /* Comments */

<div class="messagebox"><h3>Please REMEMBER TO BE COURTEOUS and [[Wikipedia:WP:CIVIL|WP:CIVIL]] AS The Merovingian CAN NOT RESPOND. This is a remember to all parties adding comments to this page... myself included. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:00, 1 September 2006 (CDT)</h3></div>
== Comments ==
It must have been a hard decision to take such a drastic action, but I'm sure that this move will only benefit the wiki in the future. --[[User:Ribsy|Ribsy]] 00:14, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
:I'm intrigued to know what's happened in the last few days for such a hard decision to be made. I was on vacation from the wiki all last week and I dont use Skiffy boards or other forums to know what happens off-wiki... --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:07, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
:I suspect the off-wiki behavior has just come to a head. But I'd not speculate further. We are what we are outside and inside the wiki. While Merv's face was improving here, it seems he began to claim the wiki as his own, and this isn't a place we can take ownership in. We can all take pride in adding our own contributions to form, together, one great resource for everyone, yes, but we can not take ownership to be point of being catty, rude or representing yourself as a wiki official without authorization. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:42, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
::It was not only that, but his general behavior to people off-wiki -- his behavior even prompted RDM's own wife, Terry, who posts on the SciFi.com boards as "Mrs Ron", to [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=2056843&Searchpage=1&Main=2056837&Words=moron+The_Merovingian&topic=&Search=true#Post2056843 warn Merv about his's own behavior]. (In light of how she herself is painted as "a champion of [Merv's] bad behavior", I do not envy her current position as well, which apparently [http://www.mortalstorm.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1012 mirrors our own] in some ways.) What I do know through conversing with others who aren't contributors to the Wiki, but have their pulse on the fandom, is that he has damaged the wiki through his actions as he is associated with us. (He's made this association clear through a banner on the SciFi.com boards, a banner that I will ask be removed from his signature immediately.) I ''know'' that he's caused damage to the wiki; it's not like any of this is not out there on the boards and the like -- it is. I've tried to establsh damage control, hence the [[BW:OR|Official Representation]] policy, which, I will freely admit, is a direct response to Merv's previous actions. He has (almost) cost us a very good contributor in the process just within the ''last 48 hours'' and, in talking with others, I have determined that an RFC would have caused much, much more issues than the primary issue we were attempting to fix. I'll make it pretty clear that this decision was not a spur of the moment; I've thought about it intermittently for some time now, until I could put the pieces together all of the events that have transpired for the last six to eight months, without massive bias on either side of the issue. The sad thing is that it all adds up to a very nasty picture, which I refuse to have this wiki be a part of. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:35, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
I dont need to know about the reasons that leave to Merv´s banning ,hes childish behavior and arrogance are very well known arround the BSG fanbase.These action open the gate to our group of fans that avoided these place because we didnt want any involment to do with the Merovignian.
The FRAKHEADS! and the BSG-55 board will celebrate these desition and ad theyr contributions to the BSG wiki project.

Moctezuma.
BSG-55 FRAKHEADS! {{unsigned|Moctezuma}}--[[User:Moctezuma|Moctezuma]] 19:17, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

Dont worry about these site image on the contraire,the relevance of the content and the profesional structure are really amazing, im very pleased to read about a young profesional entrepenour like you and the TEAM that makes these site posible.--[[User:Moctezuma|Moctezuma]] 19:17, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
: Thank you for your kind words. I personally appreciate them. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:22, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

I don't understand what has prompted this move at this time, and there is nothing in your announcement, Joe, that really explains it. I have been clued out of the community for a few weeks now, and there may well have been some new incident that showed Merv not only to be unworthy of adminship, but unworthy of editing as well. But if there is, you haven't cited it. When I saw the title of this page I expected to see laid out for me a series of recent references to Merv's transgressions both here and off-site. I didn't get it. Why not? Banning people out of the blue for vaguely generalised past behaviour casts, IMO, an even worse impression on the wiki. Is it because he called somebody a moron in that thread? If it is, just say so. Why the hints and characterisations? Is the trigger that MrsRon spoke against him? I wouldn't call what she wrote a scathing indictment, just a mild voice of reason.

Judging from the arguments I have seen from people on this site in such matters, which have been generally very rational and of a high level, I find this announcement disappointing, more for the content of the announcement than the actual decision that was taken. It comes across as an emotional reaction -- something that I thought the wiki was above indulging. If you were going to ban somebody from editing, I would expect this to include a carefully cited set of examples of his behaviour, not a link to a single slur wrapped in several paragraphs of what basically boils down to 'People don't think he's cool and therefore they think the wiki isn't cool.' I suggest that in the future if you ban anyone from doing anything that you dispense entirely with all of the talk about wiki's reputation (which dominates your announcement and is not on point, i.e. it's not the relevant issue), and instead take a much more rational and carefully laid out approach that concentrates on examples (especially recent ones) of Merv's actual behaviour, because without that, there is no 'there' there. And that presents the appearance at least of having arbitrarily and without careful consideration (but merely out of a sense of fed-upness) chosen a side in what is ultimately a personality conflict in fandom, and chosen the side that will result in the least repercussions for the wiki. As in, maybe if you get rid of Merv the whole conflict will just go away? Okay, leave aside the fact that this doesn't seem to be an actual valid reason for banning anybody; more importantly, what happens to the next target chosen for unpopularity by your secret sources? Do we all have to curry favour now with certain off-wiki fan personalities to remain in good standing here? And exactly who are these people, anyway, with their "fingers on the pulse of fandom"? They don't have their fingers on MY pulse. You might as well have said that Merv has been excommunicated because a shadowy figure came to your doorway and slipped you a note after you left an X on your window. It really leaves an awful impression.

I don't really have time to debate this at length, but I think the way this decision was presented reflects very poorly on the wiki, because I find most of the things you have talked about to be not relevant. Think about somebody with no prior experience of this conflict reading what you just wrote, Joe. You have given this hypothetical newbie almost no actual clear and present reason to believe that The Merovingian is still the imperious dictator you say he is, and instead given him/her a major reason that is right in their face to believe exactly that about you and about the wiki.

I'm not asking that you reverse the decision. I don't know enough to say that. As I say, I have not been privy to what's been going on, which is why the paper-thinness of what is on this page is so glaringly obvious. But I hope that in the future any bannings of longtime members that are under consideration will be handled much more carefully and methodically than what I see here. It also would help if there were reference made to violations of an official policy on exactly what is bannable and what is not. Is being unpopular with other fans a bannable offence? You give a very strong impression here that it is.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 03:22, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

: What prompted the banning were the fact that, repeatedly, editors have tried to up and leave regarding his behavior -- behavior which is well documented on the message boards to which he participates as well as the wiki. It is not only pathetic that I have to keep on talking down contributors who have had issues with Merv, but it is also pathetic that people, like Shane (who isn't even an admin, for pete's sake), have to talk people out of doing such an act. Perhaps you didn't know this, as it wasn't common knowledge, but myself and the other administrators, such as Peter, have been endeavoring to help Merv soften his behavior. For a while, it seems he was improving in his behavior, until the complaints -- from people who hardly participate in message boards -- started rolling in ''again''.

: I'm not going to release names because they have come to me in confidence -- though I do hope that they have the courage to come forward, since I believe it would be cathartic for them. But Merv is directly responsible for us almost losing a very good member of this community 24 hours prior to making my decision.

: We have had issues with Merv for quite some time now, including the whole KR thing which, sad to say, almost damaged the wiki more than I've ever let on. This is detailed in his three Requests for Adminship, which I believe you may have read, as well as throughout the wiki. Feel free to do a search in our wiki, or even a Google search. (As I said, it's all out there for review.)

: Merv has also attempted to comport himself as taking ownership of the wiki on various occassions, despite our attempts to curtail such behavior by establishing [[Battlestar Wiki:Official Representation|our Official Representation policy]]. No one here, including myself (who shoulders the burden of financing, tech support, and being the one who tends to mediate issues here), dares take ownership of the wiki because it is a '''team effort'''. '''We are one''' here; everyone works together to build this reference. If there is someone who tries to use Battlestar Wiki as his personal pulpit, such as in the whole KR thing which is documented in [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Citation_Jihad/Archive02#Koenigrules_.2F_Hollywood_North_Report our archives here], then they will reap the consequences of doing such a thing from not only myself, but from the community.

: Fact of the matter is that I haven't included links due to the fact that his behavior outside the wiki and goals are so glaringly apparent that I believed such a thing was unnecessary; I now know why he was so insistant on [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=48191#RFA getting adminship here at the wiki as well], which was to solidfy a position to be some sort of prima donna information broker in the fandom. (This motivation doubtless lead to the near-disasterous incident with KR, which Peter should be thanked for mitigating.) I firmly believe that Merv never wanted the responsibility; he wanted the title, which is something that the cynical part of me has always suspected.

: To satisfy your curiousity regarding links and a dossier of his behavior on and off wiki, there are people who are working to create a compilation of all of Merv's replies and actions to date. A link to it, most likely in PDF format, will be uploaded to my website and linked here as an archive for all to see upon completion and review. I personally think such a thing is a waste of time, but I want everything out there because the truth will come out sooner or later, as it always does.

: Also, Merv's assertion that people such as Darth Marley have been mailbombing me with complaints is totally ludicrous and strikes me as an indicator of Merv's paranoia, as well as solidifies what I've found to be a characteristic of his personality: that he will take leaps of logic with pithy information and without thorough research. I have never corresponded with Marley or others (I've talked to Larocque, but that's because I respect him for all his work he's done with the original Battlestar Galactica FAQs and so forth); to continue, I've read what they've said on the boards and had I heeded them ''immediately'', this ban would have happened several months ago. Merv's popularity, or lack thereof, had no bearing on this decision -- it was his actions and his treatment of others both on and off wiki that came to a head. Call it the powder keg just waiting to be lit that Merv's actions (and consequences of his actions) have built up for months, if you will.

: There was no "ban Merv" caucus or calls from said non-existant caucus to ban Merv that lobbied me; Merv acted uncivily and nearly scared off new and even established contributors (that I know about, anyway), as a result, was banned indefinitely, until he wishes to act like a respectful human being and not the overbearing person he's projected himself to be.

: If Merv wants to be a part of a community, he can't act like the progeny of a prima donna and pitbull. Such progency and the goals of a productive community are mutually exclusive and have no place with one another.

: Humility. Integrity. Respect. Honesty. Collaboration. These are things that the wiki stands for and, quite frankly, Merv's actions do not fit in line with the philosophies of this wiki. And, needless to say, Merv is being watched very carefully [http://www.mortalstorm.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1012 now more than ever even from people who have better uses for their valuable time]. Think about that for a moment, or for as long as you need to... why would people waste their valuable time to watch him like a hawk?

: I think there is something very wrong with this picture, and it is something I have no desire to have this wiki be a part of. Hence my executive decision. Now I've said enough and have better things to accomplish... do excuse me. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:18, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::Thanks Joe for making such a concerted effort to explain yourself further. I think it helps make this page intelligible. It still bothers me somewhat that most of your complaints are from behaviour that is not clear & present but now ancient history as in it does make the timing seem somewhat arbitrary. If you were going to ban Merv over the KR incident then it should have been done long ago. To now name that incident as a major reason for his banning doesn't make much sense. The things you are saying about fresh altercations with new wiki members are very relevant but you seem to be not at liberty to discuss them further, which is unfortunate because that should be the meat of your case: it is that stuff that would be the most justifiable support for a move like this at this time, not the KR thing. Sometimes when you take a shotgun approach you damage your case, because it isn't clear to anyone exactly why all the stuff is a good reason now but wasn't a good reason then (is there is a timer that goes off six months after a bad act that results in a banning?). It invites speculation as to what is happening behind the scenes. Too bad you can't much talk about what I consider to be the only valid reasons you have named for taking a fresh look at Merv's membership status; knowing the history I'll take your word for it, but laying out this recent evidence would have been far preferable. I hope you know this and will consider how important that is in making this kind of announcement. The wiki is not in control of Merv's actions; but it is in control of its own actions, and the transparency and above-boardness with which you handle a banning speaks much more directly to the character of this place than anything done by one of its members.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 14:48, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree, Dogger - I feel that I must give Joe the benefit of the doubt on this matter, but we are at great risk of setting a bad precedent here. I eagerly anticipate a final report on the off-wiki behavior of Merv's which justified this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:07, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:Bad precedent, indeed. If I've read your arguments correctly, then generalized bad behavior AWAY from bsgwiki is considerable cause for banning ON bsgwiki. In light of this, I have a list of usernames I'd like to see banned for some serious bad behvaior on skiffy. Where would you like those names sent? What if I wanted to complain about Joe's "executive decision making" on this "community run board?" Who would I submit those anonymous, unrepeatable, and unspecified charges to? Just curious. Would it be possible for you "leaders" to post a really good list of offenses off-board that will get me banned here? I mean, I flipped off the guy who cut me off in traffic today. AND I made a really mean joke about Dualla on Skiffy sometime back and I REALLY upset a lot of people. Can I expect my login here to stop working? -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:01, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::If he wanted to be hated by the community in his own fashintion he can, but as soon as you link bad behaviour with the wiki using the wiki as a tool that's not correct. No ''one'' person speaks for the wiki, except Joe. I don't see any other users setting up camp on the SciFi Forums who speaks for the wikiw and then on top of that, "acts in bad faith" using the wiki as a tool. Name someone else who uses the wiki as a refernece on the SciFi forums in a bad manor. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:14, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
:::So, it was the incident from several months ago that prompted the banning (as opposed to recent, mysterious incidents) because he used battlestarwiki to paint a user in an extremely negative light. Not unlike, um, using the administrative banning function and associated talk pages to publicly humiliate a user with as broad coverage as possible. Oh, wait. Did I say that out loud? -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:31, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::::I did not say that. Joe statied it's a number of reasons. Current and past. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:41, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::Alrighty, I think the blonde girl has finally caught up with the logic train. The banning was the result of an offense committed months ago (that Joe is now also guilty of - using bsgwiki pages to publicly humiliate another member of fandom) and mysterious, unspecified charges levied by persons unknown. Got it. I do appreciate the clarifications. -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:48, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:::Aeryn, I thank you for sharing your point of view with us. It is very welcomed, although I would like to ask that you please calm yourself. This isn't end of the world type stuff we're talking about here.
:::However, you need to know that Merv placed himself in a position where he and the wiki were intertwined; this isn't one of our contributors going out and making mean or sexists jokes on the SciFi Bulletin Boards. (It's up to SciFi's administration on whether or not to deter that kind of behavior, not ours.) Essentially, '''had he not placed himself in a position to act (and insinuate that he was) the wiki's ''unauthorized'' promoter or placed the ''unauthorized'' banner beneath his posts with the URL and icon to this wiki then his off-wiki behavior would have never been brought into question'''. And this is not a one time incident, hence the creation of our [[BW:OR|Official Representation]] policy which, ironically or not, Merv supported. To go with what Peter said in one of Merv's previous RFAs, I am not concerned about what other people think of a contributor -- unless they ''deliberately'' placed themselves in a position to use the wiki as a backing to advance his own agendas. Agendas that he has made clear in the past. I am concerned about the image of the wiki, as well as ensuring that no ones contributions have been in vain because of the acts of a person or group out to advance an agenda. (This agenda will be made crystal clear once the dossier on Merv's overall behaviors on and off wiki have been completed and published.)
:::I will also state again that everything has a ''cumulative'' effect and Merv's behavior on-wiki has come first circle, much to the point where we nearly lost one very good contributor. For some time now I (and others) have had to deal with Merv's behavior to others and try to mitigate the damage. Were it not for the work of the dedicated individuals in this community to retain those upset members, we would have lost more people than Merv.
:::As you yourself may not be aware, we as admins and contributors have tried to make Merv understand that his treatment of others is destructive and damaging to a community. None of his behaviors to date are a surprise to either myself nor anyone else here who has been for more than six months. The fact that I had to perma-ban Merv disappoints me, because it tells me we have failed to help Merv modify his social skills to a point where he can be respectful of others and their opinions, regardless of whether he views them as "moronic" or vapid from his point of view.
:::At this point, my concern is whether or not the wiki will recover from the damage Merv's inflicted. For a place he claims to love so much, he's endangered all our work here with his actions... and I've sid enough, because I will wait for the dossier to come out and then, as it is said, the truth will attend to itself, because it always does one way or the other. And then you can all do with the dossier what you will; you can believe or not. The choice to believe or not to believe is up to you.
:::Thank you for your interest and your concern. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:51, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::::Joe, I find your comment to be condenscending and mean-spirited. I engaged your representative in a dialog concerning your unilateral action and your response is a very rude "calm yourself." I demand an apology for your poor judgment in dealing with me since I am, as far as I know, a member in good standing of this community. Your use of harsh words and offensive tone was derogative and completely unwarranted; I am deeply insulted and plan on quitting this board unless you apologize immediately. -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:58, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

== [[User:Shane|Shane]]'s Comments ==

While Merv might see this as a sudden "ban", I don't really think it was. Merv has been giving tons of opportunity to mend relationships with the community a dozen of times. A simple, "Thank you" or "I am sorry." or "I made a mistake. Please forgive it." would have gone a long way.

I realize now, after all this time, that [[User:Peter Farago]] deserved a sorry from me because of the two RFC's I filled against him in protest in defending Merv's actions. While I got one a while back when my first RFC was posted by Peter.

Merv, if you want to discuss the polices that you broke, all you need to do is look up all the pages in the Battlestar Wiki namespace. The admins gave you tons of chances and though maybe a mistake on their part for now being more tough on the rules, you should have been able to follow your own suggestions as you did when voting for the [[BW:OR]] policy, the first one in-fact. The [[BW:TANK]] was created so I had an avenue to get my ideas out and you know what.. it worked. the [[BW:OR]] was for you, you didn't know that, but you through it was a good idea after the KR incident.

You say you could not use the high complex templates? I was always willing to help, yet I never got a message saying something. I hope, that you can make peace with yourself, otherwise you will never be able to get along with people in real life. If you were so ambitious why you were blocked, do a search on your username in all the forums that you do. Re-read your posts. Look at where you might have said something that might have offended people. You said once that the Battlestar Wiki article that it was deleted and should not have been because it was just like Memory Alpha. Memory Alpha is a bit larger and it has a little bit more fame since it's been around. But did you ever check the AFD page? Joe, an admin of Wikipedia, voted to delete it. ([[State of the Wiki II]])

As for the wiki, drastic actions as in resorting to outside forums to further your cause also inside the wiki was not a good idea. When you first did it with me and the portals, I found info on two different forums. One was SciFi and the other was the GalacicaBS forums. Why am I being smeared to something that would have a positive effect on the wiki as a whole? Why?

Do you want to know why the person came to me? Because they didn't know if they could bring issues to Joe directly. It could have been the other way around and I could have been out-of-the loop up to the ban and still not what was going on. People came to be because I was fair and have always been fair. (Also since I have direct contact with Joe kinda helps, but that's a side factor). I don't know why you think it was the guys over a MS or Frackheads (?). Can't you think that it ''was'' someone who was part of the Wiki? And before you ask yourself, it was not me. Granted, I spend a ton of time here, and know what goes on, I know how people feel.

Anyway, you can contact me via email if you want. You know how.

P.S. Adminship does not grant one "ambasatorship".

P.S.S. If you can prove to the heart that you can be curtiousto others and show that you can repect over people for what they do and how they do it, you will never know if you will be allowed back here. Take this as a vacation as I did. Come back with a fresh view. It might be benifit to your understanding with Joe and the community. You can only prove it to yourself that you can be true to the guidelines of the site that you love.

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 14:56, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki talk:The Merovingian Ban

2006-09-02T03:48:30Z

AerynSun44:

<div class="messagebox"><h3>Please REMEMBER TO BE COURTEOUS and [[Wikipedia:WP:CIVIL|WP:CIVIL]] AS The Merovingian CAN NOT RESPOND. This is a remember to all parties adding comments to this page... myself included. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:00, 1 September 2006 (CDT)</h3></div>

It must have been a hard decision to take such a drastic action, but I'm sure that this move will only benefit the wiki in the future. --[[User:Ribsy|Ribsy]] 00:14, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
:I'm intrigued to know what's happened in the last few days for such a hard decision to be made. I was on vacation from the wiki all last week and I dont use Skiffy boards or other forums to know what happens off-wiki... --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:07, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
:I suspect the off-wiki behavior has just come to a head. But I'd not speculate further. We are what we are outside and inside the wiki. While Merv's face was improving here, it seems he began to claim the wiki as his own, and this isn't a place we can take ownership in. We can all take pride in adding our own contributions to form, together, one great resource for everyone, yes, but we can not take ownership to be point of being catty, rude or representing yourself as a wiki official without authorization. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:42, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
::It was not only that, but his general behavior to people off-wiki -- his behavior even prompted RDM's own wife, Terry, who posts on the SciFi.com boards as "Mrs Ron", to [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=2056843&Searchpage=1&Main=2056837&Words=moron+The_Merovingian&topic=&Search=true#Post2056843 warn Merv about his's own behavior]. (In light of how she herself is painted as "a champion of [Merv's] bad behavior", I do not envy her current position as well, which apparently [http://www.mortalstorm.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1012 mirrors our own] in some ways.) What I do know through conversing with others who aren't contributors to the Wiki, but have their pulse on the fandom, is that he has damaged the wiki through his actions as he is associated with us. (He's made this association clear through a banner on the SciFi.com boards, a banner that I will ask be removed from his signature immediately.) I ''know'' that he's caused damage to the wiki; it's not like any of this is not out there on the boards and the like -- it is. I've tried to establsh damage control, hence the [[BW:OR|Official Representation]] policy, which, I will freely admit, is a direct response to Merv's previous actions. He has (almost) cost us a very good contributor in the process just within the ''last 48 hours'' and, in talking with others, I have determined that an RFC would have caused much, much more issues than the primary issue we were attempting to fix. I'll make it pretty clear that this decision was not a spur of the moment; I've thought about it intermittently for some time now, until I could put the pieces together all of the events that have transpired for the last six to eight months, without massive bias on either side of the issue. The sad thing is that it all adds up to a very nasty picture, which I refuse to have this wiki be a part of. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:35, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
I dont need to know about the reasons that leave to Merv´s banning ,hes childish behavior and arrogance are very well known arround the BSG fanbase.These action open the gate to our group of fans that avoided these place because we didnt want any involment to do with the Merovignian.
The FRAKHEADS! and the BSG-55 board will celebrate these desition and ad theyr contributions to the BSG wiki project.

Moctezuma.
BSG-55 FRAKHEADS! {{unsigned|Moctezuma}}--[[User:Moctezuma|Moctezuma]] 19:17, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

Dont worry about these site image on the contraire,the relevance of the content and the profesional structure are really amazing, im very pleased to read about a young profesional entrepenour like you and the TEAM that makes these site posible.--[[User:Moctezuma|Moctezuma]] 19:17, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
: Thank you for your kind words. I personally appreciate them. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:22, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

I don't understand what has prompted this move at this time, and there is nothing in your announcement, Joe, that really explains it. I have been clued out of the community for a few weeks now, and there may well have been some new incident that showed Merv not only to be unworthy of adminship, but unworthy of editing as well. But if there is, you haven't cited it. When I saw the title of this page I expected to see laid out for me a series of recent references to Merv's transgressions both here and off-site. I didn't get it. Why not? Banning people out of the blue for vaguely generalised past behaviour casts, IMO, an even worse impression on the wiki. Is it because he called somebody a moron in that thread? If it is, just say so. Why the hints and characterisations? Is the trigger that MrsRon spoke against him? I wouldn't call what she wrote a scathing indictment, just a mild voice of reason.

Judging from the arguments I have seen from people on this site in such matters, which have been generally very rational and of a high level, I find this announcement disappointing, more for the content of the announcement than the actual decision that was taken. It comes across as an emotional reaction -- something that I thought the wiki was above indulging. If you were going to ban somebody from editing, I would expect this to include a carefully cited set of examples of his behaviour, not a link to a single slur wrapped in several paragraphs of what basically boils down to 'People don't think he's cool and therefore they think the wiki isn't cool.' I suggest that in the future if you ban anyone from doing anything that you dispense entirely with all of the talk about wiki's reputation (which dominates your announcement and is not on point, i.e. it's not the relevant issue), and instead take a much more rational and carefully laid out approach that concentrates on examples (especially recent ones) of Merv's actual behaviour, because without that, there is no 'there' there. And that presents the appearance at least of having arbitrarily and without careful consideration (but merely out of a sense of fed-upness) chosen a side in what is ultimately a personality conflict in fandom, and chosen the side that will result in the least repercussions for the wiki. As in, maybe if you get rid of Merv the whole conflict will just go away? Okay, leave aside the fact that this doesn't seem to be an actual valid reason for banning anybody; more importantly, what happens to the next target chosen for unpopularity by your secret sources? Do we all have to curry favour now with certain off-wiki fan personalities to remain in good standing here? And exactly who are these people, anyway, with their "fingers on the pulse of fandom"? They don't have their fingers on MY pulse. You might as well have said that Merv has been excommunicated because a shadowy figure came to your doorway and slipped you a note after you left an X on your window. It really leaves an awful impression.

I don't really have time to debate this at length, but I think the way this decision was presented reflects very poorly on the wiki, because I find most of the things you have talked about to be not relevant. Think about somebody with no prior experience of this conflict reading what you just wrote, Joe. You have given this hypothetical newbie almost no actual clear and present reason to believe that The Merovingian is still the imperious dictator you say he is, and instead given him/her a major reason that is right in their face to believe exactly that about you and about the wiki.

I'm not asking that you reverse the decision. I don't know enough to say that. As I say, I have not been privy to what's been going on, which is why the paper-thinness of what is on this page is so glaringly obvious. But I hope that in the future any bannings of longtime members that are under consideration will be handled much more carefully and methodically than what I see here. It also would help if there were reference made to violations of an official policy on exactly what is bannable and what is not. Is being unpopular with other fans a bannable offence? You give a very strong impression here that it is.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 03:22, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

: What prompted the banning were the fact that, repeatedly, editors have tried to up and leave regarding his behavior -- behavior which is well documented on the message boards to which he participates as well as the wiki. It is not only pathetic that I have to keep on talking down contributors who have had issues with Merv, but it is also pathetic that people, like Shane (who isn't even an admin, for pete's sake), have to talk people out of doing such an act. Perhaps you didn't know this, as it wasn't common knowledge, but myself and the other administrators, such as Peter, have been endeavoring to help Merv soften his behavior. For a while, it seems he was improving in his behavior, until the complaints -- from people who hardly participate in message boards -- started rolling in ''again''.

: I'm not going to release names because they have come to me in confidence -- though I do hope that they have the courage to come forward, since I believe it would be cathartic for them. But Merv is directly responsible for us almost losing a very good member of this community 24 hours prior to making my decision.

: We have had issues with Merv for quite some time now, including the whole KR thing which, sad to say, almost damaged the wiki more than I've ever let on. This is detailed in his three Requests for Adminship, which I believe you may have read, as well as throughout the wiki. Feel free to do a search in our wiki, or even a Google search. (As I said, it's all out there for review.)

: Merv has also attempted to comport himself as taking ownership of the wiki on various occassions, despite our attempts to curtail such behavior by establishing [[Battlestar Wiki:Official Representation|our Official Representation policy]]. No one here, including myself (who shoulders the burden of financing, tech support, and being the one who tends to mediate issues here), dares take ownership of the wiki because it is a '''team effort'''. '''We are one''' here; everyone works together to build this reference. If there is someone who tries to use Battlestar Wiki as his personal pulpit, such as in the whole KR thing which is documented in [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Citation_Jihad/Archive02#Koenigrules_.2F_Hollywood_North_Report our archives here], then they will reap the consequences of doing such a thing from not only myself, but from the community.

: Fact of the matter is that I haven't included links due to the fact that his behavior outside the wiki and goals are so glaringly apparent that I believed such a thing was unnecessary; I now know why he was so insistant on [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=48191#RFA getting adminship here at the wiki as well], which was to solidfy a position to be some sort of prima donna information broker in the fandom. (This motivation doubtless lead to the near-disasterous incident with KR, which Peter should be thanked for mitigating.) I firmly believe that Merv never wanted the responsibility; he wanted the title, which is something that the cynical part of me has always suspected.

: To satisfy your curiousity regarding links and a dossier of his behavior on and off wiki, there are people who are working to create a compilation of all of Merv's replies and actions to date. A link to it, most likely in PDF format, will be uploaded to my website and linked here as an archive for all to see upon completion and review. I personally think such a thing is a waste of time, but I want everything out there because the truth will come out sooner or later, as it always does.

: Also, Merv's assertion that people such as Darth Marley have been mailbombing me with complaints is totally ludicrous and strikes me as an indicator of Merv's paranoia, as well as solidifies what I've found to be a characteristic of his personality: that he will take leaps of logic with pithy information and without thorough research. I have never corresponded with Marley or others (I've talked to Larocque, but that's because I respect him for all his work he's done with the original Battlestar Galactica FAQs and so forth); to continue, I've read what they've said on the boards and had I heeded them ''immediately'', this ban would have happened several months ago. Merv's popularity, or lack thereof, had no bearing on this decision -- it was his actions and his treatment of others both on and off wiki that came to a head. Call it the powder keg just waiting to be lit that Merv's actions (and consequences of his actions) have built up for months, if you will.

: There was no "ban Merv" caucus or calls from said non-existant caucus to ban Merv that lobbied me; Merv acted uncivily and nearly scared off new and even established contributors (that I know about, anyway), as a result, was banned indefinitely, until he wishes to act like a respectful human being and not the overbearing person he's projected himself to be.

: If Merv wants to be a part of a community, he can't act like the progeny of a prima donna and pitbull. Such progency and the goals of a productive community are mutually exclusive and have no place with one another.

: Humility. Integrity. Respect. Honesty. Collaboration. These are things that the wiki stands for and, quite frankly, Merv's actions do not fit in line with the philosophies of this wiki. And, needless to say, Merv is being watched very carefully [http://www.mortalstorm.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1012 now more than ever even from people who have better uses for their valuable time]. Think about that for a moment, or for as long as you need to... why would people waste their valuable time to watch him like a hawk?

: I think there is something very wrong with this picture, and it is something I have no desire to have this wiki be a part of. Hence my executive decision. Now I've said enough and have better things to accomplish... do excuse me. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:18, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::Thanks Joe for making such a concerted effort to explain yourself further. I think it helps make this page intelligible. It still bothers me somewhat that most of your complaints are from behaviour that is not clear & present but now ancient history as in it does make the timing seem somewhat arbitrary. If you were going to ban Merv over the KR incident then it should have been done long ago. To now name that incident as a major reason for his banning doesn't make much sense. The things you are saying about fresh altercations with new wiki members are very relevant but you seem to be not at liberty to discuss them further, which is unfortunate because that should be the meat of your case: it is that stuff that would be the most justifiable support for a move like this at this time, not the KR thing. Sometimes when you take a shotgun approach you damage your case, because it isn't clear to anyone exactly why all the stuff is a good reason now but wasn't a good reason then (is there is a timer that goes off six months after a bad act that results in a banning?). It invites speculation as to what is happening behind the scenes. Too bad you can't much talk about what I consider to be the only valid reasons you have named for taking a fresh look at Merv's membership status; knowing the history I'll take your word for it, but laying out this recent evidence would have been far preferable. I hope you know this and will consider how important that is in making this kind of announcement. The wiki is not in control of Merv's actions; but it is in control of its own actions, and the transparency and above-boardness with which you handle a banning speaks much more directly to the character of this place than anything done by one of its members.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 14:48, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree, Dogger - I feel that I must give Joe the benefit of the doubt on this matter, but we are at great risk of setting a bad precedent here. I eagerly anticipate a final report on the off-wiki behavior of Merv's which justified this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:07, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:Bad precedent, indeed. If I've read your arguments correctly, then generalized bad behavior AWAY from bsgwiki is considerable cause for banning ON bsgwiki. In light of this, I have a list of usernames I'd like to see banned for some serious bad behvaior on skiffy. Where would you like those names sent? What if I wanted to complain about Joe's "executive decision making" on this "community run board?" Who would I submit those anonymous, unrepeatable, and unspecified charges to? Just curious. Would it be possible for you "leaders" to post a really good list of offenses off-board that will get me banned here? I mean, I flipped off the guy who cut me off in traffic today. AND I made a really mean joke about Dualla on Skiffy sometime back and I REALLY upset a lot of people. Can I expect my login here to stop working? -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:01, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::If he wanted to be hated by the community in his own fashintion he can, but as soon as you link bad behaviour with the wiki using the wiki as a tool that's not correct. No ''one'' person speaks for the wiki, except Joe. I don't see any other users setting up camp on the SciFi Forums who speaks for the wikiw and then on top of that, "acts in bad faith" using the wiki as a tool. Name someone else who uses the wiki as a refernece on the SciFi forums in a bad manor. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:14, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
:::So, it was the incident from several months ago that prompted the banning (as opposed to recent, mysterious incidents) because he used battlestarwiki to paint a user in an extremely negative light. Not unlike, um, using the administrative banning function and associated talk pages to publicly humiliate a user with as broad coverage as possible. Oh, wait. Did I say that out loud? -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:31, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::::I did not say that. Joe statied it's a number of reasons. Current and past. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:41, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
:::::Alrighty, I think the blonde girl has finally caught up with the logic train. The banning was the result of an offense committed months ago (that Joe is now also guilty of - using bsgwiki pages to publicly humiliate another member of fandom) and mysterious, unspecified charges levied by persons unknown. Got it. I do appreciate the clarifications. -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:48, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

== [[User:Shane|Shane]]'s Comments ==

While Merv might see this as a sudden "ban", I don't really think it was. Merv has been giving tons of opportunity to mend relationships with the community a dozen of times. A simple, "Thank you" or "I am sorry." or "I made a mistake. Please forgive it." would have gone a long way.

I realize now, after all this time, that [[User:Peter Farago]] deserved a sorry from me because of the two RFC's I filled against him in protest in defending Merv's actions. While I got one a while back when my first RFC was posted by Peter.

Merv, if you want to discuss the polices that you broke, all you need to do is look up all the pages in the Battlestar Wiki namespace. The admins gave you tons of chances and though maybe a mistake on their part for now being more tough on the rules, you should have been able to follow your own suggestions as you did when voting for the [[BW:OR]] policy, the first one in-fact. The [[BW:TANK]] was created so I had an avenue to get my ideas out and you know what.. it worked. the [[BW:OR]] was for you, you didn't know that, but you through it was a good idea after the KR incident.

You say you could not use the high complex templates? I was always willing to help, yet I never got a message saying something. I hope, that you can make peace with yourself, otherwise you will never be able to get along with people in real life. If you were so ambitious why you were blocked, do a search on your username in all the forums that you do. Re-read your posts. Look at where you might have said something that might have offended people. You said once that the Battlestar Wiki article that it was deleted and should not have been because it was just like Memory Alpha. Memory Alpha is a bit larger and it has a little bit more fame since it's been around. But did you ever check the AFD page? Joe, an admin of Wikipedia, voted to delete it. ([[State of the Wiki II]])

As for the wiki, drastic actions as in resorting to outside forums to further your cause also inside the wiki was not a good idea. When you first did it with me and the portals, I found info on two different forums. One was SciFi and the other was the GalacicaBS forums. Why am I being smeared to something that would have a positive effect on the wiki as a whole? Why?

Do you want to know why the person came to me? Because they didn't know if they could bring issues to Joe directly. It could have been the other way around and I could have been out-of-the loop up to the ban and still not what was going on. People came to be because I was fair and have always been fair. (Also since I have direct contact with Joe kinda helps, but that's a side factor). I don't know why you think it was the guys over a MS or Frackheads (?). Can't you think that it ''was'' someone who was part of the Wiki? And before you ask yourself, it was not me. Granted, I spend a ton of time here, and know what goes on, I know how people feel.

Anyway, you can contact me via email if you want. You know how.

P.S. Adminship does not grant one "ambasatorship".

P.S.S. If you can prove to the heart that you can be curtiousto others and show that you can repect over people for what they do and how they do it, you will never know if you will be allowed back here. Take this as a vacation as I did. Come back with a fresh view. It might be benifit to your understanding with Joe and the community. You can only prove it to yourself that you can be true to the guidelines of the site that you love.

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 14:56, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki talk:The Merovingian Ban

2006-09-02T03:31:47Z

AerynSun44:

<div class="messagebox"><h3>Please REMEMBER TO BE COURTEOUS and [[Wikipedia:WP:CIVIL|WP:CIVIL]] AS The Merovingian CAN NOT RESPOND. This is a remember to all parties adding comments to this page... myself included. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:00, 1 September 2006 (CDT)</h3></div>

It must have been a hard decision to take such a drastic action, but I'm sure that this move will only benefit the wiki in the future. --[[User:Ribsy|Ribsy]] 00:14, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
:I'm intrigued to know what's happened in the last few days for such a hard decision to be made. I was on vacation from the wiki all last week and I dont use Skiffy boards or other forums to know what happens off-wiki... --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:07, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
:I suspect the off-wiki behavior has just come to a head. But I'd not speculate further. We are what we are outside and inside the wiki. While Merv's face was improving here, it seems he began to claim the wiki as his own, and this isn't a place we can take ownership in. We can all take pride in adding our own contributions to form, together, one great resource for everyone, yes, but we can not take ownership to be point of being catty, rude or representing yourself as a wiki official without authorization. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:42, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
::It was not only that, but his general behavior to people off-wiki -- his behavior even prompted RDM's own wife, Terry, who posts on the SciFi.com boards as "Mrs Ron", to [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=2056843&Searchpage=1&Main=2056837&Words=moron+The_Merovingian&topic=&Search=true#Post2056843 warn Merv about his's own behavior]. (In light of how she herself is painted as "a champion of [Merv's] bad behavior", I do not envy her current position as well, which apparently [http://www.mortalstorm.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1012 mirrors our own] in some ways.) What I do know through conversing with others who aren't contributors to the Wiki, but have their pulse on the fandom, is that he has damaged the wiki through his actions as he is associated with us. (He's made this association clear through a banner on the SciFi.com boards, a banner that I will ask be removed from his signature immediately.) I ''know'' that he's caused damage to the wiki; it's not like any of this is not out there on the boards and the like -- it is. I've tried to establsh damage control, hence the [[BW:OR|Official Representation]] policy, which, I will freely admit, is a direct response to Merv's previous actions. He has (almost) cost us a very good contributor in the process just within the ''last 48 hours'' and, in talking with others, I have determined that an RFC would have caused much, much more issues than the primary issue we were attempting to fix. I'll make it pretty clear that this decision was not a spur of the moment; I've thought about it intermittently for some time now, until I could put the pieces together all of the events that have transpired for the last six to eight months, without massive bias on either side of the issue. The sad thing is that it all adds up to a very nasty picture, which I refuse to have this wiki be a part of. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:35, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
I dont need to know about the reasons that leave to Merv´s banning ,hes childish behavior and arrogance are very well known arround the BSG fanbase.These action open the gate to our group of fans that avoided these place because we didnt want any involment to do with the Merovignian.
The FRAKHEADS! and the BSG-55 board will celebrate these desition and ad theyr contributions to the BSG wiki project.

Moctezuma.
BSG-55 FRAKHEADS! {{unsigned|Moctezuma}}--[[User:Moctezuma|Moctezuma]] 19:17, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

Dont worry about these site image on the contraire,the relevance of the content and the profesional structure are really amazing, im very pleased to read about a young profesional entrepenour like you and the TEAM that makes these site posible.--[[User:Moctezuma|Moctezuma]] 19:17, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
: Thank you for your kind words. I personally appreciate them. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:22, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

I don't understand what has prompted this move at this time, and there is nothing in your announcement, Joe, that really explains it. I have been clued out of the community for a few weeks now, and there may well have been some new incident that showed Merv not only to be unworthy of adminship, but unworthy of editing as well. But if there is, you haven't cited it. When I saw the title of this page I expected to see laid out for me a series of recent references to Merv's transgressions both here and off-site. I didn't get it. Why not? Banning people out of the blue for vaguely generalised past behaviour casts, IMO, an even worse impression on the wiki. Is it because he called somebody a moron in that thread? If it is, just say so. Why the hints and characterisations? Is the trigger that MrsRon spoke against him? I wouldn't call what she wrote a scathing indictment, just a mild voice of reason.

Judging from the arguments I have seen from people on this site in such matters, which have been generally very rational and of a high level, I find this announcement disappointing, more for the content of the announcement than the actual decision that was taken. It comes across as an emotional reaction -- something that I thought the wiki was above indulging. If you were going to ban somebody from editing, I would expect this to include a carefully cited set of examples of his behaviour, not a link to a single slur wrapped in several paragraphs of what basically boils down to 'People don't think he's cool and therefore they think the wiki isn't cool.' I suggest that in the future if you ban anyone from doing anything that you dispense entirely with all of the talk about wiki's reputation (which dominates your announcement and is not on point, i.e. it's not the relevant issue), and instead take a much more rational and carefully laid out approach that concentrates on examples (especially recent ones) of Merv's actual behaviour, because without that, there is no 'there' there. And that presents the appearance at least of having arbitrarily and without careful consideration (but merely out of a sense of fed-upness) chosen a side in what is ultimately a personality conflict in fandom, and chosen the side that will result in the least repercussions for the wiki. As in, maybe if you get rid of Merv the whole conflict will just go away? Okay, leave aside the fact that this doesn't seem to be an actual valid reason for banning anybody; more importantly, what happens to the next target chosen for unpopularity by your secret sources? Do we all have to curry favour now with certain off-wiki fan personalities to remain in good standing here? And exactly who are these people, anyway, with their "fingers on the pulse of fandom"? They don't have their fingers on MY pulse. You might as well have said that Merv has been excommunicated because a shadowy figure came to your doorway and slipped you a note after you left an X on your window. It really leaves an awful impression.

I don't really have time to debate this at length, but I think the way this decision was presented reflects very poorly on the wiki, because I find most of the things you have talked about to be not relevant. Think about somebody with no prior experience of this conflict reading what you just wrote, Joe. You have given this hypothetical newbie almost no actual clear and present reason to believe that The Merovingian is still the imperious dictator you say he is, and instead given him/her a major reason that is right in their face to believe exactly that about you and about the wiki.

I'm not asking that you reverse the decision. I don't know enough to say that. As I say, I have not been privy to what's been going on, which is why the paper-thinness of what is on this page is so glaringly obvious. But I hope that in the future any bannings of longtime members that are under consideration will be handled much more carefully and methodically than what I see here. It also would help if there were reference made to violations of an official policy on exactly what is bannable and what is not. Is being unpopular with other fans a bannable offence? You give a very strong impression here that it is.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 03:22, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

: What prompted the banning were the fact that, repeatedly, editors have tried to up and leave regarding his behavior -- behavior which is well documented on the message boards to which he participates as well as the wiki. It is not only pathetic that I have to keep on talking down contributors who have had issues with Merv, but it is also pathetic that people, like Shane (who isn't even an admin, for pete's sake), have to talk people out of doing such an act. Perhaps you didn't know this, as it wasn't common knowledge, but myself and the other administrators, such as Peter, have been endeavoring to help Merv soften his behavior. For a while, it seems he was improving in his behavior, until the complaints -- from people who hardly participate in message boards -- started rolling in ''again''.

: I'm not going to release names because they have come to me in confidence -- though I do hope that they have the courage to come forward, since I believe it would be cathartic for them. But Merv is directly responsible for us almost losing a very good member of this community 24 hours prior to making my decision.

: We have had issues with Merv for quite some time now, including the whole KR thing which, sad to say, almost damaged the wiki more than I've ever let on. This is detailed in his three Requests for Adminship, which I believe you may have read, as well as throughout the wiki. Feel free to do a search in our wiki, or even a Google search. (As I said, it's all out there for review.)

: Merv has also attempted to comport himself as taking ownership of the wiki on various occassions, despite our attempts to curtail such behavior by establishing [[Battlestar Wiki:Official Representation|our Official Representation policy]]. No one here, including myself (who shoulders the burden of financing, tech support, and being the one who tends to mediate issues here), dares take ownership of the wiki because it is a '''team effort'''. '''We are one''' here; everyone works together to build this reference. If there is someone who tries to use Battlestar Wiki as his personal pulpit, such as in the whole KR thing which is documented in [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Citation_Jihad/Archive02#Koenigrules_.2F_Hollywood_North_Report our archives here], then they will reap the consequences of doing such a thing from not only myself, but from the community.

: Fact of the matter is that I haven't included links due to the fact that his behavior outside the wiki and goals are so glaringly apparent that I believed such a thing was unnecessary; I now know why he was so insistant on [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=48191#RFA getting adminship here at the wiki as well], which was to solidfy a position to be some sort of prima donna information broker in the fandom. (This motivation doubtless lead to the near-disasterous incident with KR, which Peter should be thanked for mitigating.) I firmly believe that Merv never wanted the responsibility; he wanted the title, which is something that the cynical part of me has always suspected.

: To satisfy your curiousity regarding links and a dossier of his behavior on and off wiki, there are people who are working to create a compilation of all of Merv's replies and actions to date. A link to it, most likely in PDF format, will be uploaded to my website and linked here as an archive for all to see upon completion and review. I personally think such a thing is a waste of time, but I want everything out there because the truth will come out sooner or later, as it always does.

: Also, Merv's assertion that people such as Darth Marley have been mailbombing me with complaints is totally ludicrous and strikes me as an indicator of Merv's paranoia, as well as solidifies what I've found to be a characteristic of his personality: that he will take leaps of logic with pithy information and without thorough research. I have never corresponded with Marley or others (I've talked to Larocque, but that's because I respect him for all his work he's done with the original Battlestar Galactica FAQs and so forth); to continue, I've read what they've said on the boards and had I heeded them ''immediately'', this ban would have happened several months ago. Merv's popularity, or lack thereof, had no bearing on this decision -- it was his actions and his treatment of others both on and off wiki that came to a head. Call it the powder keg just waiting to be lit that Merv's actions (and consequences of his actions) have built up for months, if you will.

: There was no "ban Merv" caucus or calls from said non-existant caucus to ban Merv that lobbied me; Merv acted uncivily and nearly scared off new and even established contributors (that I know about, anyway), as a result, was banned indefinitely, until he wishes to act like a respectful human being and not the overbearing person he's projected himself to be.

: If Merv wants to be a part of a community, he can't act like the progeny of a prima donna and pitbull. Such progency and the goals of a productive community are mutually exclusive and have no place with one another.

: Humility. Integrity. Respect. Honesty. Collaboration. These are things that the wiki stands for and, quite frankly, Merv's actions do not fit in line with the philosophies of this wiki. And, needless to say, Merv is being watched very carefully [http://www.mortalstorm.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1012 now more than ever even from people who have better uses for their valuable time]. Think about that for a moment, or for as long as you need to... why would people waste their valuable time to watch him like a hawk?

: I think there is something very wrong with this picture, and it is something I have no desire to have this wiki be a part of. Hence my executive decision. Now I've said enough and have better things to accomplish... do excuse me. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:18, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::Thanks Joe for making such a concerted effort to explain yourself further. I think it helps make this page intelligible. It still bothers me somewhat that most of your complaints are from behaviour that is not clear & present but now ancient history as in it does make the timing seem somewhat arbitrary. If you were going to ban Merv over the KR incident then it should have been done long ago. To now name that incident as a major reason for his banning doesn't make much sense. The things you are saying about fresh altercations with new wiki members are very relevant but you seem to be not at liberty to discuss them further, which is unfortunate because that should be the meat of your case: it is that stuff that would be the most justifiable support for a move like this at this time, not the KR thing. Sometimes when you take a shotgun approach you damage your case, because it isn't clear to anyone exactly why all the stuff is a good reason now but wasn't a good reason then (is there is a timer that goes off six months after a bad act that results in a banning?). It invites speculation as to what is happening behind the scenes. Too bad you can't much talk about what I consider to be the only valid reasons you have named for taking a fresh look at Merv's membership status; knowing the history I'll take your word for it, but laying out this recent evidence would have been far preferable. I hope you know this and will consider how important that is in making this kind of announcement. The wiki is not in control of Merv's actions; but it is in control of its own actions, and the transparency and above-boardness with which you handle a banning speaks much more directly to the character of this place than anything done by one of its members.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 14:48, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree, Dogger - I feel that I must give Joe the benefit of the doubt on this matter, but we are at great risk of setting a bad precedent here. I eagerly anticipate a final report on the off-wiki behavior of Merv's which justified this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:07, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:Bad precedent, indeed. If I've read your arguments correctly, then generalized bad behavior AWAY from bsgwiki is considerable cause for banning ON bsgwiki. In light of this, I have a list of usernames I'd like to see banned for some serious bad behvaior on skiffy. Where would you like those names sent? What if I wanted to complain about Joe's "executive decision making" on this "community run board?" Who would I submit those anonymous, unrepeatable, and unspecified charges to? Just curious. Would it be possible for you "leaders" to post a really good list of offenses off-board that will get me banned here? I mean, I flipped off the guy who cut me off in traffic today. AND I made a really mean joke about Dualla on Skiffy sometime back and I REALLY upset a lot of people. Can I expect my login here to stop working? -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:01, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::If he wanted to be hated by the community in his own fashintion he can, but as soon as you link bad behaviour with the wiki using the wiki as a tool that's not correct. No ''one'' person speaks for the wiki, except Joe. I don't see any other users setting up camp on the SciFi Forums who speaks for the wikiw and then on top of that, "acts in bad faith" using the wiki as a tool. Name someone else who uses the wiki as a refernece on the SciFi forums in a bad manor. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:14, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
:::So, it was the incident from several months ago that prompted the banning (as opposed to recent, mysterious incidents) because he used battlestarwiki to paint a user in an extremely negative light. Not unlike, um, using the administrative banning function and associated talk pages to publicly humiliate a user with as broad coverage as possible. Oh, wait. Did I say that out loud? -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:31, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

== [[User:Shane|Shane]]'s Comments ==

While Merv might see this as a sudden "ban", I don't really think it was. Merv has been giving tons of opportunity to mend relationships with the community a dozen of times. A simple, "Thank you" or "I am sorry." or "I made a mistake. Please forgive it." would have gone a long way.

I realize now, after all this time, that [[User:Peter Farago]] deserved a sorry from me because of the two RFC's I filled against him in protest in defending Merv's actions. While I got one a while back when my first RFC was posted by Peter.

Merv, if you want to discuss the polices that you broke, all you need to do is look up all the pages in the Battlestar Wiki namespace. The admins gave you tons of chances and though maybe a mistake on their part for now being more tough on the rules, you should have been able to follow your own suggestions as you did when voting for the [[BW:OR]] policy, the first one in-fact. The [[BW:TANK]] was created so I had an avenue to get my ideas out and you know what.. it worked. the [[BW:OR]] was for you, you didn't know that, but you through it was a good idea after the KR incident.

You say you could not use the high complex templates? I was always willing to help, yet I never got a message saying something. I hope, that you can make peace with yourself, otherwise you will never be able to get along with people in real life. If you were so ambitious why you were blocked, do a search on your username in all the forums that you do. Re-read your posts. Look at where you might have said something that might have offended people. You said once that the Battlestar Wiki article that it was deleted and should not have been because it was just like Memory Alpha. Memory Alpha is a bit larger and it has a little bit more fame since it's been around. But did you ever check the AFD page? Joe, an admin of Wikipedia, voted to delete it. ([[State of the Wiki II]])

As for the wiki, drastic actions as in resorting to outside forums to further your cause also inside the wiki was not a good idea. When you first did it with me and the portals, I found info on two different forums. One was SciFi and the other was the GalacicaBS forums. Why am I being smeared to something that would have a positive effect on the wiki as a whole? Why?

Do you want to know why the person came to me? Because they didn't know if they could bring issues to Joe directly. It could have been the other way around and I could have been out-of-the loop up to the ban and still not what was going on. People came to be because I was fair and have always been fair. (Also since I have direct contact with Joe kinda helps, but that's a side factor). I don't know why you think it was the guys over a MS or Frackheads (?). Can't you think that it ''was'' someone who was part of the Wiki? And before you ask yourself, it was not me. Granted, I spend a ton of time here, and know what goes on, I know how people feel.

Anyway, you can contact me via email if you want. You know how.

P.S. Adminship does not grant one "ambasatorship".

P.S.S. If you can prove to the heart that you can be curtiousto others and show that you can repect over people for what they do and how they do it, you will never know if you will be allowed back here. Take this as a vacation as I did. Come back with a fresh view. It might be benifit to your understanding with Joe and the community. You can only prove it to yourself that you can be true to the guidelines of the site that you love.

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 14:56, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki talk:The Merovingian Ban

2006-09-02T03:01:06Z

AerynSun44:

<div class="messagebox"><h3>Please REMEMBER TO BE COURTEOUS and [[Wikipedia:WP:CIVIL|WP:CIVIL]] AS The Merovingian CAN NOT RESPOND. This is a remember to all parties adding comments to this page... myself included. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:00, 1 September 2006 (CDT)</h3></div>

It must have been a hard decision to take such a drastic action, but I'm sure that this move will only benefit the wiki in the future. --[[User:Ribsy|Ribsy]] 00:14, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
:I'm intrigued to know what's happened in the last few days for such a hard decision to be made. I was on vacation from the wiki all last week and I dont use Skiffy boards or other forums to know what happens off-wiki... --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] ([[User talk:Mercifull|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Mercifull|Contribs]]) 04:07, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
:I suspect the off-wiki behavior has just come to a head. But I'd not speculate further. We are what we are outside and inside the wiki. While Merv's face was improving here, it seems he began to claim the wiki as his own, and this isn't a place we can take ownership in. We can all take pride in adding our own contributions to form, together, one great resource for everyone, yes, but we can not take ownership to be point of being catty, rude or representing yourself as a wiki official without authorization. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:42, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
::It was not only that, but his general behavior to people off-wiki -- his behavior even prompted RDM's own wife, Terry, who posts on the SciFi.com boards as "Mrs Ron", to [http://mboard.scifi.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=BattlestarGalactica&Number=2056843&Searchpage=1&Main=2056837&Words=moron+The_Merovingian&topic=&Search=true#Post2056843 warn Merv about his's own behavior]. (In light of how she herself is painted as "a champion of [Merv's] bad behavior", I do not envy her current position as well, which apparently [http://www.mortalstorm.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1012 mirrors our own] in some ways.) What I do know through conversing with others who aren't contributors to the Wiki, but have their pulse on the fandom, is that he has damaged the wiki through his actions as he is associated with us. (He's made this association clear through a banner on the SciFi.com boards, a banner that I will ask be removed from his signature immediately.) I ''know'' that he's caused damage to the wiki; it's not like any of this is not out there on the boards and the like -- it is. I've tried to establsh damage control, hence the [[BW:OR|Official Representation]] policy, which, I will freely admit, is a direct response to Merv's previous actions. He has (almost) cost us a very good contributor in the process just within the ''last 48 hours'' and, in talking with others, I have determined that an RFC would have caused much, much more issues than the primary issue we were attempting to fix. I'll make it pretty clear that this decision was not a spur of the moment; I've thought about it intermittently for some time now, until I could put the pieces together all of the events that have transpired for the last six to eight months, without massive bias on either side of the issue. The sad thing is that it all adds up to a very nasty picture, which I refuse to have this wiki be a part of. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 17:35, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
I dont need to know about the reasons that leave to Merv´s banning ,hes childish behavior and arrogance are very well known arround the BSG fanbase.These action open the gate to our group of fans that avoided these place because we didnt want any involment to do with the Merovignian.
The FRAKHEADS! and the BSG-55 board will celebrate these desition and ad theyr contributions to the BSG wiki project.

Moctezuma.
BSG-55 FRAKHEADS! {{unsigned|Moctezuma}}--[[User:Moctezuma|Moctezuma]] 19:17, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

Dont worry about these site image on the contraire,the relevance of the content and the profesional structure are really amazing, im very pleased to read about a young profesional entrepenour like you and the TEAM that makes these site posible.--[[User:Moctezuma|Moctezuma]] 19:17, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
: Thank you for your kind words. I personally appreciate them. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 22:22, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

I don't understand what has prompted this move at this time, and there is nothing in your announcement, Joe, that really explains it. I have been clued out of the community for a few weeks now, and there may well have been some new incident that showed Merv not only to be unworthy of adminship, but unworthy of editing as well. But if there is, you haven't cited it. When I saw the title of this page I expected to see laid out for me a series of recent references to Merv's transgressions both here and off-site. I didn't get it. Why not? Banning people out of the blue for vaguely generalised past behaviour casts, IMO, an even worse impression on the wiki. Is it because he called somebody a moron in that thread? If it is, just say so. Why the hints and characterisations? Is the trigger that MrsRon spoke against him? I wouldn't call what she wrote a scathing indictment, just a mild voice of reason.

Judging from the arguments I have seen from people on this site in such matters, which have been generally very rational and of a high level, I find this announcement disappointing, more for the content of the announcement than the actual decision that was taken. It comes across as an emotional reaction -- something that I thought the wiki was above indulging. If you were going to ban somebody from editing, I would expect this to include a carefully cited set of examples of his behaviour, not a link to a single slur wrapped in several paragraphs of what basically boils down to 'People don't think he's cool and therefore they think the wiki isn't cool.' I suggest that in the future if you ban anyone from doing anything that you dispense entirely with all of the talk about wiki's reputation (which dominates your announcement and is not on point, i.e. it's not the relevant issue), and instead take a much more rational and carefully laid out approach that concentrates on examples (especially recent ones) of Merv's actual behaviour, because without that, there is no 'there' there. And that presents the appearance at least of having arbitrarily and without careful consideration (but merely out of a sense of fed-upness) chosen a side in what is ultimately a personality conflict in fandom, and chosen the side that will result in the least repercussions for the wiki. As in, maybe if you get rid of Merv the whole conflict will just go away? Okay, leave aside the fact that this doesn't seem to be an actual valid reason for banning anybody; more importantly, what happens to the next target chosen for unpopularity by your secret sources? Do we all have to curry favour now with certain off-wiki fan personalities to remain in good standing here? And exactly who are these people, anyway, with their "fingers on the pulse of fandom"? They don't have their fingers on MY pulse. You might as well have said that Merv has been excommunicated because a shadowy figure came to your doorway and slipped you a note after you left an X on your window. It really leaves an awful impression.

I don't really have time to debate this at length, but I think the way this decision was presented reflects very poorly on the wiki, because I find most of the things you have talked about to be not relevant. Think about somebody with no prior experience of this conflict reading what you just wrote, Joe. You have given this hypothetical newbie almost no actual clear and present reason to believe that The Merovingian is still the imperious dictator you say he is, and instead given him/her a major reason that is right in their face to believe exactly that about you and about the wiki.

I'm not asking that you reverse the decision. I don't know enough to say that. As I say, I have not been privy to what's been going on, which is why the paper-thinness of what is on this page is so glaringly obvious. But I hope that in the future any bannings of longtime members that are under consideration will be handled much more carefully and methodically than what I see here. It also would help if there were reference made to violations of an official policy on exactly what is bannable and what is not. Is being unpopular with other fans a bannable offence? You give a very strong impression here that it is.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 03:22, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

: What prompted the banning were the fact that, repeatedly, editors have tried to up and leave regarding his behavior -- behavior which is well documented on the message boards to which he participates as well as the wiki. It is not only pathetic that I have to keep on talking down contributors who have had issues with Merv, but it is also pathetic that people, like Shane (who isn't even an admin, for pete's sake), have to talk people out of doing such an act. Perhaps you didn't know this, as it wasn't common knowledge, but myself and the other administrators, such as Peter, have been endeavoring to help Merv soften his behavior. For a while, it seems he was improving in his behavior, until the complaints -- from people who hardly participate in message boards -- started rolling in ''again''.

: I'm not going to release names because they have come to me in confidence -- though I do hope that they have the courage to come forward, since I believe it would be cathartic for them. But Merv is directly responsible for us almost losing a very good member of this community 24 hours prior to making my decision.

: We have had issues with Merv for quite some time now, including the whole KR thing which, sad to say, almost damaged the wiki more than I've ever let on. This is detailed in his three Requests for Adminship, which I believe you may have read, as well as throughout the wiki. Feel free to do a search in our wiki, or even a Google search. (As I said, it's all out there for review.)

: Merv has also attempted to comport himself as taking ownership of the wiki on various occassions, despite our attempts to curtail such behavior by establishing [[Battlestar Wiki:Official Representation|our Official Representation policy]]. No one here, including myself (who shoulders the burden of financing, tech support, and being the one who tends to mediate issues here), dares take ownership of the wiki because it is a '''team effort'''. '''We are one''' here; everyone works together to build this reference. If there is someone who tries to use Battlestar Wiki as his personal pulpit, such as in the whole KR thing which is documented in [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Battlestar_Wiki_talk:Citation_Jihad/Archive02#Koenigrules_.2F_Hollywood_North_Report our archives here], then they will reap the consequences of doing such a thing from not only myself, but from the community.

: Fact of the matter is that I haven't included links due to the fact that his behavior outside the wiki and goals are so glaringly apparent that I believed such a thing was unnecessary; I now know why he was so insistant on [http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki?title=User_talk:Joe_Beaudoin_Jr.&oldid=48191#RFA getting adminship here at the wiki as well], which was to solidfy a position to be some sort of prima donna information broker in the fandom. (This motivation doubtless lead to the near-disasterous incident with KR, which Peter should be thanked for mitigating.) I firmly believe that Merv never wanted the responsibility; he wanted the title, which is something that the cynical part of me has always suspected.

: To satisfy your curiousity regarding links and a dossier of his behavior on and off wiki, there are people who are working to create a compilation of all of Merv's replies and actions to date. A link to it, most likely in PDF format, will be uploaded to my website and linked here as an archive for all to see upon completion and review. I personally think such a thing is a waste of time, but I want everything out there because the truth will come out sooner or later, as it always does.

: Also, Merv's assertion that people such as Darth Marley have been mailbombing me with complaints is totally ludicrous and strikes me as an indicator of Merv's paranoia, as well as solidifies what I've found to be a characteristic of his personality: that he will take leaps of logic with pithy information and without thorough research. I have never corresponded with Marley or others (I've talked to Larocque, but that's because I respect him for all his work he's done with the original Battlestar Galactica FAQs and so forth); to continue, I've read what they've said on the boards and had I heeded them ''immediately'', this ban would have happened several months ago. Merv's popularity, or lack thereof, had no bearing on this decision -- it was his actions and his treatment of others both on and off wiki that came to a head. Call it the powder keg just waiting to be lit that Merv's actions (and consequences of his actions) have built up for months, if you will.

: There was no "ban Merv" caucus or calls from said non-existant caucus to ban Merv that lobbied me; Merv acted uncivily and nearly scared off new and even established contributors (that I know about, anyway), as a result, was banned indefinitely, until he wishes to act like a respectful human being and not the overbearing person he's projected himself to be.

: If Merv wants to be a part of a community, he can't act like the progeny of a prima donna and pitbull. Such progency and the goals of a productive community are mutually exclusive and have no place with one another.

: Humility. Integrity. Respect. Honesty. Collaboration. These are things that the wiki stands for and, quite frankly, Merv's actions do not fit in line with the philosophies of this wiki. And, needless to say, Merv is being watched very carefully [http://www.mortalstorm.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1012 now more than ever even from people who have better uses for their valuable time]. Think about that for a moment, or for as long as you need to... why would people waste their valuable time to watch him like a hawk?

: I think there is something very wrong with this picture, and it is something I have no desire to have this wiki be a part of. Hence my executive decision. Now I've said enough and have better things to accomplish... do excuse me. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 09:18, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
::Thanks Joe for making such a concerted effort to explain yourself further. I think it helps make this page intelligible. It still bothers me somewhat that most of your complaints are from behaviour that is not clear & present but now ancient history as in it does make the timing seem somewhat arbitrary. If you were going to ban Merv over the KR incident then it should have been done long ago. To now name that incident as a major reason for his banning doesn't make much sense. The things you are saying about fresh altercations with new wiki members are very relevant but you seem to be not at liberty to discuss them further, which is unfortunate because that should be the meat of your case: it is that stuff that would be the most justifiable support for a move like this at this time, not the KR thing. Sometimes when you take a shotgun approach you damage your case, because it isn't clear to anyone exactly why all the stuff is a good reason now but wasn't a good reason then (is there is a timer that goes off six months after a bad act that results in a banning?). It invites speculation as to what is happening behind the scenes. Too bad you can't much talk about what I consider to be the only valid reasons you have named for taking a fresh look at Merv's membership status; knowing the history I'll take your word for it, but laying out this recent evidence would have been far preferable. I hope you know this and will consider how important that is in making this kind of announcement. The wiki is not in control of Merv's actions; but it is in control of its own actions, and the transparency and above-boardness with which you handle a banning speaks much more directly to the character of this place than anything done by one of its members.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 14:48, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree, Dogger - I feel that I must give Joe the benefit of the doubt on this matter, but we are at great risk of setting a bad precedent here. I eagerly anticipate a final report on the off-wiki behavior of Merv's which justified this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:07, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

:Bad precedent, indeed. If I've read your arguments correctly, then generalized bad behavior AWAY from bsgwiki is considerable cause for banning ON bsgwiki. In light of this, I have a list of usernames I'd like to see banned for some serious bad behvaior on skiffy. Where would you like those names sent? What if I wanted to complain about Joe's "executive decision making" on this "community run board?" Who would I submit those anonymous, unrepeatable, and unspecified charges to? Just curious. Would it be possible for you "leaders" to post a really good list of offenses off-board that will get me banned here? I mean, I flipped off the guy who cut me off in traffic today. AND I made a really mean joke about Dualla on Skiffy sometime back and I REALLY upset a lot of people. Can I expect my login here to stop working? -[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:01, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

== [[User:Shane|Shane]]'s Comments ==

While Merv might see this as a sudden "ban", I don't really think it was. Merv has been giving tons of opportunity to mend relationships with the community a dozen of times. A simple, "Thank you" or "I am sorry." or "I made a mistake. Please forgive it." would have gone a long way.

I realize now, after all this time, that [[User:Peter Farago]] deserved a sorry from me because of the two RFC's I filled against him in protest in defending Merv's actions. While I got one a while back when my first RFC was posted by Peter.

Merv, if you want to discuss the polices that you broke, all you need to do is look up all the pages in the Battlestar Wiki namespace. The admins gave you tons of chances and though maybe a mistake on their part for now being more tough on the rules, you should have been able to follow your own suggestions as you did when voting for the [[BW:OR]] policy, the first one in-fact. The [[BW:TANK]] was created so I had an avenue to get my ideas out and you know what.. it worked. the [[BW:OR]] was for you, you didn't know that, but you through it was a good idea after the KR incident.

You say you could not use the high complex templates? I was always willing to help, yet I never got a message saying something. I hope, that you can make peace with yourself, otherwise you will never be able to get along with people in real life. If you were so ambitious why you were blocked, do a search on your username in all the forums that you do. Re-read your posts. Look at where you might have said something that might have offended people. You said once that the Battlestar Wiki article that it was deleted and should not have been because it was just like Memory Alpha. Memory Alpha is a bit larger and it has a little bit more fame since it's been around. But did you ever check the AFD page? Joe, an admin of Wikipedia, voted to delete it. ([[State of the Wiki II]])

As for the wiki, drastic actions as in resorting to outside forums to further your cause also inside the wiki was not a good idea. When you first did it with me and the portals, I found info on two different forums. One was SciFi and the other was the GalacicaBS forums. Why am I being smeared to something that would have a positive effect on the wiki as a whole? Why?

Do you want to know why the person came to me? Because they didn't know if they could bring issues to Joe directly. It could have been the other way around and I could have been out-of-the loop up to the ban and still not what was going on. People came to be because I was fair and have always been fair. (Also since I have direct contact with Joe kinda helps, but that's a side factor). I don't know why you think it was the guys over a MS or Frackheads (?). Can't you think that it ''was'' someone who was part of the Wiki? And before you ask yourself, it was not me. Granted, I spend a ton of time here, and know what goes on, I know how people feel.

Anyway, you can contact me via email if you want. You know how.

P.S. Adminship does not grant one "ambasatorship".

P.S.S. If you can prove to the heart that you can be curtiousto others and show that you can repect over people for what they do and how they do it, you will never know if you will be allowed back here. Take this as a vacation as I did. Come back with a fresh view. It might be benifit to your understanding with Joe and the community. You can only prove it to yourself that you can be true to the guidelines of the site that you love.

--[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 14:56, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad

2006-04-21T22:15:45Z

AerynSun44: /* In favor of a policy against citing KR as a primary source */

== Citation Consistency ==

"Zoic" is a name that sounds like what Shaggy from "Scooby Doo" would make when surprised, I think.

Despite being the special effects company for the series, I wonder how much of their information still holds weight. I noticed that Peter gave neither negative or positive weight to this source. As we go through pages, two issues are going to crop up, of which one may need to move to the Standards page.

* Consistent and useful '''visual''' separation and identification of TOS and RDM information and characters. I find the mingling of TOS and RDM data in the same article confusing and lengthens an article unnecessarily. More germane to this project, it will also keep RDM and TOS stats from cohabitating and confusing the citation process.
* We need to cite official sources for TOS information on the project page, keeping in mind this wiki is for both series. There are surely more TOS fan sites than RDM, and things like games, fan fiction and the like over the years have surely diluted what is official and not.
* The level of detail or a standard of detail on technical pages needs some kind of governor. At which point is something being reasonable in description (such as ''Galactica's'' rail guns) or is embellishment or technobabble that just gives fan service (like "''Galactica'' uses a BFG-3244 Rail Gun with Strapless Attachment")? I'd be more strict on this info than any other since tech is tech and such "facts" should not be different from what is seen on screen.

I think color coding article titles to identify TOS and RDM pages (rather than using "TOS" and "RDM") may be better on the eye. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:05, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

:I intended Zoic to fall under point 3, for "crew" - ie, of roughly the same reliability as that interview where Lorena Gale talked about how Elosha used to do "a lot of drugs". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:21, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

::I believe the actual word is spelled thus: ZOIKS! Caps are not optional. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:21, 10 October 2005 (EDT)

==Request for name change==

I am uncomfortable with the use of the term "Jihad". I would rather we use the term "Crusade", or perhaps "Inquisition"; I think "Inquisition" is best (i.e. Spanish Inquisition [no one suspects the Inquisition!] b/c it's rooting out unsourced information). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 13 October, 2005

:Striving for accuracy certainly has better overtones than any use of "crusade", and "inquisition" has draconian connotations. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:11, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:: I, uh, don't get Peter's post. Does that means he agrees or doesn't? Anyway, I'm fine with Jihad because it implies a religeous devotion and a fanaticism that I think could be, sarcastically, applied to the purpose of this project. However, I'm also fine with Inquisition because it implies a religeous devotion and a fanaticism that I think... You can see where I'm going with this, no? Also, the Spanish Inquisition sketch is my favorite Monty Python sketch in the history of Monty Python's being viewed by me. And I'd love for my comments on changing citation errors (if I ever see any, because I'm bad at seeing them) to be "Our chief weapon is Fear. Fear and surprise. Our TWO chief weapons are fear, surprise and a fanatical devotion to citation. Ah. Our THREE chief weapons are: Fear, surprise, a--" You get the idea.

:: I find it interesting that the name and the two proposed substitutes are all tied to religeon? We could have a Citation Rampage. Or a Citation Mosh Pit. Heh. Maybe we should be the Ministry of Citation. I always liked ministries. We would then address each other as "Minister Day" and "Minister Farago", etc. Or maybe one of you can come up with a more [[Wikipedia:Nineteen Eighty-Four|Orwellian]] name. That would be cool. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:52, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::To clarify: I like Citation Jihad. I came up with it, after all... --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:08, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: "Jihad", in this context, does indeed present - shall we say - disconcerting ramifications for those of us who are not Christian. While humurous to most of us (I hate to splash cold water) the casual use of such a revered term amongst a potential audience of Islamic adherrants is a wee bit less than delicate... especially in light of the suspicion many perfectly native or naturalized citizens of Mid-Eastern descent faced immediately subsequent to 9/11... and the suspicion they currently face every time they reenter the U.S.
:::: While rather fascinating that we should find ourselves encountering a problem delt with in more artfull ways in our favorite television program, it is nevertheless significant (dare I say important) that we handle this question of naming with a sense of diplomacy. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 04:12, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::I was unsettled--albeit briefly--with the name initially, but I'm not into political correctness. "Jihad" is correct in definition. Currently, however, some take the word with the same emotional charge as Muslims would hear "Crusade," since, essentially in the context of past conflicts between Christians and Muslins at war, both signify a religious purge. In any case, the term sites a religious note that might sour some.

:::::But before you knock Peter for his choice, consider our subject matter: "Battlestar Galactica" is a morality play in the tradition of the original Star Trek series, which addresses in allegory the Muslim/Judeo-Christian issue present through current terrorism against the West as well as the Israel/Palestine conflict by using the Humano-Cylon/Human and God/Lords of Kobol issue. If nothing else, the use of the term "Jihad" in its purest form is actually appropriate and striking so for this Wiki. Don't let the Al Qaeda terrorists or other extremists make you afraid of a word when in fact, it is THEY that slur it from its true meaning. Peter has always shown a concise use of words that has little to no ambiguity--I should know since he frequently slices my edits to their essence when I use too many words. I'll back up Peter on this one. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:43, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::Taking these points into account, I would greatly prefer "Inquisition" over "Jihad" or "Crusade". -- Ricimer, October 14, 2005

:::::::Good point. And very nicely said I might add. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 13:10, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::: I hope you don't mind, Watcher, I indented your previous post one more. Anyway, I like Johad fine. I actually find it kind of refreshing to use it for something that's ''not'' violent. I'm not Muslim, so I can't speak to that. However, as an American I don't feel, I dunno, threatened by the name, or anything. When I first saw it, it gave me pause, but that pause was me thinking, "Whew. Someone's probably gonna throw a fit about that one." --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:13, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::::Well I'm sorry but I do and I have. What's the consensus on this? --Ricimer, October 13, 2005

::::::::::Not a problem Day. I think there might have been an unintentional slip during one of the edits (notice the time/date stamps) but I seem to constantly screw this detail up anyway. Feel free. I may read as insufferably serious but I assure you that's not the case. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 16:50, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::::::: Good deal, Watcher. Anyway... I was about to make a post about not wanting anyone to feel threatened by this project, but I find I have to revise that. I don't want ''members'' of the project to feel threatened by the name. I hope people who don't cite sources are scared witless of us. ;) Anyway, as much as I like using Jihad, I tend to like to not offend reasonable people, so I'd be okay with a change, I guess. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::::::: A note on nesting - if Watcher was replying to Spencerian, not Ricimer, it should be indented to the level of Spencerian's comment + 1, not Ricimer's + 1. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::::::::: Ah. Good to know. I shall endeavour to remember this. --[[User:Day|Day]] 22:47, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

===Votes===
We need to come to some kind of consensus, I think. So, first, is to change or not change. If we decide to change, then we can quibble over what to change to. Place your name under the appropriate heading.

====No Change====
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:14, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Not afraid of words when used properly. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:56, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Name doesn't bother me. [[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:46, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:51, 24 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Ditto Spencerian. Let's not fear words when used properly. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:28, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

====Change====
# Reluctantly --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 06:30, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Wholeheartedly --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 09:46, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Normally I don't care about words, but I have to admit, that in today's world, some words have become too negatively charged. --[[User:Cp.hayes|cp.hayes]] 14:30, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Wholeheartedly --[[User:Lone Odessan|Lone Odessan]] 19:36, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
== BSG: The Magazine ==

I saw [http://www.titanmagazines.com/titanmag/app;jsessionid=57DACB1E3C47F38A718593747C30F921?service=direct/1/HomeUS/$NavigationBar.$DirectLink$2&sp=S8 this] on the news stand at Fry's and thought it was worth picking up an issue to see what was in it. I've so far read a whole of two pages, so I don't know much about it, except that it has an article on Pyramid that was interesting. Does anyone else know anything about this magazine? How reliable is it? I'm going to edit the Pyramid article with some things that are revealed about the rules. How should I cite this, exactly? I'm gonna go with page numbers and title for now. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:24, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:Given that we haven't had much about the RDM show in print, I'd carefully use it to compare to the canonical stuff we have. If things are consistent, I'd say it's a reliable source since I strongly suspect that USA/Universal may have to sign off on its content. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:58, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
::I say we put it on level 4, (sci-fi and skyone websites), provisionally. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:41, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::: Correction. The title is ''Battlestar Galactica, the Official Magazine'' even thought the words are not in that order on the cover. And, I must say, the thing was really clumsily edited. There are missing periods, 'and' for 'a', 'their' for 'they're', tense mixing, Obvious typos. Yech. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:04, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

==Citation Format==
Also, we should choose a citation format and stick with it. Opinions? MLA, APA, Chicago? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:41, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:Damn it, Peter. I knew you were a student. You're going to force me to dig up a book or stand with the kids at the college bookstore, aren't you? :) [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:: Are you kidding? I just graduated and never once bought a book on citation. All that can be [http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/legacylib/mlahcc.html found] [http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/workshop/citmla.htm on] [[Wikipedia:APA style|the]] [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html net]. I've only ever used MLA style before, however, I'd be willing, given the nature of web pages, to use something that just had footnotes with numbering. There was some tool Wikipedia has for this that I read about, but I don't remember much about it except that it seemed cool. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:06, 14 October 2005 (EDT)
:::I would find MLA with numbered footnotes ideal. For "personal communication", we would do well to follow [[User:MASON|MASON]]'s example of including them in subpages, such as [[Mercury class battlestar/Sources]] (That should be linked to from the main article text, however.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:16, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Joe also mentioned possibly that we should scan things. What kinds of things? And, I assume those should go on a Sources page, too, neh? I think for whatever's on the sources page, we could do the foot note like this: (3) Personal communication (''or whatever relevant info''). See ''link to Sources page''. I also think Sources pages should have a link back. WHat do y'all think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:25, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::I Agree. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::By scans, I mean scans of publication articles and so forth. Scans should not be of the whole article but a snippet of the applicable text that was cited (enough to qualify as fair use). Also, as for linking the sources subpage, I created a template, {{tl|source}} that can be placed next to the applicable information. The template automatically links to the Source subpage. (Format: Article title/Sources.) Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:16, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::: How does that work, then, Joe? The syntax, I mean? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:29, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Character Ages==
Character ages across the site appear to be based on the age of the actors who play them. This would normally be reasonable, but the Timeline of BSG does not match the progress of time in the real world - the characters have aged at most three and a half months in the same time that their actors have aged two years. Since we can't infer ages more accurately than a casual visitor could be glancing at a character photograph, I would rather this information simply not be included. Opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:45, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

: I concur. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:57, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

: Another thought: Ages are hard to pin down... I mean, we might learn that it is someones XXth birthday in some future episode. Wonderful. However, it's somewhat meaningless. An "Age" attribute in the template needs to be "as of" some date. Right now we use the Holocost as that date, but we're no longer exactly certain how far ago that was. So, if it's Cally's, say, 25th or whatever birthday in the episode after next... how old was she at the Holocost? 24, or so, I guess, but you see my point? I think the best solution, and perhaps this should be brought up on the characters project page, too, is to make the "Age" attribute on the template hide-able and then blank everyone's age out unless we know explicitly a number. I also think we should say it thusly: Age: 23 (as of [[Scattered]]) --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:50, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

==Railguns==
From the ''Official Magazine'' issue #1, p. 60: "Every Battlestar class warship has 24 primary railgun turrets as well as over 500 point defense turrets at its disposal." I don't have access to a scanner to prove that it says that, so you'll have to take my word on it. I'm not saying this is indisputable proof, but that it's maybe more than fanon, anyway. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:The magazine is wrong. Based on on-screen evidence, the large turrets on ''Galactica'' cannot be [[railgun]]s unless we drastically redefine the very idea. This certainly trumps throwaway technobabble in a fan magazine. IMO, the only thing that should give us pause is if a character on the show specifically refers to them as railguns, which hasn't happened yet. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:51, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

:: Okay. I'll buy that. I bet that what's actually going on here is that someone somewhere who makes these desicions doesn't, actually, know what the heck they're talking about. I mean... What're we to do if someone busts out a ray gun and says, "This shoots a red lazer!" and then, *zap*, it's green? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:27, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

::: Oops. Ya did it now. Let's just hope TNS' writers don't become overwhelmed by the details and go the way of Space 1999. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 04:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Twelve Lords of Kobol==
Ricimer stated in his edit summary: "It has been stated numerous times that there are 12 Lords of Kobol".

This statement is true if by "numerous times" you mean "never". I've been over all the episode transcripts and found nothing. On this page, of all places, you should provide a source before deleting a comment. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:54, 11 November 2005 (EST)

==Magazine Content==
Ltcrashdown, thank you for your informative additions to [[Saul Tigh]] and other articles. However, for them to stand, we need to do two things:
#Make certain that we are ''not'' quoting the magazine word-for-word, or that where we feel compelled to do so, we set the text off and cite it directly.
#In general, any information from the magazine needs to be cited as well. To do this, we need to know some of the publication information, including:
#*The publication's name
#*The article's author
#*The article's title
#*Date and issue number
#*Pages referenced
Thanks for helping to keep Battlestar Wiki accurate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:50, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:Where do I place this information in the area where I quote it in Tigh's article? --Ltcrashdown 23:05, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::I will be happy to show you the proper format if you can provide the above information. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:15, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here is everything I referenced from the Magazine in the articles I altered. --Ltcrashdown 23:25, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:::Publication: Battlestar Gallactica the Official Magazine #3
:::Feb/Mar 2006
:::The Tigh info, Rising Star refence to Picon, and Battlestar Athena came from the article named 'Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh, Page 62'
:::The Alert Fighters and Colonial Day information came from the article named 'Cylon Intelligence Report: Galactica Glossary page 60'
:::The Colors for the Colonies comes from 'Encyclopedia Galactica pages 50-55'. I also compared it to information in Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion.
:::There were no authors listed for any of the articles.

::::Can you post quotes here containing the relevant details? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:29, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::::I am familiar with the magazine, and feel that we should *provisionally* allow information from the "encyclopedia" stuff at the end, but I also *suspect* that they make that stuff up without input from RDM. I don't know. It is the "Official" magazine. Should be on the same level as info from Scifi.com (which has been known to be wrong, etc.) HOWEVER, things that are straightfoward "interviews" which are a simple transcript of an interview; hard to argue that (like when actors reveal insights about their character based on stuff from the series bible we didn't know before). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::::Actually, I just saw that the magazine claims that Colonial Day is a biannual holiday; First, where would they get that idea? Second, Ron D. Moore ''stated'' in his blog that it is "not a biannual holiday; it's an annual holiday held every year". I wonder why someone got the idea to ask that. Etc. So it's now known to be not entirely accurate. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:40, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Okay, I'll try to post everything I found word-for-word. --Ltcrashdown 23:43, 1 February 2006 (EST)

'Colony: Aerelon' is a listing under the personnel file indicating his planet of origin.

Tigh's history specificaly says, 'Saul Tigh entered the fleet as a deckhand but rose through the ranks and was a CPO (Chief Petty Officer) by the time the First Cylon War broke out.' Ltaer it reads, 'Tigh joined the Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot, something he excelled in, earning a string of medals in his post aboard the Battlestar Athena.' This is the only refence to the Battlestar Athena.

Tigh's post-War history is given with 'Adama reenlisted with the service and Tigh spent two years drinking before Adama pulled strings to get him back into service. Saul Tigh was straightening his life out when he met his wife Ellen, who he courted and married within two months. Ellen did not take well to military life, and her repeated infidelities drove him back to drink. Ellen and Saul separated shortly before the Cylon attack.'

The Rising Star info was taken from later in teh article with the sentence, 'Three weeks after the Cylon attack Tigh's wife was discovered on the Rising Star, a carrier from Picon.'

The definitions are:
'Colonial Day - An biannual holiday which celebrates the signing of the Articles of Colonization.'
'Alert Fighters - A rotating group of Colonial Vipers which are constantly ready for immediate launch. Their function is to act as support for the Combat Air Patrol.

The colonial colors are just images, so there's nothing to type, but it corresponds with the same colors in the Official Battlestar Companion.

:Excellent, thank you.

:The MLA citation format for a magazine article with no author is as follows:

::"Title of Article." Title of Magazine. Date: Pages.

:So, to use the Saul Tigh article as an example:

::"Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh." Battlestar Galactica: The Official Magazine. Feb./Mar. 2006: 62.

:Introduce a footnote in the main body text using the <nowiki>{{note}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{note_label}}</nowiki> tags, and place the corresponding citation in a <nowiki>==Sources==</nowiki> header after <nowiki>#{{ref}}</nowiki> and/or <nowiki>{{ref_label}}</nowiki> as appropriate. I will restore your edits to the Saul Tigh article and cite them, to give you an idea. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 2 February 2006 (EST)

::You should also restore the 'Twelve Colonies' changes since all i did there was add Saul to the Aerelon natives and correctly match the Colors with their colonies. --Ltcrashdown 00:02, 2 February 2006 (EST)

::::Maybe he was busted down from CPO during the second year of the war. Or maybe as a Chief Petty Officer, he once served as a Gunner's Mate (though this is a bit of a stretch, I admit). --Ltcrashdown 00:22, 2 February 2006 (EST)

:::This information, however, is contradicted by the deleted scenes from "Valley of Darkness" where Tigh says that in the second year of the War, he was a "Petty Officer...gunner's mate" and not ''already'' a Chief Petty Officer when the war broke out.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:14, 2 February 2006 (EST)

:::::"Let's cut through it, shall we?" The magazine is obviously compiled by people who are worse fanboys than ''we'' are, and lack our zeal for accuracy. I mean, if they can't even spell "Gemenon" properly, I'm not really inclined to give them much credence. Their information should be taken with a very large grain of salt, when we take it at all. Frankly, I'm a little worried they're going to start using ''us'' as a source.

:::::(Dear lord, I'm using sci-fi quotes out of context and Ricimer's talking in a civil tone of voice. It's like we've ''merged''.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:30, 2 February 2006 (EST)

Realize that it my ''business'' to know (of course you know, etc etc). Enough Batman-villian-esque theatrics. ***I only have the first issue, and need to read the other issues. Frankly, it's a combination of *REEALLY* good and really *BAD* material. Basically, they've got 5 or so articles that are worthwhile; but they're exclusive, plus they also give out concept art unavailble elsewhere. Long story short, *I would pay money for the few good articles in it*, but the problem is they want to "pad out" the magazine to get a certain length (and I'm going, "I would pay the same amount of money if you didn't pad it, because the other stuff doesn't add much") I mean, the first one has this *really annoying* '''LITERALLY''' Fanfic letter "from Starbuck" describing an air-combat manuever she pulled off in a Viper (in an article about Vipers). Now, let me remind everyone: ***It's a good magazine and has many good articles. It's just that some of the articles are obviously "filler". Thus, as I said, apart from the flat-out Interviews with cast members or articles written by like David Eick, Garry Hurtzel, production team members, etc. should be held under great critical skepticism. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:45, 2 February 2006 (EST)

: This whole thread has been a great read. Very interesting. I have the first issue of this magazine. I sourced it for the [[Pyramid (RDM)]] article some. I remember thinking mostly as you do, Ricimer: Some great stuff, the rest ''horrid''. They're good for interviews, artwork and not much else. The first issue had an interesting thing at the end that seems to be a synopsis of an interview (if I remmeber right) with the head costume person, which I keep meaning to reread and use to add some real-life info to [[Uniform]]. I've also been looking for the other issues in the place where I got the first one, but I can't find it. I a little wary of subscribing to the thing... It just seems like there's a line being crossed there. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:06, 2 February 2006 (EST)

==To Do==
*Deprecate citation templates in favor of [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cite/Cite.php#_ref-NYT_1 <ref> tags]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:44, 2 February 2006 (EST)

==BSG Books==

There was recently a novelization for the battlestar galactica mini-series. I was going to get a copy and add information from it to the wikipedia. Does anyone else think this should be done, assuming the novelization yields any new details (i.e. ships, pilots, etc.) --Ltcrashdown 00:14, 4 February 2006 (EST)

: Its come up before. That's where, I think, we got the name Natasi for one of [[Number Six]]'s copies. We're kind of wary of it, but I think there's further discussion on Six's Talk page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:51, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::I'm going to post my point by point analysis of it in a matter of hours. It is, on the whole, quite poorly written, and I don't think he had any official stuff to go on, just making it up. Regardless, per "Memory Alpha" template, it deserves it's own page which I will comment more on, but we should not base beliefs on it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:57, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Sources namespace ==

Just to let everyone know, Sources have their own namespace (i.e. [[Sources:Pegasus (RDM)]]). This avoids having to use the subpage suggestion I had earlier proposed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 13:11, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

==Koenigrules / Hollywood North Report==
"Koenigrules" (KR) is the alias of a popular reporter of BSG spoilers, whose reports are often cited and reposted by other sources. [http://lvpodcasts.autopodcaster.com/download.php?filename=Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3/Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3 Recent comments] made on the "[http://www.subject2discussion.com/ Subject 2 Discussion]" segment of the "[http://www.lvrocks.com/ LV Rocks]" radio program (transcribed at [[Sources:Precipice]]) raised the possibility that KR is merely re-reporting publically available information, and does not appear to be a credible primary source.

[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] investigated this possibility, and posted his findings to [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]]. [[User:Peter Farago|I]] raised the possibility of instating a policy against citing KR's reports as credible sources on Battlestar Wiki, which was seconded by [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]].

Consequently, I am opening a formal vote here on the matter. Please review [[Sources:Precipice]], its putative [http://www.nowcasting.com/sides/Episodic/BATTLESTAR%20GALACTICA/301%20Occupation/Selloi_Dedona_4pgs.pdf source material], and The Merovingian's comments on [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]] prior to casting your vote, and feel free to raise any questions below. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:18, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Vote ends 20:34, 26 April 2006, server time.'''

===In favor of a policy against citing KR as a primary source===
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:34, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:36, 19 April 2006 (CDT) - I feel like this guy betrayed us. And it's getting worse; 4-5 news sites report things he says as fact; he is not helping at all.
#[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 01:09, 20 April 2006 (CDT) I think he just read the infromation we had posted. That interview was almost excatly what we have on the site. lol. Vote to against citing KR.
#[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:11, 20 April 2006 (CDT) If he originates nothing, we lose nothing by not citing him.
#[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:34, 20 April 2006 (CDT) - We do NOT claim to be a primary source here, and everything that is stated as fact should be citable elsewhere. Our sources are therefore our foundation, so they should be held to a high standard.
#[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:53, 20 April 2006 (CDT) Per above.
#[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:30, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:21, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:16, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I'm against the publication of anything except the facts.
#[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:35, 21 April 2006 (CDT) Ditto to all above
# [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 17:12, 21 April 2006 (CDT) This is site is a reference, it would be misleading to publish anything other than citable information.
#[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 17:15, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I must concur. Too much flotsam.

===Opposed===

Talk:Karl Agathon/Archive 1

2006-04-20T03:20:08Z

AerynSun44: /* Another meaning behind Agathon */

Has anyone else ever wondered why Sharon never calls Helo "Karl"? It seems to me like an emotional detatchement in her that nobody is recognizing (the characters) [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 19:33, October 17, 2005 (EDT)

:Galactica-Boomer always called Tyrol "Chief", never "Galen". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:22, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

::RDM explained this in the blog: we've never heard Tyrol called Galen out loud before this episode, "I am Galen Tyrol! My father was a priest!...", etc. Only people who read the blog would know his name; casual viewers would not. He said it would have sounded odd and ruined the dramatic moment, and I'm inclined to agree. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:55, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

::See, what I'd say to that is that on the Galactica, Sharon and Tyrol were trying to maintain a modicum of professional detachment, at least publicly. It was probably helpful to be in the practice of calling him "Chief" so something else didn't slip out in public (first name). But with Helo, I don't see any reasons why she should see a barrier to familiarity. Heck, she's carrying his child. [[User:Rocky8311|Rocky8311]] 21:50, October 17, 2005 (EDT)

:::On ''Galactica'', pilots tend to call each other their callsigns more than their real names. "Helo" *is* is his name to them. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:56, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

::: Well, some people don't like being called by their first names. For instance, [[Wikipedia:Angus MacGyver|Angus MacGyver]] goes by "Mac" or "MacGyver", never by "Angus". Although on ''Galactica'' pilots do tend to be called by their callsigns. (Hence the term, "callsign", me thinks.)-- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 22:02, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: I agree with Ricimer. No one here calls me Ben. Even people I've known for years online who know my real name still call me Day. That's my ''name'' in this context. Similarly, Helo is Karl Agathon's name within the fraternity of pilots. This is probably Sharon (subconsciously?) signalling that she still wants to be part of that fraternity and Karl (also subconsciously?), by accepting that she calls him that, signaling that he thinks she should be allowed in, too.

:::: I guess, though, it doesn't need to work like that. Maybe it's significant that Sharon calls Karl "Helo" but he calls her "Sharon", signaling that she's not, really, a pilot. It would be interesting to see if Lee or Kara asked/told Sharon not to call them Apollo and Starbuck and/or if they seem to be making a point of never calling her Boomer. --[[User:Day|Day]] 23:55, 27 December 2005 (EST)

== Another meaning behind Agathon ==

[[wikipedia:Agathon|Agathon]] was also the name of a ancient Greek poet.--[[User:Kross|Kross]] 14:59, 14 March 2006 (CST)

:I consulted my trusty "Character Naming Sourcebook" and while it does not have an "Agathon" it does have "Agaton" which means "Pure." -- [[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 22:20, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

== Regarding Raptor Analogies ==

'...I never really thought of the Raptor as a transport, I usually thought of it as analogous to the Navy's EA-6 Prowler (a variant of the A-6 Intruder popularized in "Flight of the Intruder")' -RDM at http://blog.scifi.com/battlestar/ (current entry, dated April 18th) --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 20:29, 19 April 2006 (CDT)
:The part that will blow your mind is that *I* asked that question in the blog thread (about Starship Troopers) naught but 2 days ago (there is little rhyme or reason to how Ron pics questions for the blog from the message thread, but he tends to pic the most recent....which is why every 2-3 months I repost the 30 or so pretty good questions which have yet to be answered in one long list. Hey, it beats that idiot who wondered if the Cylons somehow injected Caprica-Sharon full of human egg cells (Ron answered that....but I think only in disgust that someone thought something so wacky). --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:47, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Fan fiction/Golden Toaster Awards/Archive 1

2006-04-07T20:51:40Z

AerynSun44: /* A concern */

I don't remember what "lifetime achievement awards" like the TOSer, Solium, and GINO stood for. I have to ask the guy in charge: the actual website (GalacticaActual) where the event was held has been destroyed, apparently, so I also no longer know exactly who the nominees were, but I can check for the meaning of these awards. I do, however, have an accurate list of the winners.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:13, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:I like this. =) --[[User:Drumstick|Drumstick]] 17:23, 29 January 2006 (EST)

==Silly Pages==
If these are real, then this page doesn't actually belong in the Silly Pages category. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:48, 29 January 2006 (EST)

:Well....then what category would apply?--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 17:52, 29 January 2006 (EST)
::I'm not sure if we have one for fandom topics. Do we have other pages that would be included in such a category? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:54, 29 January 2006 (EST)

== A concern ==

I'm just a bit concerned about this article, given that it isn't an actual award ceremony. Perhaps this article would be better left in the user space (i.e. [[User:Username/Golden Toaster Awards]]) rather than in the article namespace. Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:21, 24 March 2006 (CST)

No. Ron Moore & Co. ''know'' about this thing and we're starting up the Second Awards; we just started this week, and our placeholder [http://goldentoasterawards.hangardeck5.com/ website for the 2nd awards is up here]. More news to follow. Please leave it as it is for now. Plus, quite possibly the entire online community is involved and it really ''is'' an "awards show", just one held online.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:28, 24 March 2006 (CST)

:I don't mind having fandom topics discussed here, as long as there's no ambiguity between what's canonical and what's fan-related - and this article is pretty clear. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:30, 24 March 2006 (CST)
::Even if they know it, it doesn't mean everyone excepted it. I think it should not be in the article database. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 17:26, 24 March 2006 (CST)
::: Perhaps some kind of template for the header, much like the current neutrality one, but specifically for fan related articles. --[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 11:06, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
::::Not a bad idea there: casual users don't always notice the categories on the ''bottom'' of an article; having a tag in "nice big shiny letters" (haha) having another tag that says something's related to the fanbase would be okay. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:01, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::There is no reason for anyone on the show not to accept fan awards, and every cast member who has been told about it has been gracious and grateful, naturally. I don't see any reason to exclude this. It is a fact that these ceremonies take place with a lot of fan participation and it is a fact that these awards are given, and it is a fact that the cast and crew are notified where possible, and respond. At Galactica Actual they posted few responses from the recipients and I'm sure that this will happen again. If there is some reason why this one of the most formal interactions between the fans and the cast/crew should be treated as if it is a matter of opinion or it never happened, I can't imagine what that reason might be.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 14:25, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
::::I agree with Dogger. These awards were a pretty big deal last year, with a lot of participation from across fandom and some wonderful validation from the cast and crew. They may not be some industry-sanctioned award, but they are well-organized and well-taken by the creators of the show. And, as a newbie around here, I'd prefer the article stay somewhere obvious, where I can find it. I can't possibly be the only one... -- [[User:Sabaceanbabe|Sabaceanbabe]] 15:05, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::You may call me a dreamer, but I am not the only one...--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:09, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Based on what MrsRon has told us, these awards are as real to RDM as any other award so I think that presenting the information in article format is appropriate. --[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 15:51, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

User talk:AerynSun44

2006-04-02T19:26:32Z

AerynSun44: /* Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! */

== Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! ==

Welcome to the Wiki, AerynSun44, Mrs.Ron's personal Hall Monitor! :) Good to see more people from the official site here. Feel free to tell us about yourself on [[User:AerynSun44|your user page]]. Before you get started on other edits, please read the [[Battlestar Wiki:Standards and Conventions]], which details the policies we use in editing pages (this differs from many other wikis in consistent use of phrasing, abbreviations, format, and the like).

Also, if you have any questions or suggestions you wish to offer, please feel free to do so either on your user talk page, the [[Battlestar Wiki:Wikipedian Quorum|Wikipedian Quorum]] or [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Administrators' noticeboard]]. Remember to sign your posts on any talk pages using four tildes (~~~~)! --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:00, 1 April 2006 (CST)

Would you like me to set up a character-bio box for you on your User page? (to display your Hall Monitor status, etc.)?--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 13:32, 2 April 2006 (CDT)

:Oh, would you? That would be fantastic. [[User:AerynSun44|AeynSun44]]

:Merovingian, thanks for the jump start. --[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 14:26, 2 April 2006 (CDT)

User:AerynSun44

2006-04-02T19:25:11Z

AerynSun44:

{{Character Data|
|photo= http://thescreethatfalls.com/images/justStarbuck.gif
|age=
|colony=Aerelon
|birthname=
|callsign=AerynSun44
|death= Still alive and kicking
|parents=
|siblings=
|marital status=Blissfully Wed
|children=
|role=
|rank= Mrs. Ron's official '''Hall Monitor''', Scifi.com messageboard
|actor=
|cylon=
|name=
}}

'''Desperate times call for desperate measures.'''

User:AerynSun44

2006-04-02T19:21:50Z

AerynSun44:

{{Character Data|
|photo= http://thescreethatfalls.com/images/justStarbuck.gif
|age=
|colony=Aerelon
|birthname= Starbuck
|callsign=AerynSun44
|death= Still alive and kicking
|parents=
|siblings=
|marital status=Blissfully Wed
|children=
|role=
|rank= Mrs. Ron's official '''Hall Monitor''', Scifi.com messageboard
|actor=
|cylon=
|name=
}}

'''Desperate times call for desperate measures.'''

User:AerynSun44

2006-04-02T18:58:33Z

AerynSun44:

{{Character Data|
|photo= http://thescreethatfalls.com/images/justStarbuck.gif
|age= Unknown
|colony=Aerelon
|birthname= Starbuck
|callsign=AerynSun44
|death= Still alive and kicking
|parents=Unknown
|siblings=Unknown
|marital status=Unknown
|children=Unknown
|role=Unknown
|rank= Mrs. Ron's official '''Hall Monitor''', Scifi.com messageboard
|actor= Unknown
|cylon=
|name=
}}

'''Desperate times call for desperate measures.'''

User talk:AerynSun44

2006-04-02T18:38:21Z

AerynSun44: /* Welcome to Battlestar Wiki! */

User talk:UncleMikey

2006-04-02T18:21:08Z

AerynSun44: /* The Great Questions Section Attack... */

Nobody talks about me :-)

: Not on your talk page anyway. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 18:01, 22 March 2006 (CST)

:: Aigh!! Conspiracy! Paranoia! They're all out to get me!
:: Wait...there's nothing new about that. Never mind :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 18:13, 22 March 2006 (CST)
::: Umm... maybe Mikey was the one who talked with 6 on the planet right before it was nuked.. Never thought about that before. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:16, 22 March 2006 (CST)
:::: I deny everything. I have an alibi. I was hangin' with my buddy Aaron D. at the time...oh...wait...--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 15:31, 23 March 2006 (CST)
::::: I have recieved footage from a [[D'anna Biers|trusted source in the media]] that says otherwise [[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 15:37, 23 March 2006 (CST)
:::::: ROFL! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 18:49, 23 March 2006 (CST)

== The Great Questions Section Attack... ==

...will resume shortly. My attention has been elsewhere this last week or so. :-) --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 11:52, 2 April 2006 (CDT)

:As has mine. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:54, 2 April 2006 (CDT)

::Clueless new girl can't help but wonder what a "Great Questions Section Attack" might entail. Sounds painful. --[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]]

User:AerynSun44

2006-04-02T04:19:49Z

AerynSun44:

'''Desperate times call for desperate measures.'''