Battlestar Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Number Six/Archive 1

2006-10-05T16:27:54Z

Acitcratna: /* Greek Astrology with personality types */

==Another Number Six==

Wasn't there another Number Six encountered and killed by Starbuck in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]? --[[User:Blacklight|Blacklight]]

:There are many copies, of course, and because they are identical, it is impossible to know if a specific copy was killed. Six is everywhere! Best to mention the copy only when they do something distinctive or have a specific identity in an episode, such as Godfrey and Gina, or Baltar's Six. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:43, 1 October 2005 (EDT)

:Actually that was one of the "standard" "Caprican Overseer Models" as evidenced by her black jacket. ---Ricimer, 10 October, 2005

==Notes move==
Spencerian - I put the notes back in their old position based on the conversation Day and I had at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters/Archive01#Layout in Humano-Cylon Articles]]. As I said there, there are many cases where notes, points of analysis, etc. may be applicable only to individual copies of a particular humano-cylon, or to the entire model line. If you disagree, please re-open the conversation on the [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters|Characters talk page]].--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:48, 10 October 2005 (EDT)

:Done. See the page. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:14, 10 October 2005 (EDT)

==The Many Deaths of Six==
Just having some fun on the talk page here; but it's fun to think of just how many times and ways Six has died (after seeing the part that said "copies have been destroyed in several episodes).
Number Six has been killed by methods including:
*Blown up by a Basestar that attacked Armistice Station.
*By broken glass from windows exploding inwards from the shockwave of a distant nuclear blast.
*Shot in the back by another humanoid Cylon, Caprica-Sharon.
*Pushed off of a ledge and impaled on debris by Starbuck.
*Brained over the head with a fire extinguisher by Starbuck. (not necessarily causing death)
*Vaporized by a detonating nuclear bomb she was sitting right next to.

To quote Third Rock From The Sun, "We just kept hitting it, and hitting it, but it ''just wouldn't die!''". --Ricimer, 10 October, 2005

: Was Six killed on the Arrow, or was she impaled on debris on the floor where they landed? I'm pretty sure it was NOT the Arrow...worth looking again. We don't know that the "extinguished" Six was killed, but she was certainly knocked out. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:26, 11 October 2005 (EDT)

:: She was not killed by the arrow at all. If you go back and look at the season finale, you will see that Six had a marine style "Ka-Bar" knife sticking out of her torso. IIRC, starbuck actually has the arrow in her hand. --Shogunmoon 12:45, 4 November 2005 (EST)

The Leobon and Doral general articles had the Death line filled. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:11, 7 march 2006 (EST)

== Baltar's Six ==

This is admittedly farfetched, but might it be possible that both Baltar and Caprica Six uploaded, at least partially, into each other's brain? In the series, it has been repeatedly stated that Cylon and Human physiology are nearly identical until you get down to the cells. Though Cylons have silica pathways in their brains, it might be possible they still store memories chemically (perhaps only digitizing them upon upload), using these pathways only for the digital transference of memory. So, if memories of both species are stored the same, then the very method of transmission Caprica Six used to upload her consciousness might have inadvertently brought along a bit of Gaius, while transmitting a bit of her into ''his'' mind. The cause for this transference might well be the nuclear blast that she blocked with her body. Adding plausibility to this theory is the fact that this time period is still vague, as well, as nothing is shown of how exactly her shielding of Baltar saved him so completely, that he emerges dazed but relatively intact near the raptor piloted by Sharon. Crazy sounding, I know, but I'd love to hear the other theories out there.
-- [[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 23:47, 12 March 2006 (CST)

That's actually possible- there's one flaw, though: if parts of themselves were uploaded into the other, why don't they behave like the originals? Baltar-Six behaves nothing like Caprica-Six, and her Baltar is fairly different from the original. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 08:01, 13 March 2006 (EST)

Good point. My only explanation would be that the entire personality didn't get uploaded. Perhaps only a portion, with certain key information or memories from the real Baltar and Six, that becomes incorporated into the subconcious and becomes a sort of Freudian gateway to their own inner doubts and fears. Granted, this becomes rather convoluted, but it still remains the only way I can see for ''both'' of them to be having this phenomenom without either of them knowing how or why. --[[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 17:03, 13 March 2006 (CST)

I guess you're right- unless they descide to twist this into a Count Iblis/Ship of Lights arc, and Six is actually a demoness (would that make Baltar the angel?). I'm sorry to sound if I keep trying to burst your ballon, but why wouldn't Six have figured out that's how Gaius got in her head? She would probably know a fair amount the process if she intended to employ it. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 07:39, 14 March 2006 (EST)

About shielding Baltar - I think perhaps the blast was quite far away, and she merely shielded him from the shattering glass of his windows. If this is the case, the circumstances of caprica-six's "death" are still wide open. --[[User:Mitchy|Mitchy]] 15:24, 14 March 2006 (CST)

This could lead us to a major debate: the glass was part of it, but so was the shockwave. Because Six has at least twice the strength of a normal human, she prevented Baltar from being thrown thrown through the wall and killed. The real mystery is what happened to her body... we should move this to the "Caprica-Six" talk page. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 17:18, 14 March 2006 (EST)

One last note: so far as why she wouldn't know about it if she was the one who employed the method, I don't think she meant for it to happen, which is why she is so confused as well. Also, going to the blast, she seemed to have died instantly in the blast judging by her reaction at rebirth. If she were killed like that, how did she manage to stay upright to shield Baltar, anyway? And a shockwave of that force...I'm not a nuclear scientist, but wouldn't it still carry considerable radiation? The whole sequence is one of the most puzzling to me, so far...and I still believe that is the precise moment when this swapping of pseudo-personalities occurred.--[[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 00:34, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Well, it's definetly the most likely theory we've got so far. Again, we've got missing information (how far from Caprica City was Baltar's house, was is even near Caprica City? that might not have been a nuclear shockwave- even if it was, depending on distance, radiation would be negligible. Anyway, I think they want us to focus more on the question, "What the hell is Baltar-Six?" than "How EXACTLY did Caprica-Six die?" my policy is, if the actor doesn't obsess about it, fans shouldn't loss sleep over it. (Though making us wait till October is just plain sadistic- I'll have to move back to Britain this summer and see if SkyOne's airing them sooner...) :-P [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 07:43, 15 March 2006 (EST)

== Natasi? ==

I've heard that "Natasi" is the name used in the mini-series novilization. However has the name been used anywhere else other than that? If so, we should be careful in the name's use... Otherwise I would make a note of it in the "Notes" section, but wouldn't introduce the name into the main article... Comments, questions or concerns anyone? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:04, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:The fact that somebody had to comment on how it was pronounced ("Carver stated that he pronounces "Natasi" as "Nuh-TAH-see", though fans could really pronounce it any way they want.") would lead me to believe that it hadn't been spoken onscreen. Otherwise, it would be pretty evident. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:13, 9 December 2005 (EST)

::I'm the one that originally reported this here (I asked the question on GalacticaStation), and ''I'' don't think we should put it EVERYWHERE. All I wanted was a little footnote at the end of the "Baltar's original Six" entry. I don't think it should be casually used to refer to her; it's just a fun anecdote. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:09, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::I don't mind using it where relevant (and cited), as long as nothing contradicts it. It stands to reason that Baltar didn't spend two years calling her "Hey you, with the platinum hair in the miniskirt." I wonder if "Epiphanies" will shed any light on this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::: I always figured he called her Sex-Bot 9000. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:03, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::According to James Callis in his Sci-Fi Magazine interview, what Baltar was initially calling her was something more like "Oh, gods! Oh...gods! Oh! My! GODS!" Seriously, however, since it appears in an official novelization, we could allow it, with suitable caveat that this is not aired content. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:10, 9 December 2005 (EST)

Merv, please explain your objection to this. I see no problem with the use of that term until it's explicitly contracted on-screen. Is this the case as of "Downloaded"? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:27, 24 February 2006 (EST)
:....I...did say, in the summary box on the dit; sorry, communication must remain short; just doing in im bursts at commercials more later.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:35, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::Kuralyov is explaining the situation to me on [[Talk:Caprica Six]].

==Gina's Rank on Pegasus==
Wouldn't it be fair to say that if Gina was eating in the same mess as Cain, that she was an officer? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:27, 7 January 2006 (EST)

:I got the idea that it was a communal mess that everyone ate in. Cain would have probably eaten with the crew to improve the loyalty and comraderie between herself and the crew. Gina was probably just a civilian draftee like [[Laird]] that probably lied her way onto the Pegasus, claiming to have skills good enough to get her off the doomed ship that she used to be on. But then again, if Gina was an officer on Pegasus, that would make the betrayal even deeper, leading to her extremely harsh punishment.--Ltcrashdown 02:32, 7 January 2006 (EST)
::According to the spoilers released before the episode, she was a civilian dockworker. The same spoilers mentioned Pegasus' unhooked computers as the reason it escaped the virus. Since that information is purported to be in the full-length Pegasus episode on the upcoming full-Season Two DVD, Gina's status may be on the DVD as well.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:07, 5 April 2006 (EST)

== Sara? ==

I am going back over the episodes to scan them for this, but I distinctly remember Baltar referring to Number Six as "Sara", and it appears clearly in the closed captioning/subtitles. Has anyone else caught this? --[[User:ThesposAZ|ThesposAZ]] 16:47, 15 January 2006 (EST)

:When? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:06, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::It's in Home, Part II, when Baltar's Six is telling him he's crazy. Right after she explains he created her when his mind snapped over the guilt of helping the Cylons massacre humanity. According to the subtitles, he replies, "Well, I don't know what game you're playing anymore. But I'm not playing this stupid game, Sara. Now you've had your fun." However, I don't think the subtitles are right. His mouth moves slightly into shadow during "Sara" but it looks and sounds more like he says "...this stupid game, so, uh, now you've had your fun". [[User:Emrys|Emrys]] 00:24, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

== Shelly Godfrey ==

According to http://german.about.com/library/blvornamen05.htm the name "Godfrey" is listed as English related to Old German "Gottfried", meaning "God's peace". I wasn't certain how acceptible this was as a source, so I didn't make an edit, but I thought I would at least leave an answer for the Citation Jihad. --[[User:Corvus|Corvus]] 07:26, 26 January 2006 (EST)

Why has the link to the Shelly article been removed from this page?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:49, 7 April 2006 (EST)
::You yourself personally deleted it on March 20. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:53, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I did no such thing! --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 0:07, 8 April 2006 (EST)

==Caprica Six Separation?==

I think it may be time to give Caprica Six her own article, since her character is even more developed than Shelley Godfrey or Gina who have their own. We now know more about her fate. We should, however, leave Mental Six in this article, with the standard sixes, or perhaps open a new article called "Cylon Related Hallucinations" which might include The Mentals (Six and Baltar) and all hallucinations related to them.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 25 February 2006
:I created the Hallucinations article, it has a copy of all the text in the Internal-Six section. Should we now turn that section into a link to the article?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:45, 14 March 2006 (EST)

== Pics ==

This article has a ''lot'' of pictures. I'm concerned that this may make it difficult for users with low bandwidth to view this page. I'm also concerned that it could be pushing the boundaries of "fair use". I'm ''also'' concerned that it looks cluttered. I have my settings so allow 300px width on non-width-specified thumbnails in articles. This makes many of the images push the text into a very narrow column in the center. I think part of this, at least, is due to the aspect ratios. I really, really support the idea that, aside from template pics (character or ship, etc.) or pics included to demonstrate some detail (like rank insignia or whatever), we should try to have all other pictures be non-cropped wide-screen formatted snaps directly from the show. I kind of wish you could make the settings control make whatever the longest dimension of an image is be 300px, rather than simply controlling the width. Alas, this isn't how it works. Anyway... I think we either need to remove pics to unclutter this page and/or get full-screen shots for all these images. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 23:31, 4 June 2006 (CDT)
:I added all the pictures in order to brighten up the article. I didn't know that the amount of pictures can interfere with viewing. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:53, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
::Pictures make a picture friendly, removing them would make the article seem too mechanical. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:07 June 06 2006

::: There ''is'' such a thing as too many pictures. We should talk about how many is too many. However, this should probably be discussed on S&C. I'll bring it up when I get back into town (Monday or so) if no one else has by then. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 23:29, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
: I concur with Day. I think that we either need to figure out which pictures we need to remove from the page, or reduce the width of the images themselves. (At a higher resolution, the article doesn't flow well.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:01, 7 June 2006 (CDT)
::I've already removed the pictures that Day was talking about. The situation is resolved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:55, 8 June 2006 (CDT)

==Main Image==
I was thinking about this article a while back and then realized something, that while the main image is perfect, it doesn't really illustrate a "Number Six" Cylon, it is, after all, Baltar's Mental Six. Now, this wouldn't matter too much if all the Six looked like her, but then I realize that they don't, not one Six other than Baltar's imaginary one goes around dressed like a Supermodel, they've all got unsuggestive clothing and don't have the great variety of outfits the other one has.

So I was thinking if anyone else thought it might be idea if we try to find a relatively good counterpart for a main picture, that really illustrates how the standard Number Six Cylon is (Normally Pants-Shirt-Jacket). I know it may seem picky, but when you really think about it, Sixes don't walk around like models all the time (in fact rarely). I'll try to find some good candidates, but I also wanted peoples' opinion on this matter.

PS: If we do decide to change it, but don't find any candidates, we could simply wait for Season 3 Promotional Photography, since they're more than likely to include a Standard Looking Six. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 18:21, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

:Well I think we should keep the main one we're using now, as it's one of the promotional images the official site uses alot when they say "This is Number Six", so it's kind of generic and they think so. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:52, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

::I know, and the perfect one will probably come along when the Season 3 batch comes out, but it's sort of like with the Number 8 article, we don't just put Sharon there, we tried to find the most common trend in the model and illustrate it with a good image. Sometimes it doesn't matter, since the 1 Cylon we've seen is exactly like the others (Doral, Cavil, Leoben, etc...) but for a Six, which is a model described as "hard core" by the Cylons themeselves, the picture of a seductress in an elegant dress doesn't exactly illustrate the generic model.

I'm just pointing it out, and trying to find a good generic Six, but it won't be perfect until the new batch comes. -- [[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:38, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

Now that the Season 3 Promotional Photos have been released, I believe there is a very good picture that better illustrates the Number Six:

[[Image:NumSix.jpg|thumb|center]]

What do you think? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:39, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
:Nice. Maybe we should just do this for every one... umm.. no spoilers are really spoiled so I don't see why not. Any other comments on this? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:49, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
::Well then, I shall place it as such. I also updated Caprica Sharon's Page, since we got her first Promo Image. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 00:02, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

I wanted to point out that a new image of Number Six has been revealed in very high resolution here [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000hf8ky/g186]. Nonetheless, I vote that we keep the current one, not only because it is a better pose but because it is conveys the overall character of the entire model a lot more than the other one.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 18:37, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
:We have just about all of the Season 3 promo shots from there here in Shane's gallery at the media BSwiki. I should know, I uploaded them :). They are 25% size to keep the size down but are still high res. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:17, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
::Not all of them, there are a bunch of portraits that are not there. Anyways, the Six portrait I'm talking about was released either today or yesterday, and it's good, but I am putting this notice that despite it being good, the current image is better for this article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:23, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Yeah, I like the one here, it fits well and looks good. I vote we keep it. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:28, 24 September 2006 (CDT)

What I did was, I put that image on the Caprica-Six article, as I think that image was more representative of Caprica-Six than Number Six as a whole. --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 20:55, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
*Actually it is quite more representative of the Model than it is of the specific Caprica-Six. The Pose and Costume convey the simplicity and agressiveness of the Sixes, they are militaristic, strong and beautiful. The other picture, the one of Baltar's Phantom Six is really not a good representation of the Sixes, despite being a good picture in itself (as I had said a few months back), and I believe that the Standard Six is very well represented by the current image. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 02:42, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

:What about [http://galactica.emedian.net/gallery/s3/th/imagepages/image3.html this image]?--[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 13:11, 30 September 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the last point I made (right above our discussion) ;) It's the same problem: Though it's a great image, and a great representation of Mental Six, it isn't a fair representation of the model, which has constantly proven itself to be a lot more different than Baltar's illusion. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:19, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

== Greek Astrology with personality types ==

does anyone know if there is any connection between the numbers of the cylon agents, and the numbers that certain astrological signs represent (i.e. six represents virgo). Because if the cylons only had "the scriptures" to base the personalities on, then the personalities and traits of various astrological signs may be relivant.
i dont know anything about astrology though [[User:Acitcratna|Acitcratna]] 00:40, 06 October 2006 (AWST)

:Well, RDM has stated that the 12 models are based uponn archetypes of humanity. It's like the Cylons looked at humanity and said "Well, if you break it down, there're really only 12 of you, and these are them." --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:15, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
::By astrological logic, [[Three]] would be [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Gemenon|Gemini]], [[Five]] would be [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Leonis|Leo]], [[Six]] would be [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Virgon|Virgo]], and [[Eight]] would be [[The_Twelve_Colonies_%28RDM%29#Scorpia|Scorpio]], but I don't think their personalities really fit with that. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:22, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
:::well, Three is kind of supported by: "Using their communicative skills, Geminis adapt to any situation they encounter. Geminis have clever tongues and develop an amazing ability to obscure the facts with stimulating and imaginative chatter." (Being a reporter and all), and valerii is kind of supported by: "Scorpios stubbornly cling to emotional attachments. They rarely forget or forgive emotional rejection." (falling in love), but i dont think ive seen six's: To deflect attention away from themselves, Virgos will also focus on other people by praising their talents and virtues, or by criticizing faulty behavior or personal imperfection."... emphasis on kind of[[User:Acitcratna|Acitcratna]] 00:50, 06 October 2006 (AWST)

Talk:Number Six/Archive 1

2006-10-05T16:26:09Z

Acitcratna: /* Greek Astrology with personality types */

==Another Number Six==

Wasn't there another Number Six encountered and killed by Starbuck in [[Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part II]]? --[[User:Blacklight|Blacklight]]

:There are many copies, of course, and because they are identical, it is impossible to know if a specific copy was killed. Six is everywhere! Best to mention the copy only when they do something distinctive or have a specific identity in an episode, such as Godfrey and Gina, or Baltar's Six. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 21:43, 1 October 2005 (EDT)

:Actually that was one of the "standard" "Caprican Overseer Models" as evidenced by her black jacket. ---Ricimer, 10 October, 2005

==Notes move==
Spencerian - I put the notes back in their old position based on the conversation Day and I had at [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters/Archive01#Layout in Humano-Cylon Articles]]. As I said there, there are many cases where notes, points of analysis, etc. may be applicable only to individual copies of a particular humano-cylon, or to the entire model line. If you disagree, please re-open the conversation on the [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters|Characters talk page]].--[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:48, 10 October 2005 (EDT)

:Done. See the page. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:14, 10 October 2005 (EDT)

==The Many Deaths of Six==
Just having some fun on the talk page here; but it's fun to think of just how many times and ways Six has died (after seeing the part that said "copies have been destroyed in several episodes).
Number Six has been killed by methods including:
*Blown up by a Basestar that attacked Armistice Station.
*By broken glass from windows exploding inwards from the shockwave of a distant nuclear blast.
*Shot in the back by another humanoid Cylon, Caprica-Sharon.
*Pushed off of a ledge and impaled on debris by Starbuck.
*Brained over the head with a fire extinguisher by Starbuck. (not necessarily causing death)
*Vaporized by a detonating nuclear bomb she was sitting right next to.

To quote Third Rock From The Sun, "We just kept hitting it, and hitting it, but it ''just wouldn't die!''". --Ricimer, 10 October, 2005

: Was Six killed on the Arrow, or was she impaled on debris on the floor where they landed? I'm pretty sure it was NOT the Arrow...worth looking again. We don't know that the "extinguished" Six was killed, but she was certainly knocked out. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 12:26, 11 October 2005 (EDT)

:: She was not killed by the arrow at all. If you go back and look at the season finale, you will see that Six had a marine style "Ka-Bar" knife sticking out of her torso. IIRC, starbuck actually has the arrow in her hand. --Shogunmoon 12:45, 4 November 2005 (EST)

The Leobon and Doral general articles had the Death line filled. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:11, 7 march 2006 (EST)

== Baltar's Six ==

This is admittedly farfetched, but might it be possible that both Baltar and Caprica Six uploaded, at least partially, into each other's brain? In the series, it has been repeatedly stated that Cylon and Human physiology are nearly identical until you get down to the cells. Though Cylons have silica pathways in their brains, it might be possible they still store memories chemically (perhaps only digitizing them upon upload), using these pathways only for the digital transference of memory. So, if memories of both species are stored the same, then the very method of transmission Caprica Six used to upload her consciousness might have inadvertently brought along a bit of Gaius, while transmitting a bit of her into ''his'' mind. The cause for this transference might well be the nuclear blast that she blocked with her body. Adding plausibility to this theory is the fact that this time period is still vague, as well, as nothing is shown of how exactly her shielding of Baltar saved him so completely, that he emerges dazed but relatively intact near the raptor piloted by Sharon. Crazy sounding, I know, but I'd love to hear the other theories out there.
-- [[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 23:47, 12 March 2006 (CST)

That's actually possible- there's one flaw, though: if parts of themselves were uploaded into the other, why don't they behave like the originals? Baltar-Six behaves nothing like Caprica-Six, and her Baltar is fairly different from the original. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 08:01, 13 March 2006 (EST)

Good point. My only explanation would be that the entire personality didn't get uploaded. Perhaps only a portion, with certain key information or memories from the real Baltar and Six, that becomes incorporated into the subconcious and becomes a sort of Freudian gateway to their own inner doubts and fears. Granted, this becomes rather convoluted, but it still remains the only way I can see for ''both'' of them to be having this phenomenom without either of them knowing how or why. --[[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 17:03, 13 March 2006 (CST)

I guess you're right- unless they descide to twist this into a Count Iblis/Ship of Lights arc, and Six is actually a demoness (would that make Baltar the angel?). I'm sorry to sound if I keep trying to burst your ballon, but why wouldn't Six have figured out that's how Gaius got in her head? She would probably know a fair amount the process if she intended to employ it. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 07:39, 14 March 2006 (EST)

About shielding Baltar - I think perhaps the blast was quite far away, and she merely shielded him from the shattering glass of his windows. If this is the case, the circumstances of caprica-six's "death" are still wide open. --[[User:Mitchy|Mitchy]] 15:24, 14 March 2006 (CST)

This could lead us to a major debate: the glass was part of it, but so was the shockwave. Because Six has at least twice the strength of a normal human, she prevented Baltar from being thrown thrown through the wall and killed. The real mystery is what happened to her body... we should move this to the "Caprica-Six" talk page. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 17:18, 14 March 2006 (EST)

One last note: so far as why she wouldn't know about it if she was the one who employed the method, I don't think she meant for it to happen, which is why she is so confused as well. Also, going to the blast, she seemed to have died instantly in the blast judging by her reaction at rebirth. If she were killed like that, how did she manage to stay upright to shield Baltar, anyway? And a shockwave of that force...I'm not a nuclear scientist, but wouldn't it still carry considerable radiation? The whole sequence is one of the most puzzling to me, so far...and I still believe that is the precise moment when this swapping of pseudo-personalities occurred.--[[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 00:34, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Well, it's definetly the most likely theory we've got so far. Again, we've got missing information (how far from Caprica City was Baltar's house, was is even near Caprica City? that might not have been a nuclear shockwave- even if it was, depending on distance, radiation would be negligible. Anyway, I think they want us to focus more on the question, "What the hell is Baltar-Six?" than "How EXACTLY did Caprica-Six die?" my policy is, if the actor doesn't obsess about it, fans shouldn't loss sleep over it. (Though making us wait till October is just plain sadistic- I'll have to move back to Britain this summer and see if SkyOne's airing them sooner...) :-P [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 07:43, 15 March 2006 (EST)

== Natasi? ==

I've heard that "Natasi" is the name used in the mini-series novilization. However has the name been used anywhere else other than that? If so, we should be careful in the name's use... Otherwise I would make a note of it in the "Notes" section, but wouldn't introduce the name into the main article... Comments, questions or concerns anyone? -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 14:04, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:The fact that somebody had to comment on how it was pronounced ("Carver stated that he pronounces "Natasi" as "Nuh-TAH-see", though fans could really pronounce it any way they want.") would lead me to believe that it hadn't been spoken onscreen. Otherwise, it would be pretty evident. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:13, 9 December 2005 (EST)

::I'm the one that originally reported this here (I asked the question on GalacticaStation), and ''I'' don't think we should put it EVERYWHERE. All I wanted was a little footnote at the end of the "Baltar's original Six" entry. I don't think it should be casually used to refer to her; it's just a fun anecdote. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 15:09, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::I don't mind using it where relevant (and cited), as long as nothing contradicts it. It stands to reason that Baltar didn't spend two years calling her "Hey you, with the platinum hair in the miniskirt." I wonder if "Epiphanies" will shed any light on this. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 15:18, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::: I always figured he called her Sex-Bot 9000. ;) --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:03, 9 December 2005 (EST)

:::::According to James Callis in his Sci-Fi Magazine interview, what Baltar was initially calling her was something more like "Oh, gods! Oh...gods! Oh! My! GODS!" Seriously, however, since it appears in an official novelization, we could allow it, with suitable caveat that this is not aired content. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:10, 9 December 2005 (EST)

Merv, please explain your objection to this. I see no problem with the use of that term until it's explicitly contracted on-screen. Is this the case as of "Downloaded"? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:27, 24 February 2006 (EST)
:....I...did say, in the summary box on the dit; sorry, communication must remain short; just doing in im bursts at commercials more later.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 22:35, 24 February 2006 (EST)
::Kuralyov is explaining the situation to me on [[Talk:Caprica Six]].

==Gina's Rank on Pegasus==
Wouldn't it be fair to say that if Gina was eating in the same mess as Cain, that she was an officer? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:27, 7 January 2006 (EST)

:I got the idea that it was a communal mess that everyone ate in. Cain would have probably eaten with the crew to improve the loyalty and comraderie between herself and the crew. Gina was probably just a civilian draftee like [[Laird]] that probably lied her way onto the Pegasus, claiming to have skills good enough to get her off the doomed ship that she used to be on. But then again, if Gina was an officer on Pegasus, that would make the betrayal even deeper, leading to her extremely harsh punishment.--Ltcrashdown 02:32, 7 January 2006 (EST)
::According to the spoilers released before the episode, she was a civilian dockworker. The same spoilers mentioned Pegasus' unhooked computers as the reason it escaped the virus. Since that information is purported to be in the full-length Pegasus episode on the upcoming full-Season Two DVD, Gina's status may be on the DVD as well.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:07, 5 April 2006 (EST)

== Sara? ==

I am going back over the episodes to scan them for this, but I distinctly remember Baltar referring to Number Six as "Sara", and it appears clearly in the closed captioning/subtitles. Has anyone else caught this? --[[User:ThesposAZ|ThesposAZ]] 16:47, 15 January 2006 (EST)

:When? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 02:06, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::It's in Home, Part II, when Baltar's Six is telling him he's crazy. Right after she explains he created her when his mind snapped over the guilt of helping the Cylons massacre humanity. According to the subtitles, he replies, "Well, I don't know what game you're playing anymore. But I'm not playing this stupid game, Sara. Now you've had your fun." However, I don't think the subtitles are right. His mouth moves slightly into shadow during "Sara" but it looks and sounds more like he says "...this stupid game, so, uh, now you've had your fun". [[User:Emrys|Emrys]] 00:24, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

== Shelly Godfrey ==

According to http://german.about.com/library/blvornamen05.htm the name "Godfrey" is listed as English related to Old German "Gottfried", meaning "God's peace". I wasn't certain how acceptible this was as a source, so I didn't make an edit, but I thought I would at least leave an answer for the Citation Jihad. --[[User:Corvus|Corvus]] 07:26, 26 January 2006 (EST)

Why has the link to the Shelly article been removed from this page?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:49, 7 April 2006 (EST)
::You yourself personally deleted it on March 20. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:53, 7 April 2006 (CDT)
:::I did no such thing! --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 0:07, 8 April 2006 (EST)

==Caprica Six Separation?==

I think it may be time to give Caprica Six her own article, since her character is even more developed than Shelley Godfrey or Gina who have their own. We now know more about her fate. We should, however, leave Mental Six in this article, with the standard sixes, or perhaps open a new article called "Cylon Related Hallucinations" which might include The Mentals (Six and Baltar) and all hallucinations related to them.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 25 February 2006
:I created the Hallucinations article, it has a copy of all the text in the Internal-Six section. Should we now turn that section into a link to the article?--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:45, 14 March 2006 (EST)

== Pics ==

This article has a ''lot'' of pictures. I'm concerned that this may make it difficult for users with low bandwidth to view this page. I'm also concerned that it could be pushing the boundaries of "fair use". I'm ''also'' concerned that it looks cluttered. I have my settings so allow 300px width on non-width-specified thumbnails in articles. This makes many of the images push the text into a very narrow column in the center. I think part of this, at least, is due to the aspect ratios. I really, really support the idea that, aside from template pics (character or ship, etc.) or pics included to demonstrate some detail (like rank insignia or whatever), we should try to have all other pictures be non-cropped wide-screen formatted snaps directly from the show. I kind of wish you could make the settings control make whatever the longest dimension of an image is be 300px, rather than simply controlling the width. Alas, this isn't how it works. Anyway... I think we either need to remove pics to unclutter this page and/or get full-screen shots for all these images. What do others think? --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 23:31, 4 June 2006 (CDT)
:I added all the pictures in order to brighten up the article. I didn't know that the amount of pictures can interfere with viewing. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:53, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
::Pictures make a picture friendly, removing them would make the article seem too mechanical. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 17:07 June 06 2006

::: There ''is'' such a thing as too many pictures. We should talk about how many is too many. However, this should probably be discussed on S&C. I'll bring it up when I get back into town (Monday or so) if no one else has by then. --[[User:Day|Day]] ([[User talk:Day|Talk]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Administrators' noticeboard|Admin]]) 23:29, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
: I concur with Day. I think that we either need to figure out which pictures we need to remove from the page, or reduce the width of the images themselves. (At a higher resolution, the article doesn't flow well.) -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 08:01, 7 June 2006 (CDT)
::I've already removed the pictures that Day was talking about. The situation is resolved. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 21:55, 8 June 2006 (CDT)

==Main Image==
I was thinking about this article a while back and then realized something, that while the main image is perfect, it doesn't really illustrate a "Number Six" Cylon, it is, after all, Baltar's Mental Six. Now, this wouldn't matter too much if all the Six looked like her, but then I realize that they don't, not one Six other than Baltar's imaginary one goes around dressed like a Supermodel, they've all got unsuggestive clothing and don't have the great variety of outfits the other one has.

So I was thinking if anyone else thought it might be idea if we try to find a relatively good counterpart for a main picture, that really illustrates how the standard Number Six Cylon is (Normally Pants-Shirt-Jacket). I know it may seem picky, but when you really think about it, Sixes don't walk around like models all the time (in fact rarely). I'll try to find some good candidates, but I also wanted peoples' opinion on this matter.

PS: If we do decide to change it, but don't find any candidates, we could simply wait for Season 3 Promotional Photography, since they're more than likely to include a Standard Looking Six. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 18:21, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

:Well I think we should keep the main one we're using now, as it's one of the promotional images the official site uses alot when they say "This is Number Six", so it's kind of generic and they think so. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 18:52, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

::I know, and the perfect one will probably come along when the Season 3 batch comes out, but it's sort of like with the Number 8 article, we don't just put Sharon there, we tried to find the most common trend in the model and illustrate it with a good image. Sometimes it doesn't matter, since the 1 Cylon we've seen is exactly like the others (Doral, Cavil, Leoben, etc...) but for a Six, which is a model described as "hard core" by the Cylons themeselves, the picture of a seductress in an elegant dress doesn't exactly illustrate the generic model.

I'm just pointing it out, and trying to find a good generic Six, but it won't be perfect until the new batch comes. -- [[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:38, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

Now that the Season 3 Promotional Photos have been released, I believe there is a very good picture that better illustrates the Number Six:

[[Image:NumSix.jpg|thumb|center]]

What do you think? --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23:39, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
:Nice. Maybe we should just do this for every one... umm.. no spoilers are really spoiled so I don't see why not. Any other comments on this? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 23:49, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
::Well then, I shall place it as such. I also updated Caprica Sharon's Page, since we got her first Promo Image. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 00:02, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

I wanted to point out that a new image of Number Six has been revealed in very high resolution here [http://pics.livejournal.com/drewcypher/pic/000hf8ky/g186]. Nonetheless, I vote that we keep the current one, not only because it is a better pose but because it is conveys the overall character of the entire model a lot more than the other one.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 18:37, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
:We have just about all of the Season 3 promo shots from there here in Shane's gallery at the media BSwiki. I should know, I uploaded them :). They are 25% size to keep the size down but are still high res. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:17, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
::Not all of them, there are a bunch of portraits that are not there. Anyways, the Six portrait I'm talking about was released either today or yesterday, and it's good, but I am putting this notice that despite it being good, the current image is better for this article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19:23, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
:::Yeah, I like the one here, it fits well and looks good. I vote we keep it. --[[User:Talos|Talos]] 19:28, 24 September 2006 (CDT)

What I did was, I put that image on the Caprica-Six article, as I think that image was more representative of Caprica-Six than Number Six as a whole. --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 20:55, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
*Actually it is quite more representative of the Model than it is of the specific Caprica-Six. The Pose and Costume convey the simplicity and agressiveness of the Sixes, they are militaristic, strong and beautiful. The other picture, the one of Baltar's Phantom Six is really not a good representation of the Sixes, despite being a good picture in itself (as I had said a few months back), and I believe that the Standard Six is very well represented by the current image. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 02:42, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

:What about [http://galactica.emedian.net/gallery/s3/th/imagepages/image3.html this image]?--[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 13:11, 30 September 2006 (CDT)
::Look at the last point I made (right above our discussion) ;) It's the same problem: Though it's a great image, and a great representation of Mental Six, it isn't a fair representation of the model, which has constantly proven itself to be a lot more different than Baltar's illusion. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 16:19, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

== Greek Astrology with personality types ==

does anyone know if there is any connection between the numbers of the cylon agents, and the numbers that certain astrological signs represent (i.e. six represents virgo). Because if the cylons only had "the scriptures" to base the personalities on, then the personalities and traits of various astrological signs may be relivant.
i dont know anything about astrology though [[User:Acitcratna|Acitcratna]] 00:40, 06 October 2006 (AWST)

:Well, RDM has stated that the 12 models are based uponn archetypes of humanity. It's like the Cylons looked at humanity and said "Well, if you break it down, there're really only 12 of you, and these are them." --[[User:BklynBruzer|BklynBruzer]] 11:15, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
::By astrological logic, Three would be Gemini, Five would be Leo, Six would be Virgo, and Eight would be Scorpio, but I don't think their personalities really fit with that. [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 11:22, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
:::well, Three is kind of supported by: "Using their communicative skills, Geminis adapt to any situation they encounter. Geminis have clever tongues and develop an amazing ability to obscure the facts with stimulating and imaginative chatter." (Being a reporter and all)
and valerii is kind of supported by: "Scorpios stubbornly cling to emotional attachments. They rarely forget or forgive emotional rejection." (falling in love)
but i dont think ive seen six's: To deflect attention away from themselves, Virgos will also focus on other people by praising their talents and virtues, or by criticizing faulty behavior or personal imperfection. [[User:Acitcratna|Acitcratna]] 00:50, 06 October 2006 (AWST)

Talk:Number Six/Archive 1

2006-10-05T16:18:36Z

Acitcratna: /* Greek Astrology with personality types */

Talk:Number Six/Archive 1

2006-10-05T16:12:11Z

Acitcratna: Greek Astrology with personality types

Talk:Helena Cain/Archive 1

2006-10-04T16:21:11Z

Acitcratna: Biblical?

Moved to a page listing her surname first, hope no one minds.

I wonder why the ''Pegasus'' didn't follow Adama's order to rendezvous at Ragnar? Left the system before he sent it, or just Cain's megalomania? [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 16:50, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
: We may have that answer by this episode. It's a strong possibility that Cain may never have received the message since [[wireless]] has a range limit, and she may have jumped way out of range after the message was sent. Or, going to Ragnar was too hazardous for Pegasus, and Cain had to figure out where the fleet might have headed from Ragnar, in addition to perhaps avoiding her own pursuing Cylons. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 17:59, 23 September 2005 (EDT)

: Actually, I was thinking of doing entries by their first name. The reason that this was done in the first place was because we, at the time, didn't know how to alphabetize listings by their last name in categories... Unless you have a reason why we should continue with going by surname first, I would like to go to a format with first - middle - last name as the namespace. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 19:34, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)
::Fine with me, although seems like it's going to take a helluva long time to re-do all the entries. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 19:54, 29 Jun 2005 (EDT)

===Actress===
http://www.lvrocks.com/cgi-bin/cutecast/cutecast.cgi?forum=38&thread=2983#1

:''"And the big news was that Jane Seymour (Dr Quinn, East of Eden) from the original series, turned down the role of Admiral Cain. And Lynda Carter (Wonder Woman), Victoria Principal (DALLAS), Susan Lucci (All My Children) and Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek: Voyager) are all being consider for the hopeful female role.''

:''If the role cannot be filled by a woman they are looking at David Soul (Starsky and Hutch) or Don Johnson (Miami Vice) who was in that show with Olmos."''

Personally, I think Kate Mulgrew would be the best choice.

[[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 20:30, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

: Out of those choices, I do agree. Mulgrew is a good actress -- pity she was under-used in Voyager, IMHO. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:09, 30 Jun 2005 (EDT)

== My new info ==

http://www.calendarlive.com/printedition/calendar/suncal/cl-ca-lettersannex17jul17,0,7954431.story?coll=cl-suncal

Scroll down to the letter by "Tess Harper." [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 00:40, 18 Jul 2005 (EDT)

== "Spoiler Boxes" ==
The spoiler boxes have a serious flaw--you can't see the "this is a spoiler" line at the top when you're using the Monobook skin. It's too dark to read. I highlighted and ended up seeing the spoiler, and I didn't want to. Of course now I know what the box is and I won't highlight it anymore, but I would appreciate it if the box could be edited to be compatible with all the skins. Thanks. --[[User:Fang Aili|Fang Aili]] 00:16, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:I'm copying this to [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Spoiler Policy]], FYI. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 00:21, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

==Helena?==

SciFi.com is calling her Helena Cain. What do they say in the episode and captions? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

:''copied from [[Battlestar Wiki talk:Characters]]''
Okay. So, according to [http://scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/season02/210/ this], Cain's name is Helena, not Nelena. The former seems like a much more, well, reasonable first name, but it could be a typo or whatever. Anyone know where we got Nelena from? --[[User:Day|Day]] 16:43, 24 September 2005 (EDT)

::IMDB says "Nelena". --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 16:46, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::IMDB doesn't mena jack. Nelena was what all the spoilers called her, although Helena makes much more sense - the name means "Greek woman," which is obviously a connection with the background mythos of the series. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:06, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::I know it doesn't mean jack, but SciFi.com isn't always right either. Maybe someone who has the episode on tape could re-watch the scene where she's introduced and chime in? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:08, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
:::::I taped the episode but they never say her name or see it printed: it's not in the end credits, and at the beginning it just says "Special Guest Star; Michelle Forbes". I checked and it is not in "Pegasus". We should find confirmation in "Resurrection Ship". --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 11:54, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::::Um, when has SciFi.com never been right? In fact, they had a lot of stuff before it was even shwon in the show - Tyrol's first name, the Celestra, and the ship specifications. All of those were backed up either by the show or ZOIC. And seeing as every name in the show has been a real name, and Nelena isn't, and Helena works with the Greek centrism of the show, there's no reason to think that it's wrong. And in any event, claiming that IMDb takes precedence over the official site is laughable. [[User:Kuralyov|Kuralyov]] 17:15, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::::::Well, for one thing their older pages spell "Gemenon" as "Geminon", which was contradicted by "Colonial Day" - note that Helena/Nelena is also a one-letter spelling difference. But I don't really feel the need to carry on an argument about whether IMDB or SciFi are more reliable, when we can simply watch the episode over again at our next opportunity and see what the characters actually say. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 17:37, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
: Please remember to be, well, cautious about content from Sci-Fi and IMDb. They've had errors crop up on both pages before; for instance, Paul Tigh instead of Saul Tigh, and I believe they even indicated that the character [[Grimes]] (in "[[Colonial Day]]") was also an assassin at one point. As for IMDb, they're really hit or miss on things such as this. -- [[User:Joe.Beaudoin|Joe Beaudoin]] 20:58, 24 September 2005 (EDT)
::I can see where a typo could have occurred with the similarity between a capital "N" or "H." Still, it makes it harder when the character name is not used in speech in an episode to verify. [[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 10:46, 18 October 2005 (EDT)
:::Isn't she in the credits? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 11:24, 18 October 2005 (EDT)

==Why?==

I just got done watching Resurrection Ship, Part I -- that sound you heard (like a strem-locomotive being eaten alive) was me. Oh the pain the pain the pain! How could they (the writers) do this? Cain -- in the orginal -- was headstrong and made an "act of tactical misjudgement;" but he was mainly a leader who always inspired others. Even the Galactica personel were awed by him -- so much so that Apollo and Starbuck tried the absurd stunt of flying two "Vipers against Baseships." But this woman makes my skin crawl. Her insubordination to the President is reminicent of MacArthur's own insubordination with President Truman. But for her to openly order her people to murder Adama ''and his command staff'' and take the Galactica -- that is totally out in left field. There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude. The original Cain inspired those under him, but this one commands through fear. No officer like that could ever rise to the rank of Admiral. The orders she has given are illegal and she knows it. The orders she has given are illegal and the people under her know it. And this isn't the first illegal order she's given. She should have been relived when she murdered her XO. You don't obey illegal orders. What the hell is going on here? I have considered this NEW incarnation of the series to be charachter-rape of the worst kind -- and now its gotten wose than I thought possiple. They're going too darn far! Why are they doing this? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 06:06, 8 January 2006 (EST)

:Welcome to the Wiki, Centuri. "I feel your pain." But, this is a different show so we cannot expect the same characterizations or else we'd lose the conflicts and contrasts we've enjoyed so far. This show is not a clone of the original, so a different mindset is required. This is a story of what humanity with its back to the wall. And despite that, the humans still find ways to screw themselves over. I think you did hit upon some similarities between the RDM Cain and her TOS counterpart. This Cain IS well respected by her crew--they have gone through life and death together in a way that ''Galactica's'' crew hadn't quite done in the same scale. Yet Cain is an extremist--her military training has made her forget the reason she and her crew exist--the preservation and protection of the Colonies and her people. She uses the letter of the law and ignores the spirit of the law. For example, if by taking some of her civilian fleet's supplies she would ensure the survival of all of the colonists in those ships as she escorted them out of harm's way, that would be understandable. But she left them to die just to fight--and for what? Roslin said it best; Cain is a threat to the Fleet because she believes that (1) fighting is all that there is to do, and by her rules, and (2) she ignores or forgets that the military serves the people and not the other way around. She will turn on the civilians for the "greater good" of defeating an undefeatable enemy. As far as Cain being relieved of duty, remember that she's built up a lot of morale on her ship through her fights--the crew respect her, if not likes her. They know she kicks ass. And they are also infected with the same fighting attitude that blinds them to what they should really be doing. And her crew also fears her for the same reason--no one but Adama and his crew may have the guts to challenge her. Roslin is completely right when she tells Adama she must be killed. If she doesn't die, EVERYONE may die. The Colonial Fleet wasn't perfect; Cain's promotion likely came through the same poor decisions that doomed them all. Adama has a chance to undo it and gain resources to ensure their survival. Remember, Adama would be Cain if Roslin didn't talk him out of fighting.

:The fact that you are incensed means that the writing is working. :) Take the show as a new story and temporarily place the good story that was "The Living Legend" aside for an hour. This Cain is no hero, but this Adama will step up to the plate as I thought his counterpart should have been in TOS. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 13:11, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::What you are asking is difficult -- at best. Battlestar Galactica, was a space-war saga. TOS writing was too flawed for the show to survive (THE YOUNG LORDS). However, it still exists as a concept. And that concept was NOT ''The Young & the Resless meets Days of Our Lives and the Guiding Light'' in space! Blah! Sorry, I have a high level of quality expectation with Sci-fi. Take a look at Sci-Fi Channels re-imaging of DUNE -- it was fantastic. They are capable of high quality work, as FARSCAPE demonstrated, but this..... -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 20:04, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Play nice Centuri. If you are expressing your honest concern, fine, but if this turns out to be another sock-puppet pseudonym of Languatron/Spider, abusive/unproductive posting can be banned. --[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 18:16, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::::"Who are you?" -- "What do you want?" And what are you talking about? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 18:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::Ricimer, I'm going to have to start keeping a private list of your hostile remarks. Expect this to come up at your next RFA. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 18:42, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::A) No this is not a "hostile remark"; it is a warning that simple trolling is grounds for banning; as this has ''not'' happened, it proved to be unnecessary. Under '''no''' circumstances does saying "play nice, we do ban people who misbehave", without any actual berating, mean "hostility". You are being unfair in this Farago, as when I had that arguement with SgtPayne and you chastized me...only for me to find that the one who offended SgtPayne was ''you'' and not myself. I haven't actually done anything wrong, so please stop tring to get blood from a stone. '''B)''' In hindsight, it appears that Centuri probably ''wasn't'' aware of this, but on many messageboards I go to, this guy named Languatron (or Spider as he now calls himself) floods the messageboards with trollings about how much "Helena Cain" ruined the TOS character. I tried ot introduce BSG to the E Online's new forums, and he kind of destroyed them as they have no moderators there. I am sorry if I have mislabeled this person, but I must say, at first glance it looked like the ''exact same'' rhetoric as the one used by a troll who tried to bring down TNS sites. "I appologize for the inconvenience..."--[[User:Ricimer|Ricimer]] 21:43, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::::It doesn't matter whether the deletion was yours or mine, or whether Centuri is a sockpuppet for someone you know or not. You need to moderate your tone, react less hastily, and extend the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:57, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::::"rhetoric"? -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 00:45, 10 January 2006 (EST)

::::1 - who is Ricimer?
::::2 - what is he talking about?
::::-- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::1 - A regular and prolific contributor here.
:::::2 - I have no idea. Maybe a fight he had on wikipedia. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:27, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:"There is no way any officer in any military heirarcy could rise through the ranks or have any respect from their subordinates with such a cold blooded additude." Oh, how I wish that were true... As for her orders' illegality, I don't think it's really clear that anything she's done is explicitly illegal -- though that certainly doesn't make her actions acceptable. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 17:24, 8 January 2006 (EST)

::She ordered her crew to murder civilians. They were lined up against a wall and executed. There is no regulation that can give her the authority to do that. Killing defenceless civilians is prohibited by the articles of war. "All murders committed by any person in the fleet, shall be punished with death by the sentence of a court martial." It was an illegal order -- period! -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 19:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Besides the fact that I'm not aware of any specific Colonial laws regarding this, there were potentially Cylons among those civilians, so she could have easily justified it as "possible enemy combatants" (*cough*). It isn't murder unless the killing is explicity against the law, and I don't think that's been established. This is a rather trivial matter though; she's a dead woman walking anyway (as much as I love having her on the show). --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 21:54, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::::I'm pretty sure having Adama killed is illegal. The fact that Adama is issuing the exact same order (at almost the exact same time) doesn't make it any more legal. Granted, she's dead either way. I'm just curious who's on the other end of that pistol. I'm guessing it's NOT Kara Thrace, and leaning more towards the Gina/Pegasus/Six. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 22:01, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::::Not just Adama -- his entire command. That means all senior officers and crew. She ordered him to kill EVERYONE in CIC and the personel in key areas throughout the ship. You know, this has gotten a little afield of my original inquiry. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 21:59, 10 January 2006 (EST)

: Coming into this one late, a few points. Firstly, I disagree that [[Helena Cain]] is all that different from [[Cain (TOS)]]. Both characters had become laws unto themselves, by virtue of honestly believing they were the last of humanity. Both characters were prepared to do whatever they believed was necessary to continue to prosecute the war, even if they stood no chance of ultimately bringing the Cylons down entirely. Neither character actually adjusted well to being re-integrated with a larger body of survivors, the main difference being that [[Cain (TOS)|Cain]] didn't actually outrank [[Adama (TOS)]]; [[Adama (TOS)|Adama]] was willing to defer to him somewhat, because he saw [[Cain (TOS)|Cain]] as a tactical genius, but the two were equals. The other difference is that TOS was made in the 1970s and was seen as family programming (witness their refusal to allow [[Cassiopeia]] to remain a [[socialator]] for the series). [[Cain (TOS)|Cain]] could be portrayed as a maverick, a hard-ass, and a bit touched, but not a murderer of his own crew, let alone someone who would conscript civilians, steal the remainder's supplies, and run. I don't believe it's actually out of character for [[Cain (TOS)]], they just couldn't say he did it. Frankly, I think the real reason it comes across creepier is because [[Helena Cain]] is a woman, and even in 2006 we still have cultural ideas that tell us that women don't do that sort of thing. Which is almost certainly why RDM chose that particular gender swap.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:11, 24 February 2006 (EST)

===if you find the show unenjoyable===

As for you, Centuri, if you find the show unenjoyable, you certainly aren't required to watch it or contribute to the RDM articles here. There are [[TOS|other series]] in need of documentation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:32, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:My friend (I hope I may address you as such), you are right. Nobody says that I must watch the RDM (what does "RDM" mean?) series. As a general rule, I do not -- I was so major turned off by what we were given after so many years of waiting. But then, there was the news of the coming of the Pegasus -- I felt that this would be worth checking out. Surly, the introduction of the Pegasus would be a major turning point just as it was in the original series. I had my hopes up that they were going to turn things in a more energetic direction -- and I was sure wrong, it only got worse. Only curiosity about the conclusion has me going now. I will watch the conclusion, only because I want to find out who kills who. As I see it, there are 5 possibilities:

# Kara Thrace carries out the order,
# Kara Thrace fails in the attempt and some other sap succeeds (like Londo's failed attempt on the Emperor's life followed by Vir finishing the job {Babylon 5 season 4])
# Adama never gets the chance to give the order because Cain gives the "Execute Case Orange" order first and Fisk does as he's been ordered. This will mean that Adama will die (and Edward James Olmos decided to leave the show -- small loss) leaving Cain in charge. If this happens, she will probably follow through by destroying ''Colonial One.''
# The opportunity never comes for either order to be carried out. Like the original Pegasus, the upcoming battle results in the ship being MAJOR damaged and dropping from the series (presumed destroyed with all hands).
# Fisk, knows that what he has been ordered to do is wrong, like so many other of Cain's orders. Fisk's conscience finally can't stand it, and he covertly informs Adama of the order, which would be followed by....

:We'll just have to wait and see. I'm just a long time fan of the original. A lot can and can not be said about it. When I saw the episode where Starbuck crashed on a planet where children were riding around on unicorns fighting the Cylons, I knew the show was dead. But it did have some good episodes. Comparison between the 2 is inevitable. Like the comparisons between the various versions of the movie ''The Phantom of the Opera,'' or any other redone work. Sorry, but I did have my hopes up. Did you ever read the Malibu Comics BG series ''Journey's End''? It showed one version of what they could have done. -- [[User:Centuri|Centuri]] 22:56, 9 January 2006 (EST)

::"what does 'RDM' mean?" [[Ronald D. Moore]]. --[[User:Redwall|Redwall]] 23:31, 9 January 2006 (EST)

:::Yes. We use "RDM" as the namespace on some articles where there are Original Series counterparts, such as [[Galactica (RDM)]] as opposed to [[Galactica (TOS)]]. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 00:43, 10 January 2006 (EST)

== 800 deaths ==

When was it it mentioned that Gina caused the 800 deaths? I'm not skeptical, but I dont recall it being mentioned in the show. Was it cut out for time in "Pegaus" and just mentioned in the podcasts?

Also, would anyone mind tuning up Cain's entry on Wikipedia? Im not asking for an exact copy, but maybe adding a little more detail (including her origins and the 800 deaths). --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 18:34, 15 January 2006 (EST)

:This was spurious information based on a spoiler someone provided before the episode aired. Confer [[Talk:Pegasus (episode)#Gina killed 800?]]. I thought we'd expurgated those references from the wiki, but apparently this is a tenacious bit of misinformation. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:20, 16 January 2006 (EST)

::Actually in the Extended Cut it's mentioned that Gina helped Cylon Centurion to get aboard Pegasus which caused over 800 deaths. But saying "over 700" would still be correct ;) --[[User:Serenity|Serenity]] 13:22, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

==Rank==

Since it is stated in this article [[http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Battlestar_Wiki:Official_Communiques/Archive04#Pegasus_.28Extended_Version.29]] that the extended episode of [[Pegasus_(episode)|Pegasus]] should be considered [[canon]], shouldn't Cain's rank be listed as "Rear Admiral"? --[[User:Madbrood|Madbrood]] 09:02, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

== Biblical? ==

did anyone get a Cain and Abel vibe between Cain and Adama when president Laura Roslin orders (suggests?) that Adama kill Cain?
or am i the only one feeling the vibe? --[[User:Acitcratna|Acitcratna]] 00:42, 05 October 2006 (AWST)

Talk:History of the Twelve Colonies/Archive 1

2006-10-04T14:19:17Z

Acitcratna: Cyclic history

Be wary while editing the murkier areas of Colonial history, lest we descend from reasonable speculation into all-out fanfiction. I offer this link to an old version of [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=History_of_the_Twelve_Colonies_of_Kobol&oldid=12919 History of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol] as a warning. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:00, 18 September 2005 (EDT)

==Fragged Cut Scene==
Nice catch, Ricimer. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:24, 12 December 2005 (EST)

Actually, for all we know ancient Egyptians "actually" had space travel, like Stargate, and humans from Earth left to colonize Kobol in our relative PAST (though this would have been like 5,000 years ago).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:35, 16 April 2006 (CDT)
:This is a fruitless line of inquiry. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:42, 16 April 2006 (CDT)

==Pythia.jpg==
I added [[:Image:Pythia.jpg]] with this article in mind, but now I don't have a good idea where to fit it. (Merv beat me to placing an image.) I went ahead and added it over to [[Sacred Scrolls]], which looks like it could use an image anyway. There's also some pics of the scrolls being soaked in rain (if those would be useful). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:17, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

:I like it, and I don't get the relevance of Merv's image. Can someone explain it to me? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:20, 7 July 2006 (CDT)
::Maybe it's a history museum (and the fact that it held the arrow)? Maybe we should just swap in the magnified pythia pic? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

Images that might work here:
:[[:Image:Lagoonnebula.jpg]] - "Life here began out there."
:[[:Image:Pythia.jpg]] - "...the oracle Pythia recorded her prophecy..."
:[[:Image:Gates of hera.jpg]] - "In despair, Athena threw herself from the Gates of Hera..."
:[[:Image:Centurion_armor_old.jpg]] - "The Colonials also created a line of robots, called Cylons..."
:[[:Image:Monclair.jpg]] - for section "The Cylon War".
:[[:Image:Armistice Station.jpg]] - "Colonials established a neutral meeting place, Armistice Station..."
More ideas later. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:00, 7 July 2006 (CDT)
::The first three are great. The old centurion ends up being a bit too "tall", though. I love the color that the pics add. Much more vibrant. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:48, 7 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Nevermind. I see what you were going for now. I was looking at them section by section, but it flows a lot better as a whole (especially without those pesky breaks added in there). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:53, 7 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Oh I was trying to get a clear shot that said "Delphi Museum of the Colonial History", which would have made more sense, but although the words are clearly visible on a TV screen they never zoom in, and there really aren't any good "keeper" shots of the title. Yeah, delete that. I'm going to find a better pick of that Monclair painting, that would be best. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:23, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

== Life Here Began Out There ==

There's some argument over if humans went from Earth to Kobol to Colonies to Earth or Kobol to Colonies to Earth. Perhaps I can clear this up with some historical geography.

* There was an ancient nation called '''Thrace''' near Greece in what is today Yugoslavia.
* After the fall of the Roman Empire many small principalities sprung up in Europe during the Middle Ages. One such provicne was named '''Tyrol.'''
* Delphi and Olympus in Ancient Greece.

All right, based on these names, I'd have to say that the proper line of migration was Kobol to Colonies to Earth, with Greece and Europe being the landing site for the Colonials if and when they find our fair planet. It's quite possible that some political factions broke off and named their homelands after their great heroes, like Starbuck or Tyrol, with Greece being a living memorial to the Colonies. How does this look to everyone? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 11:51, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

:It's supposed to be ambiguous, though I actually think it's set in the present or future. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:19, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

:I don't think we can really make conclusions based on naming/language. If they had to avoid any name or word that had Earth-related connotations they'd have to start making up words like [[felgercarb]] or [[pogees]]. While it's fine/valid to note the meanings of Earth related words/names, we should probably avoid concluding any actual Earth-Kobol (or Kobol-Earth) relationship until it is formally defined in-story (or even by cast/crew). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:43, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

::That makes sense. I just thought it was cool that some ancient nations had names related to BSG and it just seemed too coincidental to pass up. Should these parallels be put in a Notes section, perhaps (given that no conclusions will be drawn)? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 19:36, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

We already have a place for that: the [[Sacred Scrolls#Analysis|Sacred Scrolls: Analysis]] section. Yes, certain names like "Columbia, and more importantily, [[Life Forms of the Twelve Colonies]] are the same as those of Earth (I spent hours working on that project), but you've assumed it means BSG eventually reaches Ancient Earth and founds civilization there, while I actually interpret this as that the Twelve Tribes LEFT Ancient Earth for Kobol, and now exist either in our present, or future: see the Analysis section on Sacred Scrolls. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 09:10, 21 July 2006 (CDT)

:Cool, I'll go check your toil-of-many-hours. By the way, this whole subject of the time period is, in my opinion, getting overblown. The time of the show has not been elaborated on by any canon soruces and, until it is, it's all viewer opinion at this point. There's equally compelling evidence to support both sides of the argument, but not enough to draw conclusions on. I trust we can all appreciate each others' opinions. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 16:20, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

== Podcast Quote ==
Verifying the "Colonial Day" podcast, I ran across the following quote:
"there is defintely a connection between all these events and Earth events and I think that's part of what makes the series fascinating is trying to sort of divine what these connections are and where they're going."
I thought that was a pretty powerful statement from RDM, but wasn't sure where (or if) it ought to be incorporated, but this article was the first place that I thought of. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:12, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

== Cyclic history ==

If you consider that it was David Eick & Ron Moore's intention to be ambiguous in terms of the time span and period relative to earth, and also look at the connections between various characters and gods. Then the cyclical; “All this has happened before. All this will happen again.” theory sounds possible.
An interesting topic of thought is that it is possible that the human-cylons (or "God's children") may actually replace the humans AND the cylons to repeat the cycle. just a thought. --[[User:Acitcratna|Acitcratna]] 20:12, 04 October 2006 (CDT)

Talk:History of the Twelve Colonies/Archive 1

2006-10-04T14:18:09Z

Acitcratna: /* Life Here Began Out There */

Talk:History of the Twelve Colonies/Archive 1

2006-10-04T14:16:21Z

Acitcratna: /* Life Here Began Out There */

Be wary while editing the murkier areas of Colonial history, lest we descend from reasonable speculation into all-out fanfiction. I offer this link to an old version of [http://battlestarwiki.org/index.php?title=History_of_the_Twelve_Colonies_of_Kobol&oldid=12919 History of the Twelve Colonies of Kobol] as a warning. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 19:00, 18 September 2005 (EDT)

==Fragged Cut Scene==
Nice catch, Ricimer. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 22:24, 12 December 2005 (EST)

Actually, for all we know ancient Egyptians "actually" had space travel, like Stargate, and humans from Earth left to colonize Kobol in our relative PAST (though this would have been like 5,000 years ago).--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 20:35, 16 April 2006 (CDT)
:This is a fruitless line of inquiry. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 20:42, 16 April 2006 (CDT)

==Pythia.jpg==
I added [[:Image:Pythia.jpg]] with this article in mind, but now I don't have a good idea where to fit it. (Merv beat me to placing an image.) I went ahead and added it over to [[Sacred Scrolls]], which looks like it could use an image anyway. There's also some pics of the scrolls being soaked in rain (if those would be useful). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:17, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

:I like it, and I don't get the relevance of Merv's image. Can someone explain it to me? --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 09:20, 7 July 2006 (CDT)
::Maybe it's a history museum (and the fact that it held the arrow)? Maybe we should just swap in the magnified pythia pic? --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:26, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

Images that might work here:
:[[:Image:Lagoonnebula.jpg]] - "Life here began out there."
:[[:Image:Pythia.jpg]] - "...the oracle Pythia recorded her prophecy..."
:[[:Image:Gates of hera.jpg]] - "In despair, Athena threw herself from the Gates of Hera..."
:[[:Image:Centurion_armor_old.jpg]] - "The Colonials also created a line of robots, called Cylons..."
:[[:Image:Monclair.jpg]] - for section "The Cylon War".
:[[:Image:Armistice Station.jpg]] - "Colonials established a neutral meeting place, Armistice Station..."
More ideas later. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 10:00, 7 July 2006 (CDT)
::The first three are great. The old centurion ends up being a bit too "tall", though. I love the color that the pics add. Much more vibrant. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:48, 7 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Nevermind. I see what you were going for now. I was looking at them section by section, but it flows a lot better as a whole (especially without those pesky breaks added in there). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 13:53, 7 July 2006 (CDT)
:::Oh I was trying to get a clear shot that said "Delphi Museum of the Colonial History", which would have made more sense, but although the words are clearly visible on a TV screen they never zoom in, and there really aren't any good "keeper" shots of the title. Yeah, delete that. I'm going to find a better pick of that Monclair painting, that would be best. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 11:23, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

== Life Here Began Out There ==

There's some argument over if humans went from Earth to Kobol to Colonies to Earth or Kobol to Colonies to Earth. Perhaps I can clear this up with some historical geography.

* There was an ancient nation called '''Thrace''' near Greece in what is today Yugoslavia.
* After the fall of the Roman Empire many small principalities sprung up in Europe during the Middle Ages. One such provicne was named '''Tyrol.'''
* Delphi and Olympus in Ancient Greece.

All right, based on these names, I'd have to say that the proper line of migration was Kobol to Colonies to Earth, with Greece and Europe being the landing site for the Colonials if and when they find our fair planet. It's quite possible that some political factions broke off and named their homelands after their great heroes, like Starbuck or Tyrol, with Greece being a living memorial to the Colonies. How does this look to everyone? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 11:51, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

:It's supposed to be ambiguous, though I actually think it's set in the present or future. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 12:19, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

:I don't think we can really make conclusions based on naming/language. If they had to avoid any name or word that had Earth-related connotations they'd have to start making up words like [[felgercarb]] or [[pogees]]. While it's fine/valid to note the meanings of Earth related words/names, we should probably avoid concluding any actual Earth-Kobol (or Kobol-Earth) relationship until it is formally defined in-story (or even by cast/crew). --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:43, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

::That makes sense. I just thought it was cool that some ancient nations had names related to BSG and it just seemed too coincidental to pass up. Should these parallels be put in a Notes section, perhaps (given that no conclusions will be drawn)? --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 19:36, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

We already have a place for that: the [[Sacred Scrolls#Analysis|Sacred Scrolls: Analysis]] section. Yes, certain names like "Columbia, and more importantily, [[Life Forms of the Twelve Colonies]] are the same as those of Earth (I spent hours working on that project), but you've assumed it means BSG eventually reaches Ancient Earth and founds civilization there, while I actually interpret this as that the Twelve Tribes LEFT Ancient Earth for Kobol, and now exist either in our present, or future: see the Analysis section on Sacred Scrolls. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 09:10, 21 July 2006 (CDT)

:Cool, I'll go check your toil-of-many-hours. By the way, this whole subject of the time period is, in my opinion, getting overblown. The time of the show has not been elaborated on by any canon soruces and, until it is, it's all viewer opinion at this point. There's equally compelling evidence to support both sides of the argument, but not enough to draw conclusions on. I trust we can all appreciate each others' opinions. --[[User:Homeworld616|Homeworld616]] 16:20, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

If you consider that it was David Eick & Ron Moore's intention to be ambiguous in terms of the time span and period relative to earth, and also look at the connections between various characters and gods. Then the cyclical; “All this has happened before. All this will happen again.” theory sounds possible.
An interesting topic of thought is that it is possible that the human-cylons (or "God's children") may actually replace the humans AND the cylons to repeat the cycle. just a thought. --[[User:Acitcratna|Acitcratna]] 20:12, 04 October 2006 (CDT)

== Podcast Quote ==
Verifying the "Colonial Day" podcast, I ran across the following quote:
"there is defintely a connection between all these events and Earth events and I think that's part of what makes the series fascinating is trying to sort of divine what these connections are and where they're going."
I thought that was a pretty powerful statement from RDM, but wasn't sure where (or if) it ought to be incorporated, but this article was the first place that I thought of. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 14:12, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

Talk:Messengers/Archive 1

2006-09-20T15:14:46Z

Acitcratna: /* Analysis is ''not'' limited to episode guides... */

We should add some more specific examples of what the hallucinations have done. A picture of Internal-Baltar with Six would also be good.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:48, 14 March 2006 (EST)

Aside from marking the page as primarily speculative, I agree this page should stay. This is one of the things that people immediately notice when watching this series, and therefore deserves a place here. --[[User:Durandal|Durandal]] 01:02, 20 March 2006 (CST)

== "Most likely" ==

The article suggests that Six is "most likely" an actual, downloaded personality on a chip in his head. I disagree with this, in part because RDM himself has stated otherwise in his podcasts, but also because I think they've been very careful, for the most part, to leave the question balanced. Gaius Baltar is a genius. If Internal-Six is an hallucination, then he's officially a mad genius, but he's a genius, nonetheless. Almost all of his insights into Cylon motives, actions, and character can be explained simply by his being a genius with multiple personality disorder.

And example, from the miniseries: Six points out the device (later revealed to be a kind of transponder) on the underside of the DRADIS console. Baltar (like Gaeta, who admitted having seen it) has undoubtedly seen this device out of the corner of his eye the whole time he's been in CIC, and it is pretty obviously out of place with the rest of the ship's tech. A "normal" person would either ignore it (as Gaeta did, thinking it was part of the transformation of the ship into a museum) or start speculating silently to themselves what it might be and how it got there. The difference is that Baltar now has a dissociative personality that closely resembles his Cylon lover to talk these things through. Everything he knows or speculates that's related to the Cylons now comes from this split personality, because he's desperately trying to evade his own complicity.

In short, it's just as likely (if not more) that Baltar diagnosed himself correctly from the beginning. He's basically gone mad. And since he's not being treated, he will undoubtedly get worse before he gets better.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 14:41, 14 March 2006 (CST)
:Clarified.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:19, 14 March 2006 (EST)

:I think this page is redundant and should be removed.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 14:56, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::Why? It discusses both Internal-Six and Internal-Baltar, who constitute a single phenomenon or two closely related phenomena, so it doesn't belong under either Number Six or Gaius Baltar. All the information from the Internal-Six section of the Six article has been removed and put here. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:26, 14 March (EST)
:::I disagree with Merv that it's redundant, but I do think a lot of it is speculative. We've been tightening the standards on speculation in episode articles, but I'm not certain what the standard is outside them.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 15:12, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::::Since little concrete is known about the hallucinations the page about them is of course full of speculation, but they're too important not to have a page. The changes in prevailing theories as new evidence airs is noted. I agree that episode articles should not be speculative. Also, most of this content was already on this site, it has merely been moved to this more appropriate page.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 16:46, 14 March 2006 (EST)
:::::A fair point, and I'm not even sure I would have noticed the speculative aspects as worthy of mention until yesterday, when the policy for "Questions" in episode articles shifted. Now, tho', I'm sensitive to the question of which articles should be strictly encyclopedic and which can and should be more speculative. I'm not saying I'm certain this article should be heavily edited to strip out speculation. I'm saying I'm not certain either way.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 15:28, 14 March 2006 (CST)
::::::It sounds like Uncle Mikey might be ripe for [[Battlestar Wiki:Citation Jihad|recruitment]]. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 15:41, 14 March 2006 (CST)
:::::::Thou shalt not make a machine mind in the image of a human mind. Oh, wait, that's the '''Butlerian''' Jihad... :-D --[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Nonetheless, there are only two instances of this. Further, Baltar was definately a hallucination by Caprica-Six, clean and simple. Meanwhile, we still don't know what virtual Six is, but that goes on her own page.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:43, 15 March 2006 (CST)
:How so? Is it just a coincidence that she has an inner Baltar and he has an inner Six? --[[User:DrBat|DrBat]] 06:06, 17 March 2006 (CST)
:Further, and this is my biggest arguement against this (practicality): most of the information here is actually cut and pasted from other arguements. The entire last paragraph is just taken from the virtual Six article.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 06:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)
::I don't necessarily see that as an argument to eliminate this article. Having a single article that consolidates information about a particular topic is not a bad thing, and this topic is certainly one of wide interest.--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 09:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)

::Mikey you've only got two "hallucinations". It is hard to consolidate ''two'' things. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] 13:38, 15 March 2006 (CST)

This article is useful, and is not redundant in the least. It is speaking of a particular occurence of a character, which plays an important role and appears to be separate from all other instances of Number Six. It is silly to say that it is mere coincidence that both Baltar and Six are having hallucinations of each other, so it is a topic that should have a page listing information on each sighting of the hallucinations. After all, we have articles about marines who only have their names mentioned...considering the importance of virtual Six and virtual Baltar in influencing events, I think they more than qualify in importance in having their own article. As for the speculation, I would argue that an article about something that is as confusing as this will have a fair amount of speculation, until later episodes clear things up (if they ever do). I see nothing wrong with paragraphs beginning, "Thus far, it appears..." --[[User:Ravriem|Ravriem]] 19:48, 17 March 2006 (CST)
: I am seeing no problems with this page. It works! --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:10, 19 March 2006 (CST)

This page is extremely important. It is the only category in which Internal Six and Baltar (one of which is extremely important to the entire story) and all the hallucinations brought by six can fit. They don't fit anywhere else and to delete the page is to simply through these two and their "special effects" away. They are the reason behind everything that is going on. Face it, they are basically gods in the show, shaping the decisions of both sides. I wouldn't be surprise if they did indeed turn up being a part of the Cylon God. My point is, it is important to differentiate them from normal Baltar or any Six, they are not Cylons or humans, they are manipulative Hallucinations that have shaped things in their image. Arguing that they are only two is unfair, hallucinations refers to the entire set of hallucinations, the whole topic of mental six and mental baltar and basically the whole Six-Baltar story line. Its even more important to the story than one of the main characters like Thrace. -- [[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 20 March

No. In the podcasts RDM stated that the Baltar hallucination was just a hallucination, while they have been consistently ambiguous on ChipSix. Meanwhile, you even ''used'' the phrase "delete the thread"--->this is not a ''forum''. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:25, 19 March 2006 (CST)

:That was a mistake. No point in making attacks on a simple error, they don't really help. And RDM did not say Batlar was "just a hallucination", he said he was a hallucination, but then we already knew that, both are, by definition, hallucinations, whether aided by a foreign device or not. You interpreted to mean that baltar six was absolutley nothing more than madness. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 19 March 2006
::In this one The Merovingian, you are out numbered. There are more people here and '''you''' are the only one who thinks this should be deleted. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 12:45, 20 March 2006 (CST)

If we have such a problem with this, let me pose a solution: virtual-Six and virtual-Baltar aren't the only hallucinations, technically. They're just the only hallucinations that talk back. Baltar also hallucinated that Six brought him to the Opera House on Kobol. Maybe this should be a category, not an article, and Six, Baltar, and the Opera House couls have their own articles. Also, if more hallucinations are introduced, it would be pretty silly to have deleted this only to have to put it back. [[User:Ragestorm|Ragestorm]] 13:29, 20 March 2006 (CST)
:I think it is important to note that theatrically these hallusinations are treated characters in their own rights. The hallucination of the baby in the crib on Kobol is essentially a prop and whereas the hallucination of at-the-time-Commander William Adama was a character in his own right, it was a one-shot deal that was part of the scene. Also, Roslin's dreams of Adar were just dreams and not an interactive character but Adar still gets his own page because of historical notes. Hallucination-Six is a re-occurring interacting character thru many episodes and may just be Baltar's hallucination due to his psychosis, but there has to be a back story involved with her knowledge of events involving the birth of Hera. I believe this will come out in season 3 and therefore this article should be here in preparation of this revalation. Hallucination-Balter may earn his own article piece in the same revalations. We will see. I think the jury is out depending on the re-occurance of that character. [[User:StrayCat0|StrayCat0]] 09:21, 21 March 2006 (MST)

== Establishing a Pattern ==
I was watching an episode of DS9 the other day ([[MemoryAlpha:Waltz|Waltz]]), and was struck by the similarity of the interactions between (the increasingly insane) Dukat and his mental apparitions. Towards the beginning he is able to hold it together like Baltar and Six do, playing off comments or looks that he makes to them. It doesn't take too long before he's trying to blast them with a phaser, though. I was not surprised when I hit the memory-alpha site to find that RDM did the story on it. --[[User:Steelviper|Steelviper]] 09:39, 21 March 2006 (CST)
:Dukat, betrayer of the Alpha Quadrant. Baltar, betrayer of humanity.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:43, 21 March 2006 (EST)

==Should we Delete "Analysis and Questions"?==
Well, recently many people have been complaining about the supposed speculation based info in this article. I've read it well, and though they are obviousley exaggerating (its only one section), it is still possible for them to continue the arguement (which is hence started being used to describe the wiki, and its editors (unjustly at times). Perhaps if we deleted this it would ease the comments which may soon start to go more unjustly than just this article. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 23 March 2006
:For goodness sake, it's a marked section. If someone doesn't want to read speculation they can just ignore that part. It's starting to sound to me like we have obsessed people out there. Edit: I don't mean you, Sauron 18, but of course that's obvious.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 12:36, 25 March 2006 (EST)
::For the record, I personally have no objection to speculation in a marked-off section, particularly on a topic-specific page (as opposed to an episode guide page). I think that, when the series eventually comes to an end, speculations should be segregated out even further, so that a part of the site can be considered a solid reference work for the series, but hopefully we've got a while before we have to worry about that :-)--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 12:48, 25 March 2006 (CST)
:::I concur on all points.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:57, 25 March 2006 (EST)
::::Yeah, I would rather leave it there (especially if something turns up right), but I was just making a sort of plan b, if the wiki begins being attacked on a larger scale. Of course, people would have to be kind of stupid to not notice it says "Analysis and Questions", but, well people do tend to be a bit like this. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 25 March 2006

We should delete this page because A) the "ChipSix" section was better when on the main "Number Six" article; indeed, MOST of "Cylon related Hallucinations" is just a cut'n'paste of that old page's material B) the "Hallucinatory Baltar" stuff is just a copy paste of a paragraph from the episode guide. And even if they're re-written, there simply isn't much to say. And RDM STATED that Baltar was just a hallucination. ''BattlestarWiki'' is not a forum, and this page is really just a sloppy mistake. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:30, 25 March 2006 (CST)
:You are out gunned Merv. Also this page shows that this exists, shows that these do happen. Delete it, but it would be back in another form or another because these Hallucinations are creating story plot and twists and they should be addressed all together. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:13, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:I don't know why you think Internal-Six would be better on the Number Six article when she clearly isn't one. Also, RDM's exact words were that Caprica-Six is seeing her own idea of who Baltar is. He said the same of Baltar seeing his idea of who Six is. In neither case does this preclude something else acting like the person's idea of their former lover. For your information we've added details on many visions that weren't mentioned in the old, incorrectly-placed Internal-Six section. And indeed, even if if one or both of the Internals does turn out to be just a hallucination: (A) We don't know it yet so don't count your chickkens before they're hatched, (B) Who cares? They're still a plot-driving phenomenon even if it is just insanity. I also don't know what you mean with your "TV Guide' reference with the Internal-Baltar section.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 10:50, 26 March 2006 (EST)

::Please bring up something relevant instead of vague threats of a revert war. No, you have not brought up an official vote. The place for this is in the Analysis section of the '''Episode Guides''' as opposed to just making up a new page for random thoughts; this is not a forum, and on a more established mediawiki like MemoryAlpha, this page would have been deleted quite some time ago. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 00:17, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::: Then call for a vote. Until then, it shouldn't even be deleted then or dreamed of being deleted. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:18, 26 March 2006 (CST)
:::: [[Battlestar_Wiki:Tutorial_%28Keep_in_mind%29#Subject_matter]] - Should be taking a look at. Notable Subject Matter is something I like to point out before people check out this link. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 00:45, 26 March 2006 (CST)
::::: I'm not sure what part of that linked section you think supported your case. I vote with Merv. --[[User:CalculatinAvatar|CalculatinAvatar]] 02:11, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:I thank you, CalculatinAvatar. But Shane; encyclopedias are not a democracy; this is not a matter of informational content (we vote on things like that), but a question of wiki article standards, of "what justifies having an article" which is one of the more basic questions we run into. For example, someone could have a page devoted to "Does Cally Enjoy Cornmuffins?"; such a page could actually be based on things seen on screen, but would it justify an article? No. This is whole thing is just cut and pastes from other articles, or "Analysis" which should be put into the ''Episode Guide'' articles for analysis. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:50, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::As for adding the link to "Notable subject matter"; Shane this didn't prove anything; everyone if you click on the link it just leads to a page saying "subject content and what constitutes and article is a hotly debates issue"--->this does not support or go against your position either way, Shane. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 19:52, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:: Does it have anything to do with the plot? No, then it should not be included. However, periods of this {{PAGENAME}} happen because of the plot and effect the plot of the story. If I were to ask if brushing my teeth keep me away from having cavaities, I would say that is part of my plot. Something simple but part of my own plot. This is on a much grander scale. Also, just relizing this now, this takes down some of the size of Episode Guides. They are getting to long, and placing them on a sperate page, is what a Wiki does to conserve space so anyone can read it, even those people I know who still run a 56k modem. You keep saying no. If they didn't show it, then I would agree, but for some odd reasons they seem to a) change the music when Six shows up, b) have a real dramtic pan left or right shot to show Six has showen up again. These would be deleted scenes! As a fact, they are not. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 19:57, 26 March 2006 (CST)

:::The article has it's importance, in the three main types of hallucinations which do not really fit any category but this and are rather important to the plot, if not directly responsible for it. Despite some user's attempts to make it seem like foolish speculation, there is really none but in the section of analysis and questions, which is after all, for analysis and questions. It goes here because the episode guide is for episodes, not phenomena in them, though a small mention to point in the direction of the more explicit article dedicated solely to documenting the appearance and effects of the phenomena themeselves.--[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 27 March 2006

== Analysis is ''not'' limited to episode guides... ==

Just want to point out that analysis, contrary to the beliefs of some, is not limited to episode guides. In fact, as the series continues, I do not doubt that common themes will have their own articles. For instance, someone could conceivably come along and create an article on [[You reap what you sew]], which is a common theme in BSG. On such an article, they can describe the cause and effect of this theme. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] 21:35, 26 March 2006 (CST)

: Joe -- thank you for stating this point clearly. Pages that focus on recurring themes or distinctive phenomena, and draw together information from various episodes about those themes or phenomena on a single page, make perfect sense to me, '''even if the information in them is made up entirely of copies from episode pages'''. This page qualifies, IMO. And now, I'm really tempted to write (or at least get started) the article you suggest as an example, but I don't know if I'll have the time :-D--[[User:UncleMikey|Uncle Mikey]] 21:43, 26 March 2006 (CST)

::I see. In that case, I will add a cleanup-tag instead of asking for deletion.--[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]])

:: I have already done and seen considerable amounts of cleanup, and I sincerely welcome the efforts of others so long as the article is not butchered. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 13:12, 27 March 2006 (EST)

:::Not many edits since the tag was added. I guess it's ok to remove the tag? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 06:58, 6 April 2006 (CDT)

::::Let's leave it on as a compromise, just so first time visitors understand that there is shaky ground around this and the tag directs them to look at the points in this Discussion page. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 14:45, 6 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::Good idea.--[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 15:58, 6 April 2006 (EST)
::::::May *I* suggest a tag created called [[Template:DisputedFacts]]? --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:31, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
:::::::If a "fact" is "disputed" it's not a fact and we don't post it here. I thought our compromise was working fairly well. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 21:32, 17 April 2006 (CDT)
::::::::I also thought it was working well. --[[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] 22:48, 17 April 2006 (EST)
::::::::The tag suggestes active editing. There really isn't that much active editing on it, just a point of view problem. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 21:35, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

:::::::::If all parties consider the issue fairly presented in an NPOV manner from all relevant perspectives, then there's no need for a tag at all. c.f. [[Sacred Scrolls]]. --[[User:Peter Farago|Peter Farago]] 21:47, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

::::::::::The trouble is, I don't. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:22, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

I am still concerned about this. "Home, Part II" established that Baltar's internal Six isn't a "hallucination", so it doesn't seem fitting to put her under this title. --[[User:The Merovingian|The Merovingian]] ([[Special:Contributions/The Merovingian|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/The Merovingian|E]]) 23:30, 6 August 2006 (CDT)
:I have come up with a wild theory that Internal Six is not psychic, precognitive, etc. Baltar is and it manifests itself through Internal Six, which actually might raise more questions about him. If Internal Six is more than a hallucination, I think that she is not from the Cylons. I think that the end of Final Cut shows that. Cylons had no idea about Sharon and Hera. We may never exactly know the true nature of Internal Six, but I feel more comfortable with "hallucination." Just something to think about, I could be (and usually am) wrong. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 11:46, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

::I strongly believe that the Cylon process of becoming organic has caused ''something'' unexpected between Cylons and Colonials. It's as if a part of each of their souls have split off and was kept with the other. In particular, the event happens between a Cylon and a Colonial that have had near-death (or even death, as I've always believed) events ''at the same time'' (as Baltar and Caprica-Six have had). Tyrol and Boomer have had near-deaths, but not at the same time. Helo and Caprica-Valerii have not had such events. Both see their virtuals shortly after they return the abyss (Baltar's home, Caprica-Six's consciousness to the new body). Food for thought, but completely speculative. --[[User:Spencerian|Spencerian]] 16:02, 18 August 2006 (CDT)
:::Ah, under that theory, we have a kind of Minbari-Human thing going on here... well, sorta. Interesting. Where's a triluminary when you need one? -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|Joe Beaudoin]] [[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support|Donate]] 16:27, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

it is worth noting that Gaius exhibits symptoms such as: Paranoid Delusions (chip in head), Delusions of self worth/obsessive superstition (gods instrument, alleged prediction of Hera), Hallucinations (six), Disorganised speech (sometimes forced, varied syncopation) & sensory patterning (whenever he hallucinates, there is that ding ding ding music). To be flawed is to Human, the line between genius and insanity is thin. Is it possible the writers are trying to say something more profound, and not make us come up with far flung theories? --[[User:Acitcratna|Acitcratna]]

== Baltar as Cyclon god? ==

I have a theory about Baltar, sorry if this is an old one but I've not seen it anywhere before. What if Baltar (the original) is the Cylon god? He found the Cylon homeworld sometime before the events of the mini-series and helped the Cylons create their Human-like models. The Baltar with the fleet (and indeed the one on Caprica) are copies, possibly 'number 1' of the 12 models. Also, this is my first edit on this Wiki so please excuse me if this is the wrong place for this. --[[User:Deicist|Deicist]] 15:17, 31 August 2006 (CDT)
:[[Cylon agent speculation]] is a page about all the possaible cylons, but this is a neat theroy. However, RDM said that there was never a human copy. From the flawed tests of his Cylon detector, did indicate he was human. It's really iffy. A lot of stuff has contridicted that Baltar is not a cylon. --[[User:Shane|Shane]] ([[User_Talk:Shane|T]] - [[Special:Contributions/Shane|C]] - [[Special:Editcount/Shane|E]]) 15:32, 31 August 2006 (CDT)
::Personally, I think that the series loses "something" if Baltar is any more than a frakked up human being caught up in circumstances of his own making. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 16:40, 31 August 2006 (CDT)
:::The only characters who seem to be candidates for being the Cylon God (or part of it) are the Six & Baltar Hallucinations. They both basically controlled each faction (Cylons through Caprica Six, Humans through Baltar) into the position they are in right now (New Caprica), and it's all because of these two hallucinations. But either way, this is all speculation. --[[User:Sauron18|Sauron18]] 18:25, 31 August 2006 (CDT)
::::Sauron, that is a very astute observation. Food for thought. Although, I wonder if it some entity other than human or Cylon. --[[User:Gougef|FrankieG]] 18:48, 31 August 2006 (CDT)