Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Quotes:09 30

2006-09-07T16:53:42Z

Adedward:

"Get your men ready, or I will find someone who can!" 
--Admiral [[William Adama]] to Commander [[Lee Adama]] (''[[Season 3]] Teaser'')

Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad

2006-04-29T04:21:08Z

Adedward: /* Opposed */

== Citation Consistency ==

"Zoic" is a name that sounds like what Shaggy from "Scooby Doo" would make when surprised, I think.

Despite being the special effects company for the series, I wonder how much of their information still holds weight. I noticed that Peter gave neither negative or positive weight to this source. As we go through pages, two issues are going to crop up, of which one may need to move to the Standards page.

* Consistent and useful '''visual''' separation and identification of TOS and RDM information and characters. I find the mingling of TOS and RDM data in the same article confusing and lengthens an article unnecessarily. More germane to this project, it will also keep RDM and TOS stats from cohabitating and confusing the citation process.
* We need to cite official sources for TOS information on the project page, keeping in mind this wiki is for both series. There are surely more TOS fan sites than RDM, and things like games, fan fiction and the like over the years have surely diluted what is official and not.
* The level of detail or a standard of detail on technical pages needs some kind of governor. At which point is something being reasonable in description (such as ''Galactica's'' rail guns) or is embellishment or technobabble that just gives fan service (like "''Galactica'' uses a BFG-3244 Rail Gun with Strapless Attachment")? I'd be more strict on this info than any other since tech is tech and such "facts" should not be different from what is seen on screen.

I think color coding article titles to identify TOS and RDM pages (rather than using "TOS" and "RDM") may be better on the eye. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:05, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

:I intended Zoic to fall under point 3, for "crew" - ie, of roughly the same reliability as that interview where Lorena Gale talked about how Elosha used to do "a lot of drugs". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:21, 29 September 2005 (EDT)

::I believe the actual word is spelled thus: ZOIKS! Caps are not optional. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:21, 10 October 2005 (EDT)

==Request for name change==

I am uncomfortable with the use of the term "Jihad". I would rather we use the term "Crusade", or perhaps "Inquisition"; I think "Inquisition" is best (i.e. Spanish Inquisition [no one suspects the Inquisition!] b/c it's rooting out unsourced information). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 13 October, 2005

:Striving for accuracy certainly has better overtones than any use of "crusade", and "inquisition" has draconian connotations. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:11, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:: I, uh, don't get Peter's post. Does that means he agrees or doesn't? Anyway, I'm fine with Jihad because it implies a religeous devotion and a fanaticism that I think could be, sarcastically, applied to the purpose of this project. However, I'm also fine with Inquisition because it implies a religeous devotion and a fanaticism that I think... You can see where I'm going with this, no? Also, the Spanish Inquisition sketch is my favorite Monty Python sketch in the history of Monty Python's being viewed by me. And I'd love for my comments on changing citation errors (if I ever see any, because I'm bad at seeing them) to be "Our chief weapon is Fear. Fear and surprise. Our TWO chief weapons are fear, surprise and a fanatical devotion to citation. Ah. Our THREE chief weapons are: Fear, surprise, a--" You get the idea.

:: I find it interesting that the name and the two proposed substitutes are all tied to religeon? We could have a Citation Rampage. Or a Citation Mosh Pit. Heh. Maybe we should be the Ministry of Citation. I always liked ministries. We would then address each other as "Minister Day" and "Minister Farago", etc. Or maybe one of you can come up with a more [[Wikipedia:Nineteen Eighty-Four|Orwellian]] name. That would be cool. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:52, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::To clarify: I like Citation Jihad. I came up with it, after all... --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:08, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: "Jihad", in this context, does indeed present - shall we say - disconcerting ramifications for those of us who are not Christian. While humurous to most of us (I hate to splash cold water) the casual use of such a revered term amongst a potential audience of Islamic adherrants is a wee bit less than delicate... especially in light of the suspicion many perfectly native or naturalized citizens of Mid-Eastern descent faced immediately subsequent to 9/11... and the suspicion they currently face every time they reenter the U.S.
:::: While rather fascinating that we should find ourselves encountering a problem delt with in more artfull ways in our favorite television program, it is nevertheless significant (dare I say important) that we handle this question of naming with a sense of diplomacy. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 04:12, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::I was unsettled--albeit briefly--with the name initially, but I'm not into political correctness. "Jihad" is correct in definition. Currently, however, some take the word with the same emotional charge as Muslims would hear "Crusade," since, essentially in the context of past conflicts between Christians and Muslins at war, both signify a religious purge. In any case, the term sites a religious note that might sour some.

:::::But before you knock Peter for his choice, consider our subject matter: "Battlestar Galactica" is a morality play in the tradition of the original Star Trek series, which addresses in allegory the Muslim/Judeo-Christian issue present through current terrorism against the West as well as the Israel/Palestine conflict by using the Humano-Cylon/Human and God/Lords of Kobol issue. If nothing else, the use of the term "Jihad" in its purest form is actually appropriate and striking so for this Wiki. Don't let the Al Qaeda terrorists or other extremists make you afraid of a word when in fact, it is THEY that slur it from its true meaning. Peter has always shown a concise use of words that has little to no ambiguity--I should know since he frequently slices my edits to their essence when I use too many words. I'll back up Peter on this one. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:43, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::Taking these points into account, I would greatly prefer "Inquisition" over "Jihad" or "Crusade". -- Ricimer, October 14, 2005

:::::::Good point. And very nicely said I might add. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 13:10, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::: I hope you don't mind, Watcher, I indented your previous post one more. Anyway, I like Johad fine. I actually find it kind of refreshing to use it for something that's ''not'' violent. I'm not Muslim, so I can't speak to that. However, as an American I don't feel, I dunno, threatened by the name, or anything. When I first saw it, it gave me pause, but that pause was me thinking, "Whew. Someone's probably gonna throw a fit about that one." --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:13, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::::Well I'm sorry but I do and I have. What's the consensus on this? --Ricimer, October 13, 2005

::::::::::Not a problem Day. I think there might have been an unintentional slip during one of the edits (notice the time/date stamps) but I seem to constantly screw this detail up anyway. Feel free. I may read as insufferably serious but I assure you that's not the case. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 16:50, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::::::: Good deal, Watcher. Anyway... I was about to make a post about not wanting anyone to feel threatened by this project, but I find I have to revise that. I don't want ''members'' of the project to feel threatened by the name. I hope people who don't cite sources are scared witless of us. ;) Anyway, as much as I like using Jihad, I tend to like to not offend reasonable people, so I'd be okay with a change, I guess. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:21, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::::::::: A note on nesting - if Watcher was replying to Spencerian, not Ricimer, it should be indented to the level of Spencerian's comment + 1, not Ricimer's + 1. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::::::::::::: Ah. Good to know. I shall endeavour to remember this. --[[User:Day|Day]] 22:47, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

===Votes===
We need to come to some kind of consensus, I think. So, first, is to change or not change. If we decide to change, then we can quibble over what to change to. Place your name under the appropriate heading.

====No Change====
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:14, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Not afraid of words when used properly. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:56, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Name doesn't bother me. [[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:46, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:51, 24 October 2005 (EDT)
# --Ditto Spencerian. Let's not fear words when used properly. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:28, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

====Change====
# Reluctantly --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 06:30, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Wholeheartedly --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 09:46, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Normally I don't care about words, but I have to admit, that in today's world, some words have become too negatively charged. --[[User:Cp.hayes|cp.hayes]] 14:30, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
# Wholeheartedly --[[User:Lone Odessan|Lone Odessan]] 19:36, 23 October 2005 (EDT)
== BSG: The Magazine ==

I saw [http://www.titanmagazines.com/titanmag/app;jsessionid=57DACB1E3C47F38A718593747C30F921?service=direct/1/HomeUS/$NavigationBar.$DirectLink$2&sp=S8 this] on the news stand at Fry's and thought it was worth picking up an issue to see what was in it. I've so far read a whole of two pages, so I don't know much about it, except that it has an article on Pyramid that was interesting. Does anyone else know anything about this magazine? How reliable is it? I'm going to edit the Pyramid article with some things that are revealed about the rules. How should I cite this, exactly? I'm gonna go with page numbers and title for now. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:24, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:Given that we haven't had much about the RDM show in print, I'd carefully use it to compare to the canonical stuff we have. If things are consistent, I'd say it's a reliable source since I strongly suspect that USA/Universal may have to sign off on its content. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:58, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
::I say we put it on level 4, (sci-fi and skyone websites), provisionally. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:41, 13 October 2005 (EDT)

::: Correction. The title is ''Battlestar Galactica, the Official Magazine'' even thought the words are not in that order on the cover. And, I must say, the thing was really clumsily edited. There are missing periods, 'and' for 'a', 'their' for 'they're', tense mixing, Obvious typos. Yech. --[[User:Day|Day]] 01:04, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

==Citation Format==
Also, we should choose a citation format and stick with it. Opinions? MLA, APA, Chicago? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:41, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:Damn it, Peter. I knew you were a student. You're going to force me to dig up a book or stand with the kids at the college bookstore, aren't you? :) [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 22:50, 13 October 2005 (EDT)
:: Are you kidding? I just graduated and never once bought a book on citation. All that can be [http://honolulu.hawaii.edu/legacylib/mlahcc.html found] [http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/workshop/citmla.htm on] [[Wikipedia:APA style|the]] [http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/research/r_mla.html net]. I've only ever used MLA style before, however, I'd be willing, given the nature of web pages, to use something that just had footnotes with numbering. There was some tool Wikipedia has for this that I read about, but I don't remember much about it except that it seemed cool. --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:06, 14 October 2005 (EDT)
:::I would find MLA with numbered footnotes ideal. For "personal communication", we would do well to follow [[User:MASON|MASON]]'s example of including them in subpages, such as [[Mercury class battlestar/Sources]] (That should be linked to from the main article text, however.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:16, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::: Joe also mentioned possibly that we should scan things. What kinds of things? And, I assume those should go on a Sources page, too, neh? I think for whatever's on the sources page, we could do the foot note like this: (3) Personal communication (''or whatever relevant info''). See ''link to Sources page''. I also think Sources pages should have a link back. WHat do y'all think? --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:25, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::I Agree. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:14, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::By scans, I mean scans of publication articles and so forth. Scans should not be of the whole article but a snippet of the applicable text that was cited (enough to qualify as fair use). Also, as for linking the sources subpage, I created a template, {{tl|source}} that can be placed next to the applicable information. The template automatically links to the Source subpage. (Format: Article title/Sources.) Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:16, 14 October 2005 (EDT)

:::::: How does that work, then, Joe? The syntax, I mean? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:29, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Character Ages==
Character ages across the site appear to be based on the age of the actors who play them. This would normally be reasonable, but the Timeline of BSG does not match the progress of time in the real world - the characters have aged at most three and a half months in the same time that their actors have aged two years. Since we can't infer ages more accurately than a casual visitor could be glancing at a character photograph, I would rather this information simply not be included. Opinions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:45, 15 October 2005 (EDT)

: I concur. --[[User:Day|Day]] 12:57, 17 October 2005 (EDT)

: Another thought: Ages are hard to pin down... I mean, we might learn that it is someones XXth birthday in some future episode. Wonderful. However, it's somewhat meaningless. An "Age" attribute in the template needs to be "as of" some date. Right now we use the Holocost as that date, but we're no longer exactly certain how far ago that was. So, if it's Cally's, say, 25th or whatever birthday in the episode after next... how old was she at the Holocost? 24, or so, I guess, but you see my point? I think the best solution, and perhaps this should be brought up on the characters project page, too, is to make the "Age" attribute on the template hide-able and then blank everyone's age out unless we know explicitly a number. I also think we should say it thusly: Age: 23 (as of [[Scattered]]) --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:50, 27 October 2005 (EDT)

==Railguns==
From the ''Official Magazine'' issue #1, p. 60: "Every Battlestar class warship has 24 primary railgun turrets as well as over 500 point defense turrets at its disposal." I don't have access to a scanner to prove that it says that, so you'll have to take my word on it. I'm not saying this is indisputable proof, but that it's maybe more than fanon, anyway. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:The magazine is wrong. Based on on-screen evidence, the large turrets on ''Galactica'' cannot be [[railgun]]s unless we drastically redefine the very idea. This certainly trumps throwaway technobabble in a fan magazine. IMO, the only thing that should give us pause is if a character on the show specifically refers to them as railguns, which hasn't happened yet. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:51, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

:: Okay. I'll buy that. I bet that what's actually going on here is that someone somewhere who makes these desicions doesn't, actually, know what the heck they're talking about. I mean... What're we to do if someone busts out a ray gun and says, "This shoots a red lazer!" and then, *zap*, it's green? --[[User:Day|Day]] 03:27, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

::: Oops. Ya did it now. Let's just hope TNS' writers don't become overwhelmed by the details and go the way of Space 1999. --[[User:Watcher|Watcher]] 04:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Twelve Lords of Kobol==
Ricimer stated in his edit summary: "It has been stated numerous times that there are 12 Lords of Kobol".

This statement is true if by "numerous times" you mean "never". I've been over all the episode transcripts and found nothing. On this page, of all places, you should provide a source before deleting a comment. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:54, 11 November 2005 (EST)

==Magazine Content==
Ltcrashdown, thank you for your informative additions to [[Saul Tigh]] and other articles. However, for them to stand, we need to do two things:
#Make certain that we are ''not'' quoting the magazine word-for-word, or that where we feel compelled to do so, we set the text off and cite it directly.
#In general, any information from the magazine needs to be cited as well. To do this, we need to know some of the publication information, including:
#*The publication's name
#*The article's author
#*The article's title
#*Date and issue number
#*Pages referenced
Thanks for helping to keep Battlestar Wiki accurate. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:50, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:Where do I place this information in the area where I quote it in Tigh's article? --Ltcrashdown 23:05, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::I will be happy to show you the proper format if you can provide the above information. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:15, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::Here is everything I referenced from the Magazine in the articles I altered. --Ltcrashdown 23:25, 1 February 2006 (EST)
:::Publication: Battlestar Gallactica the Official Magazine #3
:::Feb/Mar 2006
:::The Tigh info, Rising Star refence to Picon, and Battlestar Athena came from the article named 'Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh, Page 62'
:::The Alert Fighters and Colonial Day information came from the article named 'Cylon Intelligence Report: Galactica Glossary page 60'
:::The Colors for the Colonies comes from 'Encyclopedia Galactica pages 50-55'. I also compared it to information in Battlestar Galactica The Official Companion.
:::There were no authors listed for any of the articles.

::::Can you post quotes here containing the relevant details? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 23:29, 1 February 2006 (EST)

:::::I am familiar with the magazine, and feel that we should *provisionally* allow information from the "encyclopedia" stuff at the end, but I also *suspect* that they make that stuff up without input from RDM. I don't know. It is the "Official" magazine. Should be on the same level as info from Scifi.com (which has been known to be wrong, etc.) HOWEVER, things that are straightfoward "interviews" which are a simple transcript of an interview; hard to argue that (like when actors reveal insights about their character based on stuff from the series bible we didn't know before). --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:35, 1 February 2006 (EST)

::::::Actually, I just saw that the magazine claims that Colonial Day is a biannual holiday; First, where would they get that idea? Second, Ron D. Moore ''stated'' in his blog that it is "not a biannual holiday; it's an annual holiday held every year". I wonder why someone got the idea to ask that. Etc. So it's now known to be not entirely accurate. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 23:40, 1 February 2006 (EST)

Okay, I'll try to post everything I found word-for-word. --Ltcrashdown 23:43, 1 February 2006 (EST)

'Colony: Aerelon' is a listing under the personnel file indicating his planet of origin.

Tigh's history specificaly says, 'Saul Tigh entered the fleet as a deckhand but rose through the ranks and was a CPO (Chief Petty Officer) by the time the First Cylon War broke out.' Ltaer it reads, 'Tigh joined the Colonial Officer Candidate School and was reassigned as a Viper pilot, something he excelled in, earning a string of medals in his post aboard the Battlestar Athena.' This is the only refence to the Battlestar Athena.

Tigh's post-War history is given with 'Adama reenlisted with the service and Tigh spent two years drinking before Adama pulled strings to get him back into service. Saul Tigh was straightening his life out when he met his wife Ellen, who he courted and married within two months. Ellen did not take well to military life, and her repeated infidelities drove him back to drink. Ellen and Saul separated shortly before the Cylon attack.'

The Rising Star info was taken from later in teh article with the sentence, 'Three weeks after the Cylon attack Tigh's wife was discovered on the Rising Star, a carrier from Picon.'

The definitions are:
'Colonial Day - An biannual holiday which celebrates the signing of the Articles of Colonization.'
'Alert Fighters - A rotating group of Colonial Vipers which are constantly ready for immediate launch. Their function is to act as support for the Combat Air Patrol.

The colonial colors are just images, so there's nothing to type, but it corresponds with the same colors in the Official Battlestar Companion.

:Excellent, thank you.

:The MLA citation format for a magazine article with no author is as follows:

::"Title of Article." Title of Magazine. Date: Pages.

:So, to use the Saul Tigh article as an example:

::"Cylon Intelligence Report: Personnel File: Saul Tigh." Battlestar Galactica: The Official Magazine. Feb./Mar. 2006: 62.

:Introduce a footnote in the main body text using the <nowiki>{{note}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{note_label}}</nowiki> tags, and place the corresponding citation in a <nowiki>==Sources==</nowiki> header after <nowiki>#{{ref}}</nowiki> and/or <nowiki>{{ref_label}}</nowiki> as appropriate. I will restore your edits to the Saul Tigh article and cite them, to give you an idea. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:00, 2 February 2006 (EST)

::You should also restore the 'Twelve Colonies' changes since all i did there was add Saul to the Aerelon natives and correctly match the Colors with their colonies. --Ltcrashdown 00:02, 2 February 2006 (EST)

::::Maybe he was busted down from CPO during the second year of the war. Or maybe as a Chief Petty Officer, he once served as a Gunner's Mate (though this is a bit of a stretch, I admit). --Ltcrashdown 00:22, 2 February 2006 (EST)

:::This information, however, is contradicted by the deleted scenes from "Valley of Darkness" where Tigh says that in the second year of the War, he was a "Petty Officer...gunner's mate" and not ''already'' a Chief Petty Officer when the war broke out.--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:14, 2 February 2006 (EST)

:::::"Let's cut through it, shall we?" The magazine is obviously compiled by people who are worse fanboys than ''we'' are, and lack our zeal for accuracy. I mean, if they can't even spell "Gemenon" properly, I'm not really inclined to give them much credence. Their information should be taken with a very large grain of salt, when we take it at all. Frankly, I'm a little worried they're going to start using ''us'' as a source.

:::::(Dear lord, I'm using sci-fi quotes out of context and Ricimer's talking in a civil tone of voice. It's like we've ''merged''.) --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:30, 2 February 2006 (EST)

Realize that it my ''business'' to know (of course you know, etc etc). Enough Batman-villian-esque theatrics. ***I only have the first issue, and need to read the other issues. Frankly, it's a combination of *REEALLY* good and really *BAD* material. Basically, they've got 5 or so articles that are worthwhile; but they're exclusive, plus they also give out concept art unavailble elsewhere. Long story short, *I would pay money for the few good articles in it*, but the problem is they want to "pad out" the magazine to get a certain length (and I'm going, "I would pay the same amount of money if you didn't pad it, because the other stuff doesn't add much") I mean, the first one has this *really annoying* '''LITERALLY''' Fanfic letter "from Starbuck" describing an air-combat manuever she pulled off in a Viper (in an article about Vipers). Now, let me remind everyone: ***It's a good magazine and has many good articles. It's just that some of the articles are obviously "filler". Thus, as I said, apart from the flat-out Interviews with cast members or articles written by like David Eick, Garry Hurtzel, production team members, etc. should be held under great critical skepticism. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 00:45, 2 February 2006 (EST)

: This whole thread has been a great read. Very interesting. I have the first issue of this magazine. I sourced it for the [[Pyramid (RDM)]] article some. I remember thinking mostly as you do, Ricimer: Some great stuff, the rest ''horrid''. They're good for interviews, artwork and not much else. The first issue had an interesting thing at the end that seems to be a synopsis of an interview (if I remmeber right) with the head costume person, which I keep meaning to reread and use to add some real-life info to [[Uniform]]. I've also been looking for the other issues in the place where I got the first one, but I can't find it. I a little wary of subscribing to the thing... It just seems like there's a line being crossed there. *wink* --[[User:Day|Day]] 06:06, 2 February 2006 (EST)

==To Do==
*Deprecate citation templates in favor of [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cite/Cite.php#_ref-NYT_1 <ref> tags]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:44, 2 February 2006 (EST)

==BSG Books==

There was recently a novelization for the battlestar galactica mini-series. I was going to get a copy and add information from it to the wikipedia. Does anyone else think this should be done, assuming the novelization yields any new details (i.e. ships, pilots, etc.) --Ltcrashdown 00:14, 4 February 2006 (EST)

: Its come up before. That's where, I think, we got the name Natasi for one of [[Number Six]]'s copies. We're kind of wary of it, but I think there's further discussion on Six's Talk page. --[[User:Day|Day]] 02:51, 4 February 2006 (EST)

::I'm going to post my point by point analysis of it in a matter of hours. It is, on the whole, quite poorly written, and I don't think he had any official stuff to go on, just making it up. Regardless, per "Memory Alpha" template, it deserves it's own page which I will comment more on, but we should not base beliefs on it. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 02:57, 4 February 2006 (EST)

== Sources namespace ==

Just to let everyone know, Sources have their own namespace (i.e. [[Sources:Pegasus (RDM)]]). This avoids having to use the subpage suggestion I had earlier proposed. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 13:11, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

==Koenigrules / Hollywood North Report==
"Koenigrules" (KR) is the alias of Jim Iaccino, a popular reporter of BSG spoilers, whose reports are often cited and reposted by other sources. [http://lvpodcasts.autopodcaster.com/download.php?filename=Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3/Subject_2_Discussion_04_11_2006.mp3 Recent comments] made on the "[http://www.subject2discussion.com/ Subject 2 Discussion]" segment of the "[http://www.lvrocks.com/ LV Rocks]" radio program (transcribed at [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 11 April 2006]]) raised the possibility that KR is merely re-reporting publically available information, and does not appear to be a credible primary source.

[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] investigated this possibility, and posted his findings to [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]]. [[User:Peter Farago|I]] raised the possibility of instating a policy against citing KR's reports as credible sources on Battlestar Wiki, which was seconded by [[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]].

Consequently, I am opening a formal vote here on the matter. Please review [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 11 April 2006]], its putative [http://www.nowcasting.com/sides/Episodic/BATTLESTAR%20GALACTICA/301%20Occupation/Selloi_Dedona_4pgs.pdf source material], and The Merovingian's comments on [[Talk:Precipice#Question about Koenigrules]] prior to casting your vote, and feel free to raise any questions below. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:18, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update:''' Koenigrules has responded to a number of our concerns via e-mail. You can read my correspondence with him at [[Sources:Correspondence with Jim Iaccino]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 2:''' I will be transcribing KR's appearance on tonight's Subject 2 Discussion either later tonight or early tomorrow, and offer my considered opinion afterwards. I may request that the current "blacklist" vote be closed and recast as a more general discussion on the appropriateness of anonymous sources at battlestar wiki. Rebuttals will be welcome. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:05, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 3:''' KR's latest appearance has been transcribed to [[Sources:Subject 2 Discussion, 25 April 2006]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:45, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

'''Update 4:''' My final opinion is available at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Citation Jihad#From Peter]]. I have changed my vote to "Oppose" and have supported Joe's suggestion of closing this vote and moving the topic of discussion to the appropriateness of anonymous sources. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:25, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

===Blacklist Vote===

====In favor of a policy against citing KR as a primary source====
*<del>[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:36, 19 April 2006 (CDT) - I feel like this guy betrayed us. And it's getting worse; 4-5 news sites report things he says as fact; he is not helping at all. Dogger said: "''He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail.''"-->He put that more clearly than I could. Way to go Dogger. :)</del>
*<del>[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 01:11, 20 April 2006 (CDT) If he originates nothing, we lose nothing by not citing him.</del>
*<strike>[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 07:34, 20 April 2006 (CDT) - We do NOT claim to be a primary source here, and everything that is stated as fact should be citable elsewhere. Our sources are therefore our foundation, so they should be held to a high standard.</strike>
#[[User:Talos|Talos]] 10:30, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 11:21, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Grafix|Grafix]] 03:16, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I'm against the publication of anything except the facts.
# [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 17:12, 21 April 2006 (CDT) This is site is a reference, it would be misleading to publish anything other than citable information.
#[[User:AerynSun44|AerynSun44]] 17:15, 21 April 2006 (CDT) I must concur. Too much flotsam.
#*[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 20:38, 21 April 2006 (CDT) <del>I've never heard KR 'reveal' anything that I haven't already seen from another source. I have always seen him as just somebody who reads the same things I read and then repeats them in another venue, but with an extra helping of certainty.</del> He often fails to differentiate what he is reporting from his own speculation, an oversight compounded by the fact that his speculation is hampered by a lack of attention to detail. <del>Perhaps what he does might have some value as a 'digest' of what is being talked about, but I don't see why anyone but the most naive listener would consider him as a primary source.</del>
#*I have struck out parts of my comments that seem to have been proven wrong by some of the history presented in the thread on Skiffy. However, I cannot in good conscience change my vote because of the simple fact that I don't think that anyone claiming an anonymous source should really be considered a primary source, even if that source is genuine. Perhaps 'blacklist' is the wrong word. I simply see this as a test case for what is the appropriate kind of evidence that should be cited as authoritative. Singling out KR is probably unfair, but that doesn't change what I honestly think to be not an appropriate primary source for a wiki. If there were a vote to have a policy against citing any anonymous source as a primary source, then I would be in favour of that too. I consider this vote to be just an example of what I think should be an overall principle. For example, if KR were to name his source, then I don't see any reason not to consider citing that information. The problem I have is not with KR's honesty in particular -- it's with the idea of citing a source without giving the reader the benefit of evaluating its reliability, and that includes anonymity as well as the mixing of facts with speculation.--[[User:Dogger|Dogger]] 19:36, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#*<del>[[User:Gouge|Frankie Gouge]] 02:20, 22 April 2006 (EDT) Credibility is too hard to earn to risk needlessly. Plenty of other sites to get speculative spoilers. </del>
#[[User:Bowersj8|Bowersj8]] 14:31, 22 April 2006 (EDT)
#[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 22:40, 25 April 2006 (CDT) I listened enough to the radio show. (All Annoymous Sources too...)

====Opposed====
#[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 22:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:41, 26 April 2006 (CDT) Individual blacklisting is not appropriate for this case.
#[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 13:49, 26 April 2006 (CDT) It seems he does originate things after all.
#[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:09, 26 April 2006 (CDT) Let's not single out KR on the issue, but we do need to address the issue of anonymous sources (see below).
#[[User:Adedward|Adedward]] 23:28, 28 April 2006 (CDT)

====Abstain====
#[[User:Mercifull|Mercifull]] 07:33, 23 April 2006 (CDT) Changed to abstain because I don't feel I know enough about this issue to choose either way.
#[[User:Quig|Quig]] 10:09, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
#[[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:53, 20 April 2006 (CDT) After reading the unfortunate thread on the Skiffy board and the dialgoue established between Peter and KR, I will abstain until I determine whether or not this whole thing was worth the heartache for all concerned.
#[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:39, 23 April 2006 (CDT)As I've offered to give KR benefit of the doubt in compromise if he'd just be more mindful that at times when he was speculating or when he was giving spoilers was confusing, I'm switching my vote to abstain.
#[[User:Gouge|Frankie Gouge]] 16:05, 24 April 2006 (EDT)
#[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:58, 26 April 2006 (EST)

===Motion by The Merovingian===
While KoenigRules and several of his collleagues insist that he does indeed have access to some sort of spoilers, all of them still will not confirm the veracity of these sources. Seeing as this is what they would do both if they were REAL and if they were NOT REAL sources, we thus arrive at an impasse. Therefore, I want to find some civil compromise over this: I'm a Uniter, not a Divider, and if we start turning on each other Rick Berman's new crackpot scheme to make Star Trek XI: Starfleet Academy will eat us BSG fans alive. '''Proposal''': If KoenigRules promises to be more careful in the future in his interviews, to *'''make it clear'''* when he is giving away '''direct information from his source(s)''', and when he is making a '''speculation''' ''based'' on either this purported source material, ''or'' just his own personal '''opinion''', we will reverse our decision to hold a vote to reject him as a reliable source. For example, if KoenigRules says in an interview "I think Baltar is a Cylon", he should really make it clear that that is just his opinion and not supported by any spoiler source information that he might have, as news sites might miscontrue his comments and lead to a world of trouble. However, the matter of HollyWoodNorthReport itself, which has come under frequent attack from many sites for improperly forgetting to use citations when they source material from other fansites, should be considered a separate matter.

I hope we can all agree to this.

:I don't think this subissue needs a vote. Koenigrules has indicated to me that he'll be able to reply here by monday. If he can adequately address the concerns we've raised, then naturally, the above discussion will be re-evaluated in light of that. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:21, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

====Support====
#--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:48, 22 April 2006 (CDT)

====Oppose====

== On anonymous sources ==

In lieu of all this, I am thinking of further clarifying the section defining what sources we should and should not use on the wiki. In particular, sources that are anonymous should not be referenced (this is fairly common sense, but isn't explicitly stated0. Also, for reference, we should probably add a definitive list of sources, grouped by categories from "uses anonymous source" to "trusted primary sources". (We have a list such as this already on the Citation page, though it could be better defined in my mind. ) Thoughts? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 19:49, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:I agree (though I don't know how to set that up using wiki code).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:46, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
::We would set it up just like the "Image tagging policy" page. The only question is how do we define what is legit and what is not? If we consider how big the internet and how vast information can be found, anyone who reports on infomration at a regular basis could be considered legit, as long as the information is true. (i.e. Gateworld vs. HNR). This would also not benifit the little people. So I am not really a fan of this, but in light of the problem with spoilers vs. fact, this might be needed. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:02, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
:::Well it now seems likely that KR does indeed have a source: he's been heavily involved since the Miniseries, and was on the original nuBSG fan page. What threw me in all of this is that that site **no longer exists**, so when I was trying to fact check his credibility it didn't come up. He still cannot reveal his source without compromising it, so I think Joe's "annonymous source" spoiler tag idea might be best. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:41, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

::::I think anytime something can be better defined, it is a plus to the accuracy of the project. =)-- [[User:Mazzy|Mazzy]] 12:02, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

Everyone I think this has been resolved after our contact with KoenigRules, and we should bring down the site notice on the Main Page that there's a vote going on regarding KR, as I think things have been resolved already and this would only confuse newcomers. KR seems entirely on the level to me now, and we should put this past and move on to other work. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 22:40, 24 April 2006 (CDT)

:Absolutely not. This remains an important issue. Tomorrow night, I will transcribe his appearance on S2D and offer my final opinion. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 01:13, 25 April 2006 (CDT)

===From Peter===

Alright then. Having spoken with KR and listened to his latest podcast, the following is now clear to me:
*KR is not merely re-reporting information gleaned from other sources available to the public. The overlap between the information in the Selloi Dedona casting side and the report made on the 11th is remarkable, but the information he supplied on the 25th cannot be accounted for in light of other publicly available material.
*KR asserts that he has a single, anonymous source for all his reports.
*KR has complied with every request we've made of him, clearly separating his personal speculation from information supplied by his source.

It is therefore my opinion that he has done everything we can reasonably expect him to do, considering the anonymity of his source. I therefore believe that singling him out for blacklisting is inappropriate. I am changing my opinion on the above vote to "oppose", and I support Joe's desire to let the matter drop and refocus the discussion on the nature of our sources.

The [[Battlestar Wiki:Spoiler Policy|Spoiler Policy]], arrived at by grudging compromise last autumn, makes the following statement:

<blockquote>All spoiler information must have a source, whether in the form of a [[Wikipedia:URL|URL]] or a printed publication text, on the ''talk page'' of the spoilerific article. For printed publication text, a copy must be scanned and uploaded to the wiki in the form of a [[Wikipedia:JPG|JPG]] or [[Wikipedia:PNG|PNG]], and posted on the talk page of the article containing the spoilerific content.</blockquote>

Naturally, this arises from a desire for Battlestar Wiki to be a reliable source. The nature of a wiki allows anybody to contribute news and information, which must be checked by a policy such as this. It would obviously be unacceptable to allow anybody to pass off ungrounded speculation as reported fact, bolstered in reputation by dint of its presence on the wiki.

However, the very nature of spoiler reporting renders impossible the goal of maintaining perfect accuracy while reporting on episodes not scheduled to air for months to come. Even the very best sources we can hope to come by - legitimate casting sides and call sheets, for example - may refer to script elements that end up being cut from the final broadcast. Set reports may refer to scenes which are filmed but not included, or be reported out of context.

This is an inevitability to which we must resign ourselves if we intend to report on spoilers at all. However, it can be mitigated by requiring attribution to individual reporters. The real problem with KR's reports is the anonymity of his source. Casting sides and call sheets which arrive in their original format are unlikely to be forged, and set reports substantiated by photographic evidence, but all we have to go on with regard to KR is his good reputation.

I find it awkward to judge submissions here based on such a nebulous concept as the reporter's reputation, which is why my personal preference leans to reporting only information which can be backed up by tangible evidence or sourced to individuals involved in production. However, it should be acknowledged that by excluding anonymous reports such as KR's, we will be depriving ourselves of a prolific source of timely and apparently reasonably accurate information.

Because I consider this a real and important dilemma, I want to solicit comment form other users on the issue of anonymous sources. Particularly relevant questions:
*Should they be allowed at all?
*If so, should we discriminate between different sources on the basis of reputation?
*If so, how should reputation be determined, and who should be responsible for determining it?
--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:22, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

: '''(Intro)''' First of all, I listened to the podcast live. There was quite a number of people in the chat channel inclduing myself. Along with KR, was merv, Ribby, and a few other people that were in the orginal flame war on SciFi.com.
: '''(Question 1)''' anonymous Spoliers are the worest. First of all, they are considered [[Wikipedia:Hearsay]] which means the context of the spolier or information can change and exaserations can be made by the reporter. '''(From the Podcast on Question #1)''' When I listened last night he said he took through notes on what his source said, to make sure he kept the information straight. Usually I have pretty good ears, but I didn't hear any paper's or him lean away from the phone.
: '''(Question 2)''' If gateworld to report this as a spolier, and like this podcast OR link even us as the source with US sourceing it as an annoymous source, [http://gateworld.net/galactica/news/2006/04/secondandthirdepisodetitle.shtml Gateworld] did not list this current radio cast as the source for them knowning the new title. This page was posted a good few hours before the radio show. They have yet to cite or deem these current spoliers on the website.
: '''(Question 3)''' I can not answer this, because I think offical sites, offical news orginzations, are the best place. If this came from Katte's website, or Apollo's then I would be OMG, but it didn't. It came from a source that can not even verify if the spoliers are correct. Teasers are '''offical spoliers''', you can choose to watch them or not, but they are offical. RDM podcasts are offical, RDM blog. etc... etc..
: '''(Conclustion)''' If he was to go on the show stright till october, we would know all of Season 3 BEFORE it happened. For this, I voted to not allow KR be a source, even if another "anonymous" soruce, and only allow '''offical spoliers''' to be reported. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 13:45, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:I'm not that keen on using anonymous sources at all. I don't think it's realistic for us to be everything to everyone, and would rather see us strive to be the concise, accurate, organized repository of BSG knowledge (and let the new sites and forums handle the spoiler info). I could see maybe having a "news" pages with links to such spoilers, but actually putting content into the article that we have no way of verifying (and could prove to be false) seems like a stretch.
:Maybe there's a way for us to be able to "report" the information, without compromising our accuracy. We could, for example, limit spoiler postings to spoiler news areas (which nobody updates anyway), and obvious spoiler pages (like the next season, and upcoming episodes). People reading those pages '''expect''' spoiler information, as there is no canon information available yet. The important thing to keep in mind would be making sure that once the page passes out of the realm of spoilers into to normal article space (by having an airdate, etc), all normal citation requirements must apply. It is a double standard, but there's a clearly demarcated line that could be observed/enforced, and if the spoilers end up being false it only ends up affecting the temporal accuracy of that particular spoiler page, and not the long-term accuracy of the page once aired. I would still prefer not seeing any anonymous sources in the regular article space, though, as the maintenance issues involved would potentially leave false spoiler information in place after the event occurs.
:Also, I'd like to see the above vote closed (since the context since it's opening has changed quite dramatically). I'd rather not change my vote, I'd vote that way again given the same information, but "re-voting" based on the new information seems a bit of the Monday-morning quarterbacking ("I'd a double bagged it.")--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:47, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

::Spoilers are already quarantined into the episode guide pages; quarantining anonymous spoilers somewhere else seems excessive to me. I think we just need to decide one way or another. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:55, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::I didn't realize that was the case. I think I was remembering character pages like [http://www.battlestarwiki.org/en/index.php?title=Helena_Cain&oldid=23108 this] that had spoiler boxes, and it's hard to edit them without running into the spoilers. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:00, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
::::I'm mistaken. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 14:02, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

Having read everything you guys said and listening to the last show, here's my thoughts:
I entirely agree with the three points about KR Peter said; he met our requests and was careful about saying "I guess" "that's what I think", etc., and he incorporated it into his interview smoothly (didn't stop in his tracks and say "everyone be warned this is just what I think, websites shouldn't etc etc etc) which was good for him, not affecting his interview drastically. I think that worked out well for everyone. Nextly, I am actually now quite possitive that '''he does indeed have some sort of spoiler source''', the exact nature of which is of course unknown, but still it is now clear to me that he isn't just basing all of his information on casting sides and public information, but has a source no one else does. The real problem, then, has changed: how do we address spoilers which are based on a reporter who has a ''reputation'' of providing on the whole accurate spoilers ''in the past'', and uses an ''anonymous source'' which nonetheless seems to be a "real" source?
:"Should they be allowed at all? If so, should we discriminate between different sources on the basis of reputation? If so, how should reputation be determined, and who should be responsible for determining it?"
This was an important set of questions Peter, and I think that a new subsection on our sources policy page should be openned up to discuss these questions raised in more detail. '''Further, I agree entirely with you and Joe's feelings that this vote here should be "wiped", singling out a single person would be inappropriate, that we should "let the matter drop and refocus the discussion on the nature of our sources."'''

KR's sources thus seem to ''generally'' be real and he's not just making things up, but that raises all sorts of questions; as said above, these sources tend to be based on early ideas or scripts and are subject to change even if the reports on them were truthfully saying what the production team ''thought'' they were going to do, or might be scenes that even get filmed, but ultimately deleted and possibly becoming deleted scenes that are in fact contradicted by scenes that appear in the final episode rendering them totally non-canonical; i.e. what if someone was on the set and saw the alternate cut of "Pegasus" where Boomer ''actually'' gets raped, then left the set and did not see that ''another'' take of this was filmed where she gets saved at the last minute?...this spoiler source would honestly report that they saw a scene where Boomer gets raped...however even though this scene was filmed, another scene was filmed which completely contradicted it and it is no longer real (as opposed to like, the deleted scenes such as when Roslin gets "Lest We Forget" from Billy in "33", which it appears CAN be thought of as more or less canonical and RDM said was only deleted for time reasons). So, the thing we really need to do is open '''another, more generic discussion on what to do about sources and spoilers'''.

My thoughts on the subject: Generally, we should keep spoiler information confined to news and season 3 pages; by it's very nature the season 3 page is right now filled with spoilers, and people going there are looking for them, and can see the spoiler sign on top. Also, *individual episode entries* for episodes that have not aired yet, such as "Occupation", are obviously going to contain spoilers and people go there to look for them, although even then *gigantic* spoilers should be in a highlighted spoiler-text box so you have to highlight ''specific'' plot information to see it. Once and a while there will be some exceptions where we ''can'' keep spoiler info on a character page, i.e. {{spoiltext|Number Three where Lucy Lawless says she'll be a character like God, and do this for a MAJOR 10 episode arc.}}

We should be very sparing about allowing spoiler info like this off of the upcoming season and news pages. ***Still, '''I think our current spoiler warning policy is more or less okay in turns of placement'''.

What we need to really focus on is tagging our sources.

{{spoiltext|I mean, Lucy Lawless said the above thing in ''an interview'' and thus it is okay to add to a page. However, KR's recent comments about what Starbuck is doing in various season 3 episodes should '''definately not be added to the Starbuck page until they are confirmed by production photos''', but still will appear on season 3, news, and season 3 episode pages. }}

Ultimately, I think we actually have to run KoenigRules' spoilers: Gateworld, Galaticastation, and most other Battlestar Galactica news sites all tend to run them within a few days. We'd be seen as less reliable about our info if someone could get better info from somewhere else. ***I think the best idea would be to '''run these annonymous source spoilers only *after* an official news site like Gateworld or Galacticastation has already run them''', like the day after they run them, we report that "Gateworld reported this story, it came from a radio interview which gave news from an anonymous source".

Sort of like the "Citation needed" tag, which appears in the article but as a little super-script? I think we need a new one of those which says "Information from an anonymous source, not confirmed" or something to that effect. Well those are just my early thoughts on the subject. Bottom line: ESSENTIALLY, KR does seem to have a real spoiler source, though he won't reveal it. We need to figure out how to handle anonymous sources like this. We should remove this vote as new information we've gotten has shed more light on the matter, and we should refocus this onto a more ''generic'' "who do we handle anonymous spoilers" discussion on our sources page. I agree with Farago and SteelViper. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:49, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:Maybe you should wrap the actual spoiler content in the above in spoiler tags. I hadn't read some of that yet (and try to avoid it).--[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:04, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Merv writes: ''I think that a new subsection on our sources policy page should be openned up to discuss these questions raised in more detail.''
:The Citation Jihad ''is'' our sources policy page, and we're having that discussion right now. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:14, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

::I meant a new subheading. (I will find those spoiltexts SV...)--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 15:19, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:::If we allow a spolier to be listed like this it would be moot to what we are. This is not even offical. Spoliers with cast memebers are offical. We become something we are not supposed to be. If I reported annoymously that I heard BSG Wiki was closing and it was annoymous source, it could be anyone, however int his case, Joe is the only one. So a reported would ask joe is BSG closing, or joe would see it and he would look to see who spread that rumor because the fact is not true. Just put yourself in RDM shoes. What would he say to the production staff. Please do not leak spoliers. Actors are bound by the [[Wikipedia:SAG]] contracts in which they why can't reveal sources otherwise they can be seriously fined. They do comment on the show and what their characeter does, but not the spolt details itself. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:31, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::All spoilers should be sourced. If that source is anonymous, that should probably be specifically, explicitly noted, but I cannot see how it would hurt to include them if they are so marked. Each reader can then judge how much stock to put in an anonymous source individually, since it's a point on which reasonable people can differ. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 15:53, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::: If you don't mind spoiler's read the two reports. One is from The [[Season 3 (2006-07)]] page and the other is from the new discussion.

{{spoiltext|According to Ron D. Moore's podcast of the Captain's Hand, Apollo will continue to be the Commander of the Pegasus well into Season 3.}}
This goes totally against
{{spoiltext|

KR: It's not— I don't think you're going to have a Galactica spinoff

SO: Uh oh. Well, I mean, they could've done a spinoff with the Pegasus if they'd wanted to, they could've done some other things, but I mean even that as fan fiction—

KR: Did you say "Pegasus"?

SO: Uh oh.

KR: Did you say "Pegasus"? Episode 303.

SO: Uh oh.

KR: Pegasus is destroyed.

SO: Oh no, you're kidding me! Who's on it when it gets destroyed?

KR: Don't know. But it is sent— my source says it is sent on a collision course to a Cylon base ship so that the Galactica can get away.

}}
Goes totally against an offical spoiler. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:13, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
:Possiblities: (1) Plans have changed since RDM made that podcast, (2) Plans have not changed, the producers feel that three episodes are enough to show Lee's ups and downs of command, (3) Keonigrules' source is flatly mistaken or (4) didn't get the details right (it's a Pegasus Viper that is sacrificed, or something like that). --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 20:58, 26 April 2006 (EST)

=== From Joe ===

Well, I've created {{tl|spoileranony}} with the following wording:

{{spoileranony}}

Basically, I feel that as long as we can cite a source for the rumor, we should report it as such. Care must be taken to ensure that we inform our readers that this information is rumor and speculation. Here are the criteria I'd prefer we use:

# As so long as it is reported on a valid news source (Gateworld, HNR, S2D), we can report it as well.
# We must take care to indicate that these are rumors. Therefore they may or may not be accurate. (Templates such as {{tl|spoileranony}} reflect this view.)
# We must make sure that we are not the primary source for these rumors -- we aren't a news and rumors site. We're a reference. We summarize and scrutinized what's been reported, nothing more, nothing less. (I guess I'm repeating point 1, but I don't think I can emphasize this enough.)

I think we may have to create a page specifically dealing with rumors, such as [[Battlestar Wiki:Rumor Policy]]. Thoughts?

So that's what I have to say on that subject... Unless anything else comes to mind. :-) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:34, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:Page takes a second to create... :) --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:41, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
::{{tl|Episode List}} - needs to be updated. I posted a suggestion to split up the three seasons because spoliers and title names should be inclduded. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 16:46, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:::I agree with the three points Joe has listed here. I'm unsure on precise implementation though but we'll be hammering that out for a while. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 16:50, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:First, let me address some of your points above:
:#What the heck is a valid news source? Anyone can start a blog and be a "valid news source". This goes back to the credibility/reputation problem.
:#If we do decide to permit anonymous spoilers, an ostentatious warning banner is the last thing we need. This is alread taken care of by the spoiler and spoiltext tags we already have. The anonymity of the source should simply be noted in the citation.
:I'm afraid I'm still against anonymous sources. If we report anonymous spoilers, we ''must'' take into account the reputation of the poster. Since we ''cannot'' do this in an objective and non-arbitrary manner, we therefore cannot report anonymous spoilers.
:Lastly, there is nothing that we would cover in a "Rumor" policy that we couldn't cover here. Let's not spread ourselves thin. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:09, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

: "What the heck is a valid news source?" A very good question indeed. In fact, you do raise many interesting points above and I believe we should consider very carefully whether or not we cite spoilers. I'm starting to reconsider that. Anyone else want to chime in? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 20:19, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

:: I dislike spoilers and only read them because it's an effective necessity to edit here; they don't add anything that wouldn't be there after the episode anyway. My opinion on anonymous sources for them (under the assumption that spoilers in general will be cited) is above. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 20:43, 26 April 2006 (CDT)

Soundtrack (Season 2)

2006-04-04T21:12:10Z

Adedward: /* Track Listing */

Listen to an interview with Battlestar Galactica composer [[Bear McCreary]] and six full tracks from the upcoming Soundtrack (Season 2) at [http://www.filmmusicradio.com/index.php?todo=inside&header=&page=&storyid=18&storycategory=&storycategory1= Film Music Radio]. (Fast forward to 1:06:25 for the Season 2 tracks.)

==Track Listing==
'''Galactica Attacks''' (from "[[Pegasus]]")

'''Gina Escapes''' (from "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]")

'''Roslin and Adama''' (from "[[Resurrection Ship, Part II]]")

'''Baltar's Dream''' (from "[[Scattered]]")

'''Market''' (from "[[Black Market]]")

'''Adama's Choice''' (from "[[Home, Part I]]")

[[Category:Merchandise]]

Kara Thrace

2006-04-04T18:51:54Z

Adedward: /* Lay Down Your Burdens */

:''This article discusses the [[Battlestar Galactica (RDM)|Re-imagined Series]] character with the pilot callsign of "Starbuck." For more on Kara Thrace's counterpart in the [[Battlestar Galactica (TOS)|Original Series]], see [[Starbuck (TOS)]].''
{{Character Data|
|photo= [[Image:Kara Thrace.jpg|200px]]
|age=
|colony= [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]]
|birthname= Kara Thrace
|callsign= Starbuck
|death=
|parents=
|siblings=
|children=
|marital status= Married to [[Samuel Anders]] (Formerly engaged to [[Zak Adama]])
|role= Unknown, Formerly: Commander Air Group, Battlestar ''Galactica'' ([[The Captain's Hand]])
|rank= Captain
|actor= [[Katee Sackhoff]]
|cylon=
|name=
}}

== Biography ==

=== Background ===

'''Kara "Starbuck" Thrace''', serial number [?]T-462753, is a gifted pilot - and knows it. This has tended to give her an attitude that has at times thwarted her career advancement.

In an unhappy childhood, she was so frequently beaten by her mother that she came to accept pain as a way of life ([[Flesh and Bone]]). Her father was a pianist ([[Valley of Darkness]]), suggesting that her formerly broken finger bones on both hands had been intentionally broken by a parent using her father's piano ([[The Farm]]). Kara left home to join the [[Colonial Fleet|military]]. On graduating from Colonial Flight School, she undertook a period of active duty before returning to flight school as an instructor.

It was in this role that Thrace broke her cardinal rule of flying and fell in love with a young recruit, [[Zak Adama]]. Despite Zak's mediocre performance as a pilot, Thrace's love for him - and the fact that she could see emulating his father was so important to him - caused her to pass him on his final flight examination, despite failing three of the required maneuvers ([[Act of Contrition]]).

Already engaged to Zak at the time she passed him for flight status, she was unable to marry him, as he was killed during a routine mission shortly after graduating. At the time, [[Lee Adama]], Zak's elder brother, blamed their father for Zak's death, and in her guilt, Kara did little to alter this idea. She did, however, meet [[William Adama]] shortly after the accident, and the two struck up such a strong rapport that they stood together at Zak's funeral ([[Act of Contrition]]).

Following the funeral, Kara resigned from flight School as a instructor and transferred as an operational pilot aboard [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica]]'' under the command of William Adama, where she served for some two years prior to the [[Cylon attack]] on the [[Twelve Colonies]]. Before the Cylon attack, she was second in command of pilots to the [[CAG]], [[Jackson Spencer]].

While she is temporarily in the brig for fighting with Colonel Tigh, Captain Spencer is killed in a Cylon slaughter of ''Galactica's'' last Viper squadron. With her incarceration, Lee Adama, who joins ''Galactica'', is given the senior pilot title. Apparently, she approves of Apollo being assigned the leadership role: "I'm not a big enough dipstick for the job," she says about herself ([[Miniseries]]).

During her time aboard ''Galactica'', Kara's flying skills proves her as one of finest pilots in the Colonial Fleet, but her attitude quickly runs her afoul of other senior officers on-board ship, notably Colonel [[Saul Tigh]], ''Galactica's'' [[Executive officer]]. Tigh and Thrace take an instant dislike to each other, perhaps each seeing a similar level of failure in the other: Tigh with his drinking problem, and Thrace with the knowledge that she caused [[Zak Adama]]'s death. Their open mutual dislike of one another leads to the point where blows are exchanged, with Thrace ending up in the brig ([[Miniseries]]).

At the time of the Cylon attack she has an apartment in [[Delphi]]. It overlooks a parking lot and had a broken toilet. She was also a very avid painter, and her flat is cluttered with her paintings ([[Valley of Darkness]]).

=== Post-[[Cylon Attack]] ===

Following the Cylon attack on the Twelve Colonies, Thrace returns to flight status, where she quickly proves her worth as a remarkable pilot - right down to using her own Viper to rescue Lee Adama when his ship is disabled in the [[Battle of Ragnar Anchorage|escape from Ragnar Anchorage]] ([[Miniseries]]). This action brings her grudging respect from Colonel Tigh, but she is unable to accept his offer of the olive branch - an act that will have repercussions for her later.
[[image:Bastille_Day-Starbuck_Boxey.jpg|thumb|left|[[Kara Thrace|Starbuck]] as acting [[CAG]] with [[Boxey (RDM)|Boxey]] as assistant in [[Bastille Day]]. (C. Sci Fi Channel)]]
After ''Galactica'' suffers a drastic loss of water reserves due to an act of sabotage ([[Water]]), a hostage situation erupts on a [[Astral Queen|prison transport ship]], involving Lee Adama ([[Bastille Day]]). While Captain Adama is being held hostage, Lt. Thrace serves as interim [[CAG]] in the briefing room. Tigh criticizes her behavior as acting [[CAG]].

Thrace aides in assembling a rescue mission on the ''[[Astral Queen]]''. Surprisingly, Thrace gets the backing of Tigh himself and the acknowledgment that she is the best sharpshooter in [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]]. Following the successful mission, Thrace tries to mend fences between herself and the XO with a toast (consisting of water), apologizing in much the same way as Tigh himself had tried after their initial escape from [[Ragnar Anchorage]]. But this time it is Tigh that rejects Thrace's apology, stating that her flaws are professional, while his flaws were personal ([[Bastille Day]]).

Having partially admitting her role in Zak Adama's death to Lee Adama ([[Miniseries]]), Thrace must confront her past head-on when a freak accident on ''Galactica's'' [[Hangar Deck|hangar deck]] kills 13 Viper pilots and puts a further seven pilots in [[sickbay]]. Charged with finding and training new pilots ("[[nugget|nuggets]]" in pilot slang), Thrace faces up to past mistakes, and eventually admits her secret to William Adama himself, an act that brings their close friendship almost to the breaking point ([[Act of Contrition]]).

Shortly after, Thrace engages a fight with eight Cylon Raiders while leading a training flight from ''Galactica'', Thrace orders her training cadets to return to ''Galactica'' and engages the enemy fighters. One cadet, [[Brendan Constanza|Hot Dog]], disobeys Thrace and fights as her wingman long enough to distract the Raiders sufficiently to where Thrace's odds of survival are increased. Starbuck's remarkable flying destroys almost all the Raiders, but a final Raider critically damages her Viper just as she shoots the Raider. Both ships lose control and tumble towards a small red moon with an unbreathable atmosphere. With her Viper in a fatal flat-spin, Starbuck is forced to eject from her Viper ([[You Can't Go Home Again]]).

The crash prompts ''Galactica'' to conduct a system-wide search for Starbuck, led by Adama and his son, each reacting to his guilt at his response to her admission about Zak Adama. While the search and rescue operations place [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]] at extreme risk, they nevertheless keep the Fleet in the star system long enough for Thrace (nursing a damaged knee) to repair the downed Cylon Raider and get it flying again before using it to return to ''Galactica'', which provides Adama with vital intelligence on Cylon fighter technology.

Taken off the pilot's active duty roster as a result of her injured leg, Starbuck sees her role become more desk-bound. She is recognized by Commander Adama for her unconventional thinking, and he asks her to plan a special attack on a Cylon [[tylium]] refinery. The tactical planning role is not something she relishes, and she frequently shows resentment towards others for her condition ([[The Hand of God (RDM)|The Hand of God]]).

She also interrogates a Cylon prisoner. The interrogation of [[Leoben Conoy]] is a task Thrace does not particularly wish for, especially when the situation (a nuclear device allegedly hidden on one of the ships in the Fleet) pushes her into some drastic acts to try to extract the information from the Cylon agent ([[Flesh and Bone]]).

Off-duty, Thrace maintains her cocky persona by playing cards and gambling for money. Her devil-may-care attitude brings her to the attention of Doctor [[Gaius Baltar]] ([[Water]]). She becomes quite interested in Baltar at first, but she quickly comes to despise him for reasons not quite clear. Despite her reckless approach to life, Thrace hides the fact that she is deeply spiritual. She frequently prays (or talks) to the [[Lords of Kobol]], particularly [[Aphrodite]] and [[Artemis]] in times of need ([[Miniseries]], "[[Flesh and Bone]]", "[[You Can't Go Home Again]]").

=== The Arrow of Apollo ===
[[image:Starbuck-Kobols_Last_Gleaming_pt2.jpg|thumb|right|'''Starbuck''' retrieves the [[Arrow of Apollo]] in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]].]]
Being the only qualified pilot to fly the Cylon Raider, Thrace is assigned to plant a nuclear device on board a [[Basestar (RDM)|basestar]] in orbit around [[Kobol]]. Before the assignment, [[Laura Roslin]] calls a meeting with her and convinces Thrace to jump to [[The Twelve Colonies (RDM)#Caprica|Caprica]] to retrieve the [[Arrow of Apollo]]. Disobeying orders, disillusioned after confirming that Commander Adama fabricated that he knew the actual location of [[Earth]], she Jumps to Caprica in the Raider ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I]]), landing in [[Delphi]]. Upon recovering the unusual Arrow in the [[Delphi Museum of the Colonies]], she is violently attacked by a copy of [[Number Six]]. Despite being heavily outmatched in the fight, Thrace luckily defeats the Cylon, who was mortally wounded after being impaled with a piece of jutting debris as the two women fell to a bombed-out lower level.

At the museum, she discovers [[Karl Agathon|Helo]], whom she thought dead. She also discovers a second copy of [[Sharon Valerii]] and realizes instantly that the woman is a Cylon. Thrace attempts to shoot her, but Helo stops Thrace and reveals to Starbuck that the "Caprica" Valerii is pregnant with his child, adding more to Kara's stress level to the point where she begins to sob ([[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]). To make matters worse, Valerii, fearing for her child, runs away and steals Thrace's Raider. Starbuck hears the whine of the fighter's engines but is too late to stop the Cylon's escape. In exasperation, Starbuck could only mutter: "Bitch took my ride" ([[Scattered]]). Like Helo, Starbuck was left with no way to return to the Fleet unless she could find her Raider or another Cylon spacecraft, as enemy FTL engines were the only ones sufficently powerful to reach the Fleet.

Starbuck is not sympathetic to Helo's love for the Caprica copy of Sharon, and berates him for his stupidity. Thrace makes a pit stop from the fighting and leads Helo to her old apartment in Delphi. There she digs up a stash of [[fumarello]]s, dons an old military fatigue jacket she apparently wore around her home, and starts up a battery-powered music player. The piano music she listens to is something recorded of her father's, a pianist. Throughout the dusty, but intact apartment were paintings Thrace had made, some fascinating, but many eerie in tone. Helo has little luck in finding food, but Thrace finds the keys of her surplus military utility vehicle in her jacket. Thrace has a ride again, if only to move more efficiently about Caprica ([[Valley of Darkness]]).

Thrace and Helo are initially attacked by a [[Resistance (movement)|resistance movement]] on Caprica. In a standoff, ([[Resistance]]) Thrace and the Resistance leader, [[Samuel Anders]], sufficiently convince each other that neither of them are Cylon agents. Thrace and Anders strike up a rapport as fellow [[pyramid (RDM)|pyramid]] players and end up as lovers. During planning to steal a [[Heavy Raider]], Thrace is shot in a military action, waking up in a hospital on Caprica. Thrace is told by her doctor, [[Simon]], that Anders died from wounds he suffered in getting Thrace to safety.

But Thrace's instincts about her doctor nag her, particularly after some mysterious surgeries by Simon. Her suspicions are confirmed when she discovers that Simon is working with a [[Number Six|known Cylon agent]]. She overhears that the next day he plans to extract her ovaries for use in the Cylon's attempts to study and create a hybrid Cylon/human embryo. Simon also makes the mistake of calling Thrace by her callsign, Starbuck, which she had never revealed. Staggering and in pain, Thrace kills Simon and manages to escape to the front of the hospital, but not before clocking a Six copy with a fire extinguisher and destroying the local farm power supply, mercy-killing [[Sue-Shaun]] and several other women in the facility.

Simon reappears in front of Thrace at the exit to the hospital just as the Resistance attacks the facility. The second Simon, now revealed as a Cylon agent himself, is immediately killed by the Resistance, but a squad of [[Cylon Centurion]]s appear and pins the Resistance down. Luckily, the [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica copy of Sharon Valerii]] swoops in with a stolen [[Heavy Raider]], destroys the Centurions and flies the Resistance and Thrace out of harm's way.

Thrace promises to Anders that she'll return with a rescue mission for the remaining survivors, leaving him her [[Identification Tags|identification tags]] as a promise and friendship token. Anders returns the Arrow of Apollo to Thrace, which he hid on the resistance grounds for safekeeping ([[The Farm]]).

Thrace, Helo and the pregnant Valerii land on the ''[[Astral Queen]]'' in the Heavy Raider. Finding the [[Laura Roslin faction]] in orbit of [[Kobol]], Kara is reunited with Lee. He kisses her impulsively, catching Kara by pleasant surprise, but a tense standoff follows when Apollo discovers that another Valerii copy has returned with them. Roslin helps defuse the situation, and Thrace delivers the Arrow of Apollo to the President.

Temporarily removed from the protocol of military discipline a few hours before their departure to Kobol's surface, Lee playfully teases Kara by stealing a pyramid ball she took from Caprica. Lee senses her depression about Caprica and tells her that he'd be happy to hear about any problems she had. He also let slip that he loved her, which brightened Kara's mood to the point where she teased him back about his slip.

With a team led by Laura Roslin, Lee Adama, and, later, joined by the recovered Commander Adama, Thrace enters the [[Tomb of Athena]] and successfully uses the Arrow of Apollo to activate a hologram that shows constellations of the Twelve Colonies' ancient symbols.

:'''[[Billy Keikeya]]''': Uh... where the hell are we? 
:'''Laura Roslin''': I don't know. Tomb of Athena, I think. 
:'''Commander Adama''': I thought we were already in the tomb. 
:'''Kara Thrace''': I think that was the lobby. 

Thrace realizes that they are on a recreation of Earth, and realizes they are seeing, in a sense, what their brothers would see in Earth's sky. Together with Lee Adama, they locate the Lagoon Nebula, a celestial body known to Commander Adama and Lee Adama, and gather sufficient information to begin an actual course to Earth ([[Home, Part II]]).

Thrace and Lee Adama continue to appear more and more comfortable in their working and off-duty friendship. They compliment each other often when in live-fire encounters ([[Home, Part II]]) as well as off-duty practice ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]). Thrace never fails to playfully tease Lee when she can, showing off the impressive stealth abilities and her flying skills of the new [[Blackbird]] fighter in her maiden flight ([[Flight of the Phoenix]]).

=== Enter ''Pegasus'' ===

With the initially welcome discovery of another Colonial battlestar, ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]'', Admiral [[Helena Cain]] summarily assigns Thrace (and Lee Adama) to ''Pegasus'' after digesting the reports of ''Galactica'''s officers, which is a source of irritation for Commander [[William Adama]].

After critically commenting against ''Pegasus'' [[CAG]] Captain [[Cole Taylor]]'s plan to recon the [[Resurrection Ship]] tracking [[The Fleet (RDM)|the Fleet]], Taylor removes Thrace from the mission. Lee Adama, also miffed by Thrace's and his change in seniority, secretly tells her to use the newly built [[Blackbird]] stealth craft to take recon photos of the Cylon Unknown. Adama believes that the stealth craft has a better chance of taking reconnaissance photos due to its stealth abilities; like Thrace, he believes that Vipers and a Raptor wouldn't be an effective recon force. ([[Pegasus (episode)|Pegasus]])

Thrace is away on her covert recon mission, unaware of the showdown between Commander Adama and Admiral Cain over Cain's totalitarian command style in her quick conviction of [[Karl Agathon|Helo]] and [[Galen Tyrol]] for the accidental death of "Cylon interrogator" Lt. [[Alistair Thorne]].

Upon return from her very successful mission, the [[Blackbird]]'s lack of a Colonial transponder is mistaken for a Cylon [[Raider]] on [[DRADIS]], and Starbuck is nearly confronted and shot at by Vipers from ''Pegasus'' and ''Galactica''. After narrowly avoiding certain death by declaring herself a friendly, Thrace transmits her recon photos to ''Pegasus'' and Admiral Cain.

Cain is so impressed with Starbuck's performance that Cain promotes Thrace to Captain and ''Pegasus'' CAG. Cain initially wanted to place Lee Adama in the brig for his part in the unauthorized recon operation, but she chose to take Adama off of flight status. Thrace is assigned the task of planning the joint attack on the Resurrection Ship, but successfully asks to have Adama on her team, restoring him to flight status. Cain hears of Thrace's desire to return to Caprica to rescue members of the [[Resistance (movement)|Resistance]] there, but Cain suggests the idea of returning to the Colonies in an effort to beat the Cylons and win their homeworlds back. Thrace indicates approval, but her card face might have been showing. Later, Lee Adama meets with Thrace as she works on the battle plan. He complains that she appears to be working as if nothing has happened, as if the tensions between Commander Adama and Cain didn't exist. Thrace replies that while Cain was in command, there is nothing to do about the situation.

After she briefs Cain and Commander Adama on her battle plan, Adama asks her to stay behind to discuss more of the plan. In reality, he asks Thrace to assassinate Cain after the battle is complete and her fighters are accounted for. Adama fears that if Cain continues to command, he will be killed, leaving no one to stop Cain from inflicting the same fate on his Fleet as she did to a civilian fleet that ''Pegasus'' stripped for resources and left for dead in space ([[Resurrection Ship, Part I]]).

Before the attack, Thrace meets with Lee Adama, who comforts her on the task that Commander Adama asks of her.

Thrace's battle planning, as before on the tylium mine, works to near-perfection, with the Resurrection Ship destroyed and its supporting basestars. However, the plan to kill Cain is left with a serious hitch; Lieutenant Adama, who takes the [[Blackbird]] out to destroy the FTL drive on the Resurrection Ship, is missing in action, in need of rescue in space after a collision destroys the Blackbird. As such, Thrace is left without backup as she walks to the ''Pegasus'' CIC, obviously afraid and apprehensive. When Commander Adama calls, Thrace slowly moves her hand to her sidearm but, to her relief, Adama does not give the kill order and cryptically instructs her to stand down.

Thrace visits Lee Adama in pilot's quarters on ''Galactica'' after his rescue. He appears dazed and impassive. She dismisses his apology on not being able to back up Thrace on her aborted kill mission, saying that it was good for both of them just to make it back alive once more. But young Adama surprises her by saying that he didn't want to make it back alive. Nearby, [[Anastasia Dualla]], who has shown more than a passing interest in Lee Adama in the past, eavesdrops on the conversation and leaves equally worried.

A few weeks later, Thrace was taking leave on [[Cloud 9]] when she was dragooned into a rescue operation after over a dozen people, including Ellen Tigh, Billy, Dee, and Apollo were held hostage by terrorists demanding Adama turn over [[Sharon Valerii]]. Thrace attempted gather intel on the situation, but Mrs. Tigh inadvertantly blew her cover. Thrace and her marines laid down some fire, removing two terrorists from the equation, but Apollo was caught in the crossfire. After the situation was resolved, Thrace intended to sit at Lee's bedside, only to discover that Dualla beat her there. ([[Sacrifice]])

About a month after the Cloud 9 incident, Thrace was assigned to Pegasus as a flight trainer. Though the pilots liked her, the ship's commander began to find fault with everything she did, eventually confining her to quarters for "insubordination" after she attempted to inform him of the Cylon ambush tactic using distress beacons. Maj. Adama covertly overruled the Commander, ordering Thrace to fly in the battle. Following the [[Battle of the Binary Star System]], when Lee was promoted to Commander and given command of ''Pegasus'', Thrace informed him that she was taking over his CAG post aboard ''Galactica''. Apparently, Adm. Adama thought it best he keep an eye on her personally ([[The Captain's Hand]]).

===Lay Down Your Burdens===
[[Image:Karanew.jpg|150px|thumb|right|Kara Thrace one year later]]
Shortly before the presidential election, Thrace took a squad of 20 raptors back to Caprica to rescue [[Samuel Anders|Anders]] and the [[Resistance]], as she promised. With permission from the president and the admiral, and with the aid of [[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)|Caprica-Sharon]], Starbuck and Helo were able to return to Caprica with the loss of only two Raptors. The group soon met up with Anders, who reported that their HQ had been destroyed and Thrace's timing was just perfect. A squad of Centurions fired on their position shortly thereafter. ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I]])

While waiting it out under Cylon attack, Starbuck and Anders agreed that they would kill each other rather than go back to one of the [[Farms]]. When the attack stopped, Thrace, naturally suspicous, ordered the group to "fight 'em until we can't." But the Centurions had vanished. Brother [[Cavil]] then appeared and praised the [[Lords of Kobol|Gods]] over the Cylons' abandonment of Caprica. Starbuck wasn't really surpised to discover he was a Cylon upon their return to the Fleet.

Starbuck and Anders proceeded to get drunk, and received a disasterous visitation from Apollo while doing it. This apparently led to a rift between the two comrades, such that Kara thought Lee wouldn't provide antibiotics for Anders, even a year later (either that, or something happened between the two during the year that was jumped).

Thrace married Anders, and the two moved to [[New Caprica City]]. Kara was deeply distressed when he developed pneumonia, and did her best to care for him. Life on New Caprica tempered Thrace, and she often behaved in ways Starbuck never would have. She was horrified by the sudden arrival of hundreds of Cylon ships in the sky of New Caprica. As squad after squad of Centurions marched through the city streets, a few of Galactica's former crew gathered near Thrace, looking to her for guidance. Kara responded the only way she knew how: "We fight 'em 'till we can't." ([[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]])

==Notes==

According to SkyOne, Thrace was born on Picon but raised all over the Twelve Colonies. Her mother was a Sergeant Major in the Colonial [[Marines]] and a decorated veteran of the [[First Cylon War]]. Her father was named Dreilide, and is described as a "frustrated" musician.

Here is SkyOne's summary of Thrace:

:''Starbuck is Commander Adama's best pilot, as well as flight partner and closest comrade to Apollo, Adama's estranged son.''

:''Kara Thrace was born on the Picon Colony, but raised all over the 12 Colonies. Her childhood was spent bouncing from one military outpost to another. Her mother was a sergeant major in the Colonial Marines, and a decorated veteran of the Cylon war. Her father, Dreilide, was a frustrated musician.''

:''Kara was a tough minded-child who dreamed of playing Pyramid in the big leagues someday. her mother wanted her to pursue a career in the military...Kara did not want this, so signed up to the academy to pursue her love of sports.''

:''Her future as a sports star ended when she was seriously injured, shattering her right knee. Most surgeons felt her knee would never be the same. Depressed, Kara applied to various post-graduate posts, but doubted she would be accepted. To her surprise, she scored the highest academic record for a flight-training exam. Kara soon discovered a love of flying.''

:''She would be a pilot for life - unless she got kicked out first, as Kara hated taking orders and military protocol. If that wasn't enough, Kara drank and gambled too much. While her academic and personal life was not first class, it couldn't be disputed that she was destined to fly.''

:''Kara served her first tour aboard the Battlestar Triton, but she was not admired by all, and soon found herself shipped back to where she started.''

:''This is where she met Zak Adama, and fell in love. Tragedy struck when Zak failed a key flight test and his plane crashed. Kara was devestated. She then spent two years on the Galactica - concentrating on her flying.''

As this information has not appeared on the Scifi.com series website or on screen, it has yet to be confirmed.

On the Sci-Fi Channel's preview for season 2.5 (US), Katee Sackoff is quoted as saying that Starbuck is "the best Viper pilot...EVER."
=== Additional Notes ===

*[[Wikipedia:Thrace|Thrace]] was a region in south-eastern Europe that was heavily influenced by the ancient Greeks and was eventually conquered by [[Wikipedia:Philip_II_of_Macedonia|Phillip II of Macedonia]]. Thracians were considered by most to be the most ferocious fighters and were often highly paid mercenaries for Greek kings.

{{start box}}
{{succession box|before=[[Cole Taylor|Cole "Stinger" Taylor]]|title=Commander, Air Group of the [[Mercury class battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Pegasus (RDM)|Pegasus]]''|after=''(unknown)''}}
{{succession box|before=[[Lee Adama|Lee "Apollo" Adama]]|title=Commander, Air Group of the [[Galactica type battlestar|battlestar]] ''[[Galactica (RDM)|Galactica]]''|after=''(unknown)''}}
{{end box}}

{{Characters}}

[[Category:A to Z|Thrace, Kara]]
[[Category:Characters|Thrace, Kara]]
[[Category:RDM|Thrace, Kara]]
[[Category:People from Caprica|Thrace, Kara]]

Quotes:03 28

2006-03-17T12:09:19Z

Adedward:

'''[[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)]]:''' They killed my [[Hera|baby]]. Do you think I care about you, or the admiral, or us anymore?
 
'''[[Karl Agathon]]:''' Sharon, I love you and I'm not giving up this frakkin' easy after everything! 
--''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]''

Quotes:03 28

2006-03-17T12:09:08Z

Adedward:

'''[[Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy)]]:''' They killed my [[Hera|baby]]. Do you think I care about you, or the admiral, or us anymore?
 
'''[[Karl Agathon]]:''' Sharon, I love you and I'm not giving up this frakkin easy after everything! 
--''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]''

Quotes:03 23

2006-03-17T12:07:42Z

Adedward:

'''[[Laura Roslin]]:''' All anyone wants to do is talk about that frakkin' [[New Caprica|planet]]. 
--''[[Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II]]''

Litmus

2005-11-02T04:28:44Z

Adedward: /* Guest Stars */

[[Image:bsg-1-06.jpg|thumb|"Litmus" (credit: Sci-Fi Channel)]]

== Overview ==
:When Aaron [[Doral]] turns up on ''[[Galactica]]'' and detonates a device made from the ship's own munitions, [[Adama]] orders a full investigation - and [[Tyrol]]'s relationship with [[Boomer]] becomes the focus of the investigation

== Summary ==

* A group of civilians arrives aboard ''[[Galactica]]''. As they make their way through the ship, one of them slips away to make his way through the ship on his own
* Elsewhere, [[Tyrol, Galen|Chief Tyrol]] secretly meets with [[Valerii, Sharon|Boomer]] after their relationship had been banned by [[Tigh, Saul|Colonel Tigh]] ([[You Can’t Go Home Again]]) – they meet in the inspection space above the refurbished water tanks
* The visitor to the ''Galactica'' is seen and recognised by Tigh, who calls security. At the same time, he is seen and challenged by [[Adama, William|Adama]]
* Turning to face them, the visitor turns to reveal himself as [[Doral, Aaron|Aaron Doral]] – suspected Cylon ([[Mini-Series]]) – who has a bomb strapped to his chest, which he detonates – almost killing Adama and Tigh
* With three people killed in the blast, Adama orders an investigation into how Doral got aboard and accessed Galactica’s own munitions store, and places his [[Master-at-Arms]] in charge of what becomes a public inquiry
* Interviewing hangar bay personnel, including [[Cally]] and [[Socinus]], the Master-at-Arms, Sergeant [[Hadrian]] – latches on to the fact that she is given three different locations for Tyrol’s whereabouts during the time when Doral came aboard the ship; the time coinciding to the time Tyrol was meeting Boomer
* At the same time, [[Roslin, Laura|Roslin]] holds a press conference, revealing the truth about [[Humano-Cylon|humano-Cylons]] and releasing pictures of Doral and [[Conoy, Leoben|Conoy]]. The news is greeted with a stunned reaction throughout the fleet
* As a result of her investigations, Hadrian brings both Boomer and Tyrol before the board of inquiry for questioning
* Boomer is questioned first – specifically about her relationship with Tyrol, which she claims has stopped on the orders of the [[XO]]
* Hadrian then focuses on Tyrol and his whereabouts at the time of the bombing, and Boomer claims she has no idea
* Putting Tyrol on the stand, Hadrian focuses her questions around a hatchway that was left open – a hatchway he should have ensured was closed, and which lead directly to the small arms locker where the explosives had been stolen, and to which he had the access code
* In response, Tyrol points out that several people have the access code to the locker – including Hadrian herself, who is also responsible for internal security aboard the ship
* Hadrian challenges Tyrol as to whether Boomer may have left the hatch open. Remembering their meeting, in which she stated she had used the hatchway to avoid being seen on her way to him, Tyrol lies and states he has no idea
* He is then challenged to explain why his claim to have been in his bunk at the time of the bombing is disputed by three of his own crew, who put him in different places, doing different things at the time Doral was aboard
* When Hadrian accuses him of being a Cylon collaborator, Tyrol takes the [[Articles_of_Colonization|23rd Article of Colonisation]]
* Specialist Socinus is next on the stand, and when he realises his original statement has landed Tyrol in trouble, he changes his story: he actually left his post and went to the galley for food, using the companionway and hatch in question to get there
* When challenged about the hatch, he admits he was the one who left it open, thus accidentally providing the Cylon with the means to get to the explosives
* Hadrian still tries to involve Tyrol, demanding to know if he ordered Socinus to leave the hatch open. Socinus won’t be moved: he left the hatch open
* In sickbay, [[Baltar, Gaius|Baltar]] visits [[Thrace, Kara|Starbuck]], hoping to rekindle the attraction of their first card game (“Water”). She, however, is not in the mood. To get rid of him, she asks him about the bombing and whether he felt the Cylon was after his super secret project, which is located close to where the bomb went off
* This scares Baltar to the point where he leaves Starbuck alone, demanding to know from [[Number Six|Six]] as to why the Cylons are trying to kill him when he’s following her orders
* Six points out the Cylon were probably after the detector – and that anyway, the Cylons don’t know about her and Baltar
* With Socinus apparently the guilty party, Adama discusses the outcome of the inquiry with Roslin – when he is called before the board himself, where Hadrian comes close to building a picture of conspiracy rising all the way to Adama
* Realising things are out of hand, Adama calls a halt to things, confining Hadrian to her quarters and disbanding the board of inquiry
* Roslin holds a second conference, issuing Socinus’ name and stating he has been removed from duty and placed in the brig for dereliction of duty
* Hearing this, Tyrol goes to Adama to try and secure Socinus’ release. Instead, he is confronted by the truth: as a result of his carryings-on with Boomer, he has created a poor example of leadership & can’t actually say where Socinus was or what he was doing. Socinus will remain in the brig
* As a result, Tyrol meets with Boomer and ends their relationship. He then asks her if she left the suspect hatchway open the last time they met. She refuses to answer.

===On Caprica===
* [[Agathon, Karl C.|Helo]] sets out to find [[Valerii, Sharon|Valerii]]
* As a result of his decision, [[Number Six|Six]] gives Valerii a vicious beating to set her up for when he “finds” her
* Helo later discovers a lone Cylon warrior dragging a bound and apparently unconscious Valerii, whom he rescues

== Summary from scifi.com ==
When a new copy of Doral, a Cylon who had been previously exposed while serving as the Galactica's public-relations officer, sneaks aboard and blows himself up, killing three people, Commander Adama and President Roslin must finally make public the terrifying secret known only to a select few: Cylons now look like humans.

Adama also appoints an independent tribunal to investigate the recent security breaches and names Sgt. Hadrian as lead investigator. When Hadrian discovers a hatch was left open, even after Chief Tyrol had reported that all were closed, she focuses the investigation on him and his relationship with Sharon.

Tyrol's crew covers for their chief, taking the blame for his failure. When Hadrian tries to expand the inquiry, haranguing Adama about his decision not to reveal the truth about Cylons, the commander shuts down the tribunal.

Meanwhile, on Caprica, a trio of Cylons observe Helo as he tries to save himself and find the woman he thinks is Sharon.
--This section ©2005, [http://www.scifi.com SCI FI]. All rights reserved.

== Questions ==
*Was Baltar's lab really Doral's intended target? The is no clear evidence of this - only a comment passed by Starbuck & seized upon by Six
*If Baltar's lab wasn't the target, where was Doral heading? CIC?
*Why did Hadrian fixate on the Tyrol / Boomer relationship? This line of questioning was distinct from her attempts to expose Tyrol as a "Cylon conspirator"
*Will the "outing" of Doral and Conoy really make Cylon activities within the fleet that much more difficult? What of Six? Will it mean we'll see other models swing into action?
*Why is the concept of love so important to the Cylons?
**Cylons believe that "God is love".

== Analysis ==
This inspiring, character-driven story survives a potentially damaging television cliché: the over-zealous prosecuting investigator / officer / lawyer whose motives either go further than the need to get to the truth, or becomes so bound up with the letter of the law that he or she loses sight of the spirit of the law. As Hadrian pursued her investigation, it seemed "Litmus" was heading in the same direction.

However, While Sergeant Hadrian does turn out to be a somewhat clichéd prosecutor, it’s not down to melodramatics or poor writing. Rather, it is very evident that Ron Moore and David Eick opted to tread this path quite deliberately into order to avoid playing all of their cards at once, as the context of the investigation into Boomer and Tyrol could so easily have done. Instead they use the inquiry as window dressing, allowing the deeper truths to be revealed elsewhere and with greater effect, such as the confirmation that “love” is one of the driving forces being the Cylon actions on Caprica.

Like “Act of Contrition”, it is the rich layering and interweaving of individual storylines within this episode, coupled with the developing complexities of the dynamics between the various players, that lifts it from the realm of the potentially hum-drum to create some outstanding television drama.

Nowhere else is the interweaving better demonstrated than in the way the two major thrusts of the story – the investigation on ''Galactica'', and Helo’s situation on Caprica – are brought together as a seamless whole: a clever period of testing on so many levels. Hence the title of the episode: "Litmus", as in litmus tests:

*Tyrol's loyalty to Boomer as they come before Hadrian's tribunal
*Helo's loyalty (possible love) of Valerii (will he go north or south?) on Caprica
*The loyalties of Tyrol's crew - just how far are they prepared to go to cover for him (all the way to the brig, in Socinus' case)?
*Tyrol's ability to face up to his responsibilities as a senior NCO.

In the fleet – to use Tigh’s words – the cat is most certainly out of the bag. The people now know Cylons can perfectly imitate humans – but will this help or hinder the Colonials in their struggle to survive? Will it really make moving among the humans that much harder for the Cylons? The manipulation of paranoia is a powerful tool, and while the admission by Roslin may help increase levels of caution and alertness throughout the fleet, it leaves open the door for further, more subtle manipulations on the part of the Cylons. If nothing else, with any remaining Doral and Conoy models now having to go into hiding, will it lead to other models being revealed?

And what of the Cylons themselves? Do they really consider Baltar’s detector a threat? Indeed, was Baltar’s lab really Doral’s intended target? There is absolutely no proof of this within the episode: only Starbuck’s comment. True, it is something Six manipulated – possibly to confuse Baltar further and make him more susceptible to her demands – and it certainly allowed her to reinforce the (possible) lie that she is “unknown” to other Cylons in the fleet. But these points together do not confirm that Batlar’s laboratory was indeed the target. Given her attitude towards Baltar in recent episodes, a viewer may wonder if Starbuck raised the idea simply out of mischief, knowing it would rattle the good doctor.

Had the Cylons really wished to destroy Baltar’s work, they already had a far more efficient agent aboard the ship, one who could obtain the required explosives and deliver them directly to the lab, prime them to go off remotely and get out again without raising any suspicions: Sharon Valerii. Why resort to Doral? Is Baltar’s lab under that heavy a guard?

Certianly, Doral knows the layout of the ship well enough to reach the lab – but by the same mark, he knows the ship well enough to reach a number of potential targets, including CIC, so his exact goal is never a given.

Turning to Cylon activities on Caprica, once again it seems to be a need to understand – or perhaps experience true love is one of the goals behind their manipulation of Helo. Could it be that, for all their talk of God’s love, etc., “love” as an emotion / motivating force is something the Cylons have never really experienced, and that without it, they feel unable to fully connect with their God? True, they have had at least two affairs with humans – Six with Baltar, and Valerii with Tyrol – but again, both of these appear to be driven by physical desire rather than “true” love.

"Litmus" certainly reveals how "human" Cylons have become in other respects: Six is clearly jealous of Valerii's role in the scheme of things, and she clearly takes great delight in administering Valerii's beating. But was the savageness of the beating purely due to Six's jealousy towards Valerii, or could it also be “payback” for what happened to her “sister” when Valerii “rescued” Helo?

Returning to ''Galactica'' herself, one of the joys of this episode is seeing [[Aaron Douglas]] flex his acting muscle. Throughout the episode, Douglas plays his character with the right mix of strength, stubbornness, confusion, concern, respect, parental care and deep affection. In many ways he demonstrates that, after Adama, Tyrol is perhaps the most respected member of ''Galactica’s'' crew.

While the scene with the bootleg still was clearly contrived to further establish Tyrol’s standing in the eyes of his crew, it is played so well it works. Indeed, coupled with his reaction after the fire in the hanger pod during the mini, the “still scene” very much reinforces what we already know about Tyrol, so much so that the flag (“this guy is cool, his people will back him when he’s in trouble”) is only quietly waved in the background.

During his interrogation, Douglas is even more subtle in his approach. Taking a leaf from Olmos’ book, he lets his facial expressions do his talking for him, conveying the depth of Tyrol’s concern, resentment, suspicion (of both Hadrian and Valerii as Hadrian’s questions raise issues in his mind), anger and confusion.

But where Douglas shines the most is in his epilogue scene with Edward James Olmos. Here we have a further reverberation of another of BSG’s motifs: you reap what you sow. Tyrol goes to Adama to plead the case for Socinus, convinced he can persuade Adama – a man with whom he has a long-standing bond – to release the young Specialist. Instead, he’s confronted with the brutal truth: while he may be liked and respected by his crew, Tyrol’s own example of constantly slipping off to rendezvous with Boomer has undermined discipline on his decks. His actions have encouraged those under his command to do very much as he does: slip away when the urge calls. So what if Socinus wasn’t off getting laid by a senior officer? His dereliction of duty resulted – as far as Adama is concerned - in the deaths of four men.

And this is where we see the other edge of the sword: Tyrol knows full well that Boomer used the same accessway as Socinus; she may have been just as responsible for leaving the hatch open as the Specialist. But to admit as much to Adama would do as much harm as good: it may secure Socinus’ release - but it would bring the full weight of Adama’s suspicion down on Valerii. And without further proof, it is evident this is not something Tyrol is willing to risk – for now. But the wheels are turning: as evidenced in his final question to Boomer.

[[Edward James Olmos]] also reinforces his stature as the central figure in this series. In closing down Hadrian’s inquisition, Adama again demonstrates his strength of character, that he can command words as effectively as he can the men and women under his authority. It is his physical presence, coupled with the quiet voice of authority that brings the investigation to a close without the need for any overt show of command or position on his part. Adama calls the Inquiry a "witch-hunt," referencing the notorious Salem witch trials of the early North American colonies of 17th Century Great Britain. This expression is strange in that the Twelve Colonies does not necessarily share the history of "Earth" as viewers know it. However, it is typical for democratic societies to know when justice is fair and when it is not. While the origin of the actual term in Colonial history is specious, its meaning is not. The concepts of democracy and citizen's rights are sufficiently evident in what we have learned of the [[Articles of Colonization]], suggesting that one or more of the Colonies has had a unjust inquisition of sorts in their past that required justice be restored.

The other player that deserves extra special mention in this episode is again [[James Callis]]. The viewer cannot help but further admire him in his portrayal of Gaius Baltar – and full marks to the director of this segment for some beautiful use of the camera. Baltar may only be on-screen for around 5 minutes – but what a five minutes! Starting with his obvious attempt at flirting with Starbuck, Callis’ performance as Baltar is stunning. From sexual cockiness through to concern, worry and then panic at the thought the Cylons were after him, Baltar runs his own gamut of emotions – and draws the audience along with him.
Full marks too, for the way in which Baltar’s conversation with Six is shown as they progress down the corridor, swapping between the two of them walking hand-in-hand, to shots of Baltar on his own and holding a one-sided conversation with himself!

== Notes ==

*Some 24 hours have passed since the events of [[You Can’t Go Home Again]]
*There was at least one additional Doral in the fleet
*Underground activities are beginning to take place on ''Galactica'' – as shown by the creation of the still
*Baltar’s Six claims not to be in contact with other Cylons in the fleet, but it is far from clear as to whether she is speaking the truth
*Adama’s father was a civil liberties lawyer on Caprica
*Adama has a hobby: constructing large models of sailing vessels
*Baltar is now actively working on his Cylon detector
*Civilians routinely pass through the ''Galactica''

== Noteworthy Dialogue ==

Adama, to Sergeant Hadrian and her Board of Inquiry:

Adama: You’ve lost your way, Sergeant. You’ve lost sight of the purpose of the law: to protect its citizens, not persecute them. Whatever we are, whatever’s left of us – we’re better than that. Now these proceedings are closed. You’ll be transported back to your ships and we appreciate your help. 
Board Chair: This is an independent board. You have no power to close our inquiries. 
Adama: This is a witch-hunt. I will not have it aboard my ship.

Adama to Tyrol, after Socinus has been incarcerated:

Adama: What I can’t do is I can’t let someone who wears this uniform get up on the witness stand and lie under oath. And that’s what your man did. He either lied the first time or he lied the second time. And it doesn’t matter. He’s guilty, and he’ll pay the price. You? You’ll pay a different price. You’ll have to walk out on that hanger every day knowing that one of your men is in the brig because you couldn’t keep your fly zipped. You are the most experienced non-commissioned officer we have left. You keep my planes flying. I need my planes to fly.

== Official Statements ==




* ''"Major question: it looks like discipline hasn't really improved on the ship in the first few episodes. In some ways, it's getting worse. [[Adama, William|Adama]] didn't help matters at all in "Litmus" when he essentially declared himself to be above the law. "''

:Security and discipline are definitely problems on ''[[Galactica]]'' and they're not going away. The ship was far from the best of the best at the time of its retirement and the people on board weren't either. The discipline was lax and many procedures had been allowed to fall by the wayside. Now, this ship and its crew are forced to operate far above what they considered to be the norm and it's not an easy transition for any of them.

:This was a deliberate creative choice. It's one thing for the finest ship, with the finest crew to deal with the end of the world and a long flight from a relentless enemy, it's quite another when you were just a bunch of people trying to get by. I find it a more challenging and interesting environment to tell stories in and I find these people more heroic in their actions just by the nature of the obstacles they have to overcome in their day to day existence.

== Statistics ==



=== Guest Stars ===


*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Jill+Teed Jill Teed] as [[Sergeant Hadrian]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Donnelly+Rhodes Donnelly Rhodes] as [[Doctor Cottle]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Dominic+Zamprogna Dominic Zamprogna] as [[Jammer]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Alonso+Oyarzun Alonso Oyarzun] as [[Socinus]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Nicki+Clyne Nicki Clyne] as [[Cally]]
*[[Olmos, Bodie|Bodie Olmos]] as [[Hot Dog]]
*[[Bennett, Matthew|Matthew Bennett]] as [[Doral]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Nimet+Kanji Nimet Kanji] as [[Candace Myson]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Christina+Schild Christina Schild] as [[Playa Kohn]]
*[[Gugushe, Biski|Biski Gugushe]] as [[Eick]]
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Raahul+Singh Raahul Singh] as Kimmit
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Shaw+Madson Shaw Madson] as Marine Corporal
*[http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Morris+Chapdelaine Morris Chapdelaine] as reporter #2



=== Writing & Direction ===

*Written by [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Jeff+Vlaming Jeff Vlaming]
*Directed by [http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?+Rod+Hardy Rod Hardy]




=== Production Notes ===
*Series 1 (2004 / 2005)
*Production Number: 1.06
*Airdate Order: 6 (of 13)

=== First Run Air Dates & Releases ===

*UK Airdate: 22 November 2004 (Sky One)
*US Airdate: 11 February 2005 (Sci-Fi Channel)
*DVD Release: 28 March 2005 (UK)

== External Links ==
[http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season01/106/ "Litmus"] at scifi.com

{{Episode List}}

[[Category:A to Z]]
[[Category:Episode Guide (RDM)]]
[[Category:RDM]]

Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy

2005-09-03T20:16:05Z

Adedward: /* What is a spoiler? */

== Complaints and Concerns ==

I hate the spoiler policy. I don't want to be spoiled. I won't be using or contributing to the site significantly until after the end of the season and before you start spoiling season 3.

Character summaries in particular should be free of spoilers like "died in tbe episode Scattered," (before it aired), especially when the character doesn't die in Scattered after all when it finally airs.

Socinus lives!

-MHall

: I personally go by group consensus. If the consensus is that spoiler information is used, then that's the consensus; if it is vice-versa, then spoiler information isn't used (or packaged so as not to spoil the casual reader). As we're an '''information resource and episode guide''', spoilers are a necessary evil. Some of the spoiler information changes from script to shooting, hence the inaccurate statement of Socinus' death in "Scattered"; it doesn't preclude him dying later on due to his injuries, so he may still die this season.

: For instance, I noted that details often change from the initial script to the final shooting. Permit me to use Boomer as an example: her being a human Cylon was never in the previous versions of the mini-series script, but changed -- indirectly -- after one of Ron Moore's friends made a quip about there not being a "By your command" line in the script. (That information came from the mini-series DVD commentary track.) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:41, 17 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Actually, I think that there is no way of making a spoiler-free version for everybody and making it work, too - because some country will always be the last to air the show, and by then, parts of the rest of the world will have forgotten about it already.

There is however one exception: There should really be no spoilers for shows that have not even aired, or at least not anywhere but that episode's summary. Otherwise, there is really no way one can enjoy this wiki ''and'' the show. (Happened for me with Home II.) I would even go as far as extending the no-spoilers for not-yet-aired shows for 24 hrs after the show, again, with the exception of the episodes's page. Because, let's fact it, lots of people will use P2P to see the show, because otherwise it would be years until they get to see it. (And if they are unlucky, they would have to see a synchronised version, too.) So the latter suggestion would enable them to look up things here while not having to wait for the show to arrive.

And one final thing: Spoiling from the scripts does not even make much sense - as the first poster on this page points out; and the audio comments imply the same. So my guess would be that spoiling not-yet aired shows will put off users from using this site, which is hardly a good thing, and it doesn't make much sense in the first place to do so, because the scripts will not air the way they were written, anyway. So I really would suggest a No spoilers for unaired shows policy. -- [[User:Still not king|Still not king]] 12:32, 28 August 2005 (EDT)

::I agree. We gain very little by jumping the gun on upcoming episode spoilers - for example, I didn't need to know that spoileriffic note on the episode summary for [[Resurrection Ship]] at all. There's no reason not to be patient with these things. I do not agree, however, with a 24 hour injunction against posting episode details - we should be able to start wiki-ing as soon as it airs in our respective timezones. If we want to stay spoiler free on the west coast, we can always just not log on during the three hour window. Likewise, when the brits start getting Season 2, Part II before we do, we shouldn't force ourselves to wait for the U.S. airings. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:45, 28 August 2005 (EDT)

:::I was intentionally proposing ''just'' 24 hours - that is what it might take to get to see the show if you have to get it by P2P, and in the meantime, one might still want to check out something -- not the episode summary, of course, but a plain page about a character. It's a minor part of my proposal, though -- the important one is No spoilers of unaired shows. -- [[User:Still not king|Still not king]] 20:13, 28 August 2005 (EDT)

::::I really like the idea of not posting regarding unaired shows. There's no way to avoid spoilers for shows that have aired already, but the show doesn't really exist until it's aired, in a way (insofar that it might be changed). I also really like the idea of a 24-hour wait period after the first (and thus, British, right?) air time. A day isn't that long, really, and I'm not sure about anyone else, but these episodes make my mind race and I'd probably be too excited if I went straight from the sofa to the computer after watching. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:35, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

:::::One of the nice things about the wiki system is that if you post something innacurate or overzealous, someone else can come along and tone it down a bit. I'm starting a vote. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:03, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

:This is rediculous. You come onto a site that has a quite obvious spoiler policy on the front fage, you go to read about upcoming episodes, and then you cry about being spoiled. Gee, obviously the best way to solve this is to stop people from posting new information. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 08:51, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:The whole debate is a bit odd to me. "Spoilers" by definition have to do with un-aired episodes, and anything written about un-aired episodes is, by definition, speculation. That speculation may be more informed or less, but it's still just that, ''speculation''. You have to watch the episode to find out what actually happens. If anything maybe there should be a reminder on un-aired ep pages that the information may or may not be accurate. Back in the day, there was another sci-fi show, "Babylon 5" which had/has a website much like this one - "The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5." The Lurker's Guide, while being an accurate and detailed guide to the show, was also a haven for every kind of spoilage and speculation imaginable, which I and many others found only enhanced our enjoyment of the show. --[[User:Astarte|Astarte]] 05:22, 3 September 2005 (EDT)

::I was also a fan of the lurker's guide. I think an important difference here is that the production staff of B5 (ie, JMS) were very tight-lipped and conscious of avoiding big spoilers. The staff of the Re-imagined series have been much looser, and credible spoilers for various production details have been leaked far and wide throughout the first half of the second season. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:25, 3 September 2005 (EDT)

== Spoiler Warning ==

How about episode pages that have not been aired yet get a spoiler tag, so that people that can contribute to them knowing full well that they'll likely be spoiled? Same can be done with character and event pages, so that information introduced to them from episodes not yet aired can also be used on this Wiki without fear of spoiling those that do not wish it. Thoughts?-- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:39, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:I'm afraid it wouldn't do me much good, since I read the diffs on everything on the recent edits page anyway. Maybe we could allow spoilers on episode summary pages but discourage them elsewhere? Avoiding the episode summaries isn't very hard. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:11, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I found this problem with the Pegasus ep and related data. I wanted to keep the Fall of the Twelve Colonies page accurate with what we knew about surviving Battlestars, but this is still a spoiler, so the data there is left a bit vague unless someone digs for it. Still, a spoiler is a spoiler. The talk page would satisfy both spoiler-hunter and seeker on an episode article. We'd just need to add a "Spoiler" topic there, and note to people that if you are going to see an episode page for a show that hasn't aired, you are asking for it, literally. At least the talk page has an extra layer for avoiders to have, but because of the nature of this wiki, eliminating spoilers takes away a lot of the research fun. Data's gotta go somewhere and we can't commit the juicy bits for the main page to memory until the ep is aired. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:40, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

::This is going to be awkward, but I feel like we should add this as an option in the vote. Also adding a note on approval voting. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:53, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:::I dislike the thought of having to move massive amounts of text. So far, I've been avoiding pages to do with unaired episodes. That's easy enough. My main concern is someone clicking through and wondering, "Who the ''heck'' is Gina?", thinking it's some pilot who's name they missed or some small character. Then they read about an episode they didn't want to. Or, in another case, someone reading all about Lee and the information going on, at the end, past the most recent episode. I think keeping character pages clear is the better idea. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:01, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

=== Subpage? ===

How about comitting spoilers to a subpage of an article? For instance, [[Pegasus (episode)]] would have a subpage called [[Pegasus (episode)/Spoilers]]? I believe that would be fairly straight forward, given the title of the subpage. :-)

Then, after the episode airs, we can simply merge the contents together from the spoiler page into the main page of the article in question. Just my view. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:48, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:This sounds like a lot of work. I actually agree with Spencerian that anyone who clicks on the episode page for an unaired episode is explicitly asking for it. Additionally, those are easy edits to avoid reading. I'm going to go and complicate things now... --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:53, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:: It does, but my intent was to just throw this out there to see what everyone else thought. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:01, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:::See my note above for my thoughts on having to merge things. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:01, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

== What is a spoiler? ==
In response to Day's query below ("So what constitutes a spoiler for this new voting catagory?"): I believe a spoiler is anything from an as-yet-unaired show. Examples: Lucy Lawless's character, Cain, Gina, etc. I think the revelation about Boomer is fair game, as that was the end of the Mini-Series. It's hard to escape that fact when most press articles now refer to her as a Cylon. For the purposes of my argument and vote, a "spoiler" is any information that has not yet been broadcast. Is that a fair assessment? -- [[User:Ryq|ryq]] 16:40, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:I concur with this definition. I just thought it would pay to be absolutely clear. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:56, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:What about various countries using this page? What an Australian considers a spoiler may already be known via broadcast in the states. Using this logic, spoiler pages could end up lasting for literally months after an original broadcast. --[[User:adedward|Adedward]] 16:15, 3 September 2005 (EDT)

==Vote==

Vote for as many options as you agree with. Voting method is [[Wikipedia:Approval Voting|approval voting]] - place your name under every policy which would be acceptable to you; the policy acceptable to the most users wins.

Spoilers in this vote refer to details of unaired episodes. As an encyclopedia, cataloging information from already aired episodes is what we do, and is not in question.

===All spoilers permitted (current policy)===
# [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 08:47, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 21:38, 1 September 2005 (EDT) This a reference, let's act like it. If we have reliable information, share it with others.
# --[[User:Astarte|Astarte]] 04:50, 3 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:adedward|Adedward]] 04:11pm, 3 September 2005 (EDT)

===No spoilers except for episode pages===
# --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:53, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
# --Zareck Rocks 15:00, 31 August 2005 (EDT)--
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:57, 1 September 2005 (EDT) (I'm apparently being convinced).
# --[[User:Dawn|Dawn]] 02:16, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Cp.hayes|cp.hayes]] 19:55, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

===No spoilers except for episode talk pages===
# --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:35, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (To compromise, make the episode's TALK page fair game for spoiler data.)
# --[[User:Ryq|ryq]] 19:40, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (I agree with Spencerian's addendum)

===No spoilers until after first episode airdate===
# --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:33, 29 August 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:cp.hayes|cp.hayes]] 22:49, 29 August 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:35, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (To compromise, make the episode's TALK page fair game for spoiler data.)
# --[[User:Ryq|ryq]] 19:40, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (I agree with Spencerian's addendum)
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 22:45, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (So what constitutes a spoiler for this new voting catagory? Does this mean in the Mini-Series episode article, we have to take out the revelation about Boomer's heritage and move it to the talk page? Or does this new thing mean that information about unaired episodes goes on their talk pages until they've aired (or 24 hours after) when we can then move it to the main page? This new thing confuses me, which I think is apparent.)
# [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:06, 1 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Dawn|Dawn]] 02:15, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

===No spoilers until after first episode airdate + 24 hours===
# --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:19, 30 August 2005 (EDT)
# [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:06, 1 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Dawn|Dawn]] 02:15, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy

2005-09-03T20:11:34Z

Adedward: /* All spoilers permitted (current policy) */

== Complaints and Concerns ==

I hate the spoiler policy. I don't want to be spoiled. I won't be using or contributing to the site significantly until after the end of the season and before you start spoiling season 3.

Character summaries in particular should be free of spoilers like "died in tbe episode Scattered," (before it aired), especially when the character doesn't die in Scattered after all when it finally airs.

Socinus lives!

-MHall

: I personally go by group consensus. If the consensus is that spoiler information is used, then that's the consensus; if it is vice-versa, then spoiler information isn't used (or packaged so as not to spoil the casual reader). As we're an '''information resource and episode guide''', spoilers are a necessary evil. Some of the spoiler information changes from script to shooting, hence the inaccurate statement of Socinus' death in "Scattered"; it doesn't preclude him dying later on due to his injuries, so he may still die this season.

: For instance, I noted that details often change from the initial script to the final shooting. Permit me to use Boomer as an example: her being a human Cylon was never in the previous versions of the mini-series script, but changed -- indirectly -- after one of Ron Moore's friends made a quip about there not being a "By your command" line in the script. (That information came from the mini-series DVD commentary track.) -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:41, 17 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Actually, I think that there is no way of making a spoiler-free version for everybody and making it work, too - because some country will always be the last to air the show, and by then, parts of the rest of the world will have forgotten about it already.

There is however one exception: There should really be no spoilers for shows that have not even aired, or at least not anywhere but that episode's summary. Otherwise, there is really no way one can enjoy this wiki ''and'' the show. (Happened for me with Home II.) I would even go as far as extending the no-spoilers for not-yet-aired shows for 24 hrs after the show, again, with the exception of the episodes's page. Because, let's fact it, lots of people will use P2P to see the show, because otherwise it would be years until they get to see it. (And if they are unlucky, they would have to see a synchronised version, too.) So the latter suggestion would enable them to look up things here while not having to wait for the show to arrive.

And one final thing: Spoiling from the scripts does not even make much sense - as the first poster on this page points out; and the audio comments imply the same. So my guess would be that spoiling not-yet aired shows will put off users from using this site, which is hardly a good thing, and it doesn't make much sense in the first place to do so, because the scripts will not air the way they were written, anyway. So I really would suggest a No spoilers for unaired shows policy. -- [[User:Still not king|Still not king]] 12:32, 28 August 2005 (EDT)

::I agree. We gain very little by jumping the gun on upcoming episode spoilers - for example, I didn't need to know that spoileriffic note on the episode summary for [[Resurrection Ship]] at all. There's no reason not to be patient with these things. I do not agree, however, with a 24 hour injunction against posting episode details - we should be able to start wiki-ing as soon as it airs in our respective timezones. If we want to stay spoiler free on the west coast, we can always just not log on during the three hour window. Likewise, when the brits start getting Season 2, Part II before we do, we shouldn't force ourselves to wait for the U.S. airings. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:45, 28 August 2005 (EDT)

:::I was intentionally proposing ''just'' 24 hours - that is what it might take to get to see the show if you have to get it by P2P, and in the meantime, one might still want to check out something -- not the episode summary, of course, but a plain page about a character. It's a minor part of my proposal, though -- the important one is No spoilers of unaired shows. -- [[User:Still not king|Still not king]] 20:13, 28 August 2005 (EDT)

::::I really like the idea of not posting regarding unaired shows. There's no way to avoid spoilers for shows that have aired already, but the show doesn't really exist until it's aired, in a way (insofar that it might be changed). I also really like the idea of a 24-hour wait period after the first (and thus, British, right?) air time. A day isn't that long, really, and I'm not sure about anyone else, but these episodes make my mind race and I'd probably be too excited if I went straight from the sofa to the computer after watching. --[[User:Day|Day]] 14:35, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

:::::One of the nice things about the wiki system is that if you post something innacurate or overzealous, someone else can come along and tone it down a bit. I'm starting a vote. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:03, 29 August 2005 (EDT)

:This is rediculous. You come onto a site that has a quite obvious spoiler policy on the front fage, you go to read about upcoming episodes, and then you cry about being spoiled. Gee, obviously the best way to solve this is to stop people from posting new information. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 08:51, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:The whole debate is a bit odd to me. "Spoilers" by definition have to do with un-aired episodes, and anything written about un-aired episodes is, by definition, speculation. That speculation may be more informed or less, but it's still just that, ''speculation''. You have to watch the episode to find out what actually happens. If anything maybe there should be a reminder on un-aired ep pages that the information may or may not be accurate. Back in the day, there was another sci-fi show, "Babylon 5" which had/has a website much like this one - "The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5." The Lurker's Guide, while being an accurate and detailed guide to the show, was also a haven for every kind of spoilage and speculation imaginable, which I and many others found only enhanced our enjoyment of the show. --[[User:Astarte|Astarte]] 05:22, 3 September 2005 (EDT)

::I was also a fan of the lurker's guide. I think an important difference here is that the production staff of B5 (ie, JMS) were very tight-lipped and conscious of avoiding big spoilers. The staff of the Re-imagined series have been much looser, and credible spoilers for various production details have been leaked far and wide throughout the first half of the second season. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 13:25, 3 September 2005 (EDT)

== Spoiler Warning ==

How about episode pages that have not been aired yet get a spoiler tag, so that people that can contribute to them knowing full well that they'll likely be spoiled? Same can be done with character and event pages, so that information introduced to them from episodes not yet aired can also be used on this Wiki without fear of spoiling those that do not wish it. Thoughts?-- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 09:39, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:I'm afraid it wouldn't do me much good, since I read the diffs on everything on the recent edits page anyway. Maybe we could allow spoilers on episode summary pages but discourage them elsewhere? Avoiding the episode summaries isn't very hard. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:11, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

I found this problem with the Pegasus ep and related data. I wanted to keep the Fall of the Twelve Colonies page accurate with what we knew about surviving Battlestars, but this is still a spoiler, so the data there is left a bit vague unless someone digs for it. Still, a spoiler is a spoiler. The talk page would satisfy both spoiler-hunter and seeker on an episode article. We'd just need to add a "Spoiler" topic there, and note to people that if you are going to see an episode page for a show that hasn't aired, you are asking for it, literally. At least the talk page has an extra layer for avoiders to have, but because of the nature of this wiki, eliminating spoilers takes away a lot of the research fun. Data's gotta go somewhere and we can't commit the juicy bits for the main page to memory until the ep is aired. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:40, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

::This is going to be awkward, but I feel like we should add this as an option in the vote. Also adding a note on approval voting. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:53, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:::I dislike the thought of having to move massive amounts of text. So far, I've been avoiding pages to do with unaired episodes. That's easy enough. My main concern is someone clicking through and wondering, "Who the ''heck'' is Gina?", thinking it's some pilot who's name they missed or some small character. Then they read about an episode they didn't want to. Or, in another case, someone reading all about Lee and the information going on, at the end, past the most recent episode. I think keeping character pages clear is the better idea. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:01, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

=== Subpage? ===

How about comitting spoilers to a subpage of an article? For instance, [[Pegasus (episode)]] would have a subpage called [[Pegasus (episode)/Spoilers]]? I believe that would be fairly straight forward, given the title of the subpage. :-)

Then, after the episode airs, we can simply merge the contents together from the spoiler page into the main page of the article in question. Just my view. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 12:48, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:This sounds like a lot of work. I actually agree with Spencerian that anyone who clicks on the episode page for an unaired episode is explicitly asking for it. Additionally, those are easy edits to avoid reading. I'm going to go and complicate things now... --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:53, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:: It does, but my intent was to just throw this out there to see what everyone else thought. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:01, 31 August 2005 (EDT)

:::See my note above for my thoughts on having to merge things. --[[User:Day|Day]] 17:01, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

== What is a spoiler? ==
In response to Day's query below ("So what constitutes a spoiler for this new voting catagory?"): I believe a spoiler is anything from an as-yet-unaired show. Examples: Lucy Lawless's character, Cain, Gina, etc. I think the revelation about Boomer is fair game, as that was the end of the Mini-Series. It's hard to escape that fact when most press articles now refer to her as a Cylon. For the purposes of my argument and vote, a "spoiler" is any information that has not yet been broadcast. Is that a fair assessment? -- [[User:Ryq|ryq]] 16:40, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

:I concur with this definition. I just thought it would pay to be absolutely clear. --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:56, 1 September 2005 (EDT)

==Vote==

Vote for as many options as you agree with. Voting method is [[Wikipedia:Approval Voting|approval voting]] - place your name under every policy which would be acceptable to you; the policy acceptable to the most users wins.

Spoilers in this vote refer to details of unaired episodes. As an encyclopedia, cataloging information from already aired episodes is what we do, and is not in question.

===All spoilers permitted (current policy)===
# [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 08:47, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Wingsandsword|Wingsandsword]] 21:38, 1 September 2005 (EDT) This a reference, let's act like it. If we have reliable information, share it with others.
# --[[User:Astarte|Astarte]] 04:50, 3 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:adedward|Adedward]] 04:11pm, 3 September 2005 (EDT)

===No spoilers except for episode pages===
# --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 12:53, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 13:04, 31 August 2005 (EDT)
# --Zareck Rocks 15:00, 31 August 2005 (EDT)--
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:57, 1 September 2005 (EDT) (I'm apparently being convinced).
# --[[User:Dawn|Dawn]] 02:16, 2 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Cp.hayes|cp.hayes]] 19:55, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

===No spoilers except for episode talk pages===
# --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:35, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (To compromise, make the episode's TALK page fair game for spoiler data.)
# --[[User:Ryq|ryq]] 19:40, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (I agree with Spencerian's addendum)

===No spoilers until after first episode airdate===
# --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:33, 29 August 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:cp.hayes|cp.hayes]] 22:49, 29 August 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:35, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (To compromise, make the episode's TALK page fair game for spoiler data.)
# --[[User:Ryq|ryq]] 19:40, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (I agree with Spencerian's addendum)
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 22:45, 31 August 2005 (EDT) (So what constitutes a spoiler for this new voting catagory? Does this mean in the Mini-Series episode article, we have to take out the revelation about Boomer's heritage and move it to the talk page? Or does this new thing mean that information about unaired episodes goes on their talk pages until they've aired (or 24 hours after) when we can then move it to the main page? This new thing confuses me, which I think is apparent.)
# [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:06, 1 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Dawn|Dawn]] 02:15, 2 September 2005 (EDT)

===No spoilers until after first episode airdate + 24 hours===
# --[[User:QuintusCinna|QuintusCinna]]
# --[[User:Day|Day]] 00:19, 30 August 2005 (EDT)
# [[User:Philwelch|Philwelch]] 22:06, 1 September 2005 (EDT)
# --[[User:Dawn|Dawn]] 02:15, 2 September 2005 (EDT)