Talk:Sharon Agathon/Archive 1

I'm not one to usually use the phrase "slam dunk", but this separation of the two Sharons into two character pages is Fantastic!--Ricimer 20:04, 27 January 2006 (EST)

Cylon "Agent"?

Maybe it's too soon to be certain, I don't think the template should state that Sharon Agathon is a Cylon AGENT. She's a Cylon, but a Colonial officer. She's not currently understood to be under the control of Cylon programming, so is she really their AGENT? If we changed the template for all cylons to say "(blank) is a Cylon" I think that would be the most accurate. It would also resonate with dialogues in many episodes like Doral ("I'm not a Cylon!"), Boomer ("I'm a frakking Cylon!"), and Baltar ("Am I a Cylon!?") --Rocky8311 06:24, 11 December 2006 (CST)

My two cents: Here, on Battlestar Wiki, "Cylon agent" is a humanoid Cylon, as opposed to a Cylon Centurion robot. As the Cylon agent article shows pictorally, this is a canonical term. While Agathon deserves special consideration, she is still a Cylon, albeit not by loyalty. In contrast, Baltar is working with the Cylons, if not "for." Would he be called anything else? Maybe. But, because of the limitations we must impose here for purposes of encyclopedic concision, it's better not to try to break and fix our templates for what's not really broken. Agathon's special exception is heavily noted throughout many articles. --Spencerian 07:00, 11 December 2006 (CST)

Yeah, it's used merely to represent them. Despite the fact that they're official name is simply "Cylons", since they are the basic form of that race, we use "Agents" to avoid any possible confusion. --Sauron18 07:04, 11 December 2006 (CST)

I would agree with Rocky8311's suggesting to rename the template to "(blank) is a Cylon". I wondered about that template a few times myself actually, and I really don't think that referring to every humanoid Cylon as an agent avoids confusion. Sloan 11:35, 11 December 2006 (CST)

I think "cylon agent" is both inaccurate and misleading, even if that is the template. The only thing that is for sure is that she is a cylon by race, and hence I think that should be the only thing stated. Thorn 02:11, 25 January 2007 (CST)

Ragnar Valerii

On re-viewing, it seems to me that Ragnar Valerii is almost certainly Caprica Valerii. Why else would she be wearing a Colonial flight suit? On the other hand, what is she doing all the way at Ragnar rather than preparing for her mission on Caprica? Are there so few of her that she had to pull double duty that week? --Peter Farago 18:36, 30 December 2005 (EST)

That shes wearing the uniform is more likely a mistake, they hadn't thought of Caprica Valerii when they made the mini-series. Still, the two being one and the same is a good way to explain away said mistake. Her Caprica misson wouldn't really take any preparation, and the Cylons would probably make very efficient use of personnel.--Undc23 19:18, 30 December 2005 (EST)

I disagree on this one. We know that there are dozens, nay, hundreds of duplicates of each Cylon model. Plus we don't know how they can share information. Further, Team Anders said that they had seen Cylons in uniform before, implying that it is not an uncommon sight or rare to see them in one. This combined with the other evidence leads me to thing that there is no real reason to assume one way or the other that it's the same one. --Ricimer 21:06, 30 December 2005 (EST)

Yeah, good points.--Undc23 23:47, 30 December 2005 (EST)

Sharon just likes to wear Colonial flight suits, just like Doral likes to wear Colonial professional attire and Six likes to wear sexy Colonial dresses. I mean, it's really an affectation for Cylons to wear *any* sort of human clothing—and given comfortable enough conditions, such as those on the interior of a Basestar, they don't. Philwelch 18:55, 31 December 2005 (EST)

Actually, I got the impression that the Sharons on the Basestar were all naked because they were "fresh off the assembly line", as it were.--Ricimer 20:49, 31 December 2005 (EST)

Basestars produce Cylons? I thought only the Resurrection Ship could do that (oops :-X) Philwelch 01:27, 1 January 2006 (EST)

I guess there are some consequences for making it all up as you go. --Peter Farago 02:19, 1 January 2006 (EST)

Or--Humano-Cylons are individuals and dress (or not) as individuals and groups. Those aboard the Basestar had formed a community of sorts which saw no particular reason for clothes. The Sharon at Ragnar was one of those who--for reasons of her own (identification with her "sleeper" sister perhaps?) decided to wear a flight suit. Zahir 12:45, 28 January 2006 (EST)

I'm pretty sure they were naked because it was warm, humid, and moist in there. And the Resurrection Ship doesn't produce new Cylons, it re-embodies old ones. All the Eights seen in Downloaded, besides Boomer, were in earth-tones. --Noneofyourbusiness 9:30, 4 March 2006 (EST)

The Resurrection Ship probably does produce new Cylons, both agents and raiders. It would make sense --Sauron18 21 March 2006

There was another nudey Eight on the basestar that Baltar is on too --Mercifull ^{(Talk/Contribs)} 03:35, 14 November 2006 (CST)

Caprica Sharon lies?

Is Caprica Sharon lying about what she knows about the Cylons, and what she knows about the members of Galactica? Manipulating Starbuck in Scar? It seems given what we learned about Cylons in Downloaded, she should not necessarily have the memories she claims to have. Huh? 10:31, 2 March 2006 (CST)

Matters of pure speculation; we've actually seen nothing that hints or implies that she is really hiding anything; personally, I don't think she is. --The Merovingian 13:22, 2 March 2006 (CST)

brotondi 14.5.06 This is a very interesting point which is not clear yet - and I think also the director will still work on this idea: How identical are copies? How does memory transfer between copies work? ... For me it was one of the greatest moments when Caprica Sharon says to Adama strangling her "And you ask WHY?" - for me referencing on the scene Adama cried on the dead Galactica Sharon. Is this reference not possible? Makes nothing, was great and for me: TV does not have to be 100% error free and exact. It has to be our pleasure, visualizing our imaginations, our ideas, our dreams... And it was time we got the answer from a question directed to a dead person :)

In the podcast, Ron Moore mentions that when Caprica-Sharon says "Why?" she is referring to Adama's question about "Why" humanity deserves to survive in the Miniseries, and that yeah it was confusing to put a scene of Adama asking "WHy" about something else in the same episode. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 18:45, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

Fiber Optics

Any speculation on how fiber optics could interface via the arm in such away that the interface wouldn't appear on medical scans? --Mitchy 11:16, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Grace speculated that it was nanotechnology in an interview. Noneofyourbusiness 21:53, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

Link? --Peter Farago 22:56, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

One of the three linked to on this thread: http://s9.invisionfree.com/Ragnar_Anchorage/index.php?showtopic=4672

I don't recall which. Noneofyourbusiness 08:07, 20 May 2006 (CDT)

Nomenclature (Galactica/Caprica-Sharon)

As stated in the article, it is becoming increasingly confusing to identify the two Eight models with their season one substitute names "Galactica-Sharon" and "Caprica-Sharon". Grace Park explained in several interviews, she herself – hence most of the crew presumably – began distinguishing them by calling Galactica-Sharon "Boomer" and Caprica-Sharon "Sharon". This seems to be a less bewildering (and more logical) way to designate both Cylons, therefore I would suggest at least to mention this form of distinction in the individual Number Eight articles or even to introduce "Boomer" and "Sharon" as generally acknowledged short names for the two characters within the Battlestar Wiki. --Enemy

Welcome to BattlestarWiki, Enemy. You were not here when we did this, but "Caprica-Sharon" and "Galactica-Sharon" are actually the names we assigned them to avoid confusion. Over the past few months, this convention has actually proved very helpful and I'm sorry if you weren't used to it when you first arrived. Grace Park's thing from that article is actually kind of confusing and I hope that one day she learns of our conventions----->More to the point, the production team itself started adopting this fan-naming convention when they started using the name "Caprica-Six" on air. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 14:18, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

The Merovingian is right, Enemy- Yes, the cast and crew use Boomer and Sharon, but that's more convienient in spoken conversation. When it comes to text, Galactica/Caprica distinction is simpler. Yes, both are a bit confusing, but they are confusing to different people-I know people who will have more of a problem with Boomer/Sharon than Caprica/Galactica. As for the interviews, Tricia Helfer has consistently used the term "humanoid Cylons" to describe herself, Lucy Lawless, and the other models, but it has not been established as the official term by anyone- if every member of the cast and crew used the Boomer/Sharon system, fine, but Eick and RDM have both called Boomer "Sharon", which proves it's no more official than our system.- Ragestorm 14:30, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

Well said Ragestorm. I mean her personal thing isn't widespread, RDM used both interchangeably, etc. However, by late season 2, they came up with the name "Caprica-Six", and if anyone here thinks that isn't a subtle reference to our fan naming convention, well, I mean it's not just here; Every website I've been on, official messageboards, GalacticaStation, we all just eventually started doing that. TelevisionwithoutPity.com formalized it, with a list of "Pegasus-Six = Six from Pegasus" etc etc etc. I personally think/hope that "Caprica-Six" is a sign that they've tacityly adopted the fan naming convention in the writers room. --The Merovingian ^{(C - E)} 14:44, 7 April 2006 (CDT)

Name

In Occupation, her name was given as Sharon Agathon. Should we rename the article to that? --BklynBruzer 21:21, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

I vote yes. --Talos 21:47, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

I concur. -- Joe Beaudoin ^{So say we all - Donate} 22:18, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

I agree as well. Finally we can have a clear diffeentiation! Making the change now. --Spencerian 22:59, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

In which case the other one should become simply Sharon Valerii. Noneofyourbusiness 00:23, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Disagree on that point, since there's still ambiguity present during the first two seasons. --Peter Farago 01:25, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Sharon Valerii (Caprica copy) redirects to Sharon Agathon, and Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy) will redirect to Sharon Valerii, so anyone searching using those terms will be okay. Anyone searching for Sharon Valerii will go to Boomer's page and see the disambiguation heading telling them to go to Sharon Agathon if they were looking for her, so that's no real problem. Also, wouldn't it be more precise for this page to be "Sharon Valerii Agathon", like "Cally Henderson Tyrol"? Noneofyourbusiness 09:29, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Cally, it would seem, chose to take her husband's name while keeping her maiden name. Sharon did not neccessarily go the same route, and may have dropped "Valerii" all together. As Adama used "Sharon Agathon" to swear her in, I say that's pretty good evidence that that is officially and legally her name. Unless she's referred to as "Sharon Valerii Agathon" in the future, I say we stick with this name. Alpha5099 11:15, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

That's what I was thinking. --Talos 11:17, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

That makes sense, but why don't we change Sharon Valerii (Galactica copy) to Sharon Valerii ("Boomer"), since that's a more accurate distinction, one which is actually used in the show. Noneofyourbusiness 11:58, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Well, we could make G-Boomer's page just "Sharon Valerii," since there is a Number Eight and Sharon Agathon page that distingushes the other models. --Talos 12:26, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

No. To repeat - someone searching for "Sharon Valerii" during the first two seasons should be sent to a disambig page, not G-Sharon's page. --Peter Farago 12:53, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Okay, I can understand that. I guess we could keep the title as it is now, that could work. --Talos 12:58, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Sharon Valerii ("Boomer") is the most logical title. She's called Boomer repeatedly on the show, never Galactica-Sharon. Sharon Agathon is always Sharon. Noneofyourbusiness 13:39, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

I'd settle for "Sharon "Boomer" Valerii", but I prefer the "(Galactica copy)" nomenclature, as it matches our current nomenclature for Cylon copies and is extendable to future copies. --Peter Farago 13:43, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Calling them by place names works well enough informally, but "Boomer" is a distinguishing point between them from the show itself, and is less confusing now that she's not on Galactica. The only Cylon officially referred to by place name nomenclature is Caprica-Six. Number Three, who calls that Six, "Caprica", calls Boomer, "Boomer". This is the nomenclature being used by the characters. Noneofyourbusiness 13:51, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Your argument is persuasive, but I'm a little concerned that S. Agathon will use "Boomer" as her call sign now that she's an officer. --Peter Farago 14:12, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Nothing points to that. I have a feeling that they'll reduce confusion by just keeping her as "Sharon". Noneofyourbusiness 14:42, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Or, she could easily just as much use another call sign for fear of the "taint" on the "Boomer" call sign. Hell, she may end up calling herself "Sheba". ^_^ Seriously, while I suspect that she'll end up with a call sign, I don't think it'll be Boomer, and I think we could easily assign that to G-Sharon.--み使い Mitsukai 10:49, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

On top of it, S&C states that we should use First Name Last Name unless the middle name is needed for disambiguation. BTW, do we have any canon source that Cally kept "Henderson" as her middle name, or did it just seem logical? --Peter Farago 12:51, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Also agree. --Peter Farago 01:24, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Regarding the callsign, in this transcript of a James Callis interview, she is referred to as Sharon "Athena" Agathon. Maybe Mitsukai is onto something! But probably just a typo... --Noindiecred 13:35, 12 October 2006 (CDT)

Let's wait until it's actually used in an official source. Sounds good, and I was hoping for a different callsign, although it means LOTS of disambiguration here. --Spencerian 19:58, 12 October 2006 (CDT)

"Valerii" was never her last name

This article has a name convention problem throughout the text. "Valerii" is used as her quasi maiden name, but she never used that surname at all (see Talk:Sharon Valerii). I'm not sure how to change it though. Two possible solutions would be (1) calling her "Sharon" until she is married to Helo which would be informal, but probably most accurate, or (2) calling her "Agathon" right from the start. Maybe you have other suggestions. -- Enemy 15:48, 29 October 2006 (CST)

The use of first names only is against BW:SAC because of issues with informality. While this character was on Caprica, she uses the Sharon Valerii identity (if not necessarily speaking it) with Helo. There are no other aliases for the Eight models. The use of "Caprica-Valerii" or simply Valerii, from an encyclopedic viewpoint in this article, minimizes confusion here. The article's content using her married name should change only in season 3 descriptions in her article. While Gina's name was never spoken in dialogue, it doesn't hold true that that was not the character's name, per numerous podcasts by Ron Moore. I would rather hold to convention here than to quibble over what is an already confusing process to differentiate the Cylon models. --Spencerian 13:23, 30 October 2006 (CST)

I strongly agree, she should not be called Valerii in the text. This is factually wrong and only creates unnecessary confusion. Formality should not be more important than accuracy. The best solution would be to use some clever phrases as long as she assumed Valerii's identity (This second Valerii ...) and then refer to her as Sharon, because that is her only known name at this point. It could even be explaining (and justified) in the text that she identified herself with that name to Helo. Sloan 09:27, 28 November 2006 (CST)

The number 8 model on Caprica during season one was using the Sharon Valerii identity, just as the Galactica copy was. That the Caprica agent didn't have much opportunity to use her last name isn't really relevant, in my opinion.--Hylas 10:59, 28 November 2006 (CST)

Of course she used Valerii's identity during season one, but I think it is inappropriate to use the name of an alias of hers in the text until events at the end of season two. When she identifies herself to Helo as a different Sharon, she should no longer be called Valerii. Sloan 11:52, 28 November 2006 (CST)

Pegasus

She frequently provides intelligence, but is severely mistreated by an interrogator from Pegasus who beats and sexually assaults her.

This makes it sound like it was a recurring thing. The Pegasus interrogator tried doing it only once, when he was stopped and killed by Helo and Tyrol. --DrBat 13:23, 8 November 2006 (CST)

No Photo in Uniform?

It's been months since the episode aired in which she was commissioned. Are there no good (close-up or profile) photos of her in a Colonial Fleet uniform? It would seem to be a significant improvement to her character bio if one were at the top of the page instead of her shackled pic.

Here's a small one, for instance.

- Keithustus 06:04, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Re-imagined Series definition: all-purpose vulgarism; Colonial version of "fuck" (see: frak)

Re-imagined Series definition: initial skills training; can refer to basic military indoctrination, and arms and ground training (TRS: "Fragged"); and basic flight training (TRS: "Miniseries")

Re-imagined Series definition: a nickname used as a substitute for an aviator's given name in wireless communications and in conversation