Talk:Lay Down Your Burdens, Part I/Archive 1 - Revision history

Joe Beaudoin Jr.: Text replacement - "Peter Farago" to "April Arcus"

2020-04-11T01:53:53Z

Text replacement - "Peter Farago" to "April Arcus"

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:53, 11 April 2020
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	Questions:		Questions:
	#Did we get the 20 raptor count in dialog?		#Did we get the 20 raptor count in dialog?
	#We lost Racetrack on the first jump and Raptor 612 on the last. The SAR team had 17 raptors after that, so if they started off with 20, they lost one other in between. Only Raptor 612 got up close and personal with the mountain. --[[User:~~Peter Farago~~\|~~Peter Farago~~]] 12:51, 4 March 2006 (CST)		#We lost Racetrack on the first jump and Raptor 612 on the last. The SAR team had 17 raptors after that, so if they started off with 20, they lost one other in between. Only Raptor 612 got up close and personal with the mountain. --[[User:April Arcus\|April Arcus]] 12:51, 4 March 2006 (CST)
	:No, Farago. She said "RaptorS 6, 12". They lost 2 in the final jump, 1 when Racetrack got lost, and none in between. Starbuck lists off two names. --[[User:The Merovingian\|The Merovingian]] 14:12, 4 March 2006 (CST)		:No, Farago. She said "RaptorS 6, 12". They lost 2 in the final jump, 1 when Racetrack got lost, and none in between. Starbuck lists off two names. --[[User:The Merovingian\|The Merovingian]] 14:12, 4 March 2006 (CST)
	:Counting the one they're in (Helo said something like "there are only 17 Raptors '''out there'''") it would have to be Raptor 612 (they've paused like that before in dialogue "Raptor 6..12").		:Counting the one they're in (Helo said something like "there are only 17 Raptors '''out there'''") it would have to be Raptor 612 (they've paused like that before in dialogue "Raptor 6..12").
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	:::#...and Starbuck.		:::#...and Starbuck.
	:::I suppose the raptor piloted by "Toughguy" and "Carousel" makes 20. I also hear an unintellgable name between "Swordsman" and "Shoestrap", but I can't actually hear "Toughguy" either - they might be the same person. I think it's worth noting that [[Stubbs]] isn't on this list - this reinforces my opinion that he was the pilot killed in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I", but I suppose it's possible that he's still around and just opted out of the mission.		:::I suppose the raptor piloted by "Toughguy" and "Carousel" makes 20. I also hear an unintellgable name between "Swordsman" and "Shoestrap", but I can't actually hear "Toughguy" either - they might be the same person. I think it's worth noting that [[Stubbs]] isn't on this list - this reinforces my opinion that he was the pilot killed in "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Part I", but I suppose it's possible that he's still around and just opted out of the mission.
	:::--[[User:~~Peter Farago~~\|~~Peter Farago~~]] 14:00, 5 March 2006 (CST)		:::--[[User:April Arcus\|April Arcus]] 14:00, 5 March 2006 (CST)

	::::I'm confused - I don't remember hearing that many checkins. The only time I recall them doing it, I heard at most a couple followed by Racetrack and then they were done. -[[User:CWD\|CWD]] 22:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)		::::I'm confused - I don't remember hearing that many checkins. The only time I recall them doing it, I heard at most a couple followed by Racetrack and then they were done. -[[User:CWD\|CWD]] 22:48, 5 March 2006 (CST)

Dogger55: /* Raptor Count Discussion 1 */

2011-07-04T03:42:02Z

Raptor Count Discussion 1

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	::::And just to chime in, if there were only 17 raptors, then Kara would have had to scrub the mission, so 18 did land on Caprica. --[[User:LindyChef\|LindyChef]] 23:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)		::::And just to chime in, if there were only 17 raptors, then Kara would have had to scrub the mission, so 18 did land on Caprica. --[[User:LindyChef\|LindyChef]] 23:05, 6 March 2006 (CST)

			*When Racetrack gets misplaced, Starbuck says, "Mission rules say we keep going ''unless'' we lose three, . . ." Had they lost two more on the final jump, they would have aborted. [[User:Dogger55\|Dogger55]] 23:42, 3 July 2011 (EDT)

	== Raptor Count Discussion 2 ==		== Raptor Count Discussion 2 ==

Bgii 2000 at 08:45, 15 June 2008

2008-06-15T08:45:08Z

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	== Raptor Count Discussion 3 ==		== Raptor Count Discussion 3 ==
	At 33:40 or so there is a CG shot clearly showing a total of 20 Raptors. Since this takes place ''after'' Racetrack is left behind, this puts the total original count at ''21''. A continuity error perhaps? -[[User:Bgii 2000\|Bgii 2000]] 08:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)		At 33:40, or so, there is a CG shot clearly showing a total of 20 Raptors. Since this takes place ''after'' Racetrack is left behind, this puts the total original count at ''21''. A continuity error perhaps? Then again this works with the two-Raptors-in-the-mountain theory. 17+1(Starbuck)+2(crashed)+1(racetrack) = 21 -[[User:Bgii 2000\|Bgii 2000]] 08:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Bgii 2000 at 08:39, 15 June 2008

2008-06-15T08:39:25Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:39, 15 June 2008
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	The checkins were in the background while Helo talked to Sharon. Additionally, they did only lose one Raptor (Helo continually refers to losing one Raptor, in the singular) and his exact line was "they jumped inside the mountain". [[User:Philwelch\|Philwelch]] 12:38, 7 March 2006 (CST)		The checkins were in the background while Helo talked to Sharon. Additionally, they did only lose one Raptor (Helo continually refers to losing one Raptor, in the singular) and his exact line was "they jumped inside the mountain". [[User:Philwelch\|Philwelch]] 12:38, 7 March 2006 (CST)
	~~:::::~~At 33:40 or so there is a CG shot clearly showing a total of 20 Raptors. Since this takes place after Racetrack is left behind, this puts the total original count at 21. A continuity error perhaps? [[User:Bgii 2000\|Bgii 2000]] 08:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

			== Raptor Count Discussion 3 ==
			At 33:40 or so there is a CG shot clearly showing a total of 20 Raptors. Since this takes place ''after'' Racetrack is left behind, this puts the total original count at ''21''. A continuity error perhaps? -[[User:Bgii 2000\|Bgii 2000]] 08:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Bgii 2000 at 08:36, 15 June 2008

2008-06-15T08:36:25Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:36, 15 June 2008
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	The checkins were in the background while Helo talked to Sharon. Additionally, they did only lose one Raptor (Helo continually refers to losing one Raptor, in the singular) and his exact line was "they jumped inside the mountain". [[User:Philwelch\|Philwelch]] 12:38, 7 March 2006 (CST)		The checkins were in the background while Helo talked to Sharon. Additionally, they did only lose one Raptor (Helo continually refers to losing one Raptor, in the singular) and his exact line was "they jumped inside the mountain". [[User:Philwelch\|Philwelch]] 12:38, 7 March 2006 (CST)
			:::::At 33:40 or so there is a CG shot clearly showing a total of 20 Raptors. Since this takes place after Racetrack is left behind, this puts the total original count at 21. A continuity error perhaps? [[User:Bgii 2000\|Bgii 2000]] 08:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Catrope: Earth --> Earth (RDM)

2007-05-01T13:41:20Z

Earth --> Earth (RDM)

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	== Earth? ==		== Earth? ==
	Is the planet in this episode [[Earth]]? -- [[User:John-1107\|John-1107]] 09:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)		Is the planet in this episode [[Earth (RDM)\|Earth]]? -- [[User:John-1107\|John-1107]] 09:06, 4 March 2006 (CST)

	:No. The leaders know roughly where Earth is, and it's very far away from their current position. [[User:JohnH\|JohnH]] 09:13, 4 March 2006 (CST)		:No. The leaders know roughly where Earth is, and it's very far away from their current position. [[User:JohnH\|JohnH]] 09:13, 4 March 2006 (CST)

JohnH: /* Racetrack's jump — a Cylon plot? */

2006-03-18T00:23:26Z

Racetrack's jump — a Cylon plot?

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:23, 18 March 2006
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	:Granted, the infinite vastness of space makes this event '''''extremely''''' far-fetched. It would have been far more believeable had Racetrack's Raptor jumped into "no-wheresville", with absolutely nothing around. But this is a Sci-fi drama, and where's the fun in that? Instead, the writers will give luck & chance a bit of a nudge, and have our heroes hit the ball on the first swing. I completely believe that the Cylons didn't know that this planet existed (or if they did, it wasn't on their priority shopping list), and wouldn't have known '''''had not'''''' Gina-Six detonated that nuclear warhead (In the buff, too! Wow, no tan lines!). The Cylons have already admitted that they are particularly attuned to/affected by radiation and thermonuclear events, so it stands to reason that the sensor arrays on their BaseStars would be hyper-sensitive to any thermonuclear events nearby. -- [[User:Hawke\|Hawke]] 10:09, 17 March 2006 (CST)</font>		:Granted, the infinite vastness of space makes this event '''''extremely''''' far-fetched. It would have been far more believeable had Racetrack's Raptor jumped into "no-wheresville", with absolutely nothing around. But this is a Sci-fi drama, and where's the fun in that? Instead, the writers will give luck & chance a bit of a nudge, and have our heroes hit the ball on the first swing. I completely believe that the Cylons didn't know that this planet existed (or if they did, it wasn't on their priority shopping list), and wouldn't have known '''''had not'''''' Gina-Six detonated that nuclear warhead (In the buff, too! Wow, no tan lines!). The Cylons have already admitted that they are particularly attuned to/affected by radiation and thermonuclear events, so it stands to reason that the sensor arrays on their BaseStars would be hyper-sensitive to any thermonuclear events nearby. -- [[User:Hawke\|Hawke]] 10:09, 17 March 2006 (CST)</font>

			''I think you are grasping at straws with these hypothesese.''

			I don't get other sources of information outside the show as aired and this Wiki. I'm looking at what we saw onscreen and wondering if there are other things going on besides the obvious. You can say that's too much green eyeshade (which is quite possibly an unfashionable accessory to a tinfoil hat) in this case, but I don't consider it grasping at straws. Please read on.

			''The error that caused the misjump wasn't a typical FTL error, but an error caused by forcing the raptor to jump a distance by far greater than it was initially designed to jump, let's say for example 10 times.''

			Do you have evidence for this? It's a good thought. In my mind, they were ''given'' the wrong coordinates by the {nav computer / Sharon}. I don't have any evidence for that -- it's just what occurred to me. If there were good evidence this was instead a component failure, then the tinfoil hypothesis loses a lot of backing. But wouldn't such a component failure leave them "Lost in Space" with no idea where they were? How would they then get back? If, instead, they really jumped to the designated (bad) coordinates, at least they'd have a chance of retracing their steps, '''which they did'''. So the evidence, as I see it, is that they were ''given'' the wrong coordinates in the first place. It's a simpler explanation for how they got back.

			<font style="color: #d1d0a5;">''it stands to reason that the sensor arrays on their BaseStars would be hyper-sensitive to any thermonuclear events nearby''</font>

			After a year it's no longer "nearby". I don't know nuclear physics all that well, but I suspect the volume of the nuke to be around 800 cm^3, from visual inspection of the "device" and a very helpful [[Wikipedia:Nuclear weapon design\|Wikipedia article]]. Figuring 10^26 atoms per cm^3 (and this is generous) that means there were about 810^28 atoms in the device. Peak fission explosion efficiency is 25%, or 210^28 "participating" atoms, and if you build a very good device you'll get 3 neutrons released per atom, or about 610^28 neutrons released in a 25%-efficient explosion. That's a lot of neutrons, but they have to fill a sphere of 1 light-year radius, 10^55 cm^3. Their density would be about 610^-27, well below the 10^-5 or so typical empty space density. In other words, invisible.

			Now that's just the neutrons and doesn't say anything about the X-rays, gamma rays etc. But I have to assume similar logic will lead to similar conclusions. A fixed amount of "evidence" followed by a year of travel in 3 dimensions dilutes the concentration of radiation well below the ambient levels even in empty space. So I don't buy the "it stands to reason" line of reasoning above.

			Admittedly you guys may be correct; pehaps the Cylons spoke the truth etc., etc. But that amounts to granting the writers a '''''lot''''' of artistic license. And that's OK if it advances the storyline without screaming '''"writer's block"'''. But you know, the "conspiracy theory" advances the storyline just as well -- without appeal to as much artistic license. --[[User:JohnH\|JohnH]] 18:23, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Hawke: /* Racetrack's jump — a Cylon plot? */ ugh... bad morning for spelling

2006-03-17T16:14:30Z

Racetrack's jump — a Cylon plot?: ugh... bad morning for spelling

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:14, 17 March 2006
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	I find this explanation more believable than the ''triple'' coincidence of the wrong jump coordinates, then two races finding the same remote, "hidden" planet (they should have called it [[Wikipedia:Gondolin\|Gondolin]]) within a year of one another. One event: coincidence. Two events: suspicious. Three events: enemy action. --[[User:JohnH\|JohnH]] 19:43, 16 March 2006 (CST)		I find this explanation more believable than the ''triple'' coincidence of the wrong jump coordinates, then two races finding the same remote, "hidden" planet (they should have called it [[Wikipedia:Gondolin\|Gondolin]]) within a year of one another. One event: coincidence. Two events: suspicious. Three events: enemy action. --[[User:JohnH\|JohnH]] 19:43, 16 March 2006 (CST)

	:I think you are grasping at straws with these hypothesese. We need more understanding onscreen about the working of cylon systems before we can say that such internal thinking is happening. In any case, it doesn't seem plausible that such detailed planning is going on in lower subsystems. The error that caused the misjump wasn't a typical FTL error, but an error caused by forcing the raptor to jump a distance by far greater than it was initially designed to jump, let's say for example 10 times. Forcing a system to exceed its original limitations will most certainly cause errors to occur. Remember, their success rate was 18 successful raptors out of 20, only 90%. The only coinsodence that truly is a coincidence is finding the planet in the first place, but if you've watched enough movies and shows, coincidences are part of fictional programming and should be expected. And yes, space is vast, but that nuclear explosion was a big explosion and today we are now detecting Brown Dwarfs (sub-stars) now that don't even have nuclear reactions going with todays telescopes. So far the Cylons to detect a nuclear explosion from 1 light year out seems fairly reasonable. They didn't see the planet, they saw the radiation produced by the explosion traveling at the speed of light to the location their search party was at. --[[User:StrayCat0\|StrayCat0]] 08:53, 17 March 2006 (MST)		:I think you are grasping at straws with these hypothesese. We need more understanding onscreen about the working of cylon systems before we can say that such internal thinking is happening. In any case, it doesn't seem plausible that such detailed planning is going on in lower subsystems. The error that caused the misjump wasn't a typical FTL error, but an error caused by forcing the raptor to jump a distance by far greater than it was initially designed to jump, let's say for example 10 times. Forcing a system to exceed its original limitations will most certainly cause errors to occur. Remember, their success rate was 18 successful raptors out of 20, only 90%. The only coinsodence that truly is a coincidence is finding the planet in the first place, but if you've watched enough movies and shows, coincidences are part of fictional programming and should be expected. And yes, space is vast, but that nuclear explosion was a big explosion and today we are now detecting Brown Dwarfs (sub-stars) now that don't even have nuclear reactions going with todays telescopes. So far the Cylons to detect a nuclear explosion from 1 light year out seems fairly reasonable. They didn't see the planet, they saw the radiation produced by the explosion traveling at the speed of light to the location their search party was at. --[[User:StrayCat0\|StrayCat0]] 08:53, 17 March 2006 (MST)

	:Why is chance and luck (or, good fortune) so hard to believe? And what are these "triple coincidences" of which you speak? There ''are'' such things as "benevolent accidents" or "chance encounters", wherein a number gets transposed and it results in something completely different than what you expected. Take something as innocuous as a phone number &ndash 555-2435. You transpose the number to 555-2345, and dial. Are you going to get the person or party you expected? No. But hey, you might stumble upon someone ''else'' that you didn't expect, and find out that that number belongs to a Chinese restaurant (you were expecting a Pizza joint), or a bank, or ... maybe a hot-sounding chick. Who knows? It happens all the time.		: <font style="color: #d1d0a5;">Why is chance and luck (or, good fortune) so hard to believe? And what are these "triple coincidences" of which you speak? There ''are'' such things as "benevolent accidents" or "chance encounters", wherein a number gets transposed and it results in something completely different than what you expected. Take something as innocuous as a phone number –such as 555-2435. You transpose the number to 555-2345, and dial. Are you going to get the person or party you expected? No. But hey, you might stumble upon someone ''else'' that you didn't expect, and find out that that number belongs to a Chinese restaurant (you were expecting a Pizza joint), or a bank, or ... maybe a hot-sounding chick. Who knows? It happens all the time.

	:Granted, the infinite vastness of space makes this event '''''extremely''''' far-fetched. It would have been far more believeable had Racetrack's Raptor jumped into "no-wheresville", with absolutely nothing around. But this is a Sci-fi drama, and where's the fun in that? Instead, the writers will give luck & chance a bit of a nudge, and have our heroes hit the ball on the first swing. I completely believe that the Cylons didn't know that this planet existed (or if they did, it wasn't on their priority shopping list), and wouldn't have known '''''had not'''''' Gina-Six detonated that nuclear warhead (In the buff, too! Wow, no tan lines!). The Cylons have already admitted that they are particularly attuned to/affected by radiation and thermonuclear events, so it stands to reason that the sensor arrays on their BaseStars would be hyper-sensitive to any thermonuclear events nearby. -- [[User:Hawke\|Hawke]] 10:09, 17 March 2006 (CST)		:Granted, the infinite vastness of space makes this event '''''extremely''''' far-fetched. It would have been far more believeable had Racetrack's Raptor jumped into "no-wheresville", with absolutely nothing around. But this is a Sci-fi drama, and where's the fun in that? Instead, the writers will give luck & chance a bit of a nudge, and have our heroes hit the ball on the first swing. I completely believe that the Cylons didn't know that this planet existed (or if they did, it wasn't on their priority shopping list), and wouldn't have known '''''had not'''''' Gina-Six detonated that nuclear warhead (In the buff, too! Wow, no tan lines!). The Cylons have already admitted that they are particularly attuned to/affected by radiation and thermonuclear events, so it stands to reason that the sensor arrays on their BaseStars would be hyper-sensitive to any thermonuclear events nearby. -- [[User:Hawke\|Hawke]] 10:09, 17 March 2006 (CST)</font>

Hawke: /* Racetrack's jump — a Cylon plot? */

2006-03-17T16:09:52Z

Racetrack's jump — a Cylon plot?

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:09, 17 March 2006
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	I find this explanation more believable than the ''triple'' coincidence of the wrong jump coordinates, then two races finding the same remote, "hidden" planet (they should have called it [[Wikipedia:Gondolin\|Gondolin]]) within a year of one another. One event: coincidence. Two events: suspicious. Three events: enemy action. --[[User:JohnH\|JohnH]] 19:43, 16 March 2006 (CST)		I find this explanation more believable than the ''triple'' coincidence of the wrong jump coordinates, then two races finding the same remote, "hidden" planet (they should have called it [[Wikipedia:Gondolin\|Gondolin]]) within a year of one another. One event: coincidence. Two events: suspicious. Three events: enemy action. --[[User:JohnH\|JohnH]] 19:43, 16 March 2006 (CST)
	:I think you are grasping at straws with these hypothesese. We need more understanding onscreen about the working of cylon systems before we can say that such internal thinking is happening. In any case, it doesn't seem plausible that such detailed planning is going on in lower subsystems. The error that caused the misjump wasn't a typical FTL error, but an error caused by forcing the raptor to jump a distance by far greater than it was initially designed to jump, let's say for example 10 times. Forcing a system to exceed its original limitations will most certainly cause errors to occur. Remember, their success rate was 18 successful raptors out of 20, only 90%. The only coinsodence that truly is a coincidence is finding the planet in the first place, but if you've watched enough movies and shows, coincidences are part of fictional programming and should be expected. And yes, space is vast, but that nuclear explosion was a big explosion and today we are now detecting Brown Dwarfs (sub-stars) now that don't even have nuclear reactions going with todays telescopes. So far the Cylons to detect a nuclear explosion from 1 light year out seems fairly reasonable. They didn't see the planet, they saw the radiation produced by the explosion traveling at the speed of light to the location their search party was at. --[[User:StrayCat0\|StrayCat0]] 08:53, 17 March 2006 (MST)		:I think you are grasping at straws with these hypothesese. We need more understanding onscreen about the working of cylon systems before we can say that such internal thinking is happening. In any case, it doesn't seem plausible that such detailed planning is going on in lower subsystems. The error that caused the misjump wasn't a typical FTL error, but an error caused by forcing the raptor to jump a distance by far greater than it was initially designed to jump, let's say for example 10 times. Forcing a system to exceed its original limitations will most certainly cause errors to occur. Remember, their success rate was 18 successful raptors out of 20, only 90%. The only coinsodence that truly is a coincidence is finding the planet in the first place, but if you've watched enough movies and shows, coincidences are part of fictional programming and should be expected. And yes, space is vast, but that nuclear explosion was a big explosion and today we are now detecting Brown Dwarfs (sub-stars) now that don't even have nuclear reactions going with todays telescopes. So far the Cylons to detect a nuclear explosion from 1 light year out seems fairly reasonable. They didn't see the planet, they saw the radiation produced by the explosion traveling at the speed of light to the location their search party was at. --[[User:StrayCat0\|StrayCat0]] 08:53, 17 March 2006 (MST)

			:Why is chance and luck (or, good fortune) so hard to believe? And what are these "triple coincidences" of which you speak? There ''are'' such things as "benevolent accidents" or "chance encounters", wherein a number gets transposed and it results in something completely different than what you expected. Take something as innocuous as a phone number &ndash 555-2435. You transpose the number to 555-2345, and dial. Are you going to get the person or party you expected? No. But hey, you might stumble upon someone ''else'' that you didn't expect, and find out that that number belongs to a Chinese restaurant (you were expecting a Pizza joint), or a bank, or ... maybe a hot-sounding chick. Who knows? It happens all the time.

			:Granted, the infinite vastness of space makes this event '''''extremely''''' far-fetched. It would have been far more believeable had Racetrack's Raptor jumped into "no-wheresville", with absolutely nothing around. But this is a Sci-fi drama, and where's the fun in that? Instead, the writers will give luck & chance a bit of a nudge, and have our heroes hit the ball on the first swing. I completely believe that the Cylons didn't know that this planet existed (or if they did, it wasn't on their priority shopping list), and wouldn't have known '''''had not'''''' Gina-Six detonated that nuclear warhead (In the buff, too! Wow, no tan lines!). The Cylons have already admitted that they are particularly attuned to/affected by radiation and thermonuclear events, so it stands to reason that the sensor arrays on their BaseStars would be hyper-sensitive to any thermonuclear events nearby. -- [[User:Hawke\|Hawke]] 10:09, 17 March 2006 (CST)

Hawke: I did _NOT_ change/alter any content. I only re-ordered and grouped like threads into segments for ease of reading & indexing (via internal TOC). The scrolling was _killing_ me.

2006-03-17T15:47:36Z

I did _NOT_ change/alter any content. I only re-ordered and grouped like threads into segments for ease of reading & indexing (via internal TOC). The scrolling was _killing_ me.

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