Talk:Hadrian/Archive 1 - Revision history

Joe Beaudoin Jr.: /* Any clarification yet? */ reply

2008-12-15T05:22:24Z

Any clarification yet?: reply

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	Since Joe now has access to production materials and staff, has anything been found to document the assertion that tan uniforms are warrant officers, what rank Hadrian is, etc.? -- [[User:Fredmdbud\|Fredmdbud]] 04:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)		Since Joe now has access to production materials and staff, has anything been found to document the assertion that tan uniforms are warrant officers, what rank Hadrian is, etc.? -- [[User:Fredmdbud\|Fredmdbud]] 04:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
			: Tan uniforms are worn by warrant officers with the warrant officer pin. Sgt. Hadrian is the only exception to the rule, as she wears Sergeant pins. -- [[User:Joe Beaudoin Jr.\|Joe Beaudoin]] <sup>[[User talk:Joe Beaudoin Jr.\|So say we all]] - [[Battlestar Wiki:Site support\|Donate]] - [[bsp:\|Battlestar Pegasus]]</sup> 05:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Fredmdbud: /* Any clarification yet? */ new section

2008-12-15T04:48:59Z

Any clarification yet?: new section

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	[[User:Grandmaester314\|Grandmaester314]] 18:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)		[[User:Grandmaester314\|Grandmaester314]] 18:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
	:Warrant officer is rank, not a position. She can't be both a sergeant and a warrant officer. WOs are basically senior NCOs who hold a status similar to officers, but are a group of their own between NCOs and officers. The staff sergeant thing came from a comparison of her rank insignia with established ones and its assumed equivalence with PO1 (sergeant would be the same as PO2 and that has a different insignia), as well the very clear implication that Tyrol outranks her. According to Joe's completely different list, she'd be "sergeant first class". It's never been stated that she's Marine actually, so if the CF used the rank of sergeant as well, that would make sense too. But yeah, for now just leaving it at "sergeant" is the best. If and when we decide to change the overall rank chart, we can still change this. You changed it over early, but that made the page inconsistent with the rank article. Though, all in all, it's a very minor issue. -- [[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 18:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)		:Warrant officer is rank, not a position. She can't be both a sergeant and a warrant officer. WOs are basically senior NCOs who hold a status similar to officers, but are a group of their own between NCOs and officers. The staff sergeant thing came from a comparison of her rank insignia with established ones and its assumed equivalence with PO1 (sergeant would be the same as PO2 and that has a different insignia), as well the very clear implication that Tyrol outranks her. According to Joe's completely different list, she'd be "sergeant first class". It's never been stated that she's Marine actually, so if the CF used the rank of sergeant as well, that would make sense too. But yeah, for now just leaving it at "sergeant" is the best. If and when we decide to change the overall rank chart, we can still change this. You changed it over early, but that made the page inconsistent with the rank article. Though, all in all, it's a very minor issue. -- [[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 18:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

			== Any clarification yet? ==

			Since Joe now has access to production materials and staff, has anything been found to document the assertion that tan uniforms are warrant officers, what rank Hadrian is, etc.? -- [[User:Fredmdbud\|Fredmdbud]] 04:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Serenity: /* Sergeant or warrant officer */

2008-09-04T18:45:01Z

Sergeant or warrant officer

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	I don't know how to comment in the history log like everybody else seems to be doing so, since it bears on this topic I'll make mine here. I'll go along with Serenity and just leave her rank as Sergeant for now but that in no way indicates that I think that is her definite rank because I don't. I think that she is most likely either a warrant officer or an NCO of the level of a USMC Staff Sergeant, since we can't conclude which one or what the exact name for the CMC equivilent for Staff Sergeant is I think it makes sense to just list her rank as "Sergeant" in the near term since that is how she is always refered to in the show.		I don't know how to comment in the history log like everybody else seems to be doing so, since it bears on this topic I'll make mine here. I'll go along with Serenity and just leave her rank as Sergeant for now but that in no way indicates that I think that is her definite rank because I don't. I think that she is most likely either a warrant officer or an NCO of the level of a USMC Staff Sergeant, since we can't conclude which one or what the exact name for the CMC equivilent for Staff Sergeant is I think it makes sense to just list her rank as "Sergeant" in the near term since that is how she is always refered to in the show.
	[[User:Grandmaester314\|Grandmaester314]] 18:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)		[[User:Grandmaester314\|Grandmaester314]] 18:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
	:Warrant officer is rank, not a position. She can't be both a sergeant and a warrant officer. WOs are basically senior NCOs who hold a status similar to officers, but are a group of their own between NCOs and ~~officer~~.-- [[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 18:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)		:Warrant officer is rank, not a position. She can't be both a sergeant and a warrant officer. WOs are basically senior NCOs who hold a status similar to officers, but are a group of their own between NCOs and officers. The staff sergeant thing came from a comparison of her rank insignia with established ones and its assumed equivalence with PO1 (sergeant would be the same as PO2 and that has a different insignia), as well the very clear implication that Tyrol outranks her. According to Joe's completely different list, she'd be "sergeant first class". It's never been stated that she's Marine actually, so if the CF used the rank of sergeant as well, that would make sense too. But yeah, for now just leaving it at "sergeant" is the best. If and when we decide to change the overall rank chart, we can still change this. You changed it over early, but that made the page inconsistent with the rank article. Though, all in all, it's a very minor issue. -- [[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 18:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Serenity: /* Sergeant or warrant officer */

2008-09-04T18:24:54Z

Sergeant or warrant officer

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	I don't know how to comment in the history log like everybody else seems to be doing so, since it bears on this topic I'll make mine here. I'll go along with Serenity and just leave her rank as Sergeant for now but that in no way indicates that I think that is her definite rank because I don't. I think that she is most likely either a warrant officer or an NCO of the level of a USMC Staff Sergeant, since we can't conclude which one or what the exact name for the CMC equivilent for Staff Sergeant is I think it makes sense to just list her rank as "Sergeant" in the near term since that is how she is always refered to in the show.		I don't know how to comment in the history log like everybody else seems to be doing so, since it bears on this topic I'll make mine here. I'll go along with Serenity and just leave her rank as Sergeant for now but that in no way indicates that I think that is her definite rank because I don't. I think that she is most likely either a warrant officer or an NCO of the level of a USMC Staff Sergeant, since we can't conclude which one or what the exact name for the CMC equivilent for Staff Sergeant is I think it makes sense to just list her rank as "Sergeant" in the near term since that is how she is always refered to in the show.
	[[User:Grandmaester314\|Grandmaester314]] 18:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)		[[User:Grandmaester314\|Grandmaester314]] 18:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
			:Warrant officer is rank, not a position. She can't be both a sergeant and a warrant officer. WOs are basically senior NCOs who hold a status similar to officers, but are a group of their own between NCOs and officer.-- [[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 18:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaester314 at 18:15, 4 September 2008

2008-09-04T18:15:41Z

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	:::If we can cite this somehow, it might be worth noting here and on the uniform page, but maybe we shouldn't change everything according to it. Maybe the production crew thinks of it this way, but even if it can be proven first hand, it just doesn't make much sense. At times, I've though there are a bit too many people in khaki uniforms for all of them to be Marines (in stationed in CIC for example), but making all of them Warrant Officers isn't a satisfactory solution to that either, given that BSG tries to stay relatively close to real-life militaries. --[[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 03:03, 20 December 2007 (CST)		:::If we can cite this somehow, it might be worth noting here and on the uniform page, but maybe we shouldn't change everything according to it. Maybe the production crew thinks of it this way, but even if it can be proven first hand, it just doesn't make much sense. At times, I've though there are a bit too many people in khaki uniforms for all of them to be Marines (in stationed in CIC for example), but making all of them Warrant Officers isn't a satisfactory solution to that either, given that BSG tries to stay relatively close to real-life militaries. --[[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 03:03, 20 December 2007 (CST)

	I don't know how to ~~comments~~ in the history log like everybody else seems to be ~~doings~~ so since it bears on this topic I'll make mine here. I'll go along with ~~serenity~~ and just leave her rank as Sergeant by now but that in no way indicates that I think that is her ~~definate~~ rank because I don't. I think most likely ~~she is~~ either a warrant officer or an NCO of the level of a USMC Staff Sergeant, since we can't conclude which one or what the exact name for the CMC equivilent for Staff Sergeant I think it makes sense to ~~go with~~ Sergeant in the near term.		I don't know how to comment in the history log like everybody else seems to be doing so, since it bears on this topic I'll make mine here. I'll go along with Serenity and just leave her rank as Sergeant for now but that in no way indicates that I think that is her definite rank because I don't. I think that she is most likely either a warrant officer or an NCO of the level of a USMC Staff Sergeant, since we can't conclude which one or what the exact name for the CMC equivilent for Staff Sergeant is I think it makes sense to just list her rank as "Sergeant" in the near term since that is how she is always refered to in the show.
	[[User:Grandmaester314\|Grandmaester314]] 18:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)		[[User:Grandmaester314\|Grandmaester314]] 18:15, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaester314 at 18:12, 4 September 2008

2008-09-04T18:12:48Z

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	:::The note that "a WO can hold the rank of flight sergeant", doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The details differ greatly over time and countries, but even the British armed forces WO seems to be a rank in itself, not a position (as already noted). Also, being a Marine and a WO wouldn't be mutually exclusive. It's just a rank within a branch.		:::The note that "a WO can hold the rank of flight sergeant", doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The details differ greatly over time and countries, but even the British armed forces WO seems to be a rank in itself, not a position (as already noted). Also, being a Marine and a WO wouldn't be mutually exclusive. It's just a rank within a branch.
	:::If we can cite this somehow, it might be worth noting here and on the uniform page, but maybe we shouldn't change everything according to it. Maybe the production crew thinks of it this way, but even if it can be proven first hand, it just doesn't make much sense. At times, I've though there are a bit too many people in khaki uniforms for all of them to be Marines (in stationed in CIC for example), but making all of them Warrant Officers isn't a satisfactory solution to that either, given that BSG tries to stay relatively close to real-life militaries. --[[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 03:03, 20 December 2007 (CST)		:::If we can cite this somehow, it might be worth noting here and on the uniform page, but maybe we shouldn't change everything according to it. Maybe the production crew thinks of it this way, but even if it can be proven first hand, it just doesn't make much sense. At times, I've though there are a bit too many people in khaki uniforms for all of them to be Marines (in stationed in CIC for example), but making all of them Warrant Officers isn't a satisfactory solution to that either, given that BSG tries to stay relatively close to real-life militaries. --[[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 03:03, 20 December 2007 (CST)

			I don't know how to comments in the history log like everybody else seems to be doings so since it bears on this topic I'll make mine here. I'll go along with serenity and just leave her rank as Sergeant by now but that in no way indicates that I think that is her definate rank because I don't. I think most likely she is either a warrant officer or an NCO of the level of a USMC Staff Sergeant, since we can't conclude which one or what the exact name for the CMC equivilent for Staff Sergeant I think it makes sense to go with Sergeant in the near term.
			[[User:Grandmaester314\|Grandmaester314]] 18:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Serenity: /* Sergeant or warrant officer */ Clarification

2007-12-21T14:48:35Z

Sergeant or warrant officer: Clarification

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	::For me, this is more a matter of consistency; when is a sergeant just a sergeant, and when is a sergeant a warrant officer? Is this a retro-active change going forward? And I make no argument about hewing to perfect equivalence to reality (that's why I included the "where it doesn't directly conflict the older series" caveat), RDM's already mentioned his rationale in his blog. --[[User:Fredmdbud\|Fredmdbud]] 02:54, 20 December 2007 (CST)		::For me, this is more a matter of consistency; when is a sergeant just a sergeant, and when is a sergeant a warrant officer? Is this a retro-active change going forward? And I make no argument about hewing to perfect equivalence to reality (that's why I included the "where it doesn't directly conflict the older series" caveat), RDM's already mentioned his rationale in his blog. --[[User:Fredmdbud\|Fredmdbud]] 02:54, 20 December 2007 (CST)
	:::I wasn't referring to you, but to Zeppo's implication that real-life structures should supersede on-screen statements in this case. I agree with you. Occam's Razor: She appears to be a sergeant, so even if it can be explained away, it makes most sense for her to be a sergeant. And as said, if everyone in a khaki uniform were a WO, wouldn't there be way too many? ~~I thought WOs are~~ a pretty high rank, drawn from senior NCOs. It doesn't really mesh with their numbers, or their age for that matter.		:::I wasn't referring to you, but to Zeppo's implication that real-life structures should supersede on-screen statements in this case. I agree with you. Occam's Razor: She appears to be a sergeant, so even if it can be explained away, it makes most sense for her to be a sergeant. And as said, if everyone in a khaki uniform were a WO, wouldn't there be way too many? WO is a pretty high rank, and they're drawn from senior NCOs. It doesn't really mesh with their numbers, or their age for that matter.
	:::If we can cite this somehow, it might be worth noting here and on the uniform page, but maybe we shouldn't change everything according to it. --[[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 03:03, 20 December 2007 (CST)		:::The note that "a WO can hold the rank of flight sergeant", doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The details differ greatly over time and countries, but even the British armed forces WO seems to be a rank in itself, not a position (as already noted). Also, being a Marine and a WO wouldn't be mutually exclusive. It's just a rank within a branch.
			:::If we can cite this somehow, it might be worth noting here and on the uniform page, but maybe we shouldn't change everything according to it. Maybe the production crew thinks of it this way, but even if it can be proven first hand, it just doesn't make much sense. At times, I've though there are a bit too many people in khaki uniforms for all of them to be Marines (in stationed in CIC for example), but making all of them Warrant Officers isn't a satisfactory solution to that either, given that BSG tries to stay relatively close to real-life militaries. --[[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 03:03, 20 December 2007 (CST)

Catrope: /* Sergeant or warrant officer */ adapting reference

2007-12-20T13:47:34Z

Sergeant or warrant officer: adapting reference

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	:* On the set of Battlestar Galactica, all departments (such as props, wardrobe, assistant directors) have designated the khaki uniforms as belonging to Warrant Officers, such as the one worn by Hadrian.		:* On the set of Battlestar Galactica, all departments (such as props, wardrobe, assistant directors) have designated the khaki uniforms as belonging to Warrant Officers, such as the one worn by Hadrian.

	Warrant officer is a rank, not a position, function or service branch - warrant officers form a corps within a branch, along with officers and enlisted. Given RDM's practice of largely following naval customs (and where it doesn't directly conflict the older series), sergeant rank is associated with marines. Furthermore, in the RAF, flight sergeant is considered a senior non-commissioned officer rank~~<ref>~~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Sergeant~~</ref>~~.		Warrant officer is a rank, not a position, function or service branch - warrant officers form a corps within a branch, along with officers and enlisted. Given RDM's practice of largely following naval customs (and where it doesn't directly conflict the older series), sergeant rank is associated with marines. Furthermore, in the RAF, flight sergeant is considered a senior non-commissioned officer rank [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Sergeant].

	The departmental direction regarding khaki uniforms is consistent with uniform distinction given to senior non-commissioned officers, but that is not necessarily proof that Hadrian is a warrant officer. Furthermore, there has not been any canonical mention of warrant officer ranks (at least to my knowledge).--[[User:Fredmdbud\|Fredmdbud]] 23:05, 19 December 2007 (CST)		The departmental direction regarding khaki uniforms is consistent with uniform distinction given to senior non-commissioned officers, but that is not necessarily proof that Hadrian is a warrant officer. Furthermore, there has not been any canonical mention of warrant officer ranks (at least to my knowledge).--[[User:Fredmdbud\|Fredmdbud]] 23:05, 19 December 2007 (CST)

Serenity: /* Sergeant or warrant officer */ reply to Fredmdbud

2007-12-20T09:03:25Z

Sergeant or warrant officer: reply to Fredmdbud

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	::For me, this is more a matter of consistency; when is a sergeant just a sergeant, and when is a sergeant a warrant officer? Is this a retro-active change going forward? And I make no argument about hewing to perfect equivalence to reality (that's why I included the "where it doesn't directly conflict the older series" caveat), RDM's already mentioned his rationale in his blog. --[[User:Fredmdbud\|Fredmdbud]] 02:54, 20 December 2007 (CST)		::For me, this is more a matter of consistency; when is a sergeant just a sergeant, and when is a sergeant a warrant officer? Is this a retro-active change going forward? And I make no argument about hewing to perfect equivalence to reality (that's why I included the "where it doesn't directly conflict the older series" caveat), RDM's already mentioned his rationale in his blog. --[[User:Fredmdbud\|Fredmdbud]] 02:54, 20 December 2007 (CST)
			:::I wasn't referring to you, but to Zeppo's implication that real-life structures should supersede on-screen statements in this case. I agree with you. Occam's Razor: She appears to be a sergeant, so even if it can be explained away, it makes most sense for her to be a sergeant. And as said, if everyone in a khaki uniform were a WO, wouldn't there be way too many? I thought WOs are a pretty high rank, drawn from senior NCOs. It doesn't really mesh with their numbers, or their age for that matter.
			:::If we can cite this somehow, it might be worth noting here and on the uniform page, but maybe we shouldn't change everything according to it. --[[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 03:03, 20 December 2007 (CST)

Fredmdbud: /* Sergeant or warrant officer */

2007-12-20T08:57:42Z

Sergeant or warrant officer

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	:Also, there is still the point that Tyrol's tone implies that he outranks her. The way he emphasizes her rank. Maybe it's just me. That wouldn't be the case if she were a WO. --[[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 02:39, 20 December 2007 (CST)		:Also, there is still the point that Tyrol's tone implies that he outranks her. The way he emphasizes her rank. Maybe it's just me. That wouldn't be the case if she were a WO. --[[User:Serenity\|Serenity]] 02:39, 20 December 2007 (CST)

	::For me, this is more a matter of consistency; when is a sergeant just a sergeant, and when is a sergeant a warrant officer? Is this a retro-active change going forward?--[[User:Fredmdbud\|Fredmdbud]] 02:54, 20 December 2007 (CST)		::For me, this is more a matter of consistency; when is a sergeant just a sergeant, and when is a sergeant a warrant officer? Is this a retro-active change going forward? And I make no argument about hewing to perfect equivalence to reality (that's why I included the "where it doesn't directly conflict the older series" caveat), RDM's already mentioned his rationale in his blog. --[[User:Fredmdbud\|Fredmdbud]] 02:54, 20 December 2007 (CST)